Declan Kidney's WC Management Thus Far (build up and currently)

TheHighRoad · 11-09-2011 8:18am #1

Let's discuss. No Reddan and Sexton together at all! Never even gave Boss a game despite him being a huge part of the Leinster HC winning team (Murray who played a few ML games gets more opportunities and was poor today), excessive game time given to TO'L, No chances for Hagan at all so essentially if one front row is injured the other will have to play the full 80mins because our sub prop could lose the game for us, the likes of Fionn Carr never even given a chance (and my god we could use his creativity and ability to make something out of nothing), Jennings not being brought up to speed (told before the warm ups he wouldnt even be travelling!) having only gotten one game and now lo and behold Wallace is injured. NEVER playing POC and Cullen together no matter how poor DOC has been... Discuss more, please....

danthefan · 11-09-2011 8:21am

Earls in the centre.

The scrum half situation has been beyond a joke, one of the worst cases of mis management you'll ever see.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 11-09-2011 8:22am

D'arcy getting gametime no matter how bad he is

astonaidan · 11-09-2011 8:22am

Do You ever not post a pro-Leinster comment, Good to see that Fionn Carr has moved over to ye that hes now good enough though

TheHighRoad · 11-09-2011 8:24am

astonaidan wrote: »

Do You ever not post a pro-Leinster comment, Good to see that Fionn Carr has moved over to ye that hes now good enough though

I actually didn't even notice that it all involved Leinster players but I can assure you it has nothing to do with that. Which of my points do you disagree with? Completely forgot, NEVER trying Bowe in the centre and given McFadden one game at centre. Add them to the list.

wixfjord · 11-09-2011 8:24am

astonaidan wrote: »

Do You ever not post a pro-Leinster comment, Good to see that Fionn Carr has moved over to ye that hes now good enough though

Cop the **** on, you're the one making it into a provincial argument.
Fact: Declan Kidney is from Munster
More importantly Fact: Declan Kidney has overseen some purely strange coaching decisions and some awful, awful performances.

Even the most blinkered fan can see that.

TheHighRoad · 11-09-2011 8:27am

Also can someone tell me the point in giving McCarthy game time? He played so much better than Ryan and yet Ryan still got picked?! I mean it was clear that Kidney had no intention of bringing McCarthy because if he did, he would have been on that plane on the basis of his performances. Add that one to the list, picking Donnacha Ryan over McCarthy

wixfjord · 11-09-2011 8:41am

Why was Ross left on today?
Why was Healy flogged in the warm ups?
Why have Ryan and Leamy on the bench?
Why bring of Jennings, who needs gametime, and put on Leamy at 7?!

Conas · 11-09-2011 8:47am

DOC poor. Always picked
D'Arcy poor. Always picked.
Heaslip poor. Always picked.

If a player has one bad game fair enough. But the above have had much more than that but are never dropped.

Why?

wixfjord · 11-09-2011 8:50am

Conas wrote: »

DOC poor. Always picked
D'Arcy poor. Always picked.
Heaslip poor. Always picked.

If a player has one bad game fair enough. But the above have had much more than that but are never dropped.

Why?

There seems to be a blindspot for these three though, which I'm guilty of too.

If it were Earls, Best, TOL, Sexton or Wallace, there'd be uproar, yet guys like this, and BOD too, get off without any criticism?!

Shelflife · 11-09-2011 8:55am

Why did he play jennings when he had told him that he wouldnt be travelling?

vinny chase · 11-09-2011 8:58am

wixfjord wrote: »

There seems to be a blindspot for these three though, which I'm guilty of too.

If it were Earls, Best, TOL, Sexton or Wallace, there'd be uproar, yet guys like this, and BOD too, get off without any criticism?!

I agree. I'm as Leinster as can be, but it still frustrates me that a fully fit d'Arcy & Heaslip will always be selected, regardless of form.

Donncha O'Callaghan rarely delivers either, and is essentially undroppable.

Kidney has no tactical or technical background in rugby worth talking about. He lives off Munster's successes, when in reality, Munster were the best team in Europe then because they had a tremendous group of players, and probably should have won more in his era. His only motivational tool seems to be backs to the wall, siege mentality, cast the team as underdogs. He did this at Munster for years, so Munster would produce these "miracle matches" on the sixth round of the pool stages, when nobody used to say that Munster should never have even been in those situations with the talent they had.

