Modern Diesel's - Really that bad ???

The Bishop Basher

Reading on here most people would have you believe that modern diesels are totally unreliable, expensive to fix and not worth buying unless your travelling half way round the world and back every week.

I bought a 535D six months ago and love the car. I don't do big mileage but tbh I just got tired of forking out the extra 6c for petrol that only got me about 2 thirds as far as a tank full of diesel.

Now i can put the foot down "guilt free" and I don't worry about driving style or needle watching.

That said, I don't have the car long enough to comment on reliability. I do however know a lot of people driving diesels and not doing big mileage and I have never heard of any of them having the issues or expensive servicing and repair bills mentioned on here.

So aside from a few known issues with specific manufacturers, are diesel's really as bad as everyone makes out ?

cjt156

I don't think everyone makes out they are that bad. Quite the opposite. Modern diesels have come a long way in performance and economy. However some of the additional technologies they incorporate can be prone to failure.

DPF, DMF, turbos, EGR valve, swirl flaps; these are used extensively on a huge range of cars now that never had them before. And if even a few of these are problematic they can add ammunition to the 'diesels are crap' argument.

Having said that I'll never drive a diesel - its the devil's jism as far as I'm concerned.

...tongue in cheek, don't drag this up in the future when I finally give in to the dark side...

I think you're painting a false picture of folk's comments on here. When someone asks about issues on diesels the likes of DMF, injector issues, turbo issues etc obviously gets mentioned. Any one with any appreciation of risk and occurance can acknowledge that the issues don't happen to all or even most of the cars. They are still issues though.

The Bishop Basher

Maybe so.

I suppose i'm coming from the angle that this forum made me nervous as hell buying a diesel but i've never met anyone who's had any of these problems.

Any time Diesel is mentioned, you'd be forgiven for thinking your going to have turbo failure at some point as a certainty.

Is there anecdotal evidence to suggest that Diesels are more expensive to service / repair because i'm just not aware of any.

and cjt156 - I too thought it was the devils jism till I climed into the 535D. The only drawback that I can see is a miniscule lag and that poxy diesel noise at low revs in first gear :eek:

MugMugs

Driving a petrol Mondeo this morning. I had to keep rolling down the window to make sure the engine was still running.

Silly quiet petrol.

As said DMF, DPF and EGR valves are prone to trouble. In the same breath, 100,000 miles is just the start of a well used diesel car. I could and would never buy a petrol motor again. Not on my mileage.

EPM

I find it's better to allow for the costs of these items when purchasing a diesel. I bought mine knowing that in the next 2-3 years that there may be a couple of grand spent between a DPF and DMF. I did the math, it still worked out cheaper than other cars that I was interested in buying.

Your use will have a huge effect on diesel reliability. It seems that the people that don't need a diesel are the ones that will be paying the most in repairs.

The Bishop Basher

EPM wrote: »

I find it's better to allow for the costs of these items when purchasing a diesel. I bought mine knowing that in the next 2-3 years that there may be a couple of grand spent between a DPF and DMF. I did the math, it still worked out cheaper than other cars that I was interested in buying.

Agreed. You go in with your eyes open but as with any car really, you take a chance and hope you don't ever need to fork out on expensive repairs.

EPM wrote: »

Your use will have a huge effect on diesel reliability. It seems that the people that don't need a diesel are the ones that will be paying the most in repairs.

This is my point. I work with people who drive diesels and do low mileage. A number of my friends drive diesels and they are "run about town" cars. Members of my family have diesels and wouldn't do more then 10k a year. Yet none of them to my knowledge have experienced DPF, DMF, Swirl Flap or Valve failures. Not one. I just don't see any anecdotal evidence whatsoever.

The only issues i've seen have been flywheels on Vag's and Santa Fe's. Both well known and well documented problems.

EPM

How old are the cars? DPF's are relatively recent in a lot of diesels. DMF's are there a while.

They could be lucky with the cars, they could be stung next week. Not all the parts fail. My car needed a DPF at 44k km thanks to the original owners use. I'm hoping with my use it won't need one for the life of the car tbh.

BuzzFish

My Diesel now has 195,000 Miles on the clock (I bought it at 110k). When I was buying it I was warned of DMF's, ERG's, Turbo failures etc etc and the following list of repairs referring to these items show's the attention I should have paid to such "advice"

1.

fin
:-)

Swanner

Swanner wrote: »

.............


This is my point. I work with people who drive diesels and do low mileage. A number of my friends drive diesels and they are "run about town" cars. Members of my family have diesels and wouldn't do more then 10k a year. Yet none of them to my knowledge have experienced DPF, DMF, Swirl Flap or Valve failures. ............

