Most likely starships

Cork boy 55

Assuming intelligent alien life exists, what are the most likely starships these spacefaring species will build based on known technology? The universe is extremely big so there could be many exotic star drives out there well beyond our understanding. I'm more interested in simple ideas a young species like us might use.

AlmightyCushion

I don't really understand what you mean by "most likely starships". Are you talking about propulsion technology?

Cork boy 55

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I don't really understand what you mean by "most likely starships". Are you talking about propulsion technology?

A starship is a theoretical spacecraft designed for traveling between the stars, as opposed to a vehicle designed for orbital spaceflight or interplanetary travel.

helimachoptor

I think we know what they are. Are you referring purely to the asthetics?
i.e. will it be an Enterprise D or a Bir of Prey?

AlmightyCushion

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

A starship is a theoretical spacecraft designed for traveling between the stars, as opposed to a vehicle designed for orbital spaceflight or interplanetary travel.

I understand what a star ship is but I still don't understand what you want to know. It's like asking someone in 1920 what car will be used 100 years from then. They wouldn't be able to answer it because they would have no way to know we'd be driving ford focus' or opel astras or whatever but they may be able to theorise about the technology used in that car. So, are you asking about the types of technology they would use to achieve interstellar travel?

Rubecula

We are delving into the bounds of sci fi I think but if so, then there are more than one possibility.

1. FTL (faster than light) The laws of physics as we know them say this is impossible.

2. Hyperspace, basically leaving this universe, and travelling in that medium, before re-entering this universe at a destination.

3. Space warp, where the space around us is 'warped' to allow travel to distant places.

4. Generation ships, generations of people live and work in huge ships until a destination is reached.

5. Suspended animation. (Not mutually exclusive to any of the others.)

6. Proxy. More than one form. a/ send robots. (this could already describe the Voyager missions) b/ Suspended animation but with 'mind' control over mechanical 'men' crew members.

As I said all currently in the realms of sci fi. Happy to talk about any of them, let me know which you mean.

Amtmann

Faster than light seems possible given the recent announcement.

BULLER

Tremelo wrote: »

Faster than light seems possible given the recent announcement.

Yeah, but then your starship would have to look something like this!

AugustusMinimus

Tremelo wrote: »

Faster than light seems possible given the recent announcement.

There's a possibility it might be due to neutrinos having negative mass.

tricky D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

for us

Cork boy 55

Regarding Human made starships

At your current level of tech both theoretical and practical can we

Build

(a) A robot probe capable of reaching your nearest star*
(b) communicating with this probe when it gets there.
(c) keeping its power on to before useful functions Taking pictures looking at planets so on.
(d) what speed can we get for this starship.

In otherwords can humans send a working starship probe to another star
In near future.

* Proxima Centauri
4.2 light years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri

mooliki

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Regarding Human made starships

At your current level of tech both theoretical and practical can we

Build

(a) A robot probe capable of reaching your nearest star*
(b) communicating with this probe when it gets there.
(c) keeping its power on to before useful functions Taking pictures looking at planets so on.
(d) what speed can we get for this starship.

In otherwords can humans send a working starship probe to another star
In near future.

* Proxima Centauri
4.2 light years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri

Not familiar myself on the subject, but from that same Wiki page;

...they move relatively slowly, at about 17 km/s, requiring well over 10,000 years to travel each light-year.

...a slow-moving probe would have only several tens of thousands of years to catch Proxima Centauri near its closest approach, and could end up watching it recede into the distance.

If current, non-nuclear propulsion were used, a voyage of a spacecraft to a planet orbiting Proxima Centauri would probably require thousands of years. Nuclear pulse propulsion encompasses several technologies which might enable such interstellar travel with a trip timescale of a century, beginning within the next century.

I must say, it's quite odd how you word phrases as "human-made", "your current level" or "your nearest star". Is this a case of interstellar espionage?

howamidifferent

[QUOTE=mooliki;79254601
I must say, it's quite odd how you word phrases as "human-made", "your current level" or "your nearest star". Is this a case of interstellar espionage?[/QUOTE]


:eek: :eek: :eek:

shizz

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Regarding Human made starships

At your current level of tech both theoretical and practical can we

Build

(a) A robot probe capable of reaching your nearest star*
(b) communicating with this probe when it gets there.
(c) keeping its power on to before useful functions Taking pictures looking at planets so on.
(d) what speed can we get for this starship.

In otherwords can humans send a working starship probe to another star
In near future.

* Proxima Centauri
4.2 light years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri

We can send one all right but it will not reach it in your lifetime, your kids lifetime, your kids kids lifetime, your kids kids kids lifetime, your kids kids kids kids lifetime.... etc.