Our illustrious Grand Slam win was a farce. We literally fell over the line in practically every game. Drico's immense performances against a dreadful England side, and the fact that Gavin Henson didn't take the late kick in Cardiff won it for us.

vinny chase · 11-09-2011 9:01am

Why not give any of these guys the opportunity to see what they can do at the top level for Ireland:

Jamie Hagan
Fionn Carr
James Downey
Roger Wilson
Dan Tuohy
Nevin Spence
Darren Cave

It took injury crises to finally get Mike Ross & Sean O'Brien their opportunities.

TheHighRoad · 11-09-2011 9:02am

vinny chase wrote: »

Why not give any of these guys the opportunity to see what they can do at the top level for Ireland:

Jamie Hagan
Fionn Carr
James Downey
Roger Wilson
Dan Tuohy
Nevin Spence
Darren Cave

It took injury crises to finally get Mike Ross & Sean O'Brien their opportunities.

COMPLETELY forgot about not giving Downey any opportunity. I would have loved to have seen Downey and BOD playing together (similar to Roberts-BOD) and now that D'arcy has been so poor even more so.

Big Nelly · 11-09-2011 9:04am

vinny chase wrote: »

and the fact that Gavin Henson didn't take the late kick in Cardiff won it for us.

Henson didn't take the kick!!

vinny chase · 11-09-2011 9:07am

Big Nelly wrote: »

Henson didn't take the kick!!

Eh, yeah. Well spotted Big Nelly.

Have a read of what I said again there why don't you?

Shelflife · 11-09-2011 9:07am

Big Nelly wrote: »

Henson didn't take the kick!!

Exactly, he had the range, Jones didnt.

Reloc8 · 11-09-2011 9:11am

A Coach who persists with Paddy Wallace as an option at inside centre over the past 3 or more years in this Irish team when James Downey is and has been available is seriously to be doubted.

mrboswell · 11-09-2011 9:11am

TheHighRoad wrote: »

COMPLETELY forgot about not giving Downey any opportunity. I would have loved to have seen Downey and BOD playing together (similar to Roberts-BOD) and now that D'arcy has been so poor even more so.

Not fair to compare that really. Roberts is MILES better than Downey and BOD was in better form when he played with Roberts.

Downey has missed the boat in fairness, literally, and is too old to be getting a look in at this stage. Should give McFadden a run at 12, or at least put Wallace in to put a stop to D'Arcy's painful lack of form.

Bogsnorkler · 11-09-2011 9:14am

Not bringing Stringer, huge mistake.

Conas · 11-09-2011 9:17am

What has the Grand Slam win in 09 have anything to do with the World Cup 2011? Seriously can at least one thread stay on topic. Next people will be saying it was EOS slam...and then we go down that road again.

But one thing that has to be addressed is Kidney's loyalty to some players over others. Some get dropped with ease after one bad game where as others can be brutal and never be dropped. Players then have the mentality that they are undroppable, and don't play at 100%

This is the truth... if Brian Cody was over that Irish team some players asses would be landed on the bench long ago. DOC, D'Arcy, Heaslip. Kidney isn't ruthless enough. I thought he was a great man for getting the best out of the players? I personally think he's afraid to drop some players.

Conas · 11-09-2011 9:19am

Actually afraid OF some players makes more sense.

Bogsnorkler · 11-09-2011 9:20am

Conas wrote: »

What has the Grand Slam win in 09 have anything to do with the World Cup 2011? Seriously can at least one thread stay on topic. Next people will be saying it was EOS slam...and then we go down that road again.

But one thing that has to be addressed is Kidney's loyalty to some players over others. Some get dropped with ease after one bad game where as others can be brutal and never be dropped. Players then have the mentality that they are undroppable, and don't play at 100%

This is the truth... if Brian Cody was over that Irish team some players asses would be landed on the bench long ago. DOC, D'Arcy, Heaslip. Kidney isn't ruthless enough. I thought he was a great man for getting the best out of the players? I personally think he's afraid to drop some players.

Cody has a raft of hungry capable players to pick from if someone is under performing. The players aren't there.

vinny chase · 11-09-2011 9:20am

Conas wrote: »

What has the Grand Slam win in 09 have anything to do with the World Cup 2011? Seriously can at least one thread stay on topic. Next people will be saying it was EOS slam...and then we go down that road again.

