Latvia vs Ireland

Dannyboy83

An interesting article in the indo today examines the reforms which Latvia undertook to correct it's broken economy.
Many of the decisions taken appear to be quite similar to what Irish people had hoped and prayed for when the IMF arrived in Ireland; interesting that Latvia undertook reforms from a much lower starting position than Ireland would have.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/latvia-collapsed-like-ireland-but-now-its-recovering-2880156.html

Its population of less than two-and-a-half million has endured the harshest recessions in history, with the economy declining by one quarter and unemployment peaking at 22 per cent.

However, as a result of some fierce austerity measures and an opening up of its public service, as dictated by the IMF, Latvia in 2011 is growing in excess of four per cent, with some saying growth could top five per cent this year.

The IMF, which lent Latvia €1.7bn as part of a €7.5bn programme, has forced Latvia to become more competitive by driving down wages and prices.

A third of teachers in Latvia were laid off; the rest have endured savage salary cuts of up to 40 per cent, leaving them barely above the minimum wage.

Many have seen their pension entitlements slashed by 70 per cent; doctors and police officers face sacrificing a fifth of their pay. Many other key state services were severely curtailed including the cancellation of medical surgeries and closure of hospital wards in order to bring the cost of running the state into line.

However, the IMF didn't arrive here on their own.
They arrived as part of a team along with the ECB.

I'm open to correction, but it's my understanding that the ECB, while not outright opposing reform of public expenditure, certainly allowed stringent opposition of such reforms - hence the reason we have seen very little of it. In Ireland. And in Greece.
While those EU countries where the IMF was the dominant force behind reform, pushed through those reforms and they now largely seem to be recovering.

We've heard a lot of quackery about our loss of sovereignty, but as exhibited when compared with Greece and contrasted with Latvia - we didn't really lose anywhere near the level of sovereignty being claimed.
Much to our detriment; The ECB has allowed Ireland to continue on it's program of outrageous state sector overspending.

According to an excellent study by Fine Gael TD Paschal Donohoe, which compares Ireland's economy to other similar-sized European and Scandinavian countries, living standards in Latvia are well below those of Ireland and the EU average.

Despite the strong growth this year, unemployment remains high at 18 per cent but is falling.

After its economy shrinking by 18 per cent in 2009 alone, last year Latvia recovered amazingly and all but stopped the decline.

Pre-tax profits at Rietumu Banka, a Latvian bank backed by Irish businessman Dermot Desmond, rose 15 per cent in the first half of this year to €4.65m.

According to his study, Ireland and the New National Question, Mr Donohoe concludes that Ireland performs poorly across a whole host of areas compared to other similar sized countries.

"The magnitude of Irish under-performance versus peer states is simply shocking," he writes.

In comparison to other countries of similar size like Denmark and Finland, in 2010 in areas like unemployment, budget deficit/surplus and debt levels, Ireland was by far the worst performer. Our unemployment rate was almost double all others and our deficit was over 10 times than the both countries.

It seems every straw available has been grasped to stop us falling over the bankruptcy cliff, all the while when the sensible option was to just put our foot on the State Sector Reform ladder and regain some semblance of balance in our economy- which we will ultimately probably end up having to do anyway.

It's regularly asked on this forum why Irish people don't protest.
If we stop and compare ourselves to Latvia - it should be obvious really - what should we be protesting about?
The cutthroat reforms - which never happened?

Perhaps we will see a more Greek scenario on Wednesday December 7th, when the budget is announced, and people start to tally up the personal financial cost of sustaining such a bloated state.

I don't expect a big bang tho. It rarely happens in Ireland.
I expect a more gradual growth of discontent, as net incomes fall due to taxation, as more and more people struggle to pay their mortgages and defaults rise, leading to some type of bailout for struggling homeowners & the responsible will yet again be robbed to pay for the reckless.

And while we regress and become more and more disillusioned, countries like Latvia will be recovering and progressing. And maybe we'll meet somewhere in the middle in the 2020s.

johnnyskeleton

Prof Tom Garvin has argued that irelands poverty after WWII was due to our unwillingness to change on an institutional level. The rest of Europe availed not just of Marshall aid, but of the chance to reset to zero and start building up a new country.

A short, sharp shock would have been great. Now, we are running to stand still as ever increasing taxes and cuts to front line public services are subsumed by other areas of state spending in welfare and in thr big layer of ps inefficient bureaucrats and the slow moving political system.

