Proud of our Nation

Voltex

We have all felt the effects of the mistakes of a few bankers over the last couple of years. We have seen the economy completly fall apart with the resulting pay cuts...increases in taxes...cuts in services.
But...having read part of the EU report on Irelands performance in the financial assitance program..I have to say Im very proud of what we have achieved.
We have gone through one of the most severe recessions any modern economy has endured...we have taken on levels of austerity of almost unthinkable levels..and regained lost competitivness at the rate of noughts.

It was when I read part of the report by the ECB/EU on Irelands performance in the financial assistance program that I realised just how proud I am of Ireland!
We have accepted our situation and responded in such a dignified and mature manor..that surely we are the envy of many Nations.

Well done Ireland!!!

wolf moon

Voltex wrote: »

Well done Ireland!!!

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/thread

Manach

This is the pride that a poodle feels when it does a trick for its master.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Exactly




courtesy of DE

ardmacha

Public wages have been protected by the Croke Park Agreement.

I think you mean that further savings have been achieved by the Croke Park agreement after the unprecedented 14% reduction in public wages.

However, as Morgan Kelly said we have a public finance problem that is on the way to being dealt with and a private finance problem whose extent is still not clear.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ardmacha

Not a word about the unprecedented 60 percent increase in public wages between 2001 and 2006, I see.

The OP was talking about the response to declining economic conditions, not the previous period. And of course private wages actually increased (slightly) more than public ones, as was pointed out here before.

the guiding principle of which is that that trends in public-sector wages should mirror those in private- sector wages

Firstly I did not complain about the reduction in wages, I simply stated that it was unprecedented. Secondly private sector wages in aggregate reduced by less than public sector ones and are not now falling in aggregate, just as public sector wages are not now falling. And while the principle of benchmarking has some worth, everyone knows the implementation was cack.

Debtocracy

Voltex wrote: »

We have gone through one of the most severe recessions any modern economy has endured...

and we’re now entering the start of a great depression. There is no escape from the event horizon that is debt saturation. We’re like a teacher’s pet that gets bullied and still gets bad grades. The only way we can maintain the same standard of living is by exponentially increasing the public deficit.

books4sale

Ya, as a company....sorry, country...Ireland Inc. will get there...so much pride.

.....just got to lose the dead weight now and we'll be motoring.

WalterMitty

Voltex wrote: »

We have all felt the effects of the mistakes of a few bankers over the last couple of years. We have seen the economy completly fall apart with the resulting pay cuts...increases in taxes...cuts in services.
But...having read part of the EU report on Irelands performance in the financial assitance program..I have to say Im very proud of what we have achieved.
We have gone through one of the most severe recessions any modern economy has endured...we have taken on levels of austerity of almost unthinkable levels..and regained lost competitivness at the rate of noughts.

It was when I read part of the report by the ECB/EU on Irelands performance in the financial assistance program that I realised just how proud I am of Ireland!
We have accepted our situation and responded in such a dignified and mature manor..that surely we are the envy of many Nations.

Well done Ireland!!!

are you for real? dont beleive everything pravda tell ya. Listen to the truth on the situation from Gurdiev, McWilliams, Somerville, morgan kelly,damien kiebard,et al

Icepick

OP, sarcasm is hard to distinguish on the Internet.

You weren't serious, right?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ardmacha

Pretty much everything about the past decade and a half in Ireland has been unprecedented, from the massive property bubble of 1996–2007 to the post-2008 multi-billion-euro bank bailouts and collapse of our public finances. However, I'm glad you aren't complaining about a 14 percent reduction in public wages after the dramatic increases of the previous decade.

The PS reductions were generally in the right order. My complaint would be that the detail of the reductions was unprincipled, there has been no real improvement of policy quality.

The wages of those who are still employed might not have fallen drastically, but it's disingenuous to exclude the unemployed 450,000 from any comparative analysis of the public and private sectors

.

Yes and no. There are many jobs in the private sector whose remuneration hasn't declined greatly or has even increased, because demand in these sectors is not very cyclical or is even counter cyclical. Most PS jobs are in this category.

