Bull Beef - Dangerous Yay or Nay

gozunda

With recent rises in the value of bull beef and a rise in the number of producers, is there a potential for a rise in the number of bull related injuries / deaths?

At home the bull was always kept securly penned up / in secure area. cant see all producers spending that kind of money making sure all fields/ yards etc are secured or handling facilities are in place

I am interested if any one has had any experiences/thoughts?

ootbitb

have to say it's not much fun looking the stock now.

mostly do it from the gate as I can't run fast.:D

Mr.Success

usually the bulls enter a shed as non aggressive calfs and are fed intensivly over the winter inside in a shed. they are slaughtered from the shed so there isnt much human contact.

pakalasa

What bull beef does do is severly reduce the number of store cattle in the country. If we're killing cattle at a much younger age, then the guy that traditionally buys the 18 month old bullock in the autumn to slaughter a year later, is going to find it harder and harder to buy cattle.

Tipp Man

pakalasa wrote: »

What bull beef does do is severly reduce the number of store cattle in the country. If we're killing cattle at a much younger age, then the guy that traditionally buys the 18 month old bullock in the autumn to slaughter a year later, is going to find it harder and harder to buy cattle.

Agreed completly - its ruining the cattle trade

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

Agreed completly - its ruining the cattle trade

For who?

If you're breeding good weinlings and able to sell them to bull beef finishers for a good price then its not ruining your cattle trade.

Its making it more difficult for beef finishers who traditionally finished cattle at 20 to 30 months.

As farmers, we need to adapt to ways of breeding and keeping cattle that will make profit. Those that find that they cannot make money at the current time need to change their system.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

For who?

If you're breeding good weinlings and able to sell them to bull beef finishers for a good price then its not ruining your cattle trade.

Its making it more difficult for beef finishers who traditionally finished cattle at 20 to 30 months.

As farmers, we need to adapt to ways of breeding and keeping cattle that will make profit. Those that find that they cannot make money at the current time need to change their system.

It's ruining it for cattle farmers who traditionally bought their cattle at 18 months old and killed them at 30 months old. In our area of South Tipp that made up 95% of the cattle sold in the marts until a few years ago. Now the supply is falling, the cattle needed just aren't there in the numbers they used to be

We are running between 150 and 200 head of cattle on a grass based system, would you like to be going into a field with 50 or more bulls in it? The management of large numbers of bulls outdoors is next to impossible, it is certainly impossible to utilise a full grass season and it incurs huge meal costs

There is more to beef farming than sucklers

It's ironic that Ireland's greatest farming asset is it ability to grow large volumes of grass cheaply but yet the beef industry (not the factories, but Teagasc, IFJ and farmers themselves) seem intent on having beef animals that require huge amounts concentrates which are increasing rapidly in cost. Our dairy farmers have moved (in the majority) towards low cost milk production but our beef farmers have gone the complete opposite route - I can't understand why myself

Muckit

Well good stuff out of you Tippman 100% agree. The whole beef industry is gone ar*e above face. Who says that younger beef is better eating quality?? The factories/Teagasc/IFJ (a crowd of pencil pushin', behind the desk 'experts' ? :rolleyes: Trying to finish cattle at a younger and younger age only drives up costs, it's going against the grain. Animals need time to grow frame to hang beef off. Where is the time allowed for this??

Going down this bull beef route is madness. Madness. We're trying to copy the likes of France or Italy, which we are never going to be. They don't have grass we do. We don't have our own grain, they do. We're fighting a loosing battle from the start. The majority of beef farmers (I include sucklers farmers in this) do not grow their own grain. Fact. Why then would it make sense to go increasing your inputs by going out and buying it in as weanling ration or for bull beef intensive finishing???

The other options being bandied about as the way to go are feeding bulls out at grass. Why the hell was the burdizzo ever invented in the first place I ask you if bulls could be managed safely and effectively at grass?? There's little enough out of them as it is without having to also go taking your life in your hands to go enter a field of bulls with a bag of meal on your back to throw along by the edge of a single strand of electric fence!!!! :eek: You might as well go playing russian roulette with a loaded gun to your head.

As regards weanling producers, I think lads should dig a big hole and bury their creep feeders. All they are are expensive calf shelters and bird feeding tables. Cows should have enough quality grass to produce milk to rear their calves. A cow should be able to rear her own calf. A Farmer at a farm walk I was at recently, described his worst bull calf as being like Elton John's son. He had no mother and was reared by two men (himself and his father.. with meal:rolleyes:) Focus on breeding. Then growing grass. And being able to manage it properly. If anything is to be creeped to calves, it sohuld be grass grass and more grass! If all sucker lads focused on this instead of trying to compete with each other to see how big they can blow up a young bulls ar*e with meal, they'd be better off.

Oh but what about the italians I hear lads scream...? If a naturally produced good quality well muscled calf was all they were offered, what choice would they have but take them or leave them. We might be better off if they left them, let an Irish lad finish them, why not? keep the money in the country and all that

reilig

To be perfectly honest with you, bulls for bull beef are not suited to feeding outdoors. The majority that are doing it are buying them at 9 months, feeding them indoors and finishing them at 14 to 16 months. Its quite a safe operation, you have them penned all the time.

