O'Gara or Sexton - Ireland V Italy

hypermuse

For such an important game which we really have to win..

Who do you field??

Almaviva

Sexton.

Kidney will also choose Sexton. O'Gara starting on the B team today shows that a B team player is what he is and there is nothing he can really do to change Kidneys mind anymore. He will only start again in a real game if Sexton is injured, Sexton were to have a real drop in form (no sign of that at the moment), or Kidney takes leave of his senses and plays Sexton in the centre. O'Gara knows this also, hence the bit of petulant frustrations and PR recant on the retirement issue during the week.
However, am a big O'Gara fan and we are fortunate to have him on the bench. He probably will get some game time against Italy from it.

bleg

Both if darcy is injured!

Either way both deserve and will get some time.

DarkJager

O'Gara and for the subsequent matches as well. We're getting to the stage where every single point is crucial and we need a kicker with consistency. Sexton is just more miss than hit at the moment and thats a liability we don't need.

Risteard

Almaviva wrote: »

Sexton.

Kidney will also choose Sexton. O'Gara starting on the B team today shows that a B team player is what he is and there is nothing he can really do to change Kidneys mind anymore. He will only start again in a real game if Sexton is injured, Sexton were to have a real drop in form (no sign of that at the moment), or Kidney takes leave of his senses and plays Sexton in the centre. O'Gara knows this also, hence the bit of petulant frustrations and PR recant on the retirement issue during the week.
However, am a big O'Gara fan and we are fortunate to have him on the bench. He probably will get some game time against Italy from it.

His kicking is pretty worrying tbh. and we'll need that against Italy.

I'm not sure what's wrong as he was kicking 90+% in the HC I think, and they were pressure kicks as well. But he's not on form with the boot whereas O'Gara is.

hypermuse

Almaviva wrote: »

Sexton.

Kidney will also choose Sexton. O'Gara starting on the B team today shows that a B team player is what he is and there is nothing he can really do to change Kidneys mind anymore. He will only start again in a real game if Sexton is injured, Sexton were to have a real drop in form (no sign of that at the moment), or Kidney takes leave of his senses and plays Sexton in the centre. O'Gara knows this also, hence the bit of petulant frustrations and PR recant on the retirement issue during the week.
However, am a big O'Gara fan and we are fortunate to have him on the bench. He probably will get some game time against Italy from it.

Granted the challenge of Russia was not exactly immense!!
Sexton is certainly not on form at the mo! His kicking is poor..

ROG has better kicking boots from the ground and out a hand! His ability to find the touchline with distance is incredible!!


But if you leave Sexton on the bench then its gonna absolutely destroy his confidence! Cant have that either!

Its a conundrum if you ask me! I think O'Gara is a better pick but for longevity, Kidney should probably Sexton..

GerM

It's a WC. Screw longevity. If ROG is the better option in DK's mind, he should start. I don't think he will though. ROG would have been taken off with SOB and Earls if that was the case. Sexton's kicking from the tee is now a massive problem. His ability to vary the game and distribution was a major factor in us moving down the pitch last week but he's leaving points behind.

Reloc8

Has to start O'Gara against Italy - Sexton must be about 40% from the tee. Unacceptable.

I also have a sneaking suspicion he wants to start O'Gara against Wales.

All this talk about Sexton's confidence being destroyed - you'd think he was a wannabee super model who had hit the pork pies.

The guy is a tough pro, and he hasn't let his problems from the ground spoil his general play, for example. He'll be ok to do a job if brought on from the bench, or if not started against Italy and started against Wales.

DarkJager

hypermuse wrote: »

Granted the challenge of Russia was not exactly immense!!
Sexton is certainly not on form at the mo! His kicking is poor..

ROG has better kicking boots from the ground and out a hand! His ability to find the touchline with distance is incredible!!


But if you leave Sexton on the bench then its gonna absolutely destroy his confidence! Cant have that either!

Its a conundrum if you ask me! I think O'Gara is a better pick but for longevity, Kidney should probably Sexton..