Communicating I would say no. Haven't looked it up but I can't imagine so.

It would require a huge power source to still be working at that lifetime.

Not very fast at all.

Capt'n Midnight

solar sail + fricken massive lasers mean IIRC you could get a probe up to 1/10th the speed of light , so visit to alpha centuri is possible within a life time

power levels needed are massive, and lots of technical challenges, but doesn't require 'new physics'


The thing to remember about a generation ship is that once it goes past the point of no return the passengers have to keep going. I liked the idea of Rama where the spacecraft used biological systems to self repair.


Suspended animation would solve lots of problems, though I reckon there may need to be periods of revival en route for cellular damage repair.



Thing to remember is that mammalian reproduction is uniquely disadvantaged for cyropreservation. Human embryos up to 8 cells can be frozen. But for other vertebrates and invertebrates and plants and eukaryotes and eukaryotes development can take place in an egg or seed so the whole organism could probably be frozen, thawed , grown to adulthood and educated quite easily compared to mammals.

Unless ET is a mammal they will find it very easy to start colonies.

We could too if we could figure out a way of preserving an artificial womb.
But at the very worst, using attainable technology, we could send out enough life forms so that much of our eco-systems could be in place before we send out generation ships.

A - terraforming of sterile planets, bacteria and waterbears , nematodes, plants and stuff
B - larger organisms fish , frogs, lizards, birds
possibly marsupials or bears or shrews or bats (small baby may be easier to freeze)
C - Generation ship , like Noah's ark to cater for mammals like us.

Option B2, breeding / genetic engineering intelligent birds and octopus - might be the easiest way for us to seed the galaxy with intelligent life

Rubecula

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Option B2, breeding / genetic engineering intelligent birds and octopus - might be the easiest way for us to seed the galaxy with intelligent life

Dunno about you, but an octopus playing Brahms or reciting Shakespeare would give me the screaming ab-dabs.

Cork boy 55

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

solar sail + fricken massive lasers mean IIRC you could get a probe up to 1/10th the speed of light , so visit to alpha centuri is possible within a life time

power levels needed are massive, and lots of technical challenges, but doesn't require 'new physics'


The thing to remember about a generation ship is that once it goes past the point of no return the passengers have to keep going. I liked the idea of Rama where the spacecraft used biological systems to self repair.


Suspended animation would solve lots of problems, though I reckon there may need to be periods of revival en route for cellular damage repair.



Thing to remember is that mammalian reproduction is uniquely disadvantaged for cyropreservation. Human embryos up to 8 cells can be frozen. But for other vertebrates and invertebrates and plants and eukaryotes and eukaryotes development can take place in an egg or seed so the whole organism could probably be frozen, thawed , grown to adulthood and educated quite easily compared to mammals.

Unless ET is a mammal they will find it very easy to start colonies.

We could too if we could figure out a way of preserving an artificial womb.
But at the very worst, using attainable technology, we could send out enough life forms so that much of our eco-systems could be in place before we send out generation ships.

A - terraforming of sterile planets, bacteria and waterbears , nematodes, plants and stuff
B - larger organisms fish , frogs, lizards, birds
possibly marsupials or bears or shrews or bats (small baby may be easier to freeze)
C - Generation ship , like Noah's ark to cater for mammals like us.

Option B2, breeding / genetic engineering intelligent birds and octopus - might be the easiest way for us to seed the galaxy with intelligent life

After the technological singularity occurs in the 2030s
We will evolve quite rapidly into cyborgs and the
limits of mammalian reproduction for cyropreservation will be overcome.


Futurist Ray Kurzweil details the technology timeline leading up to 2029 including the downsides to Singularity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIzS1uCOcE

shizz

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

After the technological singularity occurs in the 2030s
We will evolve quite rapidly into cyborgs and the
limits of mammalian reproduction for cyropreservation will be overcome.


Futurist Ray Kurzweil details the technology timeline leading up to 2029 including the downsides to Singularity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIzS1uCOcE

Waaaaaat?

Haven't the time to watch the video, will later, but.... waaaaat? How can anyone say that with certainty.

Cork boy 55

shizz wrote: »

Waaaaaat?

Haven't the time to watch the video, will later, but.... waaaaat? How can anyone say that with certainty.

The technological singularity will result from a combination of three important technologies of the 21st century: genetics, nanotechnology, and robotics (including artificial intelligence).

The Singularity Is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology
After a technological singularity in the mid-21st century that merges our biology with our technology, we would proceed to convert all matter into artificial intelligence, make use of all the elementary particles in our vicinity, and expand outward at speeds that eventually exceed the speed of light, ultimately saturating the entire universe with out intelligence in just a few centuries
The date is uncertain but it will happen
Time magazine(adult edition) has predicted 2045

cover story last year

kippy

Why would you travel between stars? You'd be vapourised at the first one you arrived at.......
Solar systems or planets maybe, a better chance of survival.

shizz

kippy wrote: »

Why would you travel between stars? You'd be vapourised at the first one you arrived at.......
Solar systems or planets maybe, a better chance of survival.

mmmm what? Obviously the plan is to travel to solar systems and find suitable planets? If you travel to a star, you HAVE traveled to a solar system. Stars are the light houses in the universe that guide us to where these planets might be. So that's why we say to travel to stars.

seamus

Without an accurate map of a solar system, travelling to the star is really the only practical thing to aim for, of course.

My suspicion would also be that since there's a relatively generous margin for error in terms of estimating the mass, radius and gravity of a star from this distance, the most logical course would be one which aims directly for the estimated centre of the star. This course can then be adjusted over time as the probe gets closer and more accurate measurements can be made.

The singularity is fairly contentious at best. When you consider that pop science in the 1970s expected moon colonies, Jupiter space ships and flying cars by 2001, trying to claim that the world will be a technological utopia in 30 years is doomed to the same embarrassment.
The singularity, if such a thing ever happens, has been claimed to occur anywhere in the next few hundred years. A fairly long timespan in which to expect something to happen.

As for sending a probe to Proxima Centauri now, two things are likely:

1. The human race will lose the ability to contact the probe before it gets there (either because of extinction or civil collapse)
2. Before the probe has even travelled a fraction of its journey, we will have developed faster probes that will make the return journey in a fraction of the time.

In other words, a fairly monumental waste of money.

Myrddin

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

solar sail + fricken massive lasers mean IIRC you could get a probe up to 1/10th the speed of light , so visit to alpha centuri is possible within a life time

But how would such a probe slow down upon reaching its destination? 1/10th the speed of light is an enormous velocity, & far too fast to try & get trapped in the gravity well of a star or planet.

You'd need another laser station at the destination end also really, to decelerate the probe over a vast distance

Capt'n Midnight

EnterNow wrote: »

But how would such a probe slow down upon reaching its destination? 1/10th the speed of light is an enormous velocity, & far too fast to try & get trapped in the gravity well of a star or planet.

You'd need another laser station at the destination end also really, to decelerate the probe over a vast distance

you can use the light of the destination star and stuff

the main mirror sails on and reflects light into the probe that slows down


Or given enough time we could fire it off towards the Hyades star cluster.
153 light years away but it contains over 200 stars within 9 light years.

Myrddin

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

you can use the light of the destination star and stuff

the main mirror sails on and reflects light into the probe that slows down

But at 1/10th the speed of light, surely the light pressure alone from a star isn't enough to decelerate an object in the needed time though?

Capt'n Midnight

EnterNow wrote: »

But at 1/10th the speed of light, surely the light pressure alone from a star isn't enough to decelerate an object in the needed time though?

fricken huge mirrors with bells on them !


and a very very light probe , lets imagine all the sensors and electronics are 3D silicon / mems , you are talking grammes or fractions thereof , all the high powered transmitters would be on the mirror that sails on

Also if colonising you don't need a lot of mass for frozen eggs or seeds or spores since the first stage of terrafroming would not need large organisms.

shizz

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

fricken huge mirrors with bells on them !


and a very very light probe , lets imagine all the sensors and electronics are 3D silicon / mems , you are talking grammes or fractions thereof , all the high powered transmitters would be on the mirror that sails on

Also if colonising you don't need a lot of mass for frozen eggs or seeds or spores since the first stage of terrafroming would not need large organisms.

That's all well and good until we accidentally go and shed our bacteria and life forms on a planet already with life haha.

Capt'n Midnight

shizz wrote: »

That's all well and good until we accidentally go and shed our bacteria and life forms on a planet already with life haha.

that's why you send probes first


of course when the New World Order get into power with their policy of 'Earthers First' you objections will have been noted and you will be one of the first up against the wall. We can make those aliens work in our sugar mines.

Myrddin

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

fricken huge mirrors with bells on them !


and a very very light probe , lets imagine all the sensors and electronics are 3D silicon / mems , you are talking grammes or fractions thereof , all the high powered transmitters would be on the mirror that sails on

True, true

rccaulfield

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

After the technological singularity occurs in the 2030s
We will evolve quite rapidly into cyborgs and the
limits of mammalian reproduction for cyropreservation will be overcome.