To be honest with you, I think this new wave of bull beef finishers and live bull beef exporters is the best thing to happen to beef farming in this country for a long time.

I do feel sorry for the farmers who traditionally bought store cattle for finishing, but as I said in the last post, its time to change and move with the times - choose another enterprise - everyone doesn't have to do bull beef.
I don't feel sorry for the factories. For the last 30 years they controlled the price for bothe me (the seller) and you (the buyer) of this age group of cattle by ultimately controlling what they paid to you for the finished animal. They were making 150% margins, while you only broke even, and I made a loss and lived off my SFP. This change is for the better. If the factories don't want to pay a good price for your bull beef, there is always the exporter who will give you a fair price for your animal and who in turn will be able to turn a profit on your animal on the continent.

The only thing that this is ruining is the factories and the way that they control meat prices in order to generate huge profits for themselves.

As a farmer, you still have the land, and the money that you were going to buy store cattle with this autumn. You haven't lost anything, so choose investing into something for your land that you're happy working with and that won't play into the hands of the factories!!

Tipp Man wrote: »

It's ruining it for cattle farmers who traditionally bought their cattle at 18 months old and killed them at 30 months old. In our area of South Tipp that made up 95% of the cattle sold in the marts until a few years ago. Now the supply is falling, the cattle needed just aren't there in the numbers they used to be

We are running between 150 and 200 head of cattle on a grass based system, would you like to be going into a field with 50 or more bulls in it? The management of large numbers of bulls outdoors is next to impossible, it is certainly impossible to utilise a full grass season and it incurs huge meal costs

There is more to beef farming than sucklers

It's ironic that Ireland's greatest farming asset is it ability to grow large volumes of grass cheaply but yet the beef industry (not the factories, but Teagasc, IFJ and farmers themselves) seem intent on having beef animals that require huge amounts concentrates which are increasing rapidly in cost. Our dairy farmers have moved (in the majority) towards low cost milk production but our beef farmers have gone the complete opposite route - I can't understand why myself

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

The whole beef industry is gone ar*e above face.

For who? The people that play into the hands of the factory?

A new market has opened up which allows farmers to get better prices for their weinlings and better sale prices for their finished (young) cattle.

The factories have controlled beef prices in this country for long enough. Larry Goodman's bank vaults are overflowing because the "smart" irish farmer accepted his prices for long enough and produced the type of cattle that Larry wanted for the last 30 years. Larry didn't care if you only broke even or if you made a loss. but if he saw you making a profit, he knew that he was paying too much to you and he cut the prices.

Its time for new thinking lads. If the old ways aren't working, change them!!!

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

The majority that are doing it are buying them at 9 months, feeding them indoors and finishing them at 14 to 16 months.

And they're making a mint doing it :rolleyes: millionaires the lot of them

pakalasa

Never thought I'd see the day, but it's the small part time suckler farmer in the west of Ireland that's the big winner in all this. Maybe the larger guy who traditionally finished cattle off grass will just have to change with the times.
I saw march born, 380Kg limousin weanlings selling for 880 yoyos at the w'end. Long may it continue.:D

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

And they're making a mint doing it :rolleyes: millionaires the lot of them

Who said that???

The guys buying the 18 month old bullocks for finishing aren't making a mint and they're making less now because they can't afford to buy them.

We used to have an old teacher say "If you do the same thing over and over, you're going to get the same results".

I think its great that farmers are keeping bull beef. Its something different and it offers an alternative outlet for selling the animal (exporters) if the irish meat factories aren't paying enough.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

To be perfectly honest with you, bulls for bull beef are not suited to feeding outdoors. The majority that are doing it are buying them at 9 months, feeding them indoors and finishing them at 14 to 16 months. Its quite a safe operation, you have them penned all the time.

To be honest with you, I think this new wave of bull beef finishers and live bull beef exporters is the best thing to happen to beef farming in this country for a long time.

I do feel sorry for the farmers who traditionally bought store cattle for finishing, but as I said in the last post, its time to change and move with the times - choose another enterprise - everyone doesn't have to do bull beef.
I don't feel sorry for the factories. For the last 30 years they controlled the price for bothe me (the seller) and you (the buyer) of this age group of cattle by ultimately controlling what they paid to you for the finished animal. They were making 150% margins, while you only broke even, and I made a loss and lived off my SFP. This change is for the better. If the factories don't want to pay a good price for your bull beef, there is always the exporter who will give you a fair price for your animal and who in turn will be able to turn a profit on your animal on the continent.

The only thing that this is ruining is the factories and the way that they control meat prices in order to generate huge profits for themselves.

As a farmer, you still have the land, and the money that you were going to buy store cattle with this autumn. You haven't lost anything, so choose investing into something for your land that you're happy working with and that won't play into the hands of the factories!!

Well finishing them indoors is relatively safe but it is a high cost system which ignores Irish farmers abilty to grow large volumes of grass cheaply, I think it was John Shirley that touched on this in the Indo a few weeks ago and he is completly right. We are not making use of our best asset grass.

I'm also a little confused by the suckler farmers - up until very recently it was all over the journal how many suckler farmers were losing money and the only thing keeping them going was the SFP, the vast majority of them it seemed. Now suddenly you are saying that cattle finishers need to change their system (so either to sucklers or bull beef)??