I'd rather Sexton having his confidence take a bash than destroying our world cup chances with dodgy kicking. He's had a chance and every performance from him so far has been disappointing. He needs to be on the bench but rog should be first choice for the remaining games.

thomond2006

Preferably you'd have both on the field (ROG place kicking) but Wallace stayed on for 80 so Kidney has clearly gone for him at 12 against Italy.

We have to kick our goals against Italy, otherwise the Italians will gain some confidence and become very tricky to beat. Historically speaking we rarely put them away early.

the immortals

has to be o gara purely on kicking form

hypermuse

The world cup is the biggest stage!! I personally think ROG should start but cant see Kidney leaving Sexton on the bench!

If ROG has a dodgy game then Sexton will come on and I think he'll stand up to the challenge better coming on as a sub with more to prove than starting!

GerM

DarkJager wrote: »

I'd rather Sexton having his confidence take a bash than destroying our world cup chances with dodgy kicking. He's had a chance and every performance from him so far has been disappointing. He needs to be on the bench but rog should be first choice for the remaining games.

His general play has been very good. I wouldn't consider his performances disappointing and I suspect the coaching staff will keep faith on the same basis.

The thing is, it's easier for Sexton's goal kicking to click than it is for ROG to suddenly become a more creative outlet. I think the management team are pinning their hopes on such a thing. I'm not sure it's the right one. Against Italy, ROG needs to be brought on at 45 minutes if things aren't going well if they're sticking with Sexton to start.

irishbucsfan

I'd have O'Gara and Wallace as 10 and 12.

I see absolutely no reason to play Sexton against Italy now. I'm a huge Sexton fan but I have two concerns with his play so far in the world cup. One being the obvious kicking issues, which are very clear. The other is that despite the fact he has shown in the past he can get a backline moving and can attack himself, he hasn't done that yet in this world cup. For all his skills we've only scored 4 tries with Sexton on the field in this world cup, and we've scored 9 with O'Gara out there.

O'Gara's kicking is the main difference in the end. Yes Sexton is a fantastic kicker, and I have total faith in him when watching Leinster. At this world cup though he has faltered big time and there aren't any signs he's getting it worked out. This is the biggest tournament in rugby though and there is no room for sentimentality. We can't sit around and wait until Jonny Sexton remembers how to kick.

Some people will say that O'Gara is defensively weak. Sure Sexton brings more in defense and I would certainly start him against all stronger opposition (Semis and Finals) due to his contribution, particularly in setting up the choke tackle, but while O'Gara certainly isn't a excellent defender he isn't exactly a liability either.

As of now I just feel that O'Gara is getting huge benefit from his experience and he is a steadier hand to steer the ship against teams like Italy.

Aidric

Almaviva wrote: »

O'Gara starting on the B team today shows that a B team player is what he is and there is nothing he can really do to change Kidneys mind anymore.

Good man. O Gara has proven superior in every game so far and Sexton is just an expensive selection. Sure he brings a slightly better defence but he can't even carry out his main duty effectively.

O Gara should start from here on in at 10. I'm not all that averse to having Sexton at 12. He'd certainly be better than D'arcy.

JRant

DarkJager wrote: »

hypermuse wrote: »

Granted the challenge of Russia was not exactly immense!!
Sexton is certainly not on form at the mo! His kicking is poor..

ROG has better kicking boots from the ground and out a hand! His ability to find the touchline with distance is incredible!!


But if you leave Sexton on the bench then its gonna absolutely destroy his confidence! Cant have that either!

Its a conundrum if you ask me! I think O'Gara is a better pick but for longevity, Kidney should probably Sexton..

I'd rather Sexton having his confidence take a bash than destroying our world cup chances with dodgy kicking. He's had a chance and every performance from him so far has been disappointing. He needs to be on the bench but rog should be first choice for the remaining games.

Sexton poor in every game eh! Did you not watch the Aussie game last week. Granted he has to improve his place kicking but his overall game is at a higher level to ROG. I wonder has ROG won the mind games he started?

Either way our scrum needs to improve ( ie don't play Buckley at loose head). I think Deccie will bow to RoG's demands and start him next week.

