Rothar charging a crazy price for second hand bicycles.

Crow92

I was in with rothar about a week ago, I am sourcing second hand bicycles for a couple of college friends who just want something to knock about college. I was talking to a guy there and he quoted me 130 euro for a second hand mountain...whilst also telling me they never really sell them because noone wants them. town bikes started at about 160.

I know it costs a bit of money to get the bikes up and running from when they come into the shop (free from donations) but I found that a ridiculous price for a 2 bit bicycle. Found a small second hand shop, the owner was very nice and said he does them for 70-90 euro.

Obviously these are a pittance in bicycle terms but Rothar recieve donations and sell them for a higher rater and this guy buys them and sells them at a lower rate.

It got me to question the front of rothar, they must make a bit of money, only have 2 paid staff, get most their stuff for free....opening a new shop on fade street. I know they give new life to old bikes and are handy for odd bits but I just find the pricing they sell them on for to be shocking.

Joey The Gowl

They provide a great service to the community through classes etc.. I'm sure if they were only concerned with selling bikes you could have picked one up a bit cheaper.

Peetrik

One of the best things about Rothar is that they encourage people to learn to recycle/repair bikes themselves.

They let you use their tools and workspace for €5 an hour and sell second hand and cheap components so that its MUCH cheaper to source your own beater and get it back on the road.

If you expect them to put in a few hours and do all the work for you then you have to pay them for a couple of hours work. A mechanic or plumber would charge you roughly the same for their time.

Just my 2c

Crow92

Joey The Gowl wrote: »

They provide a great service to the community through classes etc.. I'm sure if they were only concerned with selling bikes you could have picked one up a bit cheaper.

I do agree with the classes being very good from what I've heard it was just purely on the bike selling basis, btw I didn't purchase a bike.

@peetrik, it shouldn't take more than an hour to get a bike back and ready for the road really....unless something drastic has to be fixed. I had a great opinion on rothar from a second hand parts basis and am not bashing the guys, they are really nice, purely just a bit puzzled on the price difference.

monument

It's a bit hard to make a judgement on something like this unless you have all the details...

Is the unnamed place just buying and selling bikes without doing much work to them?

Is Rothar doing much work to the bikes? You say it can't take more than a half hour -- how do we know this is true?

Where are both places sourcing their bikes and parts from? How much is this costing them?

Does one shop have larger overheads (rents, staff etc) than the other?

Is the standard of the bikes at €130/€160+ better than the ones at €70/€90?

Crow92

Is the unnamed place just buying and selling bikes without doing much work to them?

The other bike shop told me he services all bikes before he sells. Though I'd assume he wouldn't take in bikes in bad dis-repair whilst rothar will take in anything

Is Rothar doing much work to the bikes? You say it can't take more than a half hour -- how do we know this is true?

This I can't really know, But on average I couldn't see it taking more than an hour to fix most bikes. Obviously any number of things could be wrong with a bike so I could be wrong with the hour remark

Where are both places sourcing their bikes and parts from? How much is this costing them?

The unnamed shop, I don't know where he's source he bikes from, Rothar only accept donated bikes and don't buy them.

I don't know about parts for either, But I'd assume the unnamed buys most his parts. Rothar would take parts of most bikes, I guess they'd buy some parts they'd need too.

Does one shop have larger overheads (rents, staff etc) than the other?
The unamed shop had 2 employee's (including owner, unsure if he hires anyone else), rothar have 14 volunteers and 2 paid staff. The unamed shop has is smaller but they are equally small.

Is the standard of the bikes at €130/€160+ better than the ones at €70/€90?

This is one I couldn't answer, I hadn't seen any of rothars finished bikes. A friend had bought a town bike from the unnamed shop a year or so ago and it's still going strong. They are what they are, 2 bit bicycle's for people who want something cheap to knock about in. The quality of bikes are dependant on their manufacture, not so much on the shop as each should be have a similiar standard of repair if sold.

monument

Crow92 wrote: »

The other bike shop told me he services all bikes before he sells. Though I'd assume he wouldn't take in bikes in bad dis-repair whilst rothar will take in anything

Quite a bit difference between service and what sounds like rebuilds or partial rebuilds.

