Seal of Confession Part 2

georgieporgy

Looks like it was all a big misunderstanding.....

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-government-backs-down-on-confessional-bill-129443858.html

Speaking to reporters at the Fine Gael parliamentary party meeting in Galway, Minister Shatter said he did not anticipate any reference to the confessional in the new legislation.

:cool::cool::cool:

MrPudding

Did anyone ever say there would be? All along it has been said that this will be a law that will apply to all. Catholics then started moaning a out the seal of confession and how this law was an attack on their faith. It was repeatedly pointed out that it was a law for all and would not be specically aimed at priests or the confessional.

Congratulations on finally working out what people have been telling you since the original seal of confession thread started.

EDIT: Of course, not being mentioned specifically in the legislation means that in additional to not being specifically targeted, which was never the intention AFAIK, it is also unlikely to receive an exemption from the new law.

MrP

soterpisc

Common sense prevails.

Manach

MrPudding wrote: »

EDIT: Of course, not being mentioned specifically in the legislation means that in additional to not being specifically targeted, which was never the intention AFAIK, it is also unlikely to receive an exemption from the new law.

MrP

I think you are correct, in that it would be up to a Judge to decide how best to interpret the specific wording. The legal term, Expressio unius est exclusio alterius ("the express mention of one thing excludes all others"), might thus apply. ie if not explicted mentioned then it is not covered. However, this is a AFAIK.

gimmebroadband

Under the Criminal Law Act 1997 and the Offenses Against the State Act 1998, it's already an offense to withold knowledge of certain serious crimes, unless one has reasonable excuse for doing so.

Keaton

Mr Pudding, I feel pressed to respond.

The early rhetoric of the government did give rise to legitimate concern among Catholics.

The Irish justice minister has said that forthcoming child protection measures, including mandatory reporting will "apply regardless of any internal rules of any religious grouping".

Like the rules surrounding confession?

Last month Minister for Children Francis Fitzgerald insisted that there would be no exemptions for priests who heard admissions of child abuse during confession. The minister said that the new rules on mandatory reporting would apply to everyone and that there will be ''no exceptions, no exemptions”.

Right so.

The fact is, the minister has back-peddled, perhaps because he didn't quite envision all the difficulties his proposal would face, but which sharp-witted boards.ie members spotted and discussed at length. I shouldn't be surprised to hear that the Irish government is now monitoring this forum. =p

Note the softer, more reasonable language in the following recent statement:

Legislation put forward by the Irish government to require mandatory reporting of sex-abuse allegations will not specifically mention the matter, but a justice department official says that the bill does not provide an exemption for sacramental confession.

Justice minister Alan Shatter told reporters that the debate over preserving the confessional seal was "an entirely bogus issue." The point of the legislation, he said, was to ensure that anyone informed about the sexual abuse of children would report to police, "unless there is a reasonable excuse not to do so."

That statement by Shatter allowed for the possibility that sacramental confession would be exempt. Since priests undertake a solemn obligation never to reveal the content of confessions, under penalty of excommunication, they would clearly have a "reasonable excuse."

Both Shatter and children's minister Frances Fitzgerald told reporters that priests would be covered by the provisions of the new legislation. But those statements, too, left room for uncertainty. Priests would obviously be subject to the law under normal circumstances. The key question--which has been the subject of vigorous debate for several weeks--is whether confessions would be exempt.

An anonymous spokesman for the justice department appeared to answer that question, however, telling The Journal that the law "will apply regardless of any internal rules of any religious grouping."

That bogus issue which the minister and his assistant did nothing to dissipate, but instead aggravated the fears of Catholics about an attack on their confessional seal.

I dunno, but it seems to me that the minister is back-peddling now because he realises the confession aspect of this proposed law is unworkable. He is trying now to save face. Otherwise, wouldn't he have saved us all a lot of silly bother by making this clear when he made his original comments? Instead, he and his assistant caused a lot of grief and a lot of wasted time.

Meanwhile, the government still seems to be very confused and conflicted.

MrPudding

Keaton wrote: »

Mr Pudding, I feel pressed to respond.
The early rhetoric of the government did give rise to legitimate concern among Catholics.



Like the rules surrounding confession?



Right so.