Quint2010

ROG for me. I just think he is playing better rugby at the moment. His drop outs, line kicking, place kicking and control of the game are better than Sexton's.

Reloc8

JRant wrote: »

Sexton poor in every game eh! Did you not watch the Aussie game last week. Granted he has to improve his place kicking but his overall game is at a higher level to ROG. I wonder has ROG won the mind games he started?

Either way our scrum needs to improve ( ie don't play Buckley at loose head). I think Deccie will bow to RoG's demands and start him next week.

Ah come on. If ROG starts its because he's been picked on form not because he's ultimatumed his way onto the team.

DarkJager

JRant wrote: »

Sexton poor in every game eh! Did you not watch the Aussie game last week. Granted he has to improve his place kicking but his overall game is at a higher level to ROG. I wonder has ROG won the mind games he started?

Either way our scrum needs to improve ( ie don't play Buckley at loose head). I think Deccie will bow to RoG's demands and start him next week.

I honestly am not impressed at all with Sexton. As for him being a higher level than ROG, when he's won as many tournaments and scored as many points as him you can say that. Both are primarily the kick takers and only one of them is showing any consistency to their play. It aint Sexton.

Poor Uncle Tom

O'Gara to start and if we get a few points under the belt Kidney will pull him for Johnny.

Sexton still has a lot to learn, O'Gara is like a sniper for the corner kicks and we do need all the points we can get against Italy.

d'Oracle

On current form, as in the balance of play so far in the world cup, I'd have O'Gara.

Particularly cos Sexton is not kicking well and if I'm cruel I can see we have seen him go runs of games kicking waywardly.

To the dude who suggested it might ruin Sextons confidence, if that is the case we need to start looking for a new Out-half. Cos if his confidence is that fragile, then he has no place playing international rugby.

chris85

ROG to start and i am a big fan of his and Leinster but this is about Ireland and ROG is the in form player.

Some of the kicks out of hand today were unreal. Quality point kicking display also. Put his backs into some good space.

Reloc8

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

O'Gara to start and if we get a few points under the belt Kidney will pull him for Johnny.

Sexton still has a lot to learn, O'Gara is like a sniper for the corner kicks and we do need all the points we can get against Italy.

That I think is it in a nutshell - more or less 60% - 40% game time, hoping that the scoreboard permits that. Actually if it doesn't you'll see Sexton on anyway, because something will be going wrong.

I really think what Kidney wants to do is start O'Gara against Wales as well, but is expecting France if we get over that hurdle and would much rather Sexton to start that game (perfectly sound logic to both those suggestions too).

theboss80

This will all end in tears yet..........

Reloc8

Back in your box !!

danthefan

People are way overrating what ROG has done when he's come on imo, but his goalkicking is near 80 or 90% and Sexton's is around 30%. There's a video on Youtube showing all ROG's touches against Aus and he was actually fairly poor, his kicking from hand was awful aside from his first touchfinder. It's a tough call.

JRant

DarkJager wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

Sexton poor in every game eh! Did you not watch the Aussie game last week. Granted he has to improve his place kicking but his overall game is at a higher level to ROG. I wonder has ROG won the mind games he started?

Either way our scrum needs to improve ( ie don't play Buckley at loose head). I think Deccie will bow to RoG's demands and start him next week.

I honestly am not impressed at all with Sexton. As for him being a higher level than ROG, when he's won as many tournaments and scored as many points as him you can say that. Both are primarily the kick takers and only one of them is showing any consistency to their play. It aint Sexton.

I'm hardly inspired with confidence when Sexton stands over a kick lately but that will improve. Oh come on it's not discussion on how many trophies either man has won. Personally I think Sexton is the better player at this moment in time. The problem for the Irish team management is that if they play Sexton ,RoG might walk away from the team . if they start ROG, dispute his decent form, it could be argued they are pandering to him. Not that I personally think that but it could be seen as such.

ambid

Has to be O'Gara.

