Another rules query?

big_drive

Playing this morning when following happened;

Drive off on 17th hole, well struck drive but drifted left towards a ditch and trees which run down left side, looked very dodgy. So decided to hit a provisional which went down middle.

Myself and playing partners went looking for ball and spent maybe 3 mins searching, no sign of ball so I said we'd move on as I wasn't on a good score.
So I went into centre of fairway and hit the prvisional ball. One of the playing partners kept looking during this and actually found first ball just after I hit the shot.

Both playing partners told me to play the first ball but i picked up as I felt this was right thing to do as I'd already played the provisional ball and in my own mind had classed the 1st ball as lost.

What are the rules surrounding this type of situation?

fullstop

big_drive wrote: »

Playing this morning when following happened;

Drive off on 17th hole, well struck drive but drifted left towards a ditch and trees which run down left side, looked very dodgy. So decided to hit a provisional which went down middle.

Myself and playing partners went looking for ball and spent maybe 3 mins searching, no sign of ball so I said we'd move on as I wasn't on a good score.
So I went into centre of fairway and hit the prvisional ball. One of the playing partners kept looking during this and actually found first ball just after I hit the shot.

Both playing partners told me to play the first ball but i picked up as I felt this was right thing to do as I'd already played the provisional ball and in my own mind had classed the 1st ball as lost.

What are the rules surrounding this type of situation?

You were right. You can only play the provisional until the point you reach the first ball and by stopping searching and continuing playing the provisional ball you were, in effect, declaring the first ball lost.

Sandwlch

fullstop wrote: »

declaring the first ball lost.

Ooooohhh.

Take cover fullstop ................

fullstop

Sandwlch wrote: »

Ooooohhh.

Take cover fullstop ................

Why

whizbang

If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

So only if the Provo was nearer the hole than the first ball, then you must play the first ball

AldilaMan

fullstop wrote: »

Why

Cos PhilipMarlowe (formerly Licksy) has a problem with people declaring their ball lost.

k.p.h

AldilaMan wrote: »

Cos PhilipMarlowe (formerly Licksy) has a problem with people declaring their ball lost.

Discussed on another thread , was very informative but can't find it with search. Dose anyone remember what thread it was ..?

fullstop

AldilaMan wrote: »

fullstop wrote: »

Why

Cos PhilipMarlowe (formerly Licksy) has a problem with people declaring their ball lost.

You can declare your ball lost anytime you want as long as you can't see the ball.

PhilipMarlowe

GreeBo

fullstop wrote: »

You can declare your ball lost anytime you want as long as you can't see the ball.

Myksyk

fullstop wrote: »

You can declare your ball lost anytime you want as long as you can't see the ball.

A player cannot declare his ball lost verbally. He does so by putting another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance by dropping a ball in play or hitting off the tee. The importance of this is that if a player just SAYS his ball is lost and it is then found within five minutes or before he puts another ball in play the original ball is in fact NOT lost and is the ball in play.

AldilaMan

k.p.h wrote: »

Discussed on another thread , was very informative but can't find it with search. Dose anyone remember what thread it was ..?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056339975

And another here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72483338

aubreym

you are allowed to play your provisional ball beyond the point where you think your original ball is, within the 5 min timeframe, so if original ball was found, i think, it should still be in play.

if you did not hit a provisional ball & went back to the tee, the second you place or drop a 2nd ball, it can not longer be a provisional & that ball is in play, regardless of finding the original ball.

charlieIRL

aubreym wrote: »

you are allowed to play your provisional ball beyond the point where you think your original ball is, within the 5 min timeframe, so if original ball was found, i think, it should still be in play.

if you did not hit a provisional ball & went back to the tee, the second you place or drop a 2nd ball, it can not longer be a provisional & that ball is in play, regardless of finding the original ball.

From my understanding once you play the provisional the first ball is immediately taken out of play.

fullstop

GreeBo wrote: »

fullstop wrote: »

You can declare your ball lost anytime you want as long as you can't see the ball.

