ai for heifer

ronman

Hi, i have a suckler herd of 13 inc cows and heifers running with a 18 mth old angus bull since june, got them scanned last week and all calving within 3 wks of each other, however have one smashing lim heifer that is not in calf, i observe her coming in heat like clockwork every 17-18 days and bull is at her all day but she wont stand for him, she is 2yo heifer. i saw her in heat again last nite and this morn and same story. was thinkin of trying ai on her today as i think there is nothin wrong with her fertility just wont stand for bull. any openions.
the strange thing is when other cattle other than bull rise on her she stands fine. i no the obvious thing is to get rid but i think if i can get her in calf she mite calm next yr and have no more trouble, also the bull wil be bigger and stronger then, main prob is she would be calvin(hopefully) 2 mths after the rest. also how much is an ai straw and wat easy calvin breed is best for late calvin heifer. is 30euro correct, think it worth a gamble at that price.

whelan1

no harm to ai her and ask ai man how does she handle, is she dirty? did scanning man make any comment on her

flatout11

with the trade on stock at the moment cash her... by next year she will have nearly slipped into a autumn system
but in relation to the problem, she may well be standing (just not when your watching) the duration of 'standing heat' varies between animals, it is possible she is not holding (thats another reason to sell her) as a small porportion of reproductively normal heifers will never manage to concieve,
the price you get for her will go well on to a springer next spring

pakalasa

One thing I noticed also is, if they have poor back feet, they wont stand to be mounted. But you said she stands for others to mount, so that rules that out.

ronman

whelan1 wrote: »

no harm to ai her and ask ai man how does she handle, is she dirty? did scanning man make any comment on her

he thought it mite be worth a go thought she was a fine heifer. she was the first one we scanned with new bull so was ****tin a brick but thankfully all the rest of them were in calf. as i said if she comes in heat again after this il be geittin rid, im prepared to gamble on the 30 euro.
the ai man is coming at 9 tonight, i first spotted her in heat lastnite but could have been since earlier in day, wil she stil be safe to ai tonite or is it bit late. he figured she would hold until then anyway. any ideas on which straw to use, i was thinkin of easy calvin lim due to such late calvin.

whelan1

did you buy her in or is she your own? is there any chance she is a twin to a bull, if there is blood on her tail its too late to serve her

ronman

flatout11 wrote: »

with the trade on stock at the moment cash her... by next year she will have nearly slipped into a autumn system
but in relation to the problem, she may well be standing (just not when your watching) the duration of 'standing heat' varies between animals, it is possible she is not holding (thats another reason to sell her) as a small porportion of reproductively normal heifers will never manage to concieve,
the price you get for her will go well on to a springer next spring

all good points, its just i like to hold onto my own stock as much as possible rather than buyin in. her mother was a great cow who had 12 calves without ever a bother. and if can get her rite i think she wil be the same. if this dont work wil stil get rid and only down 30 euro for the ai straw.

ronman

whelan1 wrote: »

did you buy her in or is she your own? is there any chance she is a twin to a bull, if there is blood on her tail its too late to serve her

no she one of our own 09 calves

limo_100

there is notting wrong with the heifer because the man that scanned her would have spotted if there is anyting wrong with here like no eggs.
did ya bull her wat did you put on her if you dont mind me asking???

ronman

limo_100 wrote: »

there is notting wrong with the heifer because the man that scanned her would have spotted if there is anyting wrong with here like no eggs.
did ya bull her wat did you put on her if you dont mind me asking???

ya he came at 10 o clock last nite, put pelletstown pompernal limousin in her he said its easy calvin lim which is important cos first calf and so late, he said she was fine anyway was still bullin away, he came across a few of them this year that wont stand for bull. hopefully she will settle next yr for our own bull.

pakalasa

ronman wrote: »

...put pelletstown pompernal limousin in her he said its easy calvin lim which is important cos first calf and so late.....

