Paul Ince on the Rooney Rule

Marty McFly

http://www.football365.com/news/21554/7192784/Ince-backing-for-Rooney-Rule




Just read that there, and personally to me I dont agree with it one bit. Now not that im against more black managers in football but blaming racial issues as to why theres so few balck managers is pushing it no?

I mean there plenty of amazing coloured players out there, and if there good enough theyll make it managment just as they would in there playing careers regardless of skin colour.

Is this political correctness gone mad in football? I mean making it every time a managerial job comes up that you have to include a coloured canditate just sounds ridicilous to me.

Im not sure if this will have much interest in here but after reading it it kinda got on my wick a little bit.

Paully D

So there's only 3 black managers with the right qualifications available for work at the minute, as Ince says himself. Yet there seems to be a moral high ground taken by a number of people regarding this especially the likes of Ollie Holt who has quickly become one of the most annoying men in football with his constant ranting.

Perhaps if he offered a tactical insight greater than the below he might have some chance of getting a job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCHPEwyd9E

John Barnes can't get an interview? I'm not fucking surprised. He should look at his horrendous managerial record rather than using his pathetic ''Iz it 'coz I iz black'' attitude to cover it up.

I'm all for black managers, I couldn't give a shiny shite what colour a manager is, but clubs aren't going to want to employ poor managers whether they be white, black, yellow, green, blue or purple.

Get the proper qualifications, and if you do get an opportunity actually do well, and you'll have just as much chance as anyone else, regardless of colour.

CSF

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

I mean there plenty of amazing coloured players out there, and if there good enough theyll make it managment just as they would in there playing careers regardless of skin colour

Doesn't seem to be the case though.

Marty McFly

Thats exactly the same way I was thinking really. If he or Barnes were good enough instead of having terrible track records then like any other good manager theyd be at a top club. I cant imagine Barcelona, Man United etc refusing to consider a manger beacuse of his skin colour they wouldnt care less they just want the best man for the job.

Its because unfortunetley at the momment theres not any good coloured managers, not racism now do me a favour Ince and crawl back into your hole and stop trying to get yourself in the papers, and trying to force your way to the top and concentrate on proving it.

CSF

Paully D wrote: »

So there's only 3 black managers with the right qualifications available for work at the minute, as Ince says himself. Yet there seems to be a moral high ground taken by a number of people regarding this especially the likes of Ollie Holt who has quickly become one of the most annoying men in football with his constant ranting.

Perhaps if he offered a tactical insight greater than the below he might have some chance of getting a job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCHPEwyd9E

John Barnes can't get an interview? I'm not fucking surprised. He should look at his horrendous managerial record rather than using his pathetic ''Iz it 'coz I iz black'' attitude to cover it up.

I'm all for black managers, I couldn't give a shiny shite what colour a manager is, but clubs aren't going to want to employ poor managers whether they be white, black, yellow, green, blue or purple.

Get the proper qualifications, and if you do get an opportunity actually do well, and you'll have just as much chance as anyone else, regardless of colour.

But black managers AREN'T getting the opportunity. It also doesn't seem that black managers are given as much chance as anyone else. Is the suggestion from those who disagree with all of this, that black people aren't good at football management?

Don't misinterpret me here, I'm not calling anyone who thinks that racist or anything, but do people think that at the moment the lack of black managers in football is down to a lack of suitable candidates?

CSF

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

Thats exactly the same way I was thinking really. If he or Barnes were good enough instead of having terrible track records then like any other good manager theyd be at a top club. I cant imagine Barcelona, Man United etc refusing to consider a manger beacuse of his skin colour they wouldnt care less they just want the best man for the job.

Its because unfortunetley at the momment theres not any good coloured managers, not racism now do me a favour Ince and crawl back into your hole and stop trying to get yourself in the papers, and trying to force your way to the top and concentrate on proving it.

There aren't any good coloured managers yet there are 90ish good white ones? Do you actually believe this to be the case?

Hank Scorpio

Jean Tigana was a good manager, cant really think of many others in the PL other than Hughton. Mick McCarthy's assistant is black aswell.

I think its total bull anyway

Marty McFly

CSF wrote: »

But black managers AREN'T getting the opportunity. It also doesn't seem that black managers are given as much chance as anyone else. Is the suggestion from those who disagree with all of this, that black people aren't good at football management?

Don't misinterpret me here, I'm not calling anyone who thinks that racist or anything, but do people think that at the moment the lack of black managers in football is down to a lack of suitable candidates?

No im not saying that black managers arent any good I just dont believe for whatever reason many coloured players decide to go into managment really. Even look at Houghton he said for years he had no interest in becoming a manager until he was kinda thrown into it he was reluctant for years. Plus Ince and Barnes were given the opportunity they both just failed miserably at clubs in the high end of football. Think about it how many coloured managers can you think of? Or coloured players who have come out and stated it was there ambition to be a manager?

CSF

nuxxx wrote: »

Jean Tigana was a good manager, cant really think of many others in the PL other than Hughton.

Exactly. Whereas you have tonnes of mediocre to poor white managers who just can not fall off the manager merry-go-round. There was no black manager out there with better ability than Steve Kean or Alex McLeish? Find this very hard to believe. The difference seems to be that white footballers find the first opportunity much easier to get, and get given more and more afterwards whether they're any use or not.

CSF

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

No im not saying that black managers arent any good I just dont believe for whatever reason many coloured players decide to go into managment really. Even look at Houghton he said for years he had no interest in becoming a manager until he was kinda thrown into it he was reluctant for years. Plus Ince and Barnes were given the opportunity they both just failed miserably at clubs in the high end of football. Think about it how many coloured managers can you think of? Or coloured players who have come out and stated it was there ambition to be a manager?

You don't come out and state your ambition to be a manager, usually somebody offers you a coaching job or assistant manager job and you work your way up that way. Not happening for the most part.

Hank Scorpio

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

Think about it how many coloured managers can you think of? Or coloured players who have come out and stated it was there ambition to be a manager?

Very few, Vieira is a recent one that springs to mind. I don't believe its down to racism though.

RoryMac

CSF wrote: »

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

I mean there plenty of amazing coloured players out there, and if there good enough theyll make it managment just as they would in there playing careers regardless of skin colour

Doesn't seem to be the case though.

I just don't think the colour of a manager comes into it for the vast majority of chairmen and fans. As Ince says himself in the article there are very few black managers with their coaching badges so who are thes jobs supposed to go to?

Ince did his reputation no good when jumping clubs after a few months in charge and Barnes' reputation is rightly ruined after Celtic and Tranmere.

If the plans were to devise a plan for encouraging black managers to take their coaching badges I'd welcome it but to force clubs to interview black managers for positions they may not be suitable is ridiculous.

In most cases anyway new managers are head-hunted so I really don't see any benefit, should John Barnes and Paul Ince get interviews for the Man Utd job when they only want Guadiola??

Marty McFly

CSF wrote: »

You don't come out and state your ambition to be a manager, usually somebody offers you a coaching job or assistant manager job and you work your way up that way. Not happening for the most part.

Ah but a lot of players will be asked this before they retire, if they see themselves entering managment some day, and some will state yes its something id like to do others will say no.

Ruud Guillit is another black manager who was given plenty of opportunitys both in the EPL and abroad he just failed everywhere he went.

Frank Rijkaard is another who actually done well for a bit he was manager off Holland, Sparta Rotterdam then got the Barcelona job after that even though he got Sparta relegated, he was also manager of Galatassary and now Saudia Arabia.

I do believe the opportunitys are there for them its just that not many choose to go down that road once they retire.

homerjay2005

introducing the rule would be mad. why should it matter what color their skin is, if they are good enough, they will be selected...no club should be forced to interview somebody cos of their skin color and IMO,just creates unnesessary issues.

CSF

RoryMac wrote: »

I just don't think the colour of a manager comes into it for the vast majority of chairmen and fans. As Ince says himself in the article there are very few black managers with their coaching badges so who are thes jobs supposed to go to?

Ince did his reputation no good when jumping clubs after a few months in charge and Barnes' reputation is rightly ruined after Celtic and Tranmere.

If the plans were to devise a plan for encouraging black managers to take their coaching badges I'd welcome it but to force clubs to interview black managers for positions they may not be suitable is ridiculous.

In most cases anyway new managers are head-hunted so I really don't see any benefit, should John Barnes and Paul Ince get interviews for the Man Utd job when they only want Guadiola??

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

Ah but a lot of players will be asked this before they retire, if they see themselves entering managment some day, and some will state yes its something id like to do others will say no.

Ruud Guillit is another black manager who was given plenty of opportunitys both in the EPL and abroad he just failed everywhere he went.

Frank Rijkaard is another who actually done well for a bit he was manager off Holland, Sparta Rotterdam then got the Barcelona job after that even though he got Sparta relegated, he was also manager of Galatassary and now Saudia Arabia.

I do believe the opportunitys are there for them its just that not many choose to go down that road once they retire.

Gullit won an FA Cup and was sacked when in 2nd place at Chelsea. Hardly a failure. Rijkaard has never been a Premiership/Football League manager so does not really qualify for this argument.

CSF

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if they are good enough, they will be selected...

Again this looks like it cannot be the case, the whole black race can not be that unsuitable for coaching/management?

Paully D

CSF wrote: »

But black managers AREN'T getting the opportunity. It also doesn't seem that black managers are given as much chance as anyone else. Is the suggestion from those who disagree with all of this, that black people aren't good at football management?

Don't misinterpret me here, I'm not calling anyone who thinks that racist or anything, but do people think that at the moment the lack of black managers in football is down to a lack of suitable candidates?

How many black managers with the proper qualifications are actually out there at the minute available to work in the UK? Paul Ince says there are 3. One is himself, who did well initially and because of that got the opportunity to manage a Premier League club where he failed. One is John Barnes who was an embarrassment to football management and plays the race card as the reason for his failure despite him getting 3 opportunities (he did well at Jamaica and left them with a drop of a hat to take the Tranmere position) and failing in the two club positions. The other is Chris Hughton, who was given the opportunity to manage Newcastle and despite what some people would call being harshly sacked, Mike Ashley's decision wasn't based on his colour as if that was the case he wouldn't have got the job in the first place. He's now managing Birmingham in the Championship.

In fact, I've had a look through the list myself as Ince's ''there's only 3 of us'' statement didn't make it clear about what he was referring too. Powell is one as well and he's managing Charlton. Onoura was given a chance with Swindon and blew it. Keith Alexander (RIP) was at Peterbrough and mutually terminated his contract to join Bury in a higher capacity in the boardroom and then went to Macclesfield.

There's literally dozens of white managers who ''don't get opportunities'' (in other words their CV doesn't impress, clubs have no interest in appointing them, etc) but it's not because of their colour, the same goes for black managers and there's literally dozens of white managers who get an opportunity at lower league level, do poorly and are rarely heard of again. The same goes for black managers. It happens all the time in management and isn't specific to black managers.

The likes of Ince seem to think Premier League clubs should be appointing black managers just for the sake of it and the only reason it isn't happening is because of skin colour, the simple fact is that not enough of them have the proper qualifications or have done well enough at lower league clubs when given an opportunity and failed to progress up the ladder which most managers have to do in order to get bigger clubs interested.

everdead.ie

CSF wrote: »

But black managers AREN'T getting the opportunity. It also doesn't seem that black managers are given as much chance as anyone else. Is the suggestion from those who disagree with all of this, that black people aren't good at football management?

Don't misinterpret me here, I'm not calling anyone who thinks that racist or anything, but do people think that at the moment the lack of black managers in football is down to a lack of suitable candidates?

If you look at the number of people who have taken the qualification exams run by Uefa there are very few that arent white.
If they go get the badges they'll have a much better chance

CSF wrote: »

There aren't any good coloured managers yet there are 90ish good white ones? Do you actually believe this to be the case?

I don't believe for a second there is 90 good white managers there are a lot of rubbish managers in there as well.

homerjay2005

CSF wrote: »

Again this looks like it cannot be the case, the whole black race can not be that unsuitable for coaching/management?

go on then, im not sure who you support, but name the top 5 candidates who you would like to manage them if your manager would leave tomorrow? does any black manager stand out as good enough?

i am sure there are plenty of black managers out there, just not many good ones right now.

looking at the top 20 players in the world, how many of them would be black, or asian etc etc? its not about racism, its just the way things are right now and i am sure it will change as time goes on.

CSF

Paully D wrote: »

How many black managers with the proper qualifications are actually out there at the minute available to work in the UK? Paul Ince says there are 3. One is himself, who did well initially and because of that got the opportunity to manage a Premier League club where he failed. One is John Barnes who was an embarrassment to football management and plays the race card as the reason for his failure despite him getting 3 opportunities (he did well at Jamaica and left them with a drop of a hat to take the Tranmere position) and failing in the two club positions. The other is Chris Hughton, who was given the opportunity to manage Newcastle and despite what some people would call being harshly sacked, Mike Ashley's decision wasn't based on his colour as if that was the case he wouldn't have got the job in the first place. He's now managing Birmingham in the Championship.

In fact, I've had a look through the list myself as Ince's ''there's only 3 of us'' statement didn't make it clear about what he was referring too. Powell is one as well and he's managing Charlton. Onoura was given a chance with Swindon and blew it. Keith Alexander (RIP) was at Peterbrough and mutually terminated his contract to join Bury in a higher capacity in the boardroom and then went to Macclesfield.

There's literally dozens of white managers who ''don't get opportunities'' (in other words their CV doesn't impress, clubs have no interest in appointing them, etc) but it's not because of their colour, the same goes for black managers and there's literally dozens of white managers who get an opportunity at lower league level, do poorly and are rarely heard of again. The same goes for black managers. It happens all the time in management and isn't specific to black managers.

The likes of Ince seem to think Premier League clubs should be appointing black managers just for the sake of it and the only reason it isn't happening is because of skin colour, the simple fact is that not enough of them have the proper qualifications or have done well enough at lower league clubs when given an opportunity and failed to progress up the ladder which most managers have to do in order to get bigger clubs interested.

This doesn't really relate to Premier League clubs appointing black men as managers though, Premier League clubs shouldn't be appointing ANYONE who don't have outstanding credentials already as manager, white or black. At present there are no outstanding black managers.

It is at 2 other levels where the problems stem and cause this shortfall. Top black players are not getting a chance at lower league clubs the way white managers are. We could rattle off all day, the amount of inexperienced white managers who have come in at Championship and below level, can't say the same for black footballers. Also, and this is the big one for me. Top black footballers are not being nurtured for coaching and management at Premiership clubs the way that their white equivalent are. You go through the coaching and academy staff at Premiership clubs, generally it is a whos who of ex-footballers, for the most part you'll see that the trends are the same as at management level.

CSF

everdead.ie wrote: »

If you look at the number of people who have taken the qualification exams run by Uefa there are very few that arent white.
If they go get the badges they'll have a much better chance

Most of these are pushed through and paid for by clubs who are going to nurture them into coaching/management.

CSF

homerjay2005 wrote: »

go on then, im not sure who you support, but name the top 5 candidates who you would like to manage them if your manager would leave tomorrow? does any black manager stand out as good enough?

i am sure there are plenty of black managers out there, just not many good ones right now.

looking at the top 20 players in the world, how many of them would be black, or asian etc etc? its not about racism, its just the way things are right now and i am sure it will change as time goes on.

I support Shelbourne, not a huge amount of black players in the LOI (we're neo-nazis but don't tell anyone) so not much to argue about really.

It isn't just the way things are right now though, it is the way things have ALWAYS been.

PARlance

CSF wrote: »

Again this looks like it cannot be the case, the whole black race can not be that unsuitable for coaching/management?

CSF wrote: »

I support Shelbourne, not a huge amount of black players in the LOI (we're neo-nazis but don't tell anyone) so not much to argue about really.

It isn't just the way things are right now though, it is the way things have ALWAYS been.

Surely there should be more black players playing for Shels, the whole black race can not be that unsuitable for playing for Shels :rolleyes:

Not sure what point, if any, you've been trying to make....All you seem to be stating is the fact that there isn't many black managers....albeit, in a very long winded way

homerjay2005

What is the ration of white to black british players in the football league? 7 or 8:1???

am i right in saying that most of the black players would be foreign therefore they are more likely to leave the country and if they become managers, would do so in other countries such as their own?

Paparazzo

Ince is making a fool of himself. John Barnes not getting a job because he's black? That's ridiclious!
He blames the colour of his skin for getting the sack at blackburn too:

In his interview, Ince says of his shot in the big time: "Sadly, my experience at Blackburn showed that there are double standards out there and that black coaches are treated differently."

Ince was in charge of Blackburn for 17 league games, winning three of them and losing ten, and leaving Blackburn second-bottom of the Premier League (not fourth-bottom, as Holt claims) when he was sacked.

Good piece on football365 about Oliver Holts take on it:

Holt wrote on December 17, 2008:

'I do not believe that Paul Ince was sacked as manager of Blackburn Rovers yesterday because he is of mixed race.

'He was dismissed because, under his direction, Blackburn have only won three games this season and lie second bottom of the Premier League.

'He was fired because the Premier League is a panic station manned by more than its fair share of boardroom mediocrities.'

Compare this, if you will, with Holt's piece on Wednesday:

'Ince has heard all the slurs before, of course. He can laugh at them now but there is a tinge of bitterness in the laugh still. The truth, of course, is that the slurs are just another layer of proof that aspiring black managers face barrier after barrier in their fight to make a career in English football...

'Blackburn only gave him 177 days in the job before they sacked him on December 16. The club was fourth from bottom.'

Still, when you've got a point to make, it's amazing how malleable history can be.

PARlance

This Rooney rule is ridiculous... if they're worried about minorities in management, they should be making clubs interview english managers, whats the ratio of english players in the prem to english managers... Black English managers next, Ince for OT and Barnes for Anfield

Blatter

homerjay2005 wrote: »

What is the ration of white to black british players in the football league? 7 or 8:1???

am i right in saying that most of the black players would be foreign therefore they are more likely to leave the country and if they become managers, would do so in other countries such as their own?

I remember looking up the ratio of black British players in the league before. I can't remember what they are but they are without question, definitely under-represented in manager positions in England. And they have been for quite some time too.

It's all well and good that people say that there aren't enough blacks with manager qualifications etc. but you have to ask yourself why that is. Alot of them are being put off going into into management in the first place as they know it is much more difficult for a black manager to get a job than a white manager. That is the feeling that is out there at the moment and until that changes, we won't see as many black players becoming managers as we should.

Garth Crooks, amongst many others, has been very outspoken on the issue and said he didn't even consider going into management because of the way blacks are treated. Many black managers have spoken of how difficult and degrading it is for them. The general feeling is if two managers of equal ability are going for a job, one white and one black, the white manager will get the job every time.

This isn't a problem that has been dreamt up by a group of disgruntled black managers that can't get a job. The numbers don't add up, black managers are clearly under represented and there have been several personal accounts from black managers that back up the theory that there is a problem.

UnitedIrishman

Few things about this 'Rooney Rule'. First off, if there are only a handful of black coaches with the qualifications out there, what are chairmen going to do when it comes to interviewing possible managerial candidates - just keep interviewing the same few black coaches over and over again just so they fulfil the rule? And how soul destroying would it be for those coaches, who know they're not going to get the job - because they're not experienced/qualified enough - to have to go for these interviews?

Also this idea that black players don't go for their badges because they think the league is prejudiced against them is daft. It's like a child saying that he's not going to school because there's no point, he'll never learn anything. Put in the hours, get your badges and work hard. The same goes for any coach. If there were thousands of black coaches out there with their Uefa A level badge and being turned down in favour of less qualified white coaches, then there'd be a case.

Most fans of clubs, and most clubs, wouldn't care if you're black, white, an alien from out of space, as long as you get results. There shouldn't have to be a rule that raises the number of any ethnicity in coaching positions if they're not qualified.

The Rooney rule works in the NFL because there is a substantial amount of coaches from minority ethnic backgrounds already in the pool of coaches right across the country.

I think it's just another idiotic Oliver Holt idea. The guy is a stain on proper sports journalism. And Guv'nor isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box either to be honest to have as spokesperson on the matter.

x in the city

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

http://www.football365.com/news/21554/7192784/Ince-backing-for-Rooney-Rule




Just read that there, and personally to me I dont agree with it one bit. Now not that im against more black managers in football but blaming racial issues as to why theres so few balck managers is pushing it no?

I mean there plenty of amazing coloured players out there, and if there good enough theyll make it managment just as they would in there playing careers regardless of skin colour.

Is this political correctness gone mad in football? I mean making it every time a managerial job comes up that you have to include a coloured canditate just sounds ridicilous to me.

Im not sure if this will have much interest in here but after reading it it kinda got on my wick a little bit.

wheres the clip with ince writing down shoot or something on his paper....

WhiteRussian

[E]QUOTE=x in the city;74532944]wheres the clip with ince writing down shoot or something on his paper....[/QUOTE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCHPEwyd9E

Around :49 seconds. I'm only providing info here for that poster

Scuba Ste

Agree with some of what he's saying.

I don't think compulsory black candidates is the way to go. But, the FA could start a campaign or something to get more black players to progress into management.

Having so few black managers in football can only discourage black players from seeking qualifications to manage and something to address that situation can only be a good thing. If nothing else more black managers means more managers in total and potentially more good managers.

iregk

Where do we draw the line on this. Should it now be compulsory to interview any Chinese candidate or every American that applies? Why just have this rule for black candidates and not include all other races? Is that not selective discrimination?

Ollie Holt is a piss poor writer. I'm not going to call him a journalist as that's a skill that's way above him. He has been campaigning for Paul Ince and other black managers. The fact is they are no longer in work as they are crap. Nothing to do with their skin colour.

Lastly Holt's point that if Ince had the career he had as a player in Italy or Spain he would be in a managerial job by now. Number of black managers in Italy and Spain combined? 0

bohsfan

There seems to be a large discrepancy between the amount of black players at the top level of the game and the amount who go on to be football managers. Why is this so? This is the real question around this topic.

Perhaps black players see something happen in clubs that just puts them off pursuing careers as managers? It might not be a case of out and out racism, but something seems to be amiss somewhere.

iregk

bohsfan wrote: »

There seems to be a large discrepancy between the amount of black players at the top level of the game and the amount who go on to be football managers. Why is this so? This is the real question around this topic.

There is also a huge discrepancy in the amount of white players at the top level of the game than those who go on to the football managers.

x in the city

WhiteRussian wrote: »

[E]QUOTE=x in the city;74532944]wheres the clip with ince writing down shoot or something on his paper....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCHPEwyd9E

Around :49 seconds. I'm only providing info here for that poster[/QUOTE]

hahaha

quality