You can't win a big game with your goalkicker getting only 40%-50% of his kicks.

jprender

JRant wrote: »

The problem for the Irish team management is that if they play Sexton ,RoG might walk away from the team . if they start ROG, dispute his decent form, it could be argued they are pandering to him.
Not that I personally think that but it could be seen as such.

I think that you are the only one that thinks that.

Micky Dolenz

I'd start Sexton. He brings extra intensity. That is no slight against O Gara. Either one of them can comfortably do the job.

d'Oracle

danthefan wrote: »

People are way overrating what ROG has done when he's come on imo, but his goalkicking is near 80 or 90% and Sexton's is around 30%. There's a video on Youtube showing all ROG's touches against Aus and he was actually fairly poor, his kicking from hand was awful aside from his first touchfinder. It's a tough call.

I guess the fact that apart from this morning, our backline hasn't looked to me anything like being able to score tries is the swing factor for me.

Against Italy we won't get the the scrum ball we got against Aussie or today before we maddeningly put a mediocre specialist tight-head/should-be-second-row at loose head.

So there will be more pressure on the backline and more emphasis on getting those penalties that Italy always give away.

So the Kicking thing, for the match at hand, is vital.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

For all his skills we've only scored 4 tries with Sexton on the field in this world cup, and we've scored 9 with O'Gara out there.

For all the valid reasons to pick ROG ahead of Sexton this surely isn't one. Most of those 9 tries came today against Russia ffs. Probably the weakest, or at best second weakest, team in the competition. And while an OH can get a back line moving, they can't play the game for the whole back line. If the guys behind him aren't performing or the gameplan isn't letting them there's not much your OH can do.

That's an incredibly simplistic and skewed bit of logic I'm afraid and shouldn't enter the debate. Our back line today still didn't look that great and against tougher opposition we'll struggle to get tries unless we change how we're playing. And that's regardless of who we have at OH.

JRant

jprender wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

The problem for the Irish team management is that if they play Sexton ,RoG might walk away from the team . if they start ROG, dispute his decent form, it could be argued they are pandering to him.
Not that I personally think that but it could be seen as such.

I think that you are the only one that thinks that.

Like I said I DON'T think that will is the case. But none of us here will be involved in the decision making, so you just never know.

Personally I' start ROG against Italy just on his goal kicking alone. It's not going to be an open game whoever starts.

ShamoBuc

ambid wrote: »

Has to be O'Gara.

You can't win a big game with your goalkicker getting only 40%-50% of his kicks.

The above. In a tight game, place kicking can win you ar lose you the game. As has been proven time and time again, ROG is a better place kicker than Sexton. It's a no brainer for me.

Today ROG was again on fire with the boot. Converted EVERY kick - bar one I tihnk( which hit the post). Sexton came on and missed a relatively easy conversion form Buckleys try - camera went to the bench and there was a caption of a player giving a 'look' to ROG - nuff said really.

Or maybe it's the ball:rolleyes:

decisions

I think we need to start ROG because territory will be very important. Sexton at 12 could work but the fact is that he could have tried it for the last 15min today but kidney didnt, so I cant see it happening.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

For all the valid reasons to pick ROG ahead of Sexton this surely isn't one. Most of those 9 tries came today against Russia ffs. Probably the weakest, or at best second weakest, team in the competition. And while an OH can get a back line moving, they can't play the game for the whole back line. If the guys behind him aren't performing or the gameplan isn't letting them there's not much your OH can do.

That's an incredibly simplistic and skewed bit of logic I'm afraid and shouldn't enter the debate. Our back line today still didn't look that great and against tougher opposition we'll struggle to get tries unless we change how we're playing. And that's regardless of who we have at OH.

I don't really care what you think should or shouldn't enter into the debate to be honest.

The fact is that against both the USA and Russia we have scored twice as many tries with O'Gara on the pitch than with Sexton. It shows that despite Sexton's increased ability with ball in hand we haven't performed all that much better in the backs with Sexton on than O'Gara. This isn't Sexton's fault, but of course it should enter into the debate.

GerM

d'Oracle wrote: »

I guess the fact that apart from this morning, our backline hasn't looked to me anything like being able to score tries is the swing factor for me.

