Typical left right haymakers

sxt

If you would like to beat someone that is alot heavier than you,

and they are going to come at you with stereotypical typical left,/right swinging punches , trying to over power you with haymaker punches

Is there any one thing you can work on to counter act that predictable stereotypical left / right swinging punches ?

Barry.Oglesby

Learn how to box or how to clinch.

sxt

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Learn how to box or how to clinch.

I was hoping there was an easy answer lol , which would be better to take up, wrestling or boxing? I know that either would take years of commitment...

What about krav maga? Is there any pound for pound best discipline to learn? ( in the least amount of time)... i know that is bad but if the person is dedicated...

pablohoney87

Are you put in that situation often or something?
very specific.

boxer.fan

Like the man said learn to box or clinch.

It doesn't take years to outbox or outclinch the average hayemaker. A diligent student will pick it up in a matter of months.

Forget krav whatever you call it, that kinda stuff is for people who watch too much james bond.

RoboRat

Haymakers are probably the easiest punches to duck or defend, they are usually telegraphed and they are usually thrown by people who have no fight training whatsoever.

Personally I would go with Muai Thai for striking and Judo for throws/grappling but that's my personal opinion, I'm sure others would disagree.

Dyr

Don't like to beat up someone much heavier than you

Otherwise:

Read geoff thompsons stuff

Read this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Facing-Violence-Unexpected-Rory-Miller/dp/1594392137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315565269&sr=8-1

cowzerp

Muay Thai to clinch and stop the hayemakers or Boxing to avoid the haymakers and counter, i'm biased but would say boxing as a bigger opponent might beat you in the clinchh due to strenght, strenght is irrelevant if you don't get hit.

Hayemakers are a counter punchers dream

Khannie

cowzerp wrote: »

Hayemakers are a counter punchers dream

+1. I'd be delighted if some goon came at me with them. Hahahaha.

Plastikman_eire

Straight punches > haymakers

I'd tend to shy away from clinching up with someone subtantially stronger then you unless you are very good technically.

arybvtcw0eolkf

On the street - kick in the bollox, clinch - loaf in the face.

Sporting - most of the above, join a club and train martial arts (enjoy). Most people will never face haymakers on the street.

Plastikman_eire

Carmen Screeching Moth-eaten wrote: »

Most people will never face haymakers on the street.

Pretty much any fight ive ever seen on the street has been windmilling haymakers.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Pretty much any fight ive ever seen on the street has been windmilling haymakers.

What I should have said was that most people will never have to fight on the street.

badabing106

When i think of clinching, I think of MMA fighters hugging someone up high. I know these guys are martial arts at several sports. Which art perfects the clinch?

Niall Keane

Rules dictate!! Clinch in MT and you can knee away to your hearts content, clinch in Sanshou and you have 3-5 seconds to apply a throw (remain standing is worth more) clinch in MMA and you can use a sacrifice throw to bring him to ground.
On "da streetz" well if you are versed in any it will work well. That's why there are precautions in competition such as "mismatch" where the ref has the right to stop a fight where skill levels are so different one guy has the potential of getting seriously injured or killed. Now take the "streetz" the average gob****e or even a few of them hasn't a chance against someone with a bit of ring, lei tai, or cage experience........

badabing106

Niall Keane wrote: »

Rules dictate!! Clinch in MT and you can knee away to your hearts content, clinch in Sanshou and you have 3-5 seconds to apply a throw (remain standing is worth more) clinch in MMA and you can use a sacrifice throw to bring him to ground.
On "da streetz" well if you are versed in any it will work well. That's why there are precautions in competition such as "mismatch" where the ref has the right to stop a fight where skill levels are so different one guy has the potential of getting seriously injured or killed. Now take the "streetz" the average gob****e or even a few of them hasn't a chance against someone with a bit of ring, lei tai, or cage experience........

I Apreciate the response, personally my legs are weak so kicking arts are a no no seriously ,There is no such thing as MMA, what is the most rounded marital art thats whants the best of upperbody/everything?? Basciallyy legs are a disadvantage. I know boxing? but am more intersting in overall body workout .Is there such a thing as roman grekan wrestling in Dublin?

cowzerp

badabing106 wrote: »

I Apreciate the response, personally my legs are weak so kicking arts are a no no ,There is no such thing as MMA, what is the most rounded marital art thats whants the best of everything??

I'd disagree, Mma is it's own art now
1 that can evolve and is not stuck in tradition-whatever works will be used.

badabing106

cowzerp wrote: »

I'd disagree, Mma is it's own art now
1 that can evolve and is not stuck in tradition-whatever works will be used.

Where are they teaching in dublin? which arts?

Niall Keane

"whants the best of upperbody/everything??"

I refered to 3 considered by many to be sport orientated arts/ formats.

MT in it's complete system has throws and sweeps and double swords afaik.
Sanshou is a competition format, the art I practice Tai Chi Chuan has all ranges and three weapons sabre sword and spear.
MMA gyms do exist where all ranges are trained at once and not just MT one night, wrestling another and BJJ another, leaving it to the student to put together.