Futurist Ray Kurzweil details the technology timeline leading up to 2029 including the downsides to Singularity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIzS1uCOcE

Thats very presumptious, he's looking at patterns from the past to predict the future, i'd be fairly embarrassed saying that in public. I mean theres all sorts of areas of human life that advance for years then stop all of a sudden as a limit is reached. Just because my tv keeps getting bigger every few years doesn't mean it will be bigger then my house in ten years, theres a wall there.

Rubecula

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

After the technological singularity occurs in the 2030s
We will evolve quite rapidly into cyborgs and the
limits of mammalian reproduction for cyropreservation will be overcome.


Futurist Ray Kurzweil details the technology timeline leading up to 2029 including the downsides to Singularity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIzS1uCOcE

You can not predict the future.

You may be able to forecast the future to a degree, but it is not right to say ""XXX will happen by XXX date" Nobody can predict these things.

ciaranmac

Rubecula wrote: »

You can not predict the future.

You may be able to forecast the future to a degree, but it is not right to say ""XXX will happen by XXX date" Nobody can predict these things.

Of course they can predict things. Just not the things that actually happen :rolleyes:

They predicted free electricity, nuclear powered cars and colonies on the moon. They didn't predict Facebook on smartphones.

Rubecula

ciaranmac, you are right of course, and it is my mistake. I predict a great future for you in picking up my mistakes ....

Yes, there have been some pretty wild predictions of the future. Not sure I can come up with any valid ones that have come true mind you.

keane2097

Pretty sure Kurzweil's predictions about the latter half of the last century were fairly accurate.

Rubecula

I would tend to count them as forecasts rather than predictions though.

keane2097

Rubecula wrote: »

I would tend to count them as forecasts rather than predictions though.

Good for you!

forecast
past participle, past tense of fore·cast
Verb:
Predict or estimate (a future event or trend).
Synonyms:
predict - prognosticate - foresee - foretell - anticipate

Rubecula

What I mean is to me a forecast say what MAY happen if things go the way they can, whereas a prediction say what WILL happen, and you can not avoid it.

keane2097

Rubecula wrote: »

What I mean is to me a forecast say what MAY happen if things go the way they can, whereas a prediction say what WILL happen, and you can not avoid it.

Well, whatever way you want to mangle the English language to try and prove a point the documented fact of the matter is he predicted technology developments in the last century with a somewhat impressive degree of accuracy.

Simply redefining what you choose the words to mean is a strange practise and doesn't change or diminish the "achievement" in the slightest.

Rubecula

Not trying to mangle anything. I simply point out that predictions are not ever truly correct. But you are as entitled to your beliefs as I am myself. No argument.

keane2097

There's no argument because the statement "predictions are not ever truly correct" is demonstrably and obviously false.

I predict I will make another post in this thread before 3pm.

keane2097

Prediction 100% "truly" (whatever that means) correct.

QED.

Rubecula

????

Like I said "No argument"

Capt'n Midnight

Predictions for Semiconductor still continue to defy obvious manufacturing limits.

However, they are by the same people who set all the previous 'impossible' targets and based on the industry experience those that are likely to be achievable in the foreseeable future given current knowledge and techniques.

http://www.itrs.net/

The International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors, known throughout the world as the ITRS, is the fifteen-year assessment of the semiconductor industry’s future technology requirements. These future needs drive present-day strategies for world-wide research and development among manufacturers’ research facilities, universities, and national labs.

The latest 'cheat' is 3D chips. For stuff like memory and cache you can stack smaller subunits on top of each other with a common bus. This means you can improve yield since smaller chips are less likely to have defects, the common bus can be made using previous generation technology. A little improvement but it's effects will trickle through our civilization.


For spacecraft it means that the mass and power requirements for computing are reducing all the time.

By 2017 accelerometers 1mm3 using 15uw of power , at a cost of 20c
By 2026 DRAM 1/2 pitch 6.3nm (32 nm now) - so memory per mm2 will go up by a factor of 25, a Terabyte of RAM is in the offing.


Now back to ET.

ET doesn't need quantum mechanics to build generation ships. Even nuclear reactors could have been built by trial and error. Heck if they had something like the Oklo reactor on their planet they could have breed one.

So ET may not have lasers or advanced semiconductors, which means we could reverse engineer, desiminate information and implement their technology faster than they could assimilate ours. Of course they could use microminature mechanisms.

ET might not have such rapid social change for these reasons and may be like Imperial China or Ancient Egypt with grand schemes that take many lifetimes

Rubecula

Purely from my own point of view, I dislike the idea of Generation Ships. They may turn out to be the only really viable way of getting to the stars, but I think that putting unborn generations into a spacecraft without their permission somehow immoral. The first generation may have chosen to go into Space, but their offspring won't have been given the choice.