It is now very difficult to explain to someone who feels that they have already suffered massive cut backs that our deficit has shrunk hardly at all and where it has is largely due to cuts in thr wrong places.

woodoo

'A third of teachers in Latvia were laid off; the rest have endured savage salary cuts of up to 40 per cent, leaving them barely above the minimum wage.

Many have seen their pension entitlements slashed by 70 per cent'

Poverty for the Public Servants then. Sounds fair???

Dannyboy83

woodoo wrote: »

'A third of teachers in Latvia were laid off; the rest have endured savage salary cuts of up to 40 per cent, leaving them barely above the minimum wage.

Many have seen their pension entitlements slashed by 70 per cent'

Poverty for the Public Servants then. Sounds fair???

The point is, Latvia cut from a much lower starting position.
We had far more room to cut.

Teachers in Ireland were starting on €35,000 per annum in 2009.
We would have had to cut by 60% to reach a proportionally similar situation as Lativa for example.

Pension entitlements in Latvia fell by 70%: Pensions in Ireland are untouched (while PS pensions entitlements were 'slashed' by a whopping 4% to 9%)

not yet

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The point is, Latvia cut from a much lower starting position.
We had far more room to cut.

Teachers in Ireland were starting on €35,000 per annum in 2009.
We would have had to cut by 60% to reach a proportionally similar situation as Lativa for example.

Pension entitlements in Latvia fell by 70%: Pensions in Ireland are untouched (while PS pensions entitlements were 'slashed' by a whopping 4% to 9%)

So lets see if I have this straight.......

You want PS workers to have a wage comparible to Latvia, You want the PS cut by anything up to 50%, and all the while the private sector continues on their merry little way. Please don't trot out the bull**** of 430,000 people have taken a 100% paycut because it doesn't wash.

RichardAnd

woodoo wrote: »

'A third of teachers in Latvia were laid off; the rest have endured savage salary cuts of up to 40 per cent, leaving them barely above the minimum wage.

Many have seen their pension entitlements slashed by 70 per cent'

Poverty for the Public Servants then. Sounds fair???

You're right. In fact, when a ship sinks and half the passengers die, the survivors should be shot. Sounds fair to me :rolleyes:

professore

A third of teachers in Latvia were laid off

What were they doing before they were laid off? Who teaches the kids now? We already have huge class sizes here.

murphaph

professore wrote: »

What were they doing before they were laid off? Who teaches the kids now? We already have huge class sizes here.

I'm guessing that they extended the school year and/or teaching day and made the remaining teachers work longer hours for less money. I am sure class sizes still increased in Latvia during this process however.

We don't need to cut as much as Latvia IMO, but we do need to realise that what we've seen so far has not been real austerity-Latvia and Greece have endured true austerity. Ireland has not, not yet.

Further cuts are inevitable in Ireland.

Dannyboy83

not yet wrote: »

You want PS workers to have a wage comparible to Latvia, You want the PS cut by anything up to 50%, and all the while the private sector continues on their merry little way. Please don't trot out the bull**** of 430,000 people have taken a 100% paycut because it doesn't wash.

Please don't put moronic words in my mouth.:rolleyes:

As I already pointed out, Latvia started from a much lower position.
It would have taken a cut of 60% for us to reach the same proportionate level - we had much more room to take our medicine but we wouldn't.

As for the private sector continuing on their merry little way - it's time for a dose of reality I'd suggest.

Dannyboy83

murphaph wrote: »

We don't need to cut as much as Latvia IMO, but we do need to realise that what we've seen so far has not been real austerity-Latvia and Greece have endured true austerity. Ireland has not, not yet.

Further cuts are inevitable in Ireland.

I don't think further cuts are inevitable. Unfortunately.
I think silly tax increases are inevitable.
For some reason, members of the forum imagine that is some type of victory for them.

Do people not realise that, wheter it's a cut or a ax increase, you lose either way?
So say you're earning 50k.
Your net income is currently 35k.
If you took a cut, you net income may be 30k.
But if you don't take a cut, and DO take a tax increase, your net income is still 30k.

The difference is that through the cut method, you had the potential to earn more again.
Through the taxation method, you lose the potential to earn more, forever.


After December 7th, we will see that our net incomes are going to shrink and shrink through taxation.
So - instead of tackling the people who are overpaid through cuts (and rewarding productive employees), we are going to dis-incentivise everyone in the country, public & private, underproductive and overproductive, from ever working harder once they pass over the SRCOP.

The Outside Agency

In Latvia, tax for buildings and land is 1.5% when used for business and 3% for agricultural land not in use, farmers are exempt I believe providing the land is used for agricultural purposes.