But one thing that has to be addressed is Kidney's loyalty to some players over others. Some get dropped with ease after one bad game where as others can be brutal and never be dropped. Players then have the mentality that they are undroppable, and don't play at 100%

This is the truth... if Brian Cody was over that Irish team some players asses would be landed on the bench long ago. DOC, D'Arcy, Heaslip. Kidney isn't ruthless enough. I thought he was a great man for getting the best out of the players? I personally think he's afraid to drop some players.

Who asked you to moderate here?

The Grand Slam is absolutely relevant, because it's the reason always given for why people still think Kidney is going to pull a rabbit out of the hat. Our record since the GS has been absolutely abysmal, and it's that GS win that continues to ease the pressure on him.

I agree with your latter point, and think we've a core group of players who are going to be selected if they're fit, regardless of how they've been performing, and that cannot be healthy.

tbukela · 11-09-2011 9:21am

Reloc8 wrote: »

A Coach who persists with Paddy Wallace as an option at inside centre over the past 3 or more years in this Irish team when James Downey is and has been available is seriously to be doubted.

Spot on, Paddy Wallace doesn't cut it as an international centre or option on bench as utility back. More game time should have been given to McFadden.
The fact that DOC and D'arcy are still first choice is mind boggling, more so D'Arcy then DOC as I personally don't think that there are much options in the second row.
Centre however you have McFadden, Trimble, Bowe, Earls and then the likes of Downey etc. Poor management from Kidney.

vinny chase · 11-09-2011 9:23am

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

Cody has a raft of hungry capable players to pick from if someone is under performing. The players aren't there.

It's a vicious circle though, the players are hungry and will kill themselves in those January & February sessions for Cody because they know if they perform he'll select them.

What incentive do guys like Jamie Hagan, James Downey & Fionn Carr have? They've been beating on the door for ages now, and can't even get a chance.

ironingbored · 11-09-2011 9:23am

wixfjord wrote: »

Why was Ross left on today?
Because we're short of props due to chronic lack of foresight by management.

Why was Healy flogged in the warm ups?
Because Kidney has no blooded new props (Hagan, etc) and realised (2 years after the rest of us) that Hayes at 38 is not WC material now.

Why have Ryan and Leamy on the bench?
Because instead of blooding the likes of Ruddock, Dom Ryan, Muldoon, McCarthy when he had the chance, he reverts to players he's familiar with.

Why bring of Jennings, who needs gametime, and put on Leamy at 7?!
Because actually having decent back row cover would be good management.

.

Conas · 11-09-2011 9:32am

We can all beat around the bush, but next week no chances will be taken.

If I was manager I'd be taking a few chances, and would pick a totally different team. The mistake that was made in 07 was the same team was always picked. I know it's Australia, but this team needs an operation transformation.

Reloc8 · 11-09-2011 9:40am

Also the fact that Ferris has never been tried as a 4 is hard to believe - although his injury interruptions explain this somewhat - that said even if he had not been injured the likelihood of this experiment being tried seems low with the current coaching set up.

Think Brad Thorne but bigger. Imagine having that scrummaging behind you.

astonaidan · 11-09-2011 10:04am

wixfjord wrote: »

Cop the **** on, you're the one making it into a provincial argument.
Fact: Declan Kidney is from Munster
More importantly Fact: Declan Kidney has overseen some purely strange coaching decisions and some awful, awful performances.

Even the most blinkered fan can see that.

Im not making it a provincial argument, Im just saying i find it strange that hes never had a anything but pro leinster comment, Couldnt care less where Kidney is from him being from munster hasnt helped Connaught players get into the team has it

fryup · 11-09-2011 10:06am

leave Deccie alone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNzpBJzCOGI

Big Nelly · 11-09-2011 10:11am

Who would replace him? Conor O'Shea is doing well at Quins.

tolosenc · 11-09-2011 10:21am

Mallett. The IRFU should already have made contact.

SkySter · 11-09-2011 10:27am

Big Nelly wrote: »

Who would replace him? Conor O'Shea is doing well at Quins.

A southern hemisphere coach with no historical baggage or loyalties who can shake things up. Time for radical changes. Maybe Josef Schmidt? And before anyone asks I'm a Munster supporter.

Salty Dog Shrimp · 11-09-2011 11:54am

tolosenc wrote: »

Mallett. The IRFU should already have made contact.