If it is ever found to be possible my first choice would be some form of FTL.

My second choice would be suspended animation.

As for probes. I think they are all very well and good, but I think it is more in human nature to want to go out there in person.

Not sure what other Boardsies feel and I am only speaking for myself on this, but does anyone agree?

shizz

Rubecula wrote: »

Purely from my own point of view, I dislike the idea of Generation Ships. They may turn out to be the only really viable way of getting to the stars, but I think that putting unborn generations into a spacecraft without their permission somehow immoral. The first generation may have chosen to go into Space, but their offspring won't have been given the choice.

If it is ever found to be possible my first choice would be some form of FTL.

My second choice would be suspended animation.

As for probes. I think they are all very well and good, but I think it is more in human nature to want to go out there in person.

Not sure what other Boardsies feel and I am only speaking for myself on this, but does anyone agree?

Well I can see where you are coming from with generation ships, but I was always under the impression that that idea was from having to pretty much relocating the human race. In that case I don't see it as so.

keane2097

Probably no more immoral than people who left Europe for an uncertain future in the New World really.

seamus

We're all subject to the decisions of our ancestors, so I don't really see an issue there.

The problem I could see with generational ships is that while subsequent generations will grow up on the ship and so will be less susceptible to cabin fever, at the same time they will spend most of their life knowing that they're just a link in a chain and are unlikely to accomplish anything new or experience anything new.

A generational ship is great for the first generation and the last, but for all the generations in between, it could be a bit of a dull existence.

Which could lead to someone going postal or other social issues on board.

shizz

seamus wrote: »

We're all subject to the decisions of our ancestors, so I don't really see an issue there.

The problem I could see with generational ships is that while subsequent generations will grow up on the ship and so will be less susceptible to cabin fever, at the same time they will spend most of their life knowing that they're just a link in a chain and are unlikely to accomplish anything new or experience anything new.

A generational ship is great for the first generation and the last, but for all the generations in between, it could be a bit of a dull existence.

Which could lead to someone going postal or other social issues on board.

Yeah it does seem like a big issue. But that notion could be kept from the majority and probably would be. How would they know any different?

It's a pretty cool thought though. Somewhere there could be a generation ship just endlessly floating through the galaxy.

Rubecula

keane2097 wrote: »

Probably no more immoral than people who left Europe for an uncertain future in the New World really.

Very true, I had not thought of it in that way.

seamus wrote: »

We're all subject to the decisions of our ancestors, so I don't really see an issue there.

The problem I could see with generational ships is that while subsequent generations will grow up on the ship and so will be less susceptible to cabin fever, at the same time they will spend most of their life knowing that they're just a link in a chain and are unlikely to accomplish anything new or experience anything new.

A generational ship is great for the first generation and the last, but for all the generations in between, it could be a bit of a dull existence.

Which could lead to someone going postal or other social issues on board.

Good post and good points.

shizz wrote: »

Yeah it does seem like a big issue. But that notion could be kept from the majority and probably would be. How would they know any different?

It's a pretty cool thought though. Somewhere there could be a generation ship just endlessly floating through the galaxy.

Endlessly floating through the galaxy sounds a bit scary to me. I would rather have a set destination in mind. But I think it may appeal to some.

shizz

Rubecula wrote: »

Endlessly floating through the galaxy sounds a bit scary to me. I would rather have a set destination in mind. But I think it may appeal to some.

Well endless to most.

Capt'n Midnight

Rubecula wrote: »

The first generation may have chosen to go into Space, but their offspring won't have been given the choice.

As long as you get the parents to sign the waivers

If it is ever found to be possible my first choice would be some form of FTL.

My second choice would be suspended animation.

FLT would be nice, if you aren't worried about tearing the universe a new arse.

Suspended animation is going to be very difficult.
vertebrates don't survive freezing, yes some can withstand ice crystals in their cells, but brains and stuff use anti freeze , so cellular mechanisms will still happen , although more slowly, diffusion would handle oxygen requirements. every 10 degree drop halves reaction rates, so presumably would double life expectancy. 0 degrees would mean 2^4 so age 1/16th as fast during the time you sleep, to get vastly longer times you would have to stop metabolism and hopefully the levels of neurotransmatters wouldn't change.

Pity we are mammals, otherwise seed ships would be so much easier.

As for probes. I think they are all very well and good, but I think it is more in human nature to want to go out there in person.

Probes first, it's just insurance. Since the probes don't necessiarilay have to slow down they can travel much faster and so they won't delay things too much.