The increase in unemployment does affect the overall envelope of public finances, which is not the same thing. Some of the postings here seem to imply that people who work for the government should be some sort of shareholder in the public finances, but those who propose this view do not seem to recognise that this meant that previous increases were more than justified, they only seem to see one side of the cycle. Other posters seem to suggest that if there are more unemployed that it is up to the public sector to receive less pay to provide for these folks, when this provision should be equally the responsibility of all citizens

jodaw

Well done OP...

Now we just need the IMF to privatise all of our state assets to pay off the rest of the bankers debts. Oh no but that wont be enough.

So continued taxes increases all around and cuts in every type of expenditure required...

Lives will be lost in hospitals, but we will not see that unless it is personal.

Good man. Great patriotism shown. Lets show the rest of Europe how easily we bend over and take it up the a**. When all is said and done we will return to being a small state on the periphery of Europe controlled by the center.

But we will be the envy of Europe for taking every thrown at us with great maturity

If i were born in Iceland and asked my opinion of Ireland. I would shake my head and say what a shower of muppets !!! But i was born in Ireland and i am ashamed to see my once great country being ripped to shreds by vultures before my very eyes!!!

The worst is indeed yet to come

RichardAnd

Am I proud of Ireland? Well, I love this country and I think it has a stunning natural beauty and a rich culture that is both unique and fascinating. In that sense, I'm proud of Ireland. What I am not however, it proud of Irish society.

Let's consider the following facets of our little nation.

• Who you know will get you alot further that what you know.
• Charlatans and chancers are not only tolerated, they are often admired.
• Begrudgery is a national addiction.
• Nothing can be taken in moderation, be it alcohol or credit.

And there are many more besides.

Voltex

I have this strange feeling of both being surprised and un-surprised both at the same time by the comments of my o.p
My original post was that I felt a sense of pride, that given the current turmoil in the markets (due to soverign debt issues) that the majority of affected/implicated Euro Nations are finding it increasingly difficult to implement austerity. The Greeks are just a plain basket case and are more likely to get the boot from the euro than the next IMF/EU tranche...the Italians just want to keep spending like Italians...the Spanish are in denial regarding their banking system and quietly ignoring 21% unemployment..the French are counting down the days to Soc Gen going tits up.....and will run out on a general strike if they thought they would have to work more than 35 hours a week...yet we irish have been kicked in the crotch with steel cap boots and retained the stiff upper lip!!

My point was that we know the medicine we have to take..and we have done so in a dignified mature manner and all the evidence is pointing towards validation of the path we are on.
Of course we have picked at and used up all the low hanging fruit...but im confident in our future!

yawha

I emigrated.

not yet

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Do you people ever fcuking stop........

PS workers including low paid have taken approx 15% pay cuts, have had to cover for numerous retiring staff,and still people like you begrudge a worker 22k a year or 28k a year. If your taking about higher paid PS workers why not clarify that.

not yet

books4sale wrote: »

Ya, as a company....sorry, country...Ireland Inc. will get there...so much pride.

.....just got to lose the dead weight now and we'll be motoring.

What dead weight would that be.?

WalterMitty

Voltex wrote: »

I have this strange feeling of both being surprised and un-surprised both at the same time by the comments of my o.p
My original post was that I felt a sense of pride, that given the current turmoil in the markets (due to soverign debt issues) that the majority of affected/implicated Euro Nations are finding it increasingly difficult to implement austerity. The Greeks are just a plain basket case and are more likely to get the boot from the euro than the next IMF/EU tranche...the Italians just want to keep spending like Italians...the Spanish are in denial regarding their banking system and quietly ignoring 21% unemployment..the French are counting down the days to Soc Gen going tits up.....and will run out on a general strike if they thought they would have to work more than 35 hours a week...yet we irish have been kicked in the crotch with steel cap boots and retained the stiff upper lip!!

My point was that we know the medicine we have to take..and we have done so in a dignified mature manner and all the evidence is pointing towards validation of the path we are on.
Of course we have picked at and used up all the low hanging fruit...but im confident in our future!