Jazus, Pelletstown Pompernal isn't easy calving. Are you sure it was him he gave her. He's hard calving. In the bottom 2% of the breed.


http://www.icbf.ie/taurus/bull_search/index.php?search_type=num&search=pop

limo_100

pakalasa wrote: »

Jazus, Pelletstown Pompernal isn't easy calving. Are you sure it was him he gave her. He's hard calving. In the bottom 2% of the breed.

dont worry bout it your ai knows what hes doing because hes bulling heifers like her every day of the week and that bull is old now so he knows him better than you think. i never use the easy calving section dont think its important for example we used cottage deven on heifers last year and they calved no bother super calves. we have alot of heifers calving to adx in the spring aswell as long as your there, there'l b no proplem

flatout11

limo_100 wrote: »

dont worry bout it your ai knows what hes doing because hes bulling heifers like her every day of the week and that bull is old now so he knows him better than you think. i never use the easy calving section dont think its important for example we used cottage deven on heifers last year and they calved no bother super calves. we have alot of heifers calving to adx in the spring aswell as long as your there, there'l b no proplem

adx grand but cottage devon...... i wouldnt bother with him on cows!!! what kind of heifers were they???

limo_100

flatout11 wrote: »

adx grand but cottage devon...... i wouldnt bother with him on cows!!! what kind of heifers were they???

why not?? we think hes a top bull serious calves there long thick and very deep so they were build to carry weight. Have you any adx calves on the ground he looks the part and his figures are very good. heifers god a bit of every thing limos, charolais, blues, shorthorn, sim , red agnus so its a real mix and match were trying to get alot of cows replaced in the next 2years.

ronman

limo_100 wrote: »

dont worry bout it your ai knows what hes doing because hes bulling heifers like her every day of the week and that bull is old now so he knows him better than you think. i never use the easy calving section dont think its important for example we used cottage deven on heifers last year and they calved no bother super calves. we have alot of heifers calving to adx in the spring aswell as long as your there, there'l b no proplem

ya saw that in book but i would go with the experience of the ai man rather than stars in a booklet, im not going to question him he ais thousands of cows a year and ive never got ai done before. im sure he would not give a difficult calver after the only thing i asked for was easy calvin limo. wel see next yr and anyway she is a huge heifer should be able to handle a decent size calf.

pakalasa

ronman wrote: »

ya saw that in book but i would go with the experience of the ai man rather than stars in a booklet, im not going to question him he ais thousands of cows a year and ive never got ai done before. im sure he would not give a difficult calver after the only thing i asked for was easy calvin limo. wel see next yr and anyway she is a huge heifer should be able to handle a decent size calf.

He may AI thousands of cows, but he's not around to see them calving.
As for the stars in a catalogue, well they're derived from the feedback from farmers filling in the calving surveys.

ronman

pakalasa wrote: »

He may AI thousands of cows, but he's not around to see them calving.
As for the stars in a catalogue, well they're derived from the feedback from farmers filling in the calving surveys.

fair enough, wel heres hopin she is will calf down ok, i would think that the ai man would have a good openion on all the bulls he uses from dealing with farmers on a daily basis and returning to the same farmers year on year getting feedback. i dont think he would just pick me a hard calver for the sake of it.

flatout11

limo_100 wrote: »

why not?? we think hes a top bull serious calves there long thick and very deep so they were build to carry weight. Have you any adx calves on the ground he looks the part and his figures are very good. heifers god a bit of every thing limos, charolais, blues, shorthorn, sim , red agnus so its a real mix and match were trying to get alot of cows replaced in the next 2years.

seen a few brutes of him in spring mostly c-sections from cows, i think the bull himself is a bit overated as is his sire texan time will tell i guess, dey seem to have stopped pshing him usually a sign of something
is it all progressive you use or a mixture???

limo_100

flatout11 wrote: »

seen a few brutes of him in spring mostly c-sections from cows, i think the bull himself is a bit overated as is his sire texan time will tell i guess, dey seem to have stopped pshing him usually a sign of something
is it all progressive you use or a mixture???

god we were lucky cous we calved a sim heifer down to him unassisted but we were with her. I intend on using alot of tim again before xmas dats the plan anyway. there not pushing him cause hes gone down in that ibr thing. yeah its all progressive we use suspose we should broaden our horizon but we wont. can u recommend any good bulls from them from your own experience???? have you any adx or nhl calves on the ground or have you seen any???