However, MT is effective with the tools of the ring alone in self defence. Most Tai Chi is hollow, and not taught martially. Some may argue that MMA needs separate training for the arts it uses to master them?

But in reality it always comes down to three factors regardless of the art - having a good teacher who has experience, having good dedicated training partners, and most importantly the student themselves, willing to "eat bitter" as the Chinese put it, to gain the skills.

Tradition v modern is simply marketing. The real deal is always similar in the hardship of the training.

You mention boxing, well think about it, there are a lot more commercially orientated boxercise classes out there than old Irish bastards training and producing Tysons!

cowzerp

badabing106 wrote: »

Where are they teaching in dublin? which arts?

I don't understand that question but it's taught all over Dublin-i assume you need to have strict sylabus to be considered a martial art for you.

Its a Flexible Martial art not Rigid like many other arts.

Plastikman_eire

Niall Keane wrote: »

Now take the "streetz" the average gob****e or even a few of them hasn't a chance against someone with a bit of ring, lei tai, or cage experience........

:eek:

That's the kind of attitude that gets MA students badly hurt. NO art besides leg-it fu is effective against multiple opponents.

For competition the most effect arts for clinch fighting are Greco, Judo and Muay Thai.

Plastikman_eire

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

NO art besides leg-it fu is effective against multiple opponents.

That's exactly what I preach to the kids that ask me
"Will I be able to defend myself against a group of people"
Better off getting lessons from Usain Bolt.

I blame the movie industry.

Niall Keane

"That's the kind of attitude that gets MA students badly hurt. NO art besides leg-it fu is effective against multiple opponents."

Hasnt been my experience! Nor my students, though the tactics and strategies must be trained under pressure, how many actually do this on a regular basis? There are those who can break rocks but never spar and so fighting a single opponent is throwing a coin in the air, maybe they will, maybe they won't get a chance? Accidently timing, angle and range will suit them to launch their training technique. Likewise there are those who pocess the ability to take on a single skilled opponent, and likewise environment (may restrict number able to attack at once) and luck (maybe the ducks will line up in a row) may mean things work out well. However believe it or not, some martial arts are designed to even up the odds of success through skill, not simply take roids do weights and bully a weaker opponent. In fact I would tend to believe many are designed to do this, but often it is a skill lost or not trained enough.
And it's then easy enough for martial artists to be like the commitments - form a circle and pat each other on the back, consoling each others lack of knowledge, excusing what they cannot do as impossible.
No one knows everything, and just because an area of skill lies outside of ones trained ability, does not "prove" it doesn't exist.

Gorey_R

Niall Keane wrote: »

"That's the kind of attitude that gets MA students badly hurt. NO art besides leg-it fu is effective against multiple opponents."

Hasnt been my experience! Nor my students, though the tactics and strategies must be trained under pressure, how many actually do this on a regular basis? There are those who can break rocks but never spar and so fighting a single opponent is throwing a coin in the air, maybe they will, maybe they won't get a chance? Accidently timing, angle and range will suit them to launch their training technique. Likewise there are those who pocess the ability to take on a single skilled opponent, and likewise environment (may restrict number able to attack at once) and luck (maybe the ducks will line up in a row) may mean things work out well. However believe it or not, some martial arts are designed to even up the odds of success through skill, not simply take roids do weights and bully a weaker opponent. In fact I would tend to believe many are designed to do this, but often it is a skill lost or not trained enough.
And it's then easy enough for martial artists to be like the commitments - form a circle and pat each other on the back, consoling each others lack of knowledge, excusing what they cannot do as impossible.
No one knows everything, and just because an area of skill lies outside of ones trained ability, does not "prove" it doesn't exist.

What are you raving on about at all?

Plastikman_eire

Niall Keane wrote: »

Hasnt been my experience! Nor my students, though the tactics and strategies must be trained under pressure, how many actually do this on a regular basis? There are those who can break rocks but never spar and so fighting a single opponent is throwing a coin in the air, maybe they will, maybe they won't get a chance? Accidently timing, angle and range will suit them to launch their training technique. Likewise there are those who pocess the ability to take on a single skilled opponent, and likewise environment (may restrict number able to attack at once) and luck (maybe the ducks will line up in a row) may mean things work out well. However believe it or not, some martial arts are designed to even up the odds of success through skill, not simply take roids do weights and bully a weaker opponent. In fact I would tend to believe many are designed to do this, but often it is a skill lost or not trained enough.
And it's then easy enough for martial artists to be like the commitments - form a circle and pat each other on the back, consoling each others lack of knowledge, excusing what they cannot do as impossible.
No one knows everything, and just because an area of skill lies outside of ones trained ability, does not "prove" it doesn't exist.

That is dojo fantasy stuff. Realistically unless you manage to win the combat lottery and single shot KO every attacker in a group, no martial art training is going to work. Grappling arts while excellent against a single opponent take to much time to execute to be effective against multiple opponents. Striking, is going to be as much luck as skill.

End of the day, any technique you can employ that is effective in stopping a single attacker, allows enough time for other assailents