Facepalm pic, really? Aren't you supposed to be a moderator?
I didn't word my reply very well, but yes you can declare your ball lost at any time you want by putting another ball in play. In the case of the OP, once he went and put the provisional in play, the original ball is in effect declared lost.

What I meant by once you can't see it, I meant if you go to look for your ball in trees or the like and decide you don't want to find it, you can declare it lost so long as you haven't seen the ball (ie. found it).

There was a famous case of this on the 72nd hole of a PGA Tour event 6 or 7 years ago when Mickelson was leading by 2 or 3 playing the last. He hit his tee shot into trees, hit a provisional down the middle. He went to look for the first one and decided he didn't want to find it so stopped looking and asked the crowd to stop looking so he could play the provisional and declare the first one lost. Maybe you should look that up before posting that stupid picture...

fullstop

aubreym wrote: »

you are allowed to play your provisional ball beyond the point where you think your original ball is, within the 5 min timeframe, so if original ball was found, i think, it should still be in play.

No you're not. You are only allowed play your provisional up to the point where the original ball is likely to be. Once you play beyond this, the provisional becomes the ball in play (rule 27-2b). As he had already searched for the original ball, he obviously felt he had reached where it was before continuing with the provisional.

aubreym

<snip>
There was a famous case of this on the 72nd hole of a PGA Tour event 6 or 7 years ago when Mickelson was leading by 2 or 3 playing the last. He hit his tee shot into trees, hit a provisional down the middle. He went to look for the first one and decided he didn't want to find it so stopped looking and asked the crowd to stop looking so he could play the provisional and declare the first one lost. Maybe you should look that up before posting that stupid picture...

this is incorrect, as if the ball is found, by anyone, including an opponent or spectator within 5 minutes, it must be played & provisional abandoned.

unless, mickelson never declared it a provisional ball before hitting it, it automatically is in play.

<snip>
You are only allowed play your provisional up to the point where the original ball is likely to be.

=> sorry, i worded it incorrectly. you can play the provisional any number of times until it gets beyond the point of the original ball, as it speeds up play.

eg, provo is 80 yards before spot where original may lay. you can then hit your 4th , as long as its within 5 min timeframe.

fullstop

aubreym wrote: »

this is incorrect, as if the ball is found, by anyone, including an opponent or spectator within 5 minutes, it must be played & provisional abandoned.

unless, mickelson never declared it a provisional ball before hitting it, it automatically is in play.

Point still stands. As a matter of fact the ball was found by a spectator just after Mickelson asked a PGA official to stop spectators looking for the ball so he had to go back to the tee. Now I don't know about you, but there generally aren't many spectators around when I'm playing on a Saturday morning and I don't think most playing partners would search if you asked them not to unless they wanted to fall out with you.

The Mickelson case was actually the 2001 Buick Invitational.

PhilipMarlowe

Please stop using "declare lost" when you're discussing rules. It has absolutely no meaning and what's worse, the more people see it and hear it, the more they'll believe it. The act of saying that your ball is lost ("I declare that ball lost") doesn't make it so - other stuff happening makes it lost such as not being able to find it on time, putting another ball into play, playing a provisional from a point closer to the hole...

In the case of Mickelson, he may have declared his intention to not bother looking for the original and maybe he declared his intention to continue with his provisional but until he made a stroke at his provisional from up the fairway or 5 minutes had expired since he began to 'search' for his original, then his original ball was still the ball in play and if found would have had to be played (or declared unplayable etc.) and the provisional abandoned.

When "declare lost" is used, people think that just by saying the words they then don't have to play the original assuming someone (opponent, fellow competitor) finds it in the middle of a gorse bush while their provisional is bombed down the middle.

BoardsMember

Nice explanation.

Maybe someone can declare this thread closed?

AldilaMan

aubreym wrote: »

<snip>
There was a famous case of this on the 72nd hole of a PGA Tour event 6 or 7 years ago when Mickelson was leading by 2 or 3 playing the last. He hit his tee shot into trees, hit a provisional down the middle. He went to look for the first one and decided he didn't want to find it so stopped looking and asked the crowd to stop looking so he could play the provisional and declare the first one lost. Maybe you should look that up before posting that stupid picture...

this is incorrect, as if the ball is found, by anyone, including an opponent or spectator within 5 minutes, it must be played & provisional abandoned.

unless, mickelson never declared it a provisional ball before hitting it, it automatically is in play.