You know its funny that the factories have struck an agreement to pay 40 cent a kilo more for Angus carcas - what does that say, it means that actually the markets for Irish cattle are for Angus (or Hereford) style cattle - and guess what AA and HD are the 2 breeds of cattle that suit a grass based system. Yet Suckler farmers have completly turned their back on them and gone down the Continental route which is a high input system. The continentals are fine animals but they are high cost animals. The live export market is great but lets be honest the huge bulk of Irish beef sold abroad is still sold dead

Tipp Man

Muckit wrote: »

Well good stuff out of you Tippman 100% agree. The whole beef industry is gone ar*e above face. Who says that younger beef is better eating quality?? The factories/Teagasc/IFJ (a crowd of pencil pushin', behind the desk 'experts' ? :rolleyes: Trying to finish cattle at a younger and younger age only drives up costs, it's going against the grain. Animals need time to grow frame to hang beef off. Where is the time allowed for this??

Going down this bull beef route is madness. Madness. We're trying to copy the likes of France or Italy, which we are never going to be. They don't have grass we do. We don't have our own grain, they do. We're fighting a loosing battle from the start. The majority of beef farmers (I include sucklers farmers in this) do not grow their own grain. Fact. Why then would it make sense to go increasing your inputs by going out and buying it in as weanling ration or for bull beef intensive finishing???

The other options being bandied about as the way to go are feeding bulls out at grass. Why the hell was the burdizzo ever invented in the first place I ask you if bulls could be managed safely and effectively at grass?? There's little enough out of them as it is without having to also go taking your life in your hands to go enter a field of bulls with a bag of meal on your back to throw along by the edge of a single strand of electric fence!!!! :eek: You might as well go playing russian roulette with a loaded gun to your head.

As regards weanling producers, I think lads should dig a big hole and bury their creep feeders. All they are are expensive calf shelters and bird feeding tables. Cows should have enough quality grass to produce milk to rear their calves. A cow should be able to rear her own calf. A Farmer at a farm walk I was at recently, described his worst bull calf as being like Elton John's son. He had no mother and was reared by two men (himself and his father.. with meal:rolleyes:) Focus on breeding. Then growing grass. And being able to manage it properly. If anything is to be creeped to calves, it sohuld be grass grass and more grass! If all sucker lads focused on this instead of trying to compete with each other to see how big they can blow up a young bulls ar*e with meal, they'd be better off.

Oh but what about the italians I hear lads scream...? If a naturally produced good quality well muscled calf was all they were offered, what choice would they have but take them or leave them. We might be better off if they left them, let an Irish lad finish them, why not? keep the money in the country and all that

Hard to argue with any of that

Muckit

Perhaps you are right. Maybe there are only two options in beef now. Sucklers or beef finishing

flatout11

Muckit wrote: »

Well good stuff out of you Tippman 100% agree. The whole beef industry is gone ar*e above face. Who says that younger beef is better eating quality?? The factories/Teagasc/IFJ (a crowd of pencil pushin', behind the desk 'experts' ? :rolleyes: Trying to finish cattle at a younger and younger age only drives up costs, it's going against the grain. Animals need time to grow frame to hang beef off. Where is the time allowed for this??

as cattle or indeed any other species age the ammount of connective tissue in the muscle increases hence the toughness, now what some of us percieve as tender mature beef can be as a result of increased inter/intra muscular fat (juiciness) but kill a 16 month old vs a 18 mth old at a similar fat cover .... no comparision
i still havent seen grass fed beef....... even a 30 mth system is dependant on i t
now add in the costs of a extra year of housing costs and grass........
it doesnt grow for free....
at the end of the day producing beef in ireland is about scale and through put, bulls offer a quicker in and out system at a higher stocking rate
its a game of numbers

F.D

I Agree with the last post it is about pushing through higher numbers of stock in a shorter time frame which leads to a bigger turnover, and more income but not necessarly more margin, at the end of the day if your feeding a lot more meal instead of the factory creaming the profit as rellig is right in saying its the grain merchant creaming it from the feed bills.
there has to be a way of finding a happy medium maybe finishing bulls with more home grown forage crops (wholecrop/Maize/Beet) mixed with a lesser amount of meal

Tipp Man

flatout11 wrote: »

as cattle or indeed any other species age the ammount of connective tissue in the muscle increases hence the toughness, now what some of us percieve as tender mature beef can be as a result of increased inter/intra muscular fat (juiciness) but kill a 16 month old vs a 18 mth old at a similar fat cover .... no comparision
i still havent seen grass fed beef....... even a 30 mth system is dependant on i t
now add in the costs of a extra year of housing costs and grass........
it doesnt grow for free....
at the end of the day producing beef in ireland is about scale and through put, bulls offer a quicker in and out system at a higher stocking rate
its a game of numbers

Bulls offer a higher cost system with low margins so you need the higher numbers - more work for less money

With the right breed of cattle you would have no problem finishing stock on grass - that means good quality Hereford, Angus (I'd include Lims as well as they in my opinion are by far the best continental for Ireland)

With regards to the meat, good quality AA and HD is better than continental - far better marbled which gives it a far better taste. Thats the reason why Argentinian beef has such a worldwide reputation because that's the animal and system they are using

The factories are even guiding us down this route - they are offering premium for AA and HD and are quite clear that they don't want huge 40kg+ carcase which is what continental cattle give you (and which you need because you've pumped a ton of nuts into them at a huge cost)

reilig

flatout11 wrote: »

now add in the costs of a extra year of housing costs and grass........
it doesnt grow for free....
at the end of the day producing beef in ireland is about scale and through put, bulls offer a quicker in and out system at a higher stocking rate
its a game of numbers

That's the point that I was trying to make too.