3% on agricultural land not in use prevents speculation by domestic and foreign investors while also helping the economy be more productive.

Ireland could learn from Latvia in that area..

I'd expect the Irish government to increase taxes on labour instead since that helps the bankers and speculators make money.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

I'm guessing that they extended the school year and/or teaching day and made the remaining teachers work longer hours for less money. I am sure class sizes still increased in Latvia during this process however.

We don't need to cut as much as Latvia IMO, but we do need to realise that what we've seen so far has not been real austerity-Latvia and Greece have endured true austerity. Ireland has not, not yet.

Further cuts are inevitable in Ireland.

Oh dear,yet another big Fuppin Elephant siting in the Stateroom......
Do we have any direct comparitors with UK/EU academic terms.....? I am confident that our Teachers are working a significantly shorter working year than our EU associates..;)

not yet

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Please don't put moronic words in my mouth.:rolleyes:

As I already pointed out, Latvia started from a much lower position.
It would have taken a cut of 60% for us to reach the same proportionate level - we had much more room to take our medicine but we wouldn't.

As for the private sector continuing on their merry little way - it's time for a dose of reality I'd suggest.

Same old crap trotted out in the indo and jumped on by people who 5 years ago didn't give a flying fcuk about what the PS earned......

Jump forward 5 years, the banks ruin the country and like magic...

Lets blame the PS sector, cut this,slash that. You can come up with any sh1te you like, the bottom line is the bulk of PS earn just above the avg industrial wage. Get use to it and join the Q with the rest of the whingers.

Have a good day now.

Dannyboy83

not yet wrote: »

Same old crap trotted out in the indo and jumped on by people who 5 years ago didn't give a flying fcuk about what the PS earned......

Jump forward 5 years, the banks ruin the country and like magic...

Lets blame the PS sector, cut this,slash that. You can come up with any sh1te you like, the bottom line is the bulk of PS earn just above the avg industrial wage. Get use to it and join the Q with the rest of the whingers.

Have a good day now.

I suggest you acquant yourself with this post before you post any further ignorant statements in the thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63181034&postcount=9

I don't need to "come up with any old sh1te you like".
The facts are good enough for me, Thank you very much.

Public sector spending can be reformed substantially, before you ever even need to consider the income of the ordinary employees or layoffs.

In 1999, the Public Sector Pay & Pension Bill was €10 billion per annum.
In 2009, the Public Sector Pay & Pension Bill was €20 billion per annum.

Do try to grasp however, that 'State Sector Spending' does not equal 'Public Sector Pay & Pensions'. It's a catchall, for 'State Sector' spending funnily enough.

johnners2981

Can someone please tell me how many hours a teacher works?

7 (if even) classes x 35min x 5 days= 20.5 hours weekly max. And there are a lot of lazy teachers out there who don't bother with lesson plans and hw correction

And not to mention a lot of teachers don't even work that. Especially in dublin with hdip students being taken on and teaching their classes.

I know not all teachers have it this easy but you can see why people aren't happy with the ps

not yet

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I suggest you acquant yourself with this post before you post any further ignorant statements in the thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63181034&postcount=9

I don't need to "come up with any old sh1te you like".
The facts are good enough for me, Thank you very much.

Public sector spending can be reformed substantially, before you ever even need to consider the income of the ordinary employees or layoffs.

In 1999, the Public Sector Pay & Pension Bill was €10 billion per annum.
In 2009, the Public Sector Pay & Pension Bill was €20 billion per annum.

Do try to grasp however, that 'State Sector Spending' does not equal 'Public Sector Pay & Pensions'. It's a catchall, for 'State Sector' spending funnily enough.

Yeah your right sorry..................

Solair

There's one big difference. If you reduced teachers wages in ireland to minimum wage levels, they'd all emigrate or change career.

Irish people are a hell of a lot more mobile because they speak English and don't think twice about going to Australia, Canada etc where their skills are in demand and their qualifications are more or less recognised with minor tweaks.

I am not saying we can't cut some high wages back, but go too far and we'll have another problem on our hands.

Sleepy

Without wanting to put words in the OP's mouth, he was never suggesting cutting their salaries to minimum wage, merely pointing out that there is plenty of room there for cuts.

ardmacha

I am confident that our Teachers are working a significantly shorter working year than our EU associates..

Not according to the OECD. Primary teachers are at the top end, and secondary in the top half of contact hours.




however many times you post this it still comes......

I am confident that our public transport is well behind European norms though.

Head The Wall

They spend longer teaching and get worse results, that's not money well spent if you ask me.