Wish i was an optimist like you. We are only 2 quarters into the eu/ecb/imf deal and some of the so called savings underCPA seem like window dressing. We are still around 17billion IIRC deficit. We are being praised only because we are teachers little pet as far as EU/ECB are concerned and are following their directions precisely so far, they want to use us as the good example that can be shown to greece/portugal /italy/spain in order to force them to cut deficits. Many many credible exconomist have criticised the ECB/EU deal and prescription of austerity while notburning bondholders as the wrong solution to our problems in europe as a whole.

We have as you said only picked the low hanging fruit and every billion cut or tax from here is gonna be painfull and make the whailing and knashing of teeth of past 3 years look like a picnic. There is also huge doubt over Irelands ability to sustain such a high level of debt relative to our GNP which wont grow much for a long time given the cuts and taxes and a weak global economy and emmigration etc.
Sorry if this sounds depressing but i cant put spin on the hard numbers and realities. Maybe im too gloomy but everything has gone agains irish economy in past 3 years.

WalterMitty

not yet wrote: »

Do you people ever fcuking stop........

PS workers including low paid have taken approx 15% pay cuts, have had to cover for numerous retiring staff,and still people like you begrudge a worker 22k a year or 28k a year. If your taking about higher paid PS workers why not clarify that.

Public sector pay and pension bill (Net)
2006-16.218billion At peak property bubble
2011-17.127billion after supposedly 3 years of austerity
So nearly 5% higher net pay and pensions bill since peak property bubble!

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2006-2011.pdf

SafeSurfer

RichardAnd wrote: »

Am I proud of Ireland? Well, I love this country and I think it has a stunning natural beauty and a rich culture that is both unique and fascinating. In that sense, I'm proud of Ireland. What I am not however, it proud of Irish society.

Let's consider the following facets of our little nation.

• Who you know will get you alot further that what you know.
• Charlatans and chancers are not only tolerated, they are often admired.
• Begrudgery is a national addiction.
• Nothing can be taken in moderation, be it alcohol or credit.

And thats what makes us unique.

Generally we have a disdain for law and order and an admiration for people who can pull a fast one. Our healthy disregard for authority is being quickly whittled away by ever increasing rules and regulations both domestic and EU, from health and safety to zero tolerence of issues such as speeding and drink driving while no resources are allocated to tackling equally serious problems such as our high suicide rate.

Our unique little Isle is being emasculated by over regulation, mostly to satisfy the needs of globalisation and our EU masters. Where once our British and catholic church masters sought to dominate every aspect of our lives and failed, our new masters are succeeding.

What once made this country, unique, special and refreshing is no more. We are little better than an extension of middle England in appearence with our unique spirit only surviving in ever decreasing numbers of Irish people who refuse to be patronised.

ardmacha

So nearly 5% higher net pay and pensions bill since peak property bubble!

Interesting link, WalterMitty.
More specifically a 1% decline in pay and a 66% increase in pensions.

WalterMitty

ardmacha wrote: »

Interesting link, WalterMitty.
More specifically a 1% decline in pay and a 66% increase in pensions.

Well if i was a low paid public servant i would be demanding high pensions over say average industrail wage of circa 35k are cut before front numbers or pay. No onw NEEDS more than that in retirement and those on such deals like judges,doctors, high level civil servants etc have paid only a fraction of the value of their pensions. Pass a law limiting all PS pensions to 35k max(have referendum same day as judges pay refurendum) and reduce pension levy on the lowest paid public servants who I beleive get a lousy return on pension compared to non contributory OAP and in relation to high level public servants.
We are forecast to have 200billion soverign debt in next few years and pension liabilities of state have beeen actuarially been costed at a hundred billion already for those currently employed and in retirement. Comapre that to Norway who have a similar poulation only have 50billion in debt but have a pension fund of 400billion for all future public service and non public service pensions and other social programmes. Interestingly cost of living is as high or higher there than here and indirect taxes are higher yet their public servants earn less than bankrupt ireland!

ChRoMe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Generally we have a disdain for law and order and an admiration for people who can pull a fast one.

I would be so much happier if this was true, but it blatantly isint. I now live in London and during any demonstration I've been on, Its depressed me that the tumbleweeds just roll by in Dublin, not a ****ing whimper out of the country.