Are their cars DPF equipped? Conceptually running a DPF equipped car an an urban runner can only lead to it becoming blocked as it can never regenerate.
I personally encountered DMF failure on a new ish Mondeo diesel in 2005 so I am all to aware that it is no boards.ie myth
Turbo problems on diesels are generally due to poor servicing and sometime fragile design. I had a 12 year old turbo diesel on the original turbo and there was no bother with it, none of the old VAG 1.9 stuff has turbo issues to speak of either.
I dunno what you mean by valve failures tbh.

L-M

They are that bad.

I must hear a story a day where a modern diesel is at fault.

The likes of the 1.6 Ford diesels that every Joe Soap is buying is going to cause an awful lot of hassle in years to come.

Just one very recent example

08 Focus 1.6 diesel, 100,000kms

Engine management

Shows up 6 faults, 5 cleared, one fault remains.

Some diesel additive that's located under the back axle has to be replaced. Ford price? 450 euro.

11 Cmax 1.6 TDCI 6,000 kms.

Stopped up three times with no power for the owner since April. DPF etc. clogged.

Computeres needs "updating"

They're going to break peoples hearts, and it's a completely false economy for those who don't do big mileage.

Brian?

I think when it comes to diesel you really need to look at how much and the type of mileage you're going to do. If it's for a school run, short trips or city driving you want a petrol. This kind of driving doesn't get the best out of a diesel and actually does the car harm.

If you do a lot of motorway driving and high mileage then get a diesel.

JJJJNR

Well you see swanner most people come on here to moan about their cars, and get recommendations if theres an issue, there are a lot of people who work in the trade who see issues day in day out, with the new c02 all they are seeing are diesels.

You'll hardly ever see anyone coming on here saying how great their diesel is and if they do they'll be moved on and branded a fan boi.

The Bishop Basher

These cars would be mixed in age to be fair.

What about taking the car out on the motorway for a serious burn once a week. Can that help the DPF ?

Limerick man - that's the kind of evidence i'm looking for although to be fair, they're all Fords Not saying there's anything wrong with Fords, just that there's a common link.

Buzzfish's exeperience from what I can see, seems to be the norm.

I'll probably end up with a turbo failure now just for staring this thread :eek:

Swanner

Swanner wrote: »

.........
Limerick man - that's the kind of evidence i'm looking for although to be fair, they're all Fords Not saying there's anything wrong with Fords, just that there's a common link.............

They're not ford engines though, they're the PSA lump from Peugeot, also found in Volvo and other cars too

MugMugs

Don't diss Ford. Their better than some of the other popular branded sh1te out there and the TDCI isn't the "worst" imo.

L-M

Sorry, should of said that.

Also, pretty much everyone of them that I've heard reach 100k miles blows a turbo.

Hence why people are making a living out of them,

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2311024

The Bishop Basher

RoverJames wrote: »

They're not ford engines though, they're the PSA lump from Peugeot, also found in Volvo and other cars too

Fair point

BuzzFish

Limerick man wrote: »

Sorry, should of said that.

Also, pretty much everyone of them that I've heard reach 100k miles blows a turbo.

Hence why people are making a living out of them,

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2311024

except mine... and fingers crossed it may even see 200k on 1st turbo. Even if it doesn't it's outlasted most petrols of similar mileage.

L-M

BuzzFish wrote: »

except mine... and fingers crossed it may even see 200k on 1st turbo. Even if it doesn't it's outlasted most petrols of similar mileage.

What do you have?

_Conrad_

cjt156 wrote: »

I don't think everyone makes out they are that bad. Quite the opposite. Modern diesels have come a long way in performance and economy. However some of the additional technologies they incorporate can be prone to failure.

DPF, DMF, turbos, EGR valve, swirl flaps; these are used extensively on a huge range of cars now that never had them before. And if even a few of these are problematic they can add ammunition to the 'diesels are crap' argument.

Having said that I'll never drive a diesel - its the devil's jism as far as I'm concerned.

...tongue in cheek, don't drag this up in the future when I finally give in to the dark side...

You mean when he's fired that evil devil sauce right in your eye and you've just accepted it? I'll try not to.....

pajo1981

FWIW, approaching 100k miles 320d[177BHP], mostly urban with the odd long run and not a single issue -touch wood.

BuzzFish

Limerick man wrote: »

What do you have?