Crow92 wrote: »

This I can't really know, But on average I couldn't see it taking more than an hour to fix most bikes. Obviously any number of things could be wrong with a bike so I could be wrong with the hour remark

From a half hour to maybe an hour or more... it can all amount to a big differences in the cost of fixing the bikes

Crow92 wrote: »

This is one I couldn't answer, I hadn't seen any of rothars finished bikes. A friend had bought a town bike from the unnamed shop a year or so ago and it's still going strong. They are what they are, 2 bit bicycle's for people who want something cheap to knock about in. The quality of bikes are dependant on their manufacture, not so much on the shop as each should be have a similiar standard of repair if sold.

This is key.

The quality of a second hand bike is not just dependant on the manufacture, but it's also largely dependant on how it has been repaired by the seller.

I don't think you're in a position to comment much when you were not able to compare what both shops were selling.

Crow92

Fair enough I don't know how the average bicycle comes into rothar, I'd assume they do get a lot they put to scrap and salvage all the parts they can. The must be a limit of dis-repair they won't go past as it wouldn't be worth the effort.

You skipped the point of the overheads which was my main point of the thread, if it's mostly volunteers who are fixing donated bicycles using donated parts to fix them why is the pricing so high.

It just leads me to believe that someone must be making a tidy amount from the operation, obviously someone has to make a living I just don't agree with that pricing for the reasons above, donated stuff done by volunteers.

abcdggs

monument wrote: »

I don't think you're in a position to comment much when you were not able to compare what both shops were selling.

+1 in this point

Also many of the bikes that are restored by rothar take a lot longer than an hour to repair

monument

Crow92 -- I really don't think you have enough information to back up the claims you are making.

happytramp

monument wrote: »

Crow92 -- I really don't think you have enough information to back up the claims you are making.

If his claim is that €130 is too much for a bog standard 90's mountain bike i'd say he's right on the money.

monument

happytramp wrote: »

If his claim is that €130 is too much for a bog standard 90's mountain bike i'd say he's right on the money.

His claim is "someone must be making a tidy amount from the operation." Even if the bikes are overpriced for what they are that does not mean there's somebody making large profits -- and we still don't know what kind of standard the bikes are.

Bambaata

Crow92 wrote: »

Is the standard of the bikes at €130/€160+ better than the ones at €70/€90?

This is one I couldn't answer, I hadn't seen any of rothars finished bikes. A friend had bought a town bike from the unnamed shop a year or so ago and it's still going strong. They are what they are, 2 bit bicycle's for people who want something cheap to knock about in. The quality of bikes are dependant on their manufacture, not so much on the shop as each should be have a similiar standard of repair if sold.

I think this is the end of your argument. How can you compare prices when you don't know what it is you are comparing?

LCRC_BAX

@Bambatta, you should have read Crow's first post, he is trying to compare like for like and is questioning why there is such a price difference between Rothar and the bike shop he found the bike in, which was a good bit cheaper, for a similar bike. Lets be sensible, a serviced, well used cheap bike should be just that, especially when the shop selling it is a registered charity and not for profit organisation, lets drop the crap about not knowing each bike's individual merits, these bikes are purely functional, if someone wants their dream bike they can start saving.

C3PO

This is a ridiculous thread IMHO! The OP is making a price comparison between 2 bikes and, by his own admission, he has no idea whether they are similar in terms of specification or condition! €40 or €50 (the price difference) doesn't buy much in terms of parts or labour!

smacl

Crow92 wrote: »

It got me to question the front of rothar, they must make a bit of money, only have 2 paid staff, get most their stuff for free....opening a new shop on fade street. I know they give new life to old bikes and are handy for odd bits but I just find the pricing they sell them on for to be shocking.

Having run my own small business for the last 25 years, I can attest to the fact that it is brutally hard work to keep anyone employed in the current environment and would never begrudge anyone make a decent living or, god forbid, a modest profit. If you think they're making an easy buck, try setting up for yourself. Often very rewarding, but seldom in the financial sense. Same holds equally true for Rothar and the other shop of course, more power to their collective elbows keeping afloat and providing affordable bikes.

seamus

Even if a shop is getting their second-hand material for free, there are consumable costs - oil, grease, tyres, brake pads, chains, cassettes, etc etc. Some parts you can't just spit-shine and fit to a bike, they have to be replaced with something new.

For all we know, that extra €30 or €40 charged represents new parts fitted to ensure that the new owner gets a decent running life out of the bike.

manwithaplan

I am not entirely acquainted with the rothar manifesto but if it has an element of "no bike gets left behind" I can see how it could result in some bikes seeming overpriced. If I leave in my battered and unloved 90's MTB and someone lovingly restores it, they are probably not making much at €120 or €130. But maybe that bike should have been written off in the first place.