Tipp Man, you're talking about our greatest asset - Grass. Agree totally.
But the bull's for the bull beef will be reared on grass from calf to 9 or 10 months. they are fed indoors on whole crop or silage and meal for 4 months and then slaughtered.

I know guys that buy store cattle at 18 months. Keep them for a full winter and a summer and then sell them in Autumn - just before they buy the next lot. its a high cost system - they keep an animal for 12 months, feed it grass, silage and meal (Maybe not as much as an animal for bull beef, but don't tell me that you don't feed meal to the animal for a few weeks before slaughter to try to put a bit of extra condition on him). Testing fees, Vet fees, dosing, cost of slurry, water charges etc. etc. It all adds up when you keep the animal for year 2.

Do you really believe that you make more when you slaughter an animal at 14 months and get €1200 for it than when you slaughter an animal at 25 months and get €1500 for it???

What about the meat that we eat?

How many people buy meat from their local butcher? Do you know what they're selling? I do. I know several butchers. There are 4 butchers in our family. They don't want any animal over 18 months to sell from their meat counter. Their preferred animal is a continental cross angus - (Black limousin). They like them with a bit of fat and marl.

What happens to the 24 month old store cattle?
they don't end up on the butcher's counter anyway. They have a darker meat which isn't as pleasing to the eye. They are processed for food all the same - and perhaps they taste better. Much of it is exported.

What happens to the bull beef?

A lot of it is slaughtered and exported. Its prime beef and commands a premium price. Not very much of it is sold in ireland because its too expensive. Some of our bull beef is live exported too.

So we have several choices - do we rear cattle for the 4 million irish population, or do we concentrate on rearing cattle that the rest of the world wants?

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

Bulls offer a higher cost system with low margins so you need the higher numbers - more work for less money

I don't agree. I've finished bull beef in the past and I have finished store cattle. While a bull may have a higher feed cost. The length of time that you have to keep him definitely allows more profit to be made than an animal that has to be kept to 24 months. Is it not more work to feed an animal for 24 months than feed an animal for 14 months?????

Store cattle that are finished on grass only usualy need to be kept until they are closer to 30 months. The costs associated with this are enormous. Price fluctuations over 30 months can often see you receiving less for a 30 months old animal than you paid for the animal at 9 months. Grass finished animal don't grade as well in factories either.

The Angus producer group that I used to be involved in saw the meat factory pay a premium for Angus bulls. While it is quite possible to finish an Angus on grass, you'll need 24+ months to do it. The factory wouldn't pay a premium for any animal over 24 months. In short, they wanted animals that were finished on a diet of grain + Silage.

flatout11

Tipp Man wrote: »

Bulls offer a higher cost system with low margins so you need the higher numbers - more work for less money

With the right breed of cattle you would have no problem finishing stock on grass - that means good quality Hereford, Angus (I'd include Lims as well as they in my opinion are by far the best continental for Ireland)

With regards to the meat, good quality AA and HD is better than continental - far better marbled which gives it a far better taste. Thats the reason why Argentinian beef has such a worldwide reputation because that's the animal and system they are using
QUOTE]

re Argentinian beef ........... its treated with enzymes to improve the tenderistation process ......
i always find this crap about marbleing funny ..... do you rellly think the housewife spends that long looking at a piece of steak to determine its marbling content??? i think not and before you mention butchers, most of them buy the sides of beef which is supplied from factorys (mostly contential) i thought (perhaps wrongly) the consumer frowned on fatty meat nowadays ??


i remember reading a piece on beef taste panel work done in the north a few years ago, meat from different breeds were compared by a independant taste panel do you know what canee out on top..... a holstien fr (renowned for their marbeling:rolleyes:)
the aa scheme is a well promoted venture that sells on PR and for its part fair play to them - hereford prime is lagging behind so it is an option for some not all!!

in relation to the high grain costs you can substitute some of the diet with either high DMD silage or maize and high DMD silage without a major drop in performance (extra work though), depending on concentrate price in a given year this can potientially reduce feed costs although it will relitive to a ad lib diet increase the duration of the feeding period to achieve the same carcass weight.

bob charles

Have finished large numbers of bulls for the last 20 yrs, back in the days when people used to come and look in over the gate in amazement at a field of bulls. oh how times change. Up to about 8 yrs ago it was nearly all bulls but nowadays I would rarely have little or no bulls. Lots of people in a similar position to myself couldnt make head nor tail on how guys are able to do it and get results nowadays, it was grand when feed was costing sub 100 a ton.

we are just too busy nowadays to have a large number of bulls plus irrespestive of what everyone says they are costing way too much to finish. They need much more concentrate in their diets and other routes as mentioned earlier just dont get enough MJ into their bellies. I have played with cheap and dear products for finishing even including fats and oils and still didnt get the results. I hope for all finishing bulls that a glut doesnt come on the market as they will be pulled the fastest

flatout11

bob charles wrote: »

Have finished large numbers of bulls for the last 20 yrs, back in the days when people used to come and look in over the gate in amazement at a field of bulls. oh how times change.

its a change about alright, for the weanling producer it has provided an exctra outlet, i was talking to a lad at the mart recently and it came up about how many young bulls were being sold to donegal, just adding up there are several feedlots up there putting thousands through their hands each year, wilsons etc... the costs - cash flow involved is staggering when you think about it

reilig

flatout11 wrote: »

its a change about alright, for the weanling producer it has provided an exctra outlet, i was talking to a lad at the mart recently and it came up about how many young bulls were being sold to donegal, just adding up there are several feedlots up there putting thousands through their hands each year, wilsons etc... the costs - cash flow involved is staggering when you think about it

A lot of them are being fed on potatoes!!!! Not Joking.

Tipp Man

bob charles wrote: »

Have finished large numbers of bulls for the last 20 yrs, back in the days when people used to come and look in over the gate in amazement at a field of bulls. oh how times change. Up to about 8 yrs ago it was nearly all bulls but nowadays I would rarely have little or no bulls. Lots of people in a similar position to myself couldnt make head nor tail on how guys are able to do it and get results nowadays, it was grand when feed was costing sub 100 a ton.

we are just too busy nowadays to have a large number of bulls plus irrespestive of what everyone says they are costing way too much to finish. They need much more concentrate in their diets and other routes as mentioned earlier just dont get enough MJ into their bellies. I have played with cheap and dear products for finishing even including fats and oils and still didnt get the results. I hope for all finishing bulls that a glut doesnt come on the market as they will be pulled the fastest

Well this is it in a nutshell isn't it

Too much work for little or no return, costs are way too high

flatout11

reilig wrote: »

A lot of them are being fed on potatoes!!!! Not Joking.

well its the country for it, some great land in east donegal

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

That's the point that I was trying to make too.

Tipp Man, you're talking about our greatest asset - Grass. Agree totally.
But the bull's for the bull beef will be reared on grass from calf to 9 or 10 months. they are fed indoors on whole crop or silage and meal for 4 months and then slaughtered.

I know guys that buy store cattle at 18 months. Keep them for a full winter and a summer and then sell them in Autumn - just before they buy the next lot. its a high cost system - they keep an animal for 12 months, feed it grass, silage and meal (Maybe not as much as an animal for bull beef, but don't tell me that you don't feed meal to the animal for a few weeks before slaughter to try to put a bit of extra condition on him). Testing fees, Vet fees, dosing, cost of slurry, water charges etc. etc. It all adds up when you keep the animal for year 2.

Do you really believe that you make more when you slaughter an animal at 14 months and get €1200 for it than when you slaughter an animal at 25 months and get €1500 for it???

What about the meat that we eat?

How many people buy meat from their local butcher? Do you know what they're selling? I do. I know several butchers. There are 4 butchers in our family. They don't want any animal over 18 months to sell from their meat counter. Their preferred animal is a continental cross angus - (Black limousin). They like them with a bit of fat and marl.

What happens to the 24 month old store cattle?
they don't end up on the butcher's counter anyway. They have a darker meat which isn't as pleasing to the eye. They are processed for food all the same - and perhaps they taste better. Much of it is exported.

What happens to the bull beef?

A lot of it is slaughtered and exported. Its prime beef and commands a premium price. Not very much of it is sold in ireland because its too expensive. Some of our bull beef is live exported too.

So we have several choices - do we rear cattle for the 4 million irish population, or do we concentrate on rearing cattle that the rest of the world wants?

I have butchers in my family also and they want Angus, Hereford (and maybe Lims but only if they can't get AA or HD) heifers. The thing is we are not talking about the Irish market here we are talking about the export market. We have more than enough of what the irish market wants and its so small that it will always be filled with what it wants.

You say continental bull beef is what the rest of the world wants - well thats not the case for Germany for instance where they prefer AA of Hereford carcase. The live export route just re-opened up with Egypt won't be taking the continentals either, or the new Turkey deal or our biggest market by far in Britain. The fact is that the majority of continental bulls go to Italy or Spain. The bull beef markets are still scarce which is why you have no trouble rocking up to the factory with a bullock but you can be told your not wanted if you turn up with bulls

Tipp Man

flatout11 wrote: »

Tipp Man wrote: »

Bulls offer a higher cost system with low margins so you need the higher numbers - more work for less money

With the right breed of cattle you would have no problem finishing stock on grass - that means good quality Hereford, Angus (I'd include Lims as well as they in my opinion are by far the best continental for Ireland)

With regards to the meat, good quality AA and HD is better than continental - far better marbled which gives it a far better taste. Thats the reason why Argentinian beef has such a worldwide reputation because that's the animal and system they are using
QUOTE]

re Argentinian beef ........... its treated with enzymes to improve the tenderistation process ......
i always find this crap about marbleing funny ..... do you rellly think the housewife spends that long looking at a piece of steak to determine its marbling content??? i think not and before you mention butchers, most of them buy the sides of beef which is supplied from factorys (mostly contential) i thought (perhaps wrongly) the consumer frowned on fatty meat nowadays ??


i remember reading a piece on beef taste panel work done in the north a few years ago, meat from different breeds were compared by a independant taste panel do you know what canee out on top..... a holstien fr (renowned for their marbeling:rolleyes:)
the aa scheme is a well promoted venture that sells on PR and for its part fair play to them - hereford prime is lagging behind so it is an option for some not all!!

in relation to the high grain costs you can substitute some of the diet with either high DMD silage or maize and high DMD silage without a major drop in performance (extra work though), depending on concentrate price in a given year this can potientially reduce feed costs although it will relitive to a ad lib diet increase the duration of the feeding period to achieve the same carcass weight.