Its one of the extremely rare occasions that I wish the Irish were more like the British.

Scofflaw

ChRoMe wrote: »

I would be so much happier if this was true, but it blatantly isint. I now live in London and during any demonstration I've been on, Its depressed me that the tumbleweeds just roll by in Dublin, not a ****ing whimper out of the country.

Its one of the extremely rare occasions that I wish the Irish were more like the British.

You could more generally say that we have a dislike of organisation and a certain admiration for those who break the rules. It's not about law and order specifically.

cordially,
Scofflaw

femur61

not yet wrote: »

Do you people ever fcuking stop........

PS workers including low paid have taken approx 15% pay cuts, have had to cover for numerous retiring staff,and still people like you begrudge a worker 22k a year or 28k a year. If your taking about higher paid PS workers why not clarify that.

Yeah but they are only this level because a) they are getting in line with rest of world due to EU/IMF insistance b) rest of population is getting very impatient with PS pay/pensions.

ChRoMe

Scofflaw wrote: »

You could more generally say that we have a dislike of organisation and a certain admiration for those who break the rules. It's not about law and order specifically.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Where is the evidence to support such claims, it seems to be a common trait in post colonial countries to just roll over and take any **** we get without a fight.

Christ, there is a poster on this very forum who claims to be *proud* of how Ireland has implemented the cuts for our masters, proud ffs.

Head The Wall

ardmacha wrote: »

I think you mean that further savings have been achieved by the Croke Park agreement after the unprecedented 14% reduction in public wages.

WalterMitty wrote: »

Public sector pay and pension bill (Net)
2006-16.218billion At peak property bubble
2011-17.127billion after supposedly 3 years of austerity
So nearly 5% higher net pay and pensions bill since peak property bubble!

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2006-2011.pdf

ardmacha wrote: »

Interesting link, WalterMitty.
More specifically a 1% decline in pay and a 66% increase in pensions.

This kinda makes a mockery of your 14% claim above, it shows exactly how we are dealing with the problem - which is not at all. There's another thread here which also rips apart the so called 600m savings of the CPA.

RichardAnd

ChRoMe wrote: »

Where is the evidence to support such claims, it seems to be a common trait in post colonial countries to just roll over and take any **** we get without a fight.

Christ, there is a poster on this very forum who claims to be *proud* of how Ireland has implemented the cuts for our masters, proud ffs.

Scofflaw is a dreadful europhile which gets on my nerves sometimes but in this case, I agree with what he's saying. Irish people seem to have a blatant disregard for authority regardless of where it might come from. I'm not a fan of rolling over and taking crap from europeans or anyone else but I do think that respect is appropriate where leadership is shown.

That, I believe, was the point he wished to make

ChRoMe

RichardAnd wrote: »

Irish people seem to have a blatant disregard for authority regardless of where it might come from.

Obviously not, in whatever context you want to refer to.

femur61

Head The Wall wrote: »

This kinda makes a mockery of your 14% claim above, it shows exactly how we are dealing with the problem - which is not at all. There's another thread here which also rips apart the so called 600m savings of the CPA.

I actually can't wait for my kids to leave because hopefully they'll choose a place to live that is somewhere I'd like because, I intend to buy a house near them.

sarumite

I am not proud with the inequality of austerity. Some have government assurances of no more pay cuts or job cuts whereas others have neither. Some have had been given massive payouts after contriburing towards bankrupting the country while others are on the verge of losing everything. Some who helped creat the problems can retire in luxury while others have just been unfortuante to see their retirement funds decimated. No pride here. The uneven hand of austerity is shameful in my view.

ChRoMe

sarumite wrote: »

I am not proud with the inequality of austerity. Some have government assurances of no more pay cuts or job cuts whereas others have neither. Some have had been given massive payouts after contriburing towards bankrupting the country while others are on the verge of losing everything. Some who helped creat the problems can retire in luxury while others have just been unfortuante to see their retirement funds decimated. No pride here. The uneven hand of austerity is shameful in my view.