A 2005 Alfa 156 1.9mJTD .... and no I'm not winding you up :-)

BuzzFish

BuzzFish wrote: »

A 2005 Alfa 156 1.9mJTD .... and no I'm not winding you up :-)

So it's not 1.6 PSA diesel powered so

b318isp

Over 5 years of breakdowns for our cars:

A) VW 1.9 PD TDi Engine from 37,000 to 101,000 miles
- Turbo = €1300
- Flywheel /w clutch = €1200
- 4 driveshafts = €500
- 2 MAFs = €200
TOTAL=€3200
(also aircon condensor went, but that's not engine related)

BMW 1.8 petrol from 145,000 to 205,000 miles
- Timing chain idler: €600
- Fuel pump: €240
TOTAL=€840.

Any savings from fuel were approximately cancelled in repairs. I was always crapping that either an injector or fuel problem would surface on the diesel too.

Plug

Diesels are great now compared to 20 years ago but now they are prone to expensive problems. I wouldn't recommend a diesel to anyone who dosen't do high mileage. Someday in the not so far future they will start giving expensive repair bills.

spank_inferno

So how may miles would be considered adequate?

For example , we take delivery next week of a 2ltr VAG diesel car (CR-170ps)

Our usage will be a 28 mile commute of the N11/M50/Sandyford each way 5-6 days per week.

So around 350 miles of largely motorway driving a week.

Should we be worried?

InchicoreDude

briankeating wrote: »

I think when it comes to diesel you really need to look at how much and the type of mileage you're going to do. If it's for a school run, short trips or city driving you want a petrol. This kind of driving doesn't get the best out of a diesel and actually does the car harm.

If you do a lot of motorway driving and high mileage then get a diesel.

And if you do a mixture? What would be "a lot of motorway driving"?

stimpson

As one of the silent majority, just traded in a 2010 Avensis with 30k on the clock. Mostly city driving with a long drive every other weekend. Never even a hint of an issue. Traded it in for another 2.0 d4d.

The main advice I got (from a diesel fitter) was it needs a long run every now and then to regenerate the DPF and to try to keep the revs around peak torque - 1500 to 2400 in my case. Apparently constant accelerating from below 1500 rpm is what causes premature DMF failure.

Oh, the father in law recently had the head gasket go on his 1.9 Citroën. At 250,000 miles.

Hiace.

Swanner wrote: »

Reading on here most people would have you believe that modern diesels are totally unreliable, expensive to fix and not worth buying unless your travelling half way round the world and back every week.

In purely economical terms, there is a break even point with diesel cars, depends on a lot of factors, inc. fuel costs etc. At the moment it's very roughly about 20k miles per year for a pre 08 car. Brand new it's probably a lot less.

Swanner wrote: »

I bought a 535D six months ago and love the car.

Nice choice mate, and health to enjoy it.

Swanner wrote: »

So aside from a few known issues with specific manufacturers, are diesel's really as bad as everyone makes out ?

What is also annoying is that diesel is a very crude fuel compared to petrol, petrol is far more refined, and therefore diesel should be so much cheaper. When diesel started to became popular in the 80's, it was half the price of petrol. We are being fleeced today.

Many of us know a lot of the extra technology is not needed, it's just added to make the cars more disposable and force us all to buy more parts and main dealer servicing and to placate the green lobby.

Also complex modern diesels are very sensitive to fuel quality, whereas Paddy prefers to use no brand shyte fuel.

I've been driving diesels since the 80's (and people thought I was a crank for having one).
They are dirtier, smellier, nosier, more expensive and more unnecessarily complex compared to petrol’s. I do a lot of miles, and if I could afford to drive a petrol, I would drive a petrol every time, especially when buying second hand. If I was buying new, I'd probably be forced to buy a diesel though, in order to get a good trade in value when I sold it again, as that’s the way group think works.

Nissan doctor

I don't think modern diesels are unreliable as such. Its just that they have come on so quickly with the sudden world panic about emissions as well as tax incentives that essentially most of the technology in them is brand new and therefor perhaps not fully perfected and certainly not cheap yet.

I mean fuel injection on cars 30 odd years ago was very unreliable and would have been equally as expensive to repair. But now, after years of developing and perfecting its rare for fuel injectors on petrol cars too give trouble.

People are saying turbo's and egr valves but I don't think that they are specifically relevant to diesels.
If you have a petrol car and do lots of short trips you can clog up the egr just as easily and as for turbos, they are no more prone to failure on a diesel then on a petrol, it just seems like they are because most diesels have turbo's, whereas most petrol's don't so when people hear of turbo failure chances are it was a diesel just because maybe 80%(utter guess) of turbo's on the road are diesel.

DMF's and DPF's are both technology that has been hastily(imo) rushed onto cars to 1) get rid of the 'smokey' diesels of old and 2) to try to hide the fact that diesels are not as smooth as petrol's.