And how much exactly does it cost to grow Maize, wholecrop etc? (I'm not doubting the feed value)

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

I have butchers in my family also and they want Angus, Hereford (and maybe Lims but only if they can't get AA or HD) heifers. The thing is we are not talking about the Irish market here we are talking about the export market. We have more than enough of what the irish market wants and its so small that it will always be filled with what it wants.

You say continental bull beef is what the rest of the world wants - well thats not the case for Germany for instance where they prefer AA of Hereford carcase. The live export route just re-opened up with Egypt won't be taking the continentals either, or the new Turkey deal or our biggest market by far in Britain. The fact is that the majority of continental bulls go to Italy or Spain. The bull beef markets are still scarce which is why you have no trouble rocking up to the factory with a bullock but you can be told your not wanted if you turn up with bulls

Ahem . .

Both and Egypt and Turkey have not set restrictions on the breed of cattle that they will accept. However, they have set restrictions on animals over 26 months of age and will accept no animal over 30 months. They will pay a premium for animals under 20 months. The most important thing to them is that the meat is fresh.

Continental beef exports to the uk outnumber AA and Hereford by 3 to 1. If there was a demand for it, we'd be producing it.

Less than 1000 ton of irish beef (out of 500,000+ ton) was exported to Germany in 2010.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

I don't agree. I've finished bull beef in the past and I have finished store cattle. While a bull may have a higher feed cost. The length of time that you have to keep him definitely allows more profit to be made than an animal that has to be kept to 24 months. Is it not more work to feed an animal for 24 months than feed an animal for 14 months.

Well its not more work because the bullock is out for 9 months filling his own belly

reilig wrote: »

Store cattle that are finished on grass only usualy need to be kept until they are closer to 30 months. The costs associated with this are enormous. Price fluctuations over 30 months can often see you receiving less for a 30 months old animal than you paid for the animal at 9 months. Grass finished animal don't grade as well in factories either. .

I have never heard of an animal worth less at 30 months than at 9 months assuming a good control on costs and paying a sumway sensible purchase price. Regarding the grading - no doubt about it the continentals need nuts to grade - not so the AA, HD. It'd be very rare that these wouldn't be finished at 30 months without nuts. We will be sending cattle to the factory in the next few weeks and they have finished just right on grass alone

reilig wrote: »

The Angus producer group that I used to be involved in saw the meat factory pay a premium for Angus bulls. While it is quite possible to finish an Angus on grass, you'll need 24+ months to do it. The factory wouldn't pay a premium for any animal over 24 months. In short, they wanted animals that were finished on a diet of grain + Silage.

Haven't heard of the 24 months rule - the certified angus needs the animal slaughtered by 30 months to get the premium afaik and I believe the new scheme is the same

reilig

Horses for courses methinks.

It certainly is different in this part of the country.

Currently I really hope that you don't get cheap cattle to buy now or in the future (No Offence meant) because this will mean that weinling prices have crashed and the suckler farmer will be cut to the bone again.

I think that if factories paid more money for your animals then you would have no complaints about paying current prices for weinlings????

Perhaps its the meat factories that have caused the beef industry to go "arse over face" by paying poor prices for your animals as opposed to the suckler farmers who got sustainable prices for their animals and the bull beef producers who see an opportunity to turn a profit and current cattle price levels ???

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well its not more work because the bullock is out for 9 months filling his own belly



I have never heard of an animal worth less at 30 months than at 9 months assuming a good control on costs and paying a sumway sensible purchase price. Regarding the grading - no doubt about it the continentals need nuts to grade - not so the AA, HD. It'd be very rare that these wouldn't be finished at 30 months without nuts. We will be sending cattle to the factory in the next few weeks and they have finished just right on grass alone



Haven't heard of the 24 months rule - the certified angus needs the animal slaughtered by 30 months to get the premium afaik and I believe the new scheme is the same

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

Ahem . .

Both and Egypt and Turkey have not set restrictions on the breed of cattle that they will accept. However, they have set restrictions on animals over 26 months of age and will accept no animal over 30 months. They will pay a premium for animals under 20 months. The most important thing to them is that the meat is fresh.

Continental beef exports to the uk outnumber AA and Hereford by 3 to 1. If there was a demand for it, we'd be producing it.

Less than 1000 ton of irish beef (out of 500,000+ ton) was exported to Germany in 2010.