As always in these situations its the vulnerable that are attacked most.

irishh_bob

RichardAnd wrote: »

Scofflaw is a dreadful europhile which gets on my nerves sometimes but in this case, I agree with what he's saying. Irish people seem to have a blatant disregard for authority regardless of where it might come from. I'm not a fan of rolling over and taking crap from europeans or anyone else but I do think that respect is appropriate where leadership is shown.

That, I believe, was the point he wished to make

thats a largely baseless view IMO , we might be somewhat contemptous of rules and regulations but when push comes to shove , we do what we are told , the irish goverments good two shoes approach to dealing with the EU this past three years is a perfect example of this

HellFireClub

Voltex wrote: »

We have all felt the effects of the mistakes of a few bankers over the last couple of years. We have seen the economy completly fall apart with the resulting pay cuts...increases in taxes...cuts in services.
But...having read part of the EU report on Irelands performance in the financial assitance program..I have to say Im very proud of what we have achieved.
We have gone through one of the most severe recessions any modern economy has endured...we have taken on levels of austerity of almost unthinkable levels..and regained lost competitivness at the rate of noughts.

It was when I read part of the report by the ECB/EU on Irelands performance in the financial assistance program that I realised just how proud I am of Ireland!
We have accepted our situation and responded in such a dignified and mature manor..that surely we are the envy of many Nations.

Well done Ireland!!!

I don't think I've ever read a post on this site that I disagree more with. Firstly, the we have a whole sector of Irish society that has been completely insulated from any actual austerity whatsoever, in particular the Irish public sector. Pay cuts and pension levies that from an artifically high PS salary, that still leaves you on an artifically high PS salary, does not constitute austerity.

We are utterly unable to create ANY jobs in this country because notwithstanding the fact that all our banks are now in public ownership, we STILL cannot get them to lend to businesses that hire people, so more businesses are forced to close, more businesses cannot even start to trade, so more people are kept in unemployment and so it continues.

Most Irish people are afraid to start up a business, instead the smart money is on getting the IDA to throw money at foreign multinationals that used to come here for the Corporate Tax rate, and our government reckon that if they can get more low skilled FDI based jobs here, that they have Paddy trained to put the stickers onto the boxes. Now the same multinationals know that we are seriously uncompetitive here, and that the cost of doing business here is still rediculously high, 3 years into a recession, so they locate elsewhere, as we have seen from TalkTalk last week.

There is nothing I can see to be proud about when looking at what we are doing in this country.

Sleepy

Am I proud of this country?

Our countrymen elected a corrupt bunch of incompetent gombeen men repeatedly while they squandered an economic boom on their vanity projects and lining the pockets of their friends whilst telling their intellectual superiors to commit suicide?

The same countrymen who took delight in the way the housing bubble meant they could earn money whilst holding education in scorn? The same education that could have helped them see the bubble for what it was? In a "good" secondary school in Galway I shared an economics class with not one, but three, guys who didn't even bother to sit the exam after acting the maggot for the two years and disturbing the rest of our education.

The same countrymen who'll support the English premiership whilst deriding the country at every opportunity?

And you're asking me if I'm proud to be part of these people? Am I ****, I'm mortified by an awful lot of them.

Welease

HellFireClub wrote: »

I don't think I've ever read a post on this site that I disagree more with. Firstly, the we have a whole sector of Irish society that has been completely insulated from any actual austerity whatsoever, in particular the Irish public sector. Pay cuts and pension levies that from an artifically high PS salary, that still leaves you on an artifically high PS salary, does not constitute austerity.

While it seems somewhat against the grain of popular opinion (the same popular opinion that guaranteed property as a sure fire win!)... the PS are not the only sector of society who have been insulated from austerity (in fact they took much larger paycuts then I have taken).. the simple fact remains that in reality there has been sod all austerity for a large amount of people in this country.

It's nigh on impossible to say this without the usual low rent responses (which I fully expect).. but a huge amount of Irish society will piss and moan about a few hundred quid extra charges in the year, but they still earn colossal amounts compared to other EU countries (myself included).. Yes, there have been collapses in the building sectors, but those sectors which were vibrant before continue to be vibrant since... and many people continue to earn very good wages, not just the PS.

Our impression of austerity seems to be living on a bit less than the boom years... that's hardly austerity....