<snip>
You are only allowed play your provisional up to the point where the original ball is likely to be.

=> sorry, i worded it incorrectly. you can play the provisional any number of times until it gets beyond the point of the original ball, as it speeds up play.

eg, provo is 80 yards before spot where original may lay. you can then hit your 4th , as long as its within 5 min timeframe.

5 minute timeframe is irrelevant. You can spend 10 minutes hitting 5 shots to the point where you estimate your 1st ball to be. The 5 minute clock only starts when you reach that point. This can be seen regularly on the PGA Tour where the player walks very slowly to where his ball went, giving the spectators additional time to search before his 5 minutes begin.

AldilaMan

fullstop wrote: »

You were right. You can only play the provisional until the point you reach the first ball and by stopping searching and continuing playing the provisional ball you were, in effect, declaring the first ball lost.

Sandwlch wrote: »

Ooooohhh.

Take cover fullstop ................

fullstop wrote: »

Why

AldilaMan wrote: »

Cos PhilipMarlowe (formerly Licksy) has a problem with people declaring their ball lost.

You were warned

GreeBo

aubreym wrote: »

you can play the provisional any number of times until it gets beyond the point of the original ball, as it speeds up play.

It doesnt matter if you hit the ball and it lands past where you think the original was. The provo only becomes the ball in play when you make a stroke at it on or beyond the likely positon of the original ball.

stockdam

GreeBo wrote: »

It doesnt matter if you hit the ball and it lands past where you think the original was. The provo only becomes the ball in play when you make a stroke at it on or beyond the likely positon of the original ball.

This is the bit that I have a problem with.

For example, you believe that your first ball is in the deep rough so you hit a provisional which lands in the fairway "further" than the original ball. You look for a couple of minutes but it is obvious that you won't find the original so you hit another shot with the provisional. If however your partner/opponent now spots a ball on an adjacent fairway and you go over and it is your ball and it is closer to the hole than the point where you played the 2nd shot of your provisional then what happens? (I think that you don't need to state that the 2nd shot with the provisional is still a provisional as the provisional stays a provisional until the first ball is "Lost".

However you played your 2nd shot with the provisional ball at a point which you considered to be closer to the hole........everybody thought that the first ball was in the long grass. It now is clear that this wasn't the case but the rules state that you should carry on with the provisional as everybody thought that the original ball was further ball in the rough.

This is where I think it could be very confusing as people would not state what they believed until after the event. In a match, in the unlikely event that you holed your 2nd shot with your provisional then your opponent would ask you to play the original ball and would say "I actually thought that your ball carried the rough".

GreeBo

stockdam wrote: »

This is the bit that I have a problem with.

For example, you believe that your first ball is in the deep rough so you hit a provisional which lands in the fairway "further" than the original ball. You look for a couple of minutes but it is obvious that you won't find the original so you hit another shot with the provisional. If however your partner/opponent now spots a ball on an adjacent fairway and you go over and it is your ball and it is closer to the hole than the point where you played the 2nd shot of your provisional then what happens? (I think that you don't need to state that the 2nd shot with the provisional is still a provisional as the provisional stays a provisional until the first ball is "Lost".

However you played your 2nd shot with the provisional ball at a point which you considered to be closer to the hole........everybody thought that the first ball was in the long grass. It now is clear that this wasn't the case but the rules state that you should carry on with the provisional as everybody thought that the original ball was further ball in the rough.

This is where I think it could be very confusing as people would not state what they believed until after the event. In a match, in the unlikely event that you holed your 2nd shot with your provisional then your opponent would ask you to play the original ball and would say "I actually thought that your ball carried the rough".

I always declare that I'm hitting my provisional again as I do not believe I have reached my original yet. Its hardly ever a point of contention, but if it is then I would look for the original first.
If I dont find it and it turns out that it was further away then tough. Same as if I dont find it until after the 5 mins IMO.