limo_100

ronman wrote: »

fair enough, wel heres hopin she is will calf down ok, i would think that the ai man would have a good openion on all the bulls he uses from dealing with farmers on a daily basis and returning to the same farmers year on year getting feedback. i dont think he would just pick me a hard calver for the sake of it.

don't be worrying about it he knows best cause if things go round for the farmer he'll hear about it the next time he visits the yard. anyway who fills out them things correctly we just thick 1the whole way down the list and i no were not the only ones doing that. on the plus side if she holds and you get a heifer calf you should have the making of another quality cow.

pakalasa

limo_100 wrote: »

....anyway who fills out them things correctly we just thick 1the whole way down the list and i no were not the only ones doing that..

I'm sure ICBF will love to hear that. :mad: Over 2 million euro of taxpayers money going to support them and you couldn't bother yer arse filling in the form.

limo_100

pakalasa wrote: »

I'm sure ICBF will love to hear that. :mad: Over 2 million euro of taxpayers money going to support them and you couldn't bother yer arse filling in the form.

sure we wouldn't have the time to go around ticking a little book everytime something happens. If the farmer is good enough feeding there cows properly before calving and he keeps a close eye all the time then he'll get any calf out of any cow. cause we were at a farm walk for reps and they were saying the proper diet for the cows is far more important than the star ratings

whelan1

limo_100 wrote: »

sure we wouldn't have the time to go around ticking a little book everytime something happens. If the farmer is good enough feeding there cows properly before calving and he keeps a close eye all the time then he'll get any calf out of any cow. cause we were at a farm walk for reps and they were saying the proper diet for the cows is far more important than the star ratings

was this a teagasc walk? so we are all fools for believing the star ratings

flatout11

ah teagasc advice ........ what way is the wind blowing today

limo_100

no it was just a reps walk, for reps 4 dont even no how it came as its a bit of subject. no they should be used as a guide is all.

Bodacious

flatout11 wrote: »

limo_100 wrote: »

why not?? we think hes a top bull serious calves there long thick and very deep so they were build to carry weight. Have you any adx calves on the ground he looks the part and his figures are very good. heifers god a bit of every thing limos, charolais, blues, shorthorn, sim , red agnus so its a real mix and match were trying to get alot of cows replaced in the next 2years.

seen a few brutes of him in spring mostly c-sections from cows, i think the bull himself is a bit overated as is his sire texan time will tell i guess, dey seem to have stopped pshing him usually a sign of something
is it all progressive you use or a mixture???

cottage Devon...He is very hard calving ... End of story.

Very close to here he has been used on ped char mature cows and cow opened out double the size of a nornal c section and they got him out but dead as a do do.. Very experienced vet said biggest that he has ever had to contend with.

I won't be using him anyway his calving figures gone from 9 to 21.4% for a valid reason

whelan1

op after reading this i would be hoping the heifer repeats:)

flatout11

re nutrition vs calving ease
there was a scottish study done a few years back comparing easy vs hard calving charos (based on their EBVs) on i think 2 diffedrent diets,
essientially (and my memory is slightly hazy) the expected differance all but dissappeared on the restricted cows
now that said you wont shrink bone !!!! but barring a few outlyers (devon would spring to mind) in the calving ease ratings management will relive some of the problems incurred

pakalasa

The feeding of the cow in the last 6 weeks has a huge bearing. I think everbody would agree with that. But it's 6 weeks feeding, compared to the few mins it takes to decide which AI straw to use. When it comes to first calvers, always better to go with the well proven easy calver.

blue5000

ronman wrote: »

ya he came at 10 o clock last nite, put pelletstown pompernal limousin in her he said its easy calvin lim which is important cos first calf and so late, he said she was fine anyway was still bullin away, he came across a few of them this year that wont stand for bull. hopefully she will settle next yr for our own bull.

Ronman what colour is the heifer?

Watch out for a blood discharge over the next week. If it's there she ain't incalf. If its a black heifer its harder to see this.

ronman

blue5000 wrote: »

Ronman what colour is the heifer?