Back line wasn't moving today either though, in reality. Anything they did manage was as a result of individuality like Earls tries or Trimble's breaks. I don't think we once saw a nice passing move that opened up Russia. The only move in the game that did that was Russia's second try. Back line tended to just shovel the ball along a fair bit. There was very little variation in it.

irishbucsfan

GerM wrote: »

Back line wasn't moving today either though, in reality. Anything they did manage was as a result of individuality like Earls tries or Trimble's breaks. I don't think we once saw a nice passing move that opened up Russia. The only move in the game that did that was Russia's second try. Back line tended to just shovel the ball along a fair bit. There was very little variation in it.

That's the way it's looked all tournament. It's awful. Can't understand it.

d'Oracle

GerM wrote: »

Back line wasn't moving today either though, in reality. Anything they did manage was as a result of individuality like Earls tries or Trimble's breaks. I don't think we once saw a nice passing move that opened up Russia. The only move in the game that did that was Russia's second try. Back line tended to just shovel the ball along a fair bit. There was very little variation in it.

Fair point, which only further underlines the importance of the kicking tee.

JRant

irishbucsfan wrote: »

GerM wrote: »

Back line wasn't moving today either though, in reality. Anything they did manage was as a result of individuality like Earls tries or Trimble's breaks. I don't think we once saw a nice passing move that opened up Russia. The only move in the game that did that was Russia's second try. Back line tended to just shovel the ball along a fair bit. There was very little variation in it.

That's the way it's looked all tournament. It's awful. Can't understand it.

It has to be down to the fact that we keep changing our scrum half and have two different types of OH. No wonder the backline never know what's going to happen.

Salty Dog Shrimp

ShamoBuc wrote: »

The above. In a tight game, place kicking can win you ar lose you the game. As has been proven time and time again, ROG is a better place kicker than Sexton. It's a no brainer for me.

Today ROG was again on fire with the boot. Converted EVERY kick - bar one I tihnk( which hit the post). Sexton came on and missed a relatively easy conversion form Buckleys try - camera went to the bench and there was a caption of a player giving a 'look' to ROG - nuff said really.

Or maybe it's the ball:rolleyes:

Agree with that. The Italians will look to strangle the life out of us and will happily concede penalties all night if they're not getting punished. Sexton's had his chance to cement his place and simply hasn't taken it so can have no complaints if ROG gets the nod. I see someone mentioned that he's still learning, well this is not the time or the place for that and he's 26 not 19.

irishbucsfan

JRant wrote: »

It has to be down to the fact that we keep changing our scrum half and have two different types of OH. No wonder the backline never know what's going to happen.

I think it's just classic Gaffney. I think it was in 09/10 that Leinster finished top of the Magners league and still managed to score the fewest tries.

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's the way it's looked all tournament. It's awful. Can't understand it.

I'd disagree in relation to the Australia game. The variation in carrying was fantastic. We used the forwards in the back line a lot but they worked a treat. Best, SOB and even POC were linking in well and being put through gaps with disguised passes and decoys. One of our penalties came from a lovely move where Sexton to BOD flat reversed it back inside to SOB on the stampede.

We don't have the midfield to perform the way, for example, Leinster did 5 years ago but we can mix things up with intelligent play and variation. We didn't even do that today. Russia were weak enough that we could just go at them and they'd crack but I was surprised the backs couldn't open them up with Wallace on.

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's the way it's looked all tournament. It's awful. Can't understand it.

Has to be Gaffney imo. The Leinster backline was shocking while he was there, playing exactly like Ireland are now.

Podge_irl

Aidric wrote: »

Good man. O Gara has proven superior in every game so far and Sexton is just an expensive selection. Sure he brings a slightly better defence but he can't even carry out his main duty effectively.

O Gara should start from here on in at 10. I'm not all that averse to having Sexton at 12. He'd certainly be better than D'arcy.

Kicking penalties isn't a 10's main duty.

The ideal situation would be Sexton starting with a Patterson type player on the pitch to take the kicks. Alas we don't have that so we're left with a choice that's going to have pretty serious disadvantages either way.