+1

phily2002 · 11-09-2011 11:55am

SkySter wrote: »

A southern hemisphere coach with no historical baggage or loyalties who can shake things up. Time for radical changes. Maybe Josef Schmidt? And before anyone asks I'm a Munster supporter.

agree, we need someone from the southern hemisphere with no past loyalties to anyone.

thebaz · 11-09-2011 12:07pm

for me Deccies whole crediblitiy rests on the Australian game - win and all is forgiven - lose and its a disaster - simple as for me , and the golden generation he is in charge of

Conas · 11-09-2011 12:21pm

thebaz wrote: »

for me Deccies whole crediblitiy rests on the Australian game - win and all is forgiven - lose and its a disaster - simple as for me , and the golden generation he is in charge of

The question is what does he have to do to win? That's the million dollar question.

thomond2006 · 11-09-2011 12:30pm

Bring in Lievremont after the World Cup, we'll never complain about players not getting gametime!

Stev_o · 11-09-2011 12:31pm

tolosenc wrote: »

Mallett. The IRFU should already have made contact.

Poor poor choice. Kirwan should be our number 1 target before the AB's get him.

Jawgap · 11-09-2011 12:44pm

So far? Acceptable, but could do better.

As for potential replacement, if (and it's a big if) he needs replacing after the RWC why go for a southern hemisphere mercenary?

Schmidt has been outstanding at Leinster, Smal is doing a decent job with the forwards at the national level, McGahan is doing a competent job at Munster - why not look for a southern hemisphere coach (if that's the way to go) with some emotional investment in the country instead of someone looking for a decent payday and to pad their CV?

I've said this before, but if Conor O'Shea could be brought back, he should be put in as CEO of the IRFU or something comparably strategic - he'd be "wasted" as the national coach.

steve9859 · 11-09-2011 1:19pm

I am English and an England supporter, but have lived in Ireland most of my life. So follow Ireland closely, but I don'y have any affinity toward certain players and coaches. I wouldn't know enough to comment on any player options.

But what I do see from a somewhat neutral perspective is this:

In every sport, when you select a team for a game, you look at two things: Firstly what is your best team, and secondly what are the opposition weaknesses to be exploited and strengths to be defended. You then tweak your first team as appropriate

The starting point however is your best team. The focus should be on your strengths. Then certain people in that first team can be changed depending upon who you are playing. In my experience as a sports coach (not in rugby I hasten to add) the focus is 80% on your strengths, then 20% on the opposition. To do it any other way is to show no ambition and admit that you are just going to focus on stopping the other guys from playing

DK unfortunately seems to have that the other way round. Makes constant changes depending on who Ireland are playing. After all this time, DK should surely know the 1st team. In his head he should have a 15 that gets written down first when he chooses a match 15. Then changes are made from that where appropriate. But I don't think he does. After all this time he doesn't know the 1st team. He doesn't know the outhalf combination that should be the default starting one. I just don't understand how he is in that situation coming into a world cup.

The result is constant changing which undermines everyone. Puts players under needless pressure and damages confidence. IMO that is the big failing of DK as a coach

thebaz · 11-09-2011 1:23pm

Conas wrote: »

The question is what does he have to do to win? That's the million dollar question.

a POC pep talk would be a start - you would walk through walls after this infamous talk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhgt2pnSywI

handsomecake · 11-09-2011 1:29pm

vinny chase wrote: »

I agree. I'm as Leinster as can be, but it still frustrates me that a fully fit d'Arcy & Heaslip will always be selected, regardless of form.

Donncha O'Callaghan rarely delivers either, and is essentially undroppable.

Kidney has no tactical or technical background in rugby worth talking about. He lives off Munster's successes, when in reality, Munster were the best team in Europe then because they had a tremendous group of players, and probably should have won more in his era. His only motivational tool seems to be backs to the wall, siege mentality, cast the team as underdogs. He did this at Munster for years, so Munster would produce these "miracle matches" on the sixth round of the pool stages, when nobody used to say that Munster should never have even been in those situations with the talent they had.