Crazy Horse 6

Yeah i'm proud of how we have asked the poor,the disabled,the blind,the coping classes etc... to pay of the gambling debts of the rich. They say you judge the greatness of a country on how it treats the most needy of that society, Ireland a country to be truely ashamed of.

RichardAnd

HellFireClub wrote: »

I don't think I've ever read a post on this site that I disagree more with. Firstly, the we have a whole sector of Irish society that has been completely insulated from any actual austerity whatsoever, in particular the Irish public sector. Pay cuts and pension levies that from an artifically high PS salary, that still leaves you on an artifically high PS salary, does not constitute austerity.

Public servants have seen their wages reduce through extra taxes and the pension levy. I know the latter is often quoted as not being a pay cut but in the same manner that increments are pay increases, anything that reduces an income can be called a cut.

Now, putting that aside, you're speaking as if the public service is one group of 300k people that live in a floating castle and never come down. A clerical officer might still have her job but it's entirely possible that her husband has lost his and that their family is no dependant on her sole income. Thus, her life has become harder therefore she has not been spared any personal austerity.

From what I've seen of your posts, you have an aggressive dislike of the public service in general. Now I don't question why that is so, you could have a very good reason but civil servants are mothers, fathers, sons and daughters with dependants in the same manner as any private sector employee. They are not a seperate group, they're people just like you and me and they are affected by the same problems at the end of it all.

sarumite

RichardAnd wrote: »

That is nonsense. Public servants have seen their wages reduce through extra taxes and the pension levy. I know the latter is often quoted as not being a pay cut but in the same manner that increments are pay increases, anything that reduces an income can be called a cut.

Gross pay up =pay rise, gross pay down=pay cut. If someone in the private sector sees the overall value of their pension drop by 7.5% average, they haven't taken a pay cut.

Now, putting that aside, you're speaking as if the public service is one group of 300k people that live in a floating castle and never come down. A clerical officer might still have her job but it's entirely possible that her husband has lost his and that their family is no dependant on her sole income. Thus, her life has become harder therefore she has not been spared any personal austerity.

Equally both could be in the private, both lose their jobs and they have suffered twice. There is no moral justification for the government to enter into any deal with anyone that creates a seperate group of people who's jobs are immune from the ever worsening situation of the economy. While their wider circumstances may have been affected (as per the hypthetical argument you pose) the government has created a defacto two teir society; those with a government assurance and those without. If you want to go down the road and label me a PS basher or a begrudger, have at it. I am tired of the above emotive arguments. My problem isn't with the PS worker, its with the past and the current government insistence on continuing to implement a morally reprehensible agreement.

HellFireClub

RichardAnd wrote: »

Public servants have seen their wages reduce through extra taxes and the pension levy. I know the latter is often quoted as not being a pay cut but in the same manner that increments are pay increases, anything that reduces an income can be called a cut.

Now, putting that aside, you're speaking as if the public service is one group of 300k people that live in a floating castle and never come down. A clerical officer might still have her job but it's entirely possible that her husband has lost his and that their family is no dependant on her sole income. Thus, her life has become harder therefore she has not been spared any personal austerity.

From what I've seen of your posts, you have an aggressive dislike of the public service in general. Now I don't question why that is so, you could have a very good reason but civil servants are mothers, fathers, sons and daughters with dependants in the same manner as any private sector employee. They are not a seperate group, they're people just like you and me and they are affected by the same problems at the end of it all.

I never had any issue with PS workers until relatively recently, when I had to deal with a load of them in the dole office and in government departments when I was trying to get off the dole.

I can't agree that they are the same as non PS workers, their attitude to their responsibilities from my recollection are smugly grounded in the fact that they are to every extent, beyond any professional reproach. Their attitude is also infected with a sense that the slightest thing that you might need to get done, that isn't in their job description, is simply someone else's job. There is an uncanny ability to fob off people like myself and yourself who just might have to get some particular issue sorted. They are the absolute masters at running beaurocratic rings around people, of rejecting any request unless it is accompanied with a reams of paperwork, that they will always need "for the file".