They should get their pay cut until they prove that they are doing a good job, it's better than the current situation.

jimmycrackcorm

not yet wrote: »

So lets see if I have this straight.......

You want PS workers to have a wage comparible to Latvia, You want the PS cut by anything up to 50%, and all the while the private sector continues on their merry little way. Please don't trot out the bull**** of 430,000 people have taken a 100% paycut because it doesn't wash.

How about that Teachers should start at €25k like IT graduates for example. And that's before we get into the holiday and pensions comparisons...

The Outside Agency

I spoke with german teaching graduate not that long ago and he told me teachers in germany start out on around 10k per year and could expect to get 37.5k per annum with experience...

from what i understand, teachers in ireland would probably start on 37k but i guess that's peanuts.

ardmacha

I spoke with german teaching graduate not that long ago and he told me teachers in germany start out on around 10k per year and could expect to get 37.5k per annum with experience...

Was he/she a kindergarten teacher?

According to the OECD, secondary teachers in Germany got €68,861 with experience in 2008, €500 more than in Ireland, pre cuts.

Indeed those in Germany in upper secondary education get €77,628.

Perhaps you should write to the OECD and tell them that they are wrong.

#15

nivekd wrote: »

I spoke with german teaching graduate not that long ago and he told me teachers in germany start out on around 10k per year and could expect to get 37.5k per annum with experience...

from what i understand, teachers in ireland would probably start on 37k but i guess that's peanuts.

My girlfriend is a teacher in Duesseldorf. During the training period they are on a low wage, but they do not have a full teaching load. They attend lectures and observe other teachers. They only teach a few classes a week.

You are not comparing like with like. When she finished the training period and was actually a teacher, she went onto the scale that Ardmacha has already cited from the OECD report. Obviously she is not at the top of the scale yet though.

headthewall wrote:

They spend longer teaching and get worse results

That's not how it works. Time spent in the classroom is not one of the most significant factors in educational outcomes.
You could bump it up to 60 hours a week, and it wouldn't matter in the slightest.
Ireland's overhyped 'problems' are not due to overall teaching hours.

#15

nivekd wrote: »

the man told me what a teacher gets paid, end of.

And I just clarified it for you. You don't honestly think that public servants with beamte status in Germany earn just 10k a year for their whole lives? That doesn't sound slightly off to you?

#15

nivekd wrote: »

Did I rebut your clarification?

Ah right, you're just ignoring it then. Carry on.

ardmacha

20 euro says you are a teacher and indicative of why Ireland's education is ****e.

Are you betting me that I am a teacher?

and indicative of why Ireland's education is ****e.

OK, so because I quote an international research organisation, it is indicative that Ireland's education is ****e?

That's the problem with this forum, too many "statistics" from hearsay and people who met fellows in pubs and not enough from reputable international organisations.

not yet

ardmacha wrote: »

Was he/she a kindergarten teacher?

According to the OECD, secondary teachers in Germany got €68,861 with experience in 2008, €500 more than in Ireland, pre cuts.

Indeed those in Germany in upper secondary education get €77,628.

Perhaps you should write to the OECD and tell them that they are wrong.

Ah sure don't let a simple thing like facts get in the way of spouting out crap to suit one's agenda.....

beagle001

You cannot generalise teachers as the same accross the board.
Some teachers are posted to nitemare schools with very troublesome pupils,overcrowding lack of job security for new teachers.
Then on the other hand some have it very handy,better still take a look at university lecturers,nobody mentions them on their massive salaries and short semesters compared to their colleagues in the UK.
I worked in a University in the Uk and it has gotten very tough over there never mind that a senior lecturer is on probably the same as a primary school teacher here, and now every academic must reapply for their position,over worked and under paid.
To compare Ireland to latvia is not credible,completley opposite countries,they have nowhere near the personal debt that people have here and it would not be credible to cut the salaries to their extent.
Before you ask I am not P.S but i am getting very tired of people targeting teachers and nurses who did not cause this mess,the scum developers are being paid 200k by Nama and its their fault coupled with reckless banking that has screwed the whole country but people still moan about targeting the P.S or the less well off on welfare.
If we put as much energy into directing our anger at this mess at the people who caused it maybe we could move forward instead they have saddled Ireland with unpayable debt and they still ask for more.

not yet

nivekd wrote: »

20 euro says you are a teacher and indicative of why Ireland's education is ****e.

the man told me what a teacher gets paid, end of.