HivemindXX

If Rothar is a registered charity (which I wasn't aware of) then surely the revenue commissioners reviews their accounts to verify they don't actually make a profit.

If the suggestion is that you can get a better deal somewhere else then maybe that is true. However I wouldn't be too surprised to find that the €90 bike from un-named second hand shop is either lower quality, not properly serviced, comes with no after sales warranty (I don't know if you get this with Rothar either) or was originally stolen. There's a big difference in quality between the bikes someone will give you for free and the bikes you can buy off some scummer for €40 because they stole them.

There seems to be an undertone that Rothar is making big money ripping people off by charging them €160 for a bike and I don't see ANY evidence of that.

Joeyde

Just going back to the OP and without arguing the quality of bike and all the good work that they do.

I'm not sure crow knew what was going to ensue here after his post but as a student myself who was just looking for a set of wheels to do a 10min commute I dropped into rothar to get a fixed up a bucket and was a little surprised at the prices as well. I didnt buy anything and picked up a second hand bike that needed a little work but nothing major. I was given prices on frames that would be completed by the way, not the finished bike.

Perhaps we were just expecting something different. I have no doubt the bikes they sell are of a good standard and are priced accordingly.

pastorbarrett

On paper, Rothar sounds great-a valuable community resource/ service, a business model differing from the norm... from my own experience, the reality isn't as peachy as the website spiel may lead you to believe. I too found the bikes overpriced and the customer service disinterested at best. Perhaps other folks have fared better. I won't be heading back.

monument

'Overpriced' is very subjective.

Saying anything more without have the details already asked from the original thread opening poster would be repeating what has already been posted.

reallyunique

Neither bike is overpriced or underpriced, they're just priced!

Both of these shops are selling their product (AFAIK) in an open and fair way, the prices seem clear enough and you can see what you're buying. If you think one price is too high then go somewhere else. If the prices from one shop are too high it'll go out of business, if they make a profit (or an excess of income over expenditure) then good on them.
It would surely be more of a cause for concern if all bike shop prices were conveniently similar, that would definitely help the shops but not the customers.

Doctor Bob

monument wrote: »

'Overpriced' is very subjective.

Saying anything more without have the details already asked from the original thread opening poster would be repeating what has already been posted.

Danger is subjective. Beauty is subjective. But both are discussed here regularly without anyone dismissing the opinion of a poster because of that subjectivity. If anything, subjectivity renders all opinions valid, not invalid. (Such is the condition of the modern world. *sigh*)

You may have missed the previous thread wherein the price and quality of Rothar bikes were discussed. Perhaps that will provide you with the stories you consider are lacking from this thread.

I'm as uncomfortable now as I was in that thread criticising a social endeavour with much to admire, but I don't believe such initiatives, however worthwhile, should be immune from criticism. From your posts here, I infer that you think different standards should apply. Or am I reading you wrong?

Look at it this way- A student moves to Dublin to start college and decides to start cycling. Which of these non-theoretical options is the better one: A second hand bike of unknown provenance and age, repaired by a volunteer to a basic standard of roadworthiness but with residual running problems, and costing €180 (including extra parts required post-purchase); or a 6-month old ex-rental bike refurbished by a shop mechanic and costing €125?

HivemindXX

Doctor Bob wrote: »

...a 6-month old ex-rental bike refurbished by a shop mechanic and costing €125?

Where can you buy this? I'm genuinely interested since often enough people ask me about starting to cycle to work but are then shocked that they might have to pay more for a bike than they pay to have their car cleaned.

In addition though I think your comparison is bogus. Bike A is is "repaired to a basic standard" but Bike B is "refurbished". What does this mean? Bike A has residual running problems (for some reason) but Bike B does not. Why is this?

I also think on another board somewhere someone is complaining about the shop Bike B was bought from being a rip off and claiming they can get a "like new" bike in the local market for €50.

Tayto2000

€50? Where is this 'local market'?

Air_Bass

My next door neighbour bought a tourer style bike in Rothar for €90 a few months ago and it was in near-mint condition so all I can think is that they've either had to increase prices recently to cover costs, or else the bike that the OP was viewing had more than a few quality components fitted. From what I've heard Rothar rebuild everything they get in and fit new components such as brakes and tyres and obviously this is one cost they have to cover.

Doctor Bob

HivemindXX wrote: »

Where can you buy this? I'm genuinely interested since often enough people ask me about starting to cycle to work but are then shocked that they might have to pay more for a bike than they pay to have their car cleaned.