ROG looked good in patches today, but still plays too far behind the gain line for my liking. He also gave up two interceptions today, which is hardly encouraging. The kick for McFadden's try was also poor and in my mind the complete wrong option. I'm still firmly of the opinion that Sexton is much the better option in open play. We would have scored msot of those tries today with Wallace at fly half - it was the worst team in the competition's third game in 11 days.

On the other hand it's simply impossible to ignore Sexton's poor kicking. In a close game that's going to cost Ireland and I have no real confidence in him suddenly correcting it. You can't leave that many points behind.

I would be of the opinion we've two fairly middling options at the moment. I'd probably start ROG against Italy but I don't think it's at all clear.

Mr. Incognito

This is obvious

ROG >90% conversions

Sexton <40%

Italy have a tight defence and penalties will be vital.

ROG all day long.

sportfanatic

Needs to be Sexton, at some point I'm sure he will click back into form. He's shown in the past that he can kick penalties, that isn't gone, he just needs to find it.

Rog has kept the pressure on Sexton, fair play to and has shown some great character. But I'd still have major concerns about him if he has a one on one tackle to make at a crucial stage of the game.

At the moment I'm looking away each time Sexton goes to take a kick but i think if DK sticks with him it will pay off.

Its not been helped by the constant changing at scrum half either. At some point we need to settle on a combination and go with it, if it happens to be ROG he needs to stay with that decision and deal with the outcomes.

SuprSi

sportfanatic wrote: »

Needs to be Sexton, at some point I'm sure he will click back into form. He's shown in the past that he can kick penalties, that isn't gone, he just needs to find it.

Rog has kept the pressure on Sexton, fair play to and has shown some great character. But I'd still have major concerns about him if he has a one on one tackle to make at a crucial stage of the game.

At the moment I'm looking away each time Sexton goes to take a kick but i think if DK sticks with him it will pay off.

Its not been helped by the constant changing at scrum half either. At some point we need to settle on a combination and go with it, if it happens to be ROG he needs to stay with that decision and deal with the outcomes.

But what if the Italy game isn't the time this happens? What if he starts and misses 40% - 50% of his kicks, as he's done so far this tournament? It's ok to take a chance and hope that he sorts things out during less important or easier games, but he came on today and missed a relative sitter so obviously things haven't improved. Every score will count against the Italians, and as penalties will probably be key, we'll need someone reliable to convert them.

I'd push for a tight gameplan vs the Italians. We know we can force them into penalties, and so long as we stay competitive in the set piece it'll be a winning game for us.

ROG

Sexton off the bench in the last quarter to up the tempo, and finish em off

.ak

I'd be picking Sexton but mostly because he can control a backline with a very intense pace especially when coupled with Reddan. Put it this way, do you think we would've controlled the Aus game if ROG was started with Reddan?

Like it or not, Sexton is our meat n' veg out-half, and whilst his place kicking is way off at the moment (so is alot of others mind you) I have no doubt his physicality will be key against the Italians.

Also, ROG does have an immense ability to close games off. ROG needs to be playing the last quarter of this game, he's actually too valuable/good at this to start.

sportfanatic

SuprSi wrote: »

But what if the Italy game isn't the time this happens? What if he starts and misses 40% - 50% of his kicks, as he's done so far this tournament? It's ok to take a chance and hope that he sorts things out during less important or easier games, but he came on today and missed a relative sitter so obviously things haven't improved. Every score will count against the Italians, and as penalties will probably be key, we'll need someone reliable to convert them.

Thats a fair point, if it goes like that and Sexton misses his kicks, get ROG on to play the hero and save the day. Which i'm sure he would thrive in.

Last chance for Sexton, i'm a big fan of his but he's had plenty of chances. I still think Sexton on form gives us more then ROG on form, but if ROG has to come on them the 10 jersey should be his until he chooses to retire.

Theres a few other factors here also. Who he picks at 9 and 12 (if Darcy is injured), i'll cringe if i see a Reddan, ROG, Wallace combination. Seems way too lightweight.