Please,please please stop......cause if I say what I want to say I'll get banned................a man only has so much tolerance to sh1te.

not yet

nivekd wrote: »

ignore what exactly?

i read your post and didn't respond and now you're throwing a little tantrum about it...

what do you want me to say? i agree with you?

you're right, everyone else is wrong...happy?

Any chance you could start a sentence with a capital letter..........

What was that you said about education.

#15

nivekd wrote: »

as i said before..teachers in ireland are overpaid and underworked and that's my opinion

If only we had a major comparative study of developed nations, we'd be able to confirm that.

The Outside Agency

23% of males in ireland illiterate but Ireland has a knowledge economy...the whole country would collapse without our exceptional world class education system and it's overpaid teachers.

The Outside Agency

#15 wrote: »

If only we had a major comparative study of developed nations, we'd be able to confirm that.

just take a look at literacy levels and compare with rest of the world, job done.

see how well teachers do their job?

OMD

nivekd wrote: »

just take a look at literacy levels and compare with rest of the world, job done.

see how well teachers do their job?

That's only one side of the story. How about how well Irish students do at languages and maths?

Oh no maybe not.

#15

nivekd wrote: »

just take a look at literacy levels and compare with rest of the world, job done.

I have. They are in the average range, same as Germany, UK, Sweden, etc.
Honestly though, it's been done to death on these boards man.

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

Was he/she a kindergarten teacher?

According to the OECD, secondary teachers in Germany got €68,861 with experience in 2008, €500 more than in Ireland, pre cuts.

Indeed those in Germany in upper secondary education get €77,628.

Perhaps you should write to the OECD and tell them that they are wrong.

Sorry I'm too tired to comment at the moment, will do so tomorrow.
Just wanted to point out that Germany are near the very top of the scale.

ILikeBananas

Fascinating how a thread about IMF cuts in Latvia can end up getting sidetracked on the topic of teachers salaries in germany.

The Outside Agency

Ireland is ranked 43rd in the world for economic output and Germany is 4th.

But I suppose that's not relevant..if it weren't for Germany, Irish teachers would be paid with toilet roll.

CrystalLettuce

And how is Latvia doing now exactly? And how will it be doing in 5 years time?

Slash and burn destroys economies in the long run, and often in the shorter term too. It's a bad idea and the reasoning behind it is almost always ideological rather than pragmatic.

Don't listen too closely to guys like the OP. We're already in enough of a trap where we think Austerity is the only way out. Certain cuts need to be made in the name of efficiency, but severely dropping government spending, slashing wages of public servants and welfare is a great way to take money into the economy.

There's all this talk of "But where's the money going to come from?" but if you implement these measures, there isn't going to be "Money" going through our economy for a very, very long time. The answer is frustrating and not easy, since you seem damned if you do and damned if you don't. But one thing should be clear - lazy slash & burn and severe austerity on their own 9 times out of 10 do more harm than good.

Economic neo-liberals are giving off a kind of death cry now when their methods have once again been proven not to work.

Dannyboy83

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

And how is Latvia doing now exactly? And how will it be doing in 5 years time?

Try read the OP?

Slash and burn destroys economies in the long run, and often in the shorter term too. It's a bad idea and the reasoning behind it is almost always ideological rather than pragmatic.

I agree that Slash & Burn is bad.
Good thing we're not talking about Slash & Burn then I suppose....

Don't listen too closely to guys like the OP. We're already in enough of a trap where we think Austerity is the only way out. Certain cuts need to be made in the name of efficiency, but severely dropping government spending, slashing wages of public servants and welfare is a great way to take money into the economy.

I think you mean "Reforming government spending is a great way to take borrowed money out of the economy" ????

The only other alternative of course, is large tax increases.....please don't tell me you believe this keeps money in the economy?

There's all this talk of "But where's the money going to come from?" but if you implement these measures, there isn't going to be "Money" going through our economy for a very, very long time. The answer is frustrating and not easy, since you seem damned if you do and damned if you don't. But one thing should be clear - lazy slash & burn and severe austerity on their own 9 times out of 10 do more harm than good.

This is irrational and the opposite of the truth.

If you cannot afford to repay borrowed money, then you cannot afford to borrow more & are too risky to be lent to, then you cannot afford to inflate your economy beyond what is sustainable without borrowing.
You are forced to return to normality.
This is what prevents any influx of capital 'for a very, very long time'.

When you've returned to normality, you're no longer such a risk and can afford to borrow again.

Economic neo-liberals are giving off a kind of death cry now when their methods have once again been proven not to work.

I haven't the foggiest what you're on about here, but we've seen that unsustainable borrowing has already come to an end. With the exception of the ECB.