The 20 month old cattle going to Egypt will be live cattle and they are talking about 2 Euro a kilo so i can't see to many continentals going down that route especially seen as though the grade requirements will be O+ it seems

Well the Germany stat only proves that we are not producing the style of beef they want. Back in 1997 we were exporting 50,000 tons to Germany, to put that in perspective in 2010 we exported 54,000 tons to France, or 10% of current exports. The German market is as big as the Italian market so why not focus on it as well?? Germany import some 400,000 tons of beef annually and Ireland only supplied about 7,000 tons (not 1,000 tons) of that. It is a huge, rich market on our doorstep

Also do you have a link for the UK continental beef exports being 3 times higher than AA and Hereford? I think it would be impossible for them to outnumber AA and Hereford by 3 to 1 seen as though AA has the second highest number of animals in Ireland and a lot of the continentals are destined for Europe

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

Horses for courses methinks.

It certainly is different in this part of the country.

Currently I really hope that you don't get cheap cattle to buy now or in the future (No Offence meant) because this will mean that weinling prices have crashed and the suckler farmer will be cut to the bone again.

I think that if factories paid more money for your animals then you would have no complaints about paying current prices for weinlings????

Perhaps its the meat factories that have caused the beef industry to go "arse over face" by paying poor prices for your animals as opposed to the suckler farmers who got sustainable prices for their animals and the bull beef producers who see an opportunity to turn a profit and current cattle price levels ???

You won't see me argue with you about the prices the factories have been paying

blue5000

pakalasa wrote: »

What bull beef does do is severly reduce the number of store cattle in the country. If we're killing cattle at a much younger age, then the guy that traditionally buys the 18 month old bullock in the autumn to slaughter a year later, is going to find it harder and harder to buy cattle.

BULLSH1T,

Bull beef is way more efficient at converting feed into beef. Most of those guys buying 18month bullocks are throwing their sfp money at larry.

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

The 20 month old cattle going to Egypt will be live cattle and they are talking about 2 Euro a kilo so i can't see to many continentals going down that route especially seen as though the grade requirements will be O+ it seems

€2 per Kg is Bull!

Egypt are already buying more expensive beef than Irish beef - this is why they want to source Irish Beef. They are paying live weights of up to €4 per KG for cattle in Spain. I was on a Spanish feedlot about a month ago and everything was destined for Egypt. Spain then buy cheaper Irish cattle for their own consumption - so the lot owner told us.

Egypt want to secure Irish supplies at these prices too because they believe that the Central European supplies will only increase in price in the coming years because of a scarcity of cattle. Much of this cattle scarcity comes from fewer South american meat imports. Their production is well down because they find it more profitable to grow crops for biofuels (mostly ethanol) than to keep cattle on the land.

I don't have a link to the exports to the uk, however, I did read it in a Teagasc circular magazine in about March 2011.

AA may have the second highest number of beef animals in ireland but aren't 70% of the total beef animals Charolais?? (there was an article in the IFJ about this in June)

30% of the market share is divided among AA and all of the other breeds.
Much of our AA meat is marketed for irish supermarkets, one or 2 of the uk supermarkets and I think they have a contract with McDonalds in France, Germany, Spain and belgium?

pakalasa

blue5000 wrote: »

BULLSH1T,

Bull beef is way more efficient at converting feed into beef. Most of those guys buying 18month bullocks are throwing their sfp money at larry.

Where did I say it was less efficient?

Muckit

Jaysus it's like being in the middle of a pen of bulls here!

blue5000

pakalasa wrote: »

Where did I say it was less efficient?

Having a bullock hanging around for an extra year, housing him, dosing him, and tb testing him is less efficient than slaughtering a bull at 14-16 months. All the fixed costs are going to be higher.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

€2 per Kg is Bull!

Egypt are already buying more expensive beef than Irish beef - this is why they want to source Irish Beef. They are paying live weights of up to €4 per KG for cattle in Spain. I was on a Spanish feedlot about a month ago and everything was destined for Egypt. Spain then buy cheaper Irish cattle for their own consumption - so the lot owner told us.

Egypt want to secure Irish supplies at these prices too because they believe that the Central European supplies will only increase in price in the coming years because of a scarcity of cattle. Much of this cattle scarcity comes from fewer South american meat imports. Their production is well down because they find it more profitable to grow crops for biofuels (mostly ethanol) than to keep cattle on the land.

I don't have a link to the exports to the uk, however, I did read it in a Teagasc circular magazine in about March 2011.

AA may have the second highest number of beef animals in ireland but aren't 70% of the total beef animals Charolais?? (there was an article in the IFJ about this in June)

30% of the market share is divided among AA and all of the other breeds.
Much of our AA meat is marketed for irish supermarkets, one or 2 of the uk supermarkets and I think they have a contract with McDonalds in France, Germany, Spain and belgium?

I don't know for definite about the price for the Egypt market but the journal clearly states that the minimum grades will be O+ and €2 a kilo for live cattle in the 20 month age bracket. We'll have to see how it pans out i suppose but i personally would be surprised if they were paying top prices

The south american fall in exports is the reason all beef is getting more expensive and is the reason that beef will stay expensive. Beef is going to be expense for quite a few years, the problem farmers face is being able to keep a larger proportion of the higher price and ensure that Larry Goodman or the grain merchants aren't the ones profiting from it

Regarding the breeds AA are the second most common in Ireland, second to Hols/Freis, i.e the dairy herd. Remember that a lot of dairy herds use a AA sweeper bull and/or for the heifers - this is what is bulking up their numbers. Although this will have fallen in the last few years as the dairy herd tries to increase its numbers

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

BULLSH1T,

Bull beef is way more efficient at converting feed into beef. Most of those guys buying 18month bullocks are throwing their sfp money at larry.