Watch out for a blood discharge over the next week. If it's there she ain't incalf. If its a black heifer its harder to see this.

she is black havnt spotted anything yet anyway.

Bizzum

Ronman, keep a close eye on her a few day coming up to the 3 weeks.
Time will tell if she's in calf then.
We use Eurogene now, although I buy straws wherever suits us. Our AI man is the best in the world, but if left to his own devices can put on some odd selections, EG. Last year I bought 10 straws of FL22 for a few heifers, on a couple of ocassions he would "forget" the flask with private straws and because of this we have several heifers calved or carrying to Brigadeer and Jaguar.
Having read the discussion earlier in this thread on calving ease, I'm in strong agreement with Pakalasa.
The Eurostars are by no means gospel, they are however an indicator of a trait and I for one are happy to use them as such. With this in mind I tick the boxes as accurately as I can. It's as easy to do it right as wrong!

As regards POP. We have used him over the years, his calving is typical enough of a lot of the Lims, I never had him on a heifer though. I found his progeny a little wild too, for what it's worth!

ronman

Bizzum wrote: »

Ronman, keep a close eye on her a few day coming up to the 3 weeks.
Time will tell if she's in calf then.
We use Eurogene now, although I buy straws wherever suits us. Our AI man is the best in the world, but if left to his own devices can put on some odd selections, EG. Last year I bought 10 straws of FL22 for a few heifers, on a couple of ocassions he would "forget" the flask with private straws and because of this we have several heifers calved or carrying to Brigadeer and Jaguar.
Having read the discussion earlier in this thread on calving ease, I'm in strong agreement with Pakalasa.
The Eurostars are by no means gospel, they are however an indicator of a trait and I for one are happy to use them as such. With this in mind I tick the boxes as accurately as I can. It's as easy to do it right as wrong!

As regards POP. We have used him over the years, his calving is typical enough of a lot of the Lims, I never had him on a heifer though. I found his progeny a little wild too, for what it's worth!

ya will be easy to spot if shes in heat again as there stil with the bull and she comes in heat very strong every time, if she doesnt hold i gettin rid cos shes obv infertile but i am very hopeful shes in calf now. one of our older cows injured her ankle mounting her a few weeks ago so not puttin up with any more **** but thankfully she recoverd ok. have 7 heifers calvin next yr and the rest of them in calf to our own angus so if we have one with a bit of difficulty wil be able to handle it, shes very large frame for a heifer so not worried about her having a lim calf the only thing that worries me is that shes calving so late. either way i wil worry about it next june if shes in calf and wil be happy for now she is in calf.
tbh i would have chosen the easiest calver on the heifer but trusted the ai man, wil be wise for again and have the book well studied and choose my own bull.

johnpawl

ronman wrote: »

ya will be easy to spot if shes in heat again as there stil with the bull and she comes in heat very strong every time, if she doesnt hold i gettin rid cos shes obv infertile but i am very hopeful shes in calf now. one of our older cows injured her ankle mounting her a few weeks ago so not puttin up with any more **** but thankfully she recoverd ok. have 7 heifers calvin next yr and the rest of them in calf to our own angus so if we have one with a bit of difficulty wil be able to handle it, shes very large frame for a heifer so not worried about her having a lim calf the only thing that worries me is that shes calving so late. either way i wil worry about it next june if shes in calf and wil be happy for now she is in calf.
tbh i would have chosen the easiest calver on the heifer but trusted the ai man, wil be wise for again and have the book well studied and choose my own bull.

Fek it, it'll be grand no point stressing 'bout it now prob be fine out in the end

ronman

sorry to say that my heifer came in heat again last night so ai didnt work, fair depressed she is obviously infertile will have to get rid now id say, no point tryin again. i wonder is mart or factory best for a single heifer like that, 28 months old large heifer mite try her in mart.

limo_100

ronman wrote: »

sorry to say that my heifer came in heat again last night so ai didnt work, fair depressed she is obviously infertile will have to get rid now id say, no point tryin again. i wonder is mart or factory best for a single heifer like that, 28 months old large heifer mite try her in mart.

why dont you get her scanned and find out if she is infertile.