The fact is, the minister has back-peddled, perhaps because he didn't quite envision all the difficulties his proposal would face, but which sharp-witted boards.ie members spotted and discussed at length. I shouldn't be surprised to hear that the Irish government is now monitoring this forum. =p

Note the softer, more reasonable language in the following recent statement:



That bogus issue which the minister and his assistant did nothing to dissipate, but instead aggravated the fears of Catholics about an attack on their confessional seal.

I dunno, but it seems to me that the minister is back-peddling now because he realises the confession aspect of this proposed law is unworkable. He is trying now to save face. Otherwise, wouldn't he have saved us all a lot of silly bother by making this clear when he made his original comments? Instead, he and his assistant caused a lot of grief and a lot of wasted time.

Meanwhile, the government still seems to be very confused and conflicted.

I really must be missing something; I can't see a climb down here. I appreciate that you are probably taking an optimistic reading of the latest statements, but I think, and indeed hope, that you will be sorely disappointed.


I don’t see the language as softer or more reasonable. The first line is quite important;

Justice Department Spokesperson wrote:

Legislation put forward by the Irish government to require mandatory reporting of sex-abuse allegations will not specifically mention the matter, but a justice department official says that the bill does not provide an exemption for sacramental confession.

So it will not specifically mention the confessional nor will it provide an exemption. That is really no different from anything that anyone has been saying from the start.

I presume you are hoping that the possible “unless there is a reasonable excuse not to do so” clause will cover the confessional? I would not be so certain. Most offenses will have a reasonable excuse defense, nothing new there. If the Irish courts follow the line of the British courts, which is not unknown, there is a possibility that the confessional would not be classed as a “reasonable excuse.” Recent cases in the UK have taken that the line that a person has a legally protected right to believe in religion, but the specific beliefs of that religion receive no such protection, particularly where they would interfere with he rights of another person.

The reasoning behind this is quite sound. Whilst your religious beliefs might seem quite reasonable to you, they may not be so reasonable to someone else. If you think about it, how would you like to be at the whim of every religious persons belief? Would you like it if pork could no longer be sold in Ireland? After all, it is someone’s religious belief that it should not be eaten…

Clearly you believe a couple fo things about your religion, for example, you believe it is correct and all others are wrong and you also probably believe that it is reasonable. Unfortunately not everyone shares your belief, and that is not just atheists like me, but also people of pretty much every other religion on the planet.

So what this boils down to is this, just because you think the seal of confession will provide a “reasonable excuse” does not mean that the courts will agree. Of course it might, but I don’t think it is as black and white as you think it is and I really don’t think this latest statement is a much, if any, of a climbdown as you seem to think it is.

MrP

gimmebroadband

It all boils down to the Goverment's assumption that the abuser will confess the sin in the Sacrament of Confession in the first place. What's to stop the abuser from confessing the sin in another juristiction/country?

Keaton

It doesn't really matter Mr Pudding what laws Ireland passes. Additionally, Britain has continued to respect the confessional seal.

The Catholic Church officially, and its individual priests, have said that they will honour and protect the confessional seal.

MrPudding

Keaton wrote: »

Additionally, Britain has continued to respect the confessional seal.

Yes, most unfortunate. But I am ever the optimist, and therefore firmly believe that they will wise up and see sense eventually.

MrP

Manach

Well it was only around 1828 that the UK allowed Catholic emancipation, so they might still be working out kinks in the system.

ISAW

Manach wrote: »

Well it was only around 1828 that the UK allowed Catholic emancipation, so they might still be working out kinks in the system.

Ironically it was the last Rainbow government that abolished the legal requirement to report a crime!

http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_203.shtml

the offense of misprision of felony has disappeared altogether. The act created the new offense of concealing an offense but it only applies to those who accept a consideration (bribe) for agreeing to conceal the offense. (Criminal Law Act, 1997 s. 8)

Monty.

I only recall Catholics defending the seal of confession when they were attacked on that actual seal. I also don't recall Catholics officially calling for any specific exemption in law for the Seal of Confession. The rest of the row is just the usual anti-Catholic mischief making and sophistry.
It was an offence to withhold any information regarding all criminal acts up until 1997, and the seal of confession never came into it. This general law should also be reinstated. Despite what the anti-Catholics would like to think, this current law proposal was not about singling out anyone.