There is an inherent selfishness to the PS worker that I have personally experienced first hand in every attempt that I have made to deal with them and it's an experience that I intend to carry right through the rest of my life. Make no mistake about it, these folks are now hunkered down and have completely entrenched themselves in their positions, secure from any real accountability whatsoever. You have people on 60k and 70k salaries trying to convince some of us living on 188 Euro a week, (as I was until recently), that they are poorly paid and that the government and the Irish people are trying to walk over them. Meanwhile you have small business owners in Ireland who the banks are expecting to put their family homes on the line in terms of security, for continued assess to a business overdraft, and these guys are lucky to pay themselves 35k a year and these people are the people who are carrying the economy on their shoulders and getting on with it, no Croke Park Agreement for these people or standing on Molesworth Street listening to Jack O' Connor up on the back of a trailer.

CrystalLettuce

Regardless of Wages and Welfare, our services are obviously underfunded and Austerity measures hitting them hard. I think the main issue is that people fear even harsher methods though, which will only harm the economy in the long run. But the political right only care about ideology.

CrystalLettuce

Voltex wrote: »

I have this strange feeling of both being surprised and un-surprised both at the same time by the comments of my o.p
My original post was that I felt a sense of pride, that given the current turmoil in the markets (due to soverign debt issues) that the majority of affected/implicated Euro Nations are finding it increasingly difficult to implement austerity. The Greeks are just a plain basket case and are more likely to get the boot from the euro than the next IMF/EU tranche...the Italians just want to keep spending like Italians...the Spanish are in denial regarding their banking system and quietly ignoring 21% unemployment..the French are counting down the days to Soc Gen going tits up.....and will run out on a general strike if they thought they would have to work more than 35 hours a week...yet we irish have been kicked in the crotch with steel cap boots and retained the stiff upper lip!!

My point was that we know the medicine we have to take..and we have done so in a dignified mature manner and all the evidence is pointing towards validation of the path we are on.
Of course we have picked at and used up all the low hanging fruit...but im confident in our future!

But you have everything the wrong way around. Is there a scientific basis for the "Medicine" we have to take?

Austerity measures harm the Economy in the long run. Reducing spending power at the lower levels reduces growth. If you're rich, it's grand, but then again it usually is.

You say "Dignified Mature Manner", I say "Whipped".

This austerity is a right wing ideal. It is not an absolute fact that we must engage in measures. Our austerity of course is rather mild compared to how poor it has made Greece, and the media spreads lies about them being lazy socialists. Disgusting. But then again, at the end of the day, this is all about dishonesty and moral bankruptcy.

ardmacha

Gross pay up =pay rise, gross pay down=pay cut. If someone in the private sector sees the overall value of their pension drop by 7.5% average, they haven't taken a pay cut.

it is ridiculous that these kind of posts are continuing. The pension levy removes money from the employee and gives it to the employer and has been described as a pay cut by the Minister of Finance. It is a pay cut.

Why don't introduce they a 150% pension levy, this would raise a lot of money and obviously wouldn't cause any problems as it would not cut pay.

thebman

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

But you have everything the wrong way around. Is there a scientific basis for the "Medicine" we have to take?

Austerity measures harm the Economy in the long run. Reducing spending power at the lower levels reduces growth. If you're rich, it's grand, but then again it usually is.

You say "Dignified Mature Manner", I say "Whipped".

This austerity is a right wing ideal. It is not an absolute fact that we must engage in measures. Our austerity of course is rather mild compared to how poor it has made Greece, and the media spreads lies about them being lazy socialists. Disgusting. But then again, at the end of the day, this is all about dishonesty and moral bankruptcy.

I'm sorry but the austerity is a basic Math ideal at best but commonly referred to as common sense to live within your means. Outline a viable alternative please?

CrystalLettuce

thebman wrote: »

I'm sorry but the austerity is a basic Math ideal at best but commonly referred to as common sense to live within your means. Outline a viable alternative please?

There aren't "Basic" Maths in economics, that's the point. Nor is it like a household. When you take money out of an economy, recovery becomes more difficult. As said before, our main problem is not with spending.

This is what the Trioka et. all are relying on, people like you thinking it's common sense.