The reason short drives don't suit either of these is that DMF's are designed to be a wearable part(rightly or wrongly) so using them in slow traffic or for short trips etc, like any parts, will wear them out faster then doing longer drives/motorway driving.
DPF's are the same, they need to build up a certain temperature to regenerate(burn off the built up soot/particulates) and low rpm city driving and short drives never allows them to do this...leading to issues.

Also specific oils are required for modern diesels with DPF's and given the general quality of servicing in this country, many cars may not be getting the correct oils which will only add to the issues.


Jese that turned into a long one....:o

L-M

Plug wrote: »

Diesels are great now compared to 20 years ago but now they are prone to expensive problems. I wouldn't recommend a diesel to anyone who dosen't do high mileage. Someday in the not so far future they will start giving expensive repair bills.

Can't agree with that. A friend of mine drives a 1.6 TD Jetta and gets absolutely epic mpg, gives it loads of abuse and it never lets him down/ fails to start.

Nissan doctor

Limerick man wrote: »

Can't agree with that. A friend of mine drives a 1.6 TD Jetta and gets absolutely epic mpg, gives it loads of abuse and it never lets him down/ fails to start.

I'd presume he means great now compared to petrols for power, improvements in refinement etc etc

Diesels years ago got great mpg and were unbreakable, especially N/A diesels, almost to the extent that it didn't matter what you put in the tank or how much oil was in it. Now diesels are more akin to high performance petrol engines, they need very specific maintenance and usage to keep them as reliable as possible.

L-M

His has plenty of poke, albeit about 70bhp, for the size of the car it's well able to move.

Plug

Limerick man wrote: »

Can't agree with that. A friend of mine drives a 1.6 TD Jetta and gets absolutely epic mpg, gives it loads of abuse and it never lets him down/ fails to start.

I meant as in drive ability, power etc so much better. In fairness what would you prefer, a 1.9TDI direct injection or a 1.6 daysul?:p


The thing now is, they are trying to revolutionize petrol engines. The new Ford ecoboost engines for example come equipped with direct injection, turbo, vacuum pump, variable valve timing, duel mass flywheel, EGR valve and variable oil pump. *Edit* Electronic thermostat as well.

Let the battle begin:pac:

maidhc

Most engines are fine once people obey two simple rules:

1) Change the oil on time.
2) Drive with an element of mechanical sympathy.

Hiace.

Plug wrote: »

The thing now is, they are trying to revolutionize petrol engines. The new Ford ecoboost engines for example come equipped with direct injection, turbo, vacuum pump, variable valve timing, duel mass flywheel, EGR valve and variable oil pump.

That's petrols fcked now too.
More scams. Mechanics will be the new property developers.

Mycroft H

How are people feeling about theses low displacement, highly tuned petrol engined cars a la the 1.2TSI VW lump?

I can guarantee that these will be as costly to replace parts as the equivalent diesel.....

TheBazman

I have a 2007 LCI 535d with 168k kms - and still going very strong - no issues outside of regular running costs - long may it last

pat127

Swanner wrote: »

What about taking the car out on the motorway for a serious burn once a week. Can that help the DPF ?

I know there are people on here who know all about this but for what it's worth, it's my understanding that it will, dependent on the make of car. Some cars have 'active regeneration', (e.g. the Kia C'eed), where the burn is triggered at regular intervals. Others have 'passive regeneration' where it's up to the owner to make sure the car gets a good run at regular intervals (I spotted that advice in the manual for a VW Touran). A warning light comes on in the Skoda Superb when a burn is needed - which is usually after a couple of weeks of town driving. It takes up to 10 miles on the M-way according to a mate who has one.

My brother-in-law decided to buy a diesel this year because his fuel costs would be less. He does very little mileage and that's mainly in the city. He knew nothing about DPFs or 'regeneration' and the dealer told him nothing about it. Makes you wonder if a lot of people are being persuaded to buy diesels which may not be suitable for them.

EPM

BX 19 wrote: »

How are people feeling about theses low displacement, highly tuned petrol engined cars a la the 1.2TSI VW lump?

I can guarantee that these will be as costly to replace parts as the equivalent diesel.....

85-105 brake. Hardly highly tuned. I'd be more worried about the 1.4's running 150+

Mycroft H

Sorry EPM i ment the 1.4Tsi.... I was only up then :P

Nissan doctor

BX 19 wrote: »

Sorry EPM i ment the 1.4Tsi.... I was only up then :P

Considering the VAG 1.4 engines can be unreliable without forced induction and direct injection:eek: