Another Gert Smal prediction :-)

theKramer

Ryan can be the new O'Connell

I like Donnchadh Ryan, but I doubt thats gonna happen.....

GerM

And Tony Buckley is world class. Ryan is only 4 years younger than POC. He'll be at least 30 by the time POC walks away. I like Ryan and think he's very talented but unless he gets a prolonged run for Ireland/Munster and adds some steel to his game, he'll never be in the same breath as POC.

bamboozle

i remember seeing Ryan come on as a sub in a HC game about 4 seasons ago against llanelli, he looked a serious player, fast, good hands.

fast forward to now and he's completely stagnated, ok he's made the world cup squad but i think its agreed he can count himself very fortunate to do so.

This is a guy who turns 28 in 2 months, he's 1 HC start to his name, considering POC's injuries over the last 2 seasons i have to question his ability if he wasnt getting recognised at Munster, ok he started a few games in the magners at the tail-end of last season at Kidneys request but he's never been a front liner under McGahan.

he would have benefitted greatly from heading to connacht for 2 seasons prior to the world cup so he could develop, at 28 now i fear its too late for him expecially with the likes of Nagle and O'Mahoney coming through at Munster.

tolosenc

Ideally, I want to see Ferris and Tuohy as our future SR pair, with McLoughlin as the back up.

Bogsnorkler

tolosenc wrote: »

Ideally, I want to see Ferris and Tuohy as our future SR pair, with McLoughlin as the back up.

Neither of them will dominate a lineout. Worrying times when POC goes.

How old is Cullen?

pajunior

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

Neither of them will dominate a lineout. Worrying times when POC goes.

How old is Cullen?

A couple of years older then O'connell. I imagine O'Connell will be around til at least the next lions tour and possibly the next world cup. If Shawe can do it at 38 why not POC at 35.
Please god someone will step up before then anyway.

CatFromHue

Ryan's biggest problem is that he is 3/4th choice second row for Munster and Ireland. The guys he is behind will still be there next season.

You can have all the talent in the world but unless you get game time it's irrelevant.

Then there is also the fact that McGahan was playing him in the back row for parts of last season.

SSK

tolosenc wrote: »

Ideally, I want to see Ferris and Tuohy as our future SR pair, with McLoughlin as the back up.

You see I don't understand this at all. If he stays fit (admittedly a big if) Ferris is potentially the best blindside in the world. No idea why you would want to shift him out of there.

I imagine your logic is based on the possibility of including a more natural 7 in the back row. Is there anyone particular that you have in mind for this. Dom Ryan looks good for Leinster but do you see him making the step up?

McLaughlin definitely has potential as a convert to the second row, particularly as he's a damn good lineout jumper and the fact that he won't get too many opportunities for Ireland in the back row.

PhatPiggins

The next person to mention moving Ferris into the second row should be banned

How many times are we going to explain why physically and medically it wouldn't work :mad:

Podge_irl

Gert Smal is a great coach, clearly, but apparently he just shouldn't be let near the media. You have to wonder if he actually thinks these things he says or is just trying to big up his players. Because if he actually thinks it then what the hell is going on inside his head.

danthefan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Gert Smal is a great coach, clearly, but apparently he just shouldn't be let near the media. You have to wonder if he actually thinks these things he says or is just trying to big up his players. Because if he actually thinks it then what the hell is going on inside his head.

You'd have to wonder tbh. Our set piece was an absolute car crash from after the '09 6N until Ross finally got into the side. He ultimately is responsible there.

Chucky the tree

I see no where in the qoutes where he says he can be the be O'Connell. He certainly never says he can be as good as O'Connell.

Podge_irl

danthefan wrote: »

You'd have to wonder tbh. Our set piece was an absolute car crash from after the '09 6N until Ross finally got into the side. He ultimately is responsible there.

True. I guess it comes down to whether it was his decision of Kidney's to have Buckley in the side and ignore Ross. Our line-out still isn't great either. The forwards were excellent against Aus though and they were decent enough during the 6N (though somewhat obliterated in the warm-ups), it was the backs and tactics that were mostly holding us back.

Comments like this really do make you wonder though.

Mind you, the Indo is making somewhat more of it then what Gert actually said. No surprise there.

danthefan

Podge_irl wrote: »

True. I guess it comes down to whether it was his decision of Kidney's to have Buckley in the side and ignore Ross. Our line-out still isn't great either. The forwards were excellent against Aus though and they were decent enough during the 6N (though somewhat obliterated in the warm-ups), it was the backs and tactics that were mostly holding us back.

Comments like this really do make you wonder though.

Mind you, the Indo is making somewhat more of it then what Gert actually said. No surprise there.

Smal was the guy making comments about how Buckley could be world class.

Podge_irl

danthefan wrote: »

Smal was the guy making comments about how Buckley could be world class.

Could have just been trying to big up one of his players - all coaches do it. He may not have actually thought it. Though I'm possibly just grasping at straws as I found the comment so completely and utterly unfathomable from anyone with the slightest knowledge of the game.

Bogsnorkler

TBH Mushy has/had the raw physical materials to be an awesome player. He just hasn't been able to develop much ability in the last 3-4 years.

I also think that Ryan has/had massive potential to become a world class 2nd row, but his lack of ambition in not moving away from Munster has really hurt him.

I still see him as good as anything knocking around anywhere else in ireland (barring POC), but could be much better.

danthefan

Ryan is probably there or there abouts in terms of other locks in Ireland, but that's more a statement of our lock resources rather than Ryan. As you say he should have left Munster about 6 years ago.

profitius

Regarding the scrum, Smal said he knew 90% about the scrum but he recommended Greg Feek to Kidney because he said Feek knew more than him. Not many people are big enough to admit they're wrong.

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

Regarding the scrum, Smal said he knew 90% about the scrum but he recommended Greg Feek to Kidney because he said Feek knew more than him. Not many people are big enough to admit they're wrong.

Yeah actually, plenty of people are. It happens all the time. I refuse to give credit for getting in a scrum coach, especially one who'd done such obviously good work with both our starting props.

davegrohl48

Buckley has played lock Does he have more ability in that position to provide more shove in behind Healy or Ross in last twenty minutes? I think there is a lack of drive on the hit from our locks Could be an idea Buckley is very strong but is too tall to be a top class prop Not mobile but a horse to defend the line like when Australia were camped on our line We are not always using both locks as lineout jumpers anyways It has its merits I think

pajunior

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Buckley has played lock Does he have more ability in that position to provide more shove in behind Healy or Ross in last twenty minutes? I think there is a lack of drive on the hit from our locks Could be an idea Buckley is very strong but is too tall to be a top class prop Not mobile but a horse to defend the line like when Australia were camped on our line We are not always using both locks as lineout jumpers anyways It has its merits I think

Would you lift him for a lineout?

padser

danthefan wrote: »

profitius wrote: »

Regarding the scrum, Smal said he knew 90% about the scrum but he recommended Greg Feek to Kidney because he said Feek knew more than him. Not many people are big enough to admit they're wrong.

Yeah actually, plenty of people are. It happens all the time. I refuse to give credit for getting in a scrum coach, especially one who'd done such obviously good work with both our starting props.

No - they don't.

Its unusual for a forward coach who knows a lot about the scrum to advocate taking on someone to do some of his job.

Hats off to him for having the courage to do that. Real leadership is not necessarily about being the best at something, it's surrounding yourself by people who compliment your strengths.

davegrohl48

I wouldn't expect anyone to lift him for a lineout, but we've barely used DOC in the lineout in the recent games. We've been going through POC mainly and if I'm right the odd one to Heaslip and Ferris.
Opposition would know they don't have to watch for him but just saying does his horsepower on the shove make it worth it? In wet condition especially you would think it just comes down to weight against weight as both scrums struggle to maintain their footing to get any leg drive. Which suits Buckleys 20stone.

CIARAN_BOYLE

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect anyone to lift him for a lineout, but we've barely used DOC in the lineout in the recent games. We've been going through POC mainly and if I'm right the odd one to Heaslip and Ferris.
Opposition would know they don't have to watch for him but just saying does his horsepower on the shove make it worth it? In wet condition especially you would think it just comes down to weight against weight as both scrums struggle to maintain their footing to get any leg drive. Which suits Buckleys 20stone.

Against Australia 3 POC, 1 DOC, 1 Heaslip
Against USA, 8 POC, 5 Heaslip, 2 DOC

Ferris hasn't jumped once and I'm not sure he is comfortable doing it anymore with his history of knee trouble.

davegrohl48

True about Ferris' knee. I'd imagine Heaslip is easy enough to get up to a good height, he's lighter than DOC, fairly springey and in general has better handling. Bit shorter but I would say has a bigger leap to help the lifters.

yimrsg

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect anyone to lift him for a lineout, but we've barely used DOC in the lineout in the recent games. We've been going through POC mainly and if I'm right the odd one to Heaslip and Ferris.
Opposition would know they don't have to watch for him but just saying does his horsepower on the shove make it worth it? In wet condition especially you would think it just comes down to weight against weight as both scrums struggle to maintain their footing to get any leg drive. Which suits Buckleys 20stone.

Generally, we're going to ball in the middle for POC and mauling it and the back with Heaslip for first phase carries by Ferris/SOB or as dummy strike runners to be missed with a skip pass.

We've DOC at the front as a safe option but since we've come under little pressure on our lineout he's been unused. DOC will be used more against the Italians and others who can put up 3 jumpers against us or if one of our hookers is having an off day.

If Buckley could do a job at second row then the management of either Munster, Ireland or his club would have found a way before hand, maybe Sale have him earmarked as one.

Pure weight means sod all for this level, Buckley's the heaviest player in the WC and I'd think that if you offered him to scrum down for EOS's USA or Kingsley Jones' Russia they would pass on him.

Buckley is the prime example of highlighting what makes a good scrummager as requiring more from a player than who is the biggest and heaviest.

I really hope I'm wrong but I feel Gert Smal has put the kiss of death on another player.

davegrohl48

Yes interesting to see how he gets on at Sale and if he ever ends up used there.
Buckley is overall pretty impressively strong. I mean he wouldn't be paid to be a prop if he wasn't (agreed he is not top class at it).
Look up Tony Buckley Player Toss on youtube. Only a person of remarkable strength could have thrown a player up and out of the way. Buckley has more shove than OConnell or OCallaghan. Couldn't be any other way about it. But I don't know the other intricaties of what a lock has to do outside of scrum time so yes, I am wondering why it hasn't been tried.
He only has two things going for him, his strength in the scrum and his ability like John Hayes before him to mind his little patch around the edge of a ruck. None shall pass that 3 yard space.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Ryan would have been the perfect replacement for Hines at Leinster IMO. The both play the enforcer role but, are athletic enough to keep up with the backs in a fast paced game.

Not really related but the NZ herald had Healy, Best, POC, Ferris and SOB in their team of the week. On POC they posed the question if POC is the best lock in the world - Not too bad for a guy who isn't a ''modern lock'' like Lawes or Gray huh??

shuffol

Hines is a genius at changing the point of attack and sucking in players before offloading. Ryan just doesnt have anything like that kind of ability, he's a decent athlete but when he has the ball his instinct is to drop the shoulder into the nearest tackler and go to ground, its a feature of most Irish locks. O'Callaghan being the worst of them when he does attempt to carry, at least O'Connell and Ryan tend to bring the first tackler to ground with them, O'Callaghan just dives at the knees of the opposition player and is easily turned over.

sickpuppy

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ryan would have been the perfect replacement for Hines at Leinster IMO. The both play the enforcer role but, are athletic enough to keep up with the backs in a fast paced game.

Not really related but the NZ herald had Healy, Best, POC, Ferris and SOB in their team of the week. On POC they posed the question if POC is the best lock in the world - Not too bad for a guy who isn't a ''modern lock'' like Lawes or Gray huh??

Lol@ P O C being the best lock in the world poor hands no penetration with the ball in hand he does other stuff very well

as for Ryan being an enforcer? dunno where you get that idea from
he was only able to enforce himself to start one heineken cup match

and no way does he intimidate and bully like proper enforcer a thug but excellent player like say Bakkies Botha

GerM

Why would Smal, a flanker, be extremely knowledgeable about the intricacies of the scrum? They had previously brought in Paul McCarthy, a prop, who had been unsuccessful with Munster as a coach, to work with the Irish side a year or two ago. It was only after McCarthy departed (who wasn't a success with Ireland either) and Feek joined Leinster that Feek was brought on board. I'd be concerned if a former flanker genuinely thought they could coach scrummaging to an international standard. Someone like Mike Ross would be far more knowledgeable than him. It would be ridiculous if Smal didn't think a specialist scrum coach was needed for Ireland. Cron, Rowntree, Noriega, Du Randt, Feek, all scrum specialists with the top tier nations. It would be praising him for stating one of the most obvious things.

davegrohl48

Is the whole coaching the scrum thing overstated?
I mean take out Cian Healy and Mike Ross and we move way down the scrummaing pecking order overnight. Healy and Ross are built for the position. It starts from that point, then you coach the techniques and skills. If you don't have props built to scrummage no amount of coaching will give you an effective scrum.
George Hook never stopped going on and on about John Hayes needing a scrum coach. The basic problem was that Hayes was too tall. No amount of scrummaging coaching could change that.

GerM

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Is the whole coaching the scrum thing overstated?
I mean take out Cian Healy and Mike Ross and we move way down the scrummaing pecking order overnight. Healy and Ross are built for the position. It starts from that point, then you coach the techniques and skills. If you don't have props built to scrummage no amount of coaching will give you an effective scrum.
George Hook never stopped going on and on about John Hayes needing a scrum coach. The basic problem was that Hayes was too tall. No amount of scrummaging coaching could change that.

No, a good scrum coach can make a world of difference. Hayes wasn't too tall although it probably didn't help him. Carl Hayman was the world's best tighthead when working under Mike Cron. Van der Linde is 6'3" and was a good scrummager before injury destroyed him. Tonga'uiha is 6'3". Hayman is the same height as Hayes. Look at the development and progress of Healy in the past 18 months. He has gone from being a weakness and a sometime liability to being a very solid and, on occasion, destructive scrummager. The difference Greg Feek made at half time in the HEC final should say everything about the difference a scrum coach can make. Props aren't born with the technique and skills. They're coached and honed over several seasons.

profitius

I do agree that Buckley should have been made a lock. You'd need some tall backrows though because he'd be too big to be jumping but it would be a great option to have for a coach.

irishbucsfan

This is so misleading. The Indo asked him if he thought Ryan was a replacement for O'Connell. At a world cup he is hardly going to say anything other than yes.

He did not say he is "the next O'Connell." Which he clearly isn't.

bamboozle

sickpuppy wrote: »

Lol@ P O C being the best lock in the world poor hands no penetration with the ball in hand he does other stuff very well

as for Ryan being an enforcer? dunno where you get that idea from
he was only able to enforce himself to start one heineken cup match

and no way does he intimidate and bully like proper enforcer a thug but excellent player like say Bakkies Botha

i think some people see the extensive range of angry faces he makes and equate that to being an enforcer.