Bulls are more efficient at food conversion - that doesn't mean they are more profitable - especially with the price of corn. It is likely the price of corn will remain high in the medium term so the dependancy of bull beef on the price of corn is a major negative factor in my opinion (although this may be partly ofset by higher beef prices)

Tipp Man

Muckit wrote: »

Jaysus it's like being in the middle of a pen of bulls here!

A good healthy debate is all:D

Tipp Man

Just out of curiousity how many of you are actually bull beef finishers as opposed to selling weanlings?? (I'm not talking about finishing a couple of late calves or whatever, I mean as your main enterprise)

Muckit

Tipp Man wrote: »

A good healthy debate is all:D

Ah nothing like it! Well I suppose the bull beef side is only one side. What about heifers? Perhaps it deserves a separate tread :rolleyes:

blue5000

Tipp Man wrote: »

Bulls are more efficient at food conversion - that doesn't mean they are more profitable - especially with the price of corn. It is likely the price of corn will remain high in the medium term so the dependancy of bull beef on the price of corn is a major negative factor in my opinion (although this may be partly ofset by higher beef prices)

Agreed, no matter what the beef system you're doing(bulls/bullocks) at present the biggest loser is the guy taking the beast to slaughter. Grain prices are 200e+ at the moment. How do you graze bulls at grass? That, I think is what the OP was asking. We don't all have a 'ranch' big enough to graze cattle for 3 summers and produce enough to live on.

blue5000

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just out of curiousity how many of you are actually bull beef finishers as opposed to selling weanlings??QUOTE]

All weanlings with me, sold weaned at about 8-12 months. Was doing bull beef up until '06 from early 90's.

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just out of curiousity how many of you are actually bull beef finishers as opposed to selling weanlings?? (I'm not talking about finishing a couple of late calves or whatever, I mean as your main enterprise)

Main enterprise is suckling. Selling weinlings at 9 - 12 months.

Used to be finishing our calves for the factory at 20 months (AA Scheme) but found it unprofitable. Its best to sell the weinlings on to some other poor unfortunate and let them make the loss at the factory (that's a joke).

Have a herd of 60. 20 are Black limousin cows and use all BB on them.
The other 40 are Limousin or CHX. Have only 21 weinlings sold. They were ~ 10 months old, averaged 390kg and I got an average price of €890 for them (bulls and heifers) - all were off CH stock bull. Most bulls were bought for export to Spain - (I know the buyer). Put another 150kg on their backs and they are ready for slaughter. 150kg will add €400 to their value here or up to €700 to their value in Spain.

With margins like that, why would any finisher want to keep an animal until he's 18 or 24 months?

F.D

Well back to the original question of safety, so if you are doing bull beef it has to be calf born early in spring out for summer, then finished over winter in sheds? so approx 14 months of age
but you see some that have contracts to finish them before 18 months, which means grazing them for part of the second summer, this surley has to be the most dangerous part of the operation where you are letting them back out, i know of people around that are doing it and have serious fencing done to keep them but is it worth the extra hassle to do this or is there any cost saving or extra weight gain to doing this.

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

Agreed, no matter what the beef system you're doing(bulls/bullocks) at present the biggest loser is the guy taking the beast to slaughter. Grain prices are 200e+ at the moment. How do you graze bulls at grass? That, I think is what the OP was asking. We don't all have a 'ranch' big enough to graze cattle for 3 summers and produce enough to live on.

There are very few places in Ireland that have ranches to do ranching style farming, however that doesn't mean that you can't finish cattle with good grassland management and less reliance on meal and/or other expensive feeds.

There is no doubt that keeping the bullock for the second winter is a major pain and a major expense and seriously takes away from profitability, which is why as Muckit mentioned above heifer finishing is far more profitable as you can get them gone off grass at 18 months.

I just think that we are marketing Irish beef as clean grass fed beef - that seems to be the angle and pictures of cattle at grass in the ads seem to back that up - and if we want to maintain our reputation then a large proportion of our beef has to come from grass.

flatout11

Tipp Man wrote: »

I just think that we are marketing Irish beef as clean grass fed beef - that seems to be the angle and pictures of cattle at grass in the ads seem to back that up - and if we want to maintain our reputation then a large proportion of our beef has to come from grass.

yea sounds good.... reality is that line is a crock of ****e that we have got away with......... the diet of all beef cattle has a large 'lifetime' grass input even the ad lib bulls ......
anyway who says grass fed beef is any better if anything thare are drawbacks from a presentation piont of view - meat is darker and fat is more yellowish..........

blue5000

flatout11 wrote: »

anyway who says grass fed beef is any better if anything thare are drawbacks from a presentation piont of view - meat is darker and fat is more yellowish..........

grass fed beef supposed to lower cholersterol levels, American research, all the beef farmers over there are complaining about expensive corn because of biofuel........Lads we really should be laughing all the way to the bank:mad:

http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-natural-beef.asp