In addition though I think your comparison is bogus. Bike A is is "repaired to a basic standard" but Bike B is "refurbished". What does this mean? Bike A has residual running problems (for some reason) but Bike B does not. Why is this?

As mentioned, both options are 'non-theoretical'.

Bike A was bought by my housemate in March 2011; 'repaired... to a basic standard... but with residual running problems' is my own assessment of it, based on direct, first-hand experience, i.e. it has fallen to me to undertake the maintenance (on-going).

Bike B was for sale at McDonald's Cycles on Wexford Street at the end of August this year; 'refurbished' was the shop's description- I have no direct experience of it.

I'm not sure I see how this is a 'bogus' comparison.

seamus

Doctor Bob, I think it's a bit unfair to note that Rothar's stuff is worked on by volunteers, as if this is a reason to doubt the quality of the work.

They don't just bring anyone into the shop and let them work on stuff for sale, it's a specific group of volunteers that work on the stuff that Rothar sells, who presumably have been selected because they're more than capable of carrying out professional-standard work and not because they happened to be hanging around outside the shop.
Of course I could be wrong.

One could argue that work done by a volunteer in this fashion is to a higher standard - if a volunteer feels like they just couldn't be bothered doing it, they can leave. Someone being paid though, in the same mood still has to work, so might do a half-assed job.

Doctor Bob

seamus wrote: »

Doctor Bob, I think it's a bit unfair to note that Rothar's stuff is worked on by volunteers, as if this is a reason to doubt the quality of the work.

Fair point. I didn't intend it as a comment on the quality of the work, but rather as a potential factor in the cost. I imagine that my hypothetical student customer wouldn't be interested in who repaired the bike, just the final cost and whether the bike is roadworthy.

monument

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Danger is subjective. Beauty is subjective. But both are discussed here regularly without anyone dismissing the opinion of a poster because of that subjectivity. If anything, subjectivity renders all opinions valid, not invalid. (Such is the condition of the modern world. *sigh*)

You may have missed the previous thread wherein the price and quality of Rothar bikes were discussed. Perhaps that will provide you with the stories you consider are lacking from this thread.

I'm as uncomfortable now as I was in that thread criticising a social endeavour with much to admire, but I don't believe such initiatives, however worthwhile, should be immune from criticism. From your posts here, I infer that you think different standards should apply. Or am I reading you wrong?

Look at it this way- A student moves to Dublin to start college and decides to start cycling. Which of these non-theoretical options is the better one: A second hand bike of unknown provenance and age, repaired by a volunteer to a basic standard of roadworthiness but with residual running problems, and costing €180 (including extra parts required post-purchase); or a 6-month old ex-rental bike refurbished by a shop mechanic and costing €125?

Yes, you're reading it wrong. I mean the word 'overpriced' is subjective, that is to say it is so without any context. The OP wasn't giving us much to go on and the same goes for the recent post I replied to.

flickerx

Crow92 wrote: »

Found a small second hand shop, the owner was very nice and said he does them for 70-90 euro.

So what shop is this? No need to keep it anonymous. Its a shop.

flickerx

Also, having volunteered in Rothar in the past, it does not take an hour's work to bring the stuff back up to roadworthiness. The state of some of the bikes that got brought in there, complete wrecks. A lot of labour and new parts went into some of them.

People griping about £150 being a lot to pay for a bike drives me up the wall. You buy a decent bike, a decent lock, and you never have to pay for petrol, insurance, or transport fares again. You make your money back on any bike ridiculously quickly. £150 in the grand scheme of things is nothing. If students were getting the bus or train to college every day, it would work out way more expensive.

monument

That's a good point on comparing price to public transport, just on students:

Dublin Bus Student 30 Day Rambler €82.00
Student 30 Day Bus and Luas €88.00
Luas 3 zones 30 days €48.00
Luas all zones 30 days €62.00 / €55.50 (ticket machine/agent, ie shop)

Jedgargroover

Well as a volunteer in Rothar, I can say with certainty that it takes around half a day of intensive labour (a lot of things get siezed up) to get some clunker of a bike that's not had a service in it's entire existance (which is how most of them arrive) up and running, and working (not looking) as good as a bright shiny 'bike of your dreams', unless you're talking about cycling as a sport and then it's a whole nuther ball game.

mod voice : or maybe dont drag up 3 year old threads - locked