Our illustrious Grand Slam win was a farce. We literally fell over the line in practically every game. Drico's immense performances against a dreadful England side, and the fact that Gavin Henson didn't take the late kick in Cardiff won it for us.

probably the best post ive read in the rugby forum ever.thats the elephant in the room.they were the worst grand slam winners ever,played no sort of rugby and papered over cracks whih made guys undroppable.and essentially it was won with EOS's team ala benitez winning with houlliers and getting 5 more years to churn out dross .

hook pope mcgurk et al have a lot to answer for too. bod is the worlds best centre, doc and poc are the worlds best locks. heaslip is the best 8 in the world. all of these have been said and none of them are true

Leslie91 · 11-09-2011 1:36pm

handsomecake wrote: »

probably the best post ive read in the rugby forum ever.thats the elephant in the room.they were the worst grand slam winners ever,played no sort of rugby and papered over cracks whih made guys undroppable.and essentially it was won with EOS's team ala benitez winning with houlliers and getting 5 more years to churn out dross .

hook pope mcgurk et al have a lot to answer for too. bod is the worlds best centre, doc and poc are the worlds best locks. heaslip is the best 8 in the world. all of these have been said and none of them are true

BOD was the worlds best centre. DOC last played well during the Lions tour in 2005. He needs to be dropped to send a message. The same with D'Arcy who has been awful. I can't understand what the hell has happened to Heaslip, can only imagine he started believing his hype and took the foot off the pedal/eye off the ball.

dtpc191991 · 11-09-2011 1:41pm

handsomecake wrote: »

probably the best post ive read in the rugby forum ever.thats the elephant in the room.they were the worst grand slam winners ever,played no sort of rugby and papered over cracks whih made guys undroppable.and essentially it was won with EOS's team ala benitez winning with houlliers and getting 5 more years to churn out dross .

hook pope mcgurk et al have a lot to answer for too. bod is the worlds best centre, doc and poc are the worlds best locks. heaslip is the best 8 in the world. all of these have been said and none of them are true

I agree on all of the above except for your statement about BOD. BOD was the best centre in the world for most of the last decade without question. He isn't any more only because age and injury have damaged his pace. He is still a world class player and a great leader and is more than capable of changing a game and creating and scoring tries. When Hook and McGurk called him the best centre in the world, for many years they weren't wrong.

handsomecake · 11-09-2011 1:45pm

dtpc191991 wrote: »

I agree on all of the above except for your statement about BOD. BOD was the best centre in the world for most of the last decade without question. He isn't any more only because age and injury have damaged his pace. He is still a world class player and a great leader and is more than capable of changing a game and creating and scoring tries. When Hook and McGurk called him the best centre in the world, for many years they weren't wrong.

circa lions tour in oz he was unplayable. he has never ever got the better of conrad smith ,or tana umaga. and jack fourie had his number on the last lions tour

thomond2006 · 11-09-2011 1:46pm

Re the management, all previous loyalties should be thrown out the window. This is the World Cup, the pinnacle of international rugby. The priority is getting as far as we can, picking the best team possible.

Kidney may argue that changes are "reactionary" but this XV (more or less the same players) have been struggling to perform for 2 years.

Leslie91 · 11-09-2011 1:50pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Re the management, all previous loyalties should be thrown out the window. This is the World Cup, the pinnacle of international rugby. The priority is getting as far as we can, picking the best team possible.

Kidney may argue that changes are "reactionary" but this XV (more or less the same players) have been struggling to perform for 2 years.

Problem is that is DC's problem. Witness DOC and Earls. Not that I think Earls can't be a player, I reckon he might be the best full back we have right now!. But DOC for me is 6 years away from when he was a player.

Drop DOC, D'Arcy, Jennings.

thomond2006 · 11-09-2011 1:50pm

handsomecake wrote: »

circa lions tour in oz he was unplayable. he has never ever got the better of conrad smith ,or tana umaga. and jack fourie had his number on the last lions tour

Fourie didn't start the 2 tests that BOD played.

Phonehead · 11-09-2011 1:54pm

Honestly I am at a loss, a part of me expected things to click and everything to get on track for one big WC for so many players before they retire.

First things first, to those who keep coming out and saying we won and us negative folk need to get a life.... 2 consistent years of really poor performances, screw the gran-slam the year before, that was horrible rugby in a horrible six nations year.

Management and players are at fault, Management because quite frankly the management team are inept. The players, well the rest of the World think these guys are chookers and I am starting to agree that on the international stage our Golden era just can't pull up the man-suit and deliver when things are going wrong!

Declan Kidney's WC Management Thus Far (build up and currently)

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