Please read up on the UN report that looks into the matter.

http://www.stwr.org/global-financial-crisis/un-warns-austerity-plans-damage-economic-recovery.html

Also this made some good points -


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-hooray-were-back-on-track-again-2873035.html

The report points out: "A national economy does not function in the same way as an individual firm or household. The latter may be able to increase savings by cutting back spending because such a cutback does not affect its revenues."

However, state cutbacks have a "negative impact on aggregate demand and the tax base will lead to lower fiscal revenues and therefore hamper fiscal consolidation".

Result? "An improvement in the immediate cash flow of the government, but with negative consequences for long-term fiscal and debt sustainability." Plus high unemployment and socially unacceptable income distribution, since the weakest are hit hardest.

I think this part of the report addresses your argument rather nicely.

People keep saying there is no option but austerity, yet austerity is what kills an economy...

thebman

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

There aren't "Basic" Maths in economics, that's the point. Nor is it like a household. When you take money out of an economy, recovery becomes more difficult. As said before, our main problem is not with spending.

This is what the Trioka et. all are relying on, people like you thinking it's common sense.

Please read up on the UN report that looks into the matter.

http://www.stwr.org/global-financial-crisis/un-warns-austerity-plans-damage-economic-recovery.html

Also this made some good points -


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-hooray-were-back-on-track-again-2873035.html



I think this part of the report addresses your argument rather nicely.

People keep saying there is no option but austerity, yet austerity is what kills an economy...

I didn't ask you to explain why austerity harms the economy, I asked you to explain your method that doesn't hurt the economy but fixes the problem of us spending more than we take in.

CrystalLettuce

The UN report, if you'd bother to read it, actually makes some suggestions, by people more qualified than me and less biased than IMF/ECB Jobbos.

You said Austerity is a "basic Math ideal". It is not. If you were even simply not to make those cuts, you would likely find after a given period you were not actually any worse off since the economy was given far more breathing room. Austerity only works in the short term, and not even in terms of "Until the end of the recession", more like "Until the end of the year". The failure of austerity in Greece is showing this. Also, Iceland are still technically somewhat better off than us(lower unemployment) after NOT taking "The Only" route.

If something makes things worse, then it cannot be the "Only option". The only benefit to our Austerity is the fact that we got the IMF/ECB loan at a lower rate than we normally would on the market - but that's only because we aligned our ideals with theirs. If we had better negotiators, it wouldn't be necessary.

I'm curious as to where all this money goes anyway, especially in the case of the IMF. They don't have to put it back into running a country, since they always operate at a profit. A profit that's a large part of a given nation's GDP. At the expense, in some cases, of quite poor nations. Do you really trust an entity like that?

thebman

CrystalLettuce wrote: »

The UN report, if you'd bother to read it, actually makes some suggestions, by people more qualified than me and less biased than IMF/ECB Jobbos.

You said Austerity is a "basic Math ideal". It is not. If you were even simply not to make those cuts, you would likely find after a given period you were not actually any worse off since the economy was given far more breathing room. Austerity only works in the short term, and not even in terms of "Until the end of the recession", more like "Until the end of the year". The failure of austerity in Greece is showing this. Also, Iceland are still technically somewhat better off than us(lower unemployment) after NOT taking "The Only" route.

If something makes things worse, then it cannot be the "Only option". The only benefit to our Austerity is the fact that we got the IMF/ECB loan at a lower rate than we normally would on the market - but that's only because we aligned our ideals with theirs. If we had better negotiators, it wouldn't be necessary.

I'm curious as to where all this money goes anyway, especially in the case of the IMF. They don't have to put it back into running a country, since they always operate at a profit. A profit that's a large part of a given nation's GDP. At the expense, in some cases, of quite poor nations. Do you really trust an entity like that?

The UN report offers no recommendations for what Ireland should do specifically. It gives vague notions about how we could possible avoid the situation again and nothing more.. It might as well say, well I wouldn't start from here to be sure to be sure.

You can keep pointing at a document that doesn't offer an alternative way out of this for Ireland or you can outline your own position but I imagine it isn't a credible position which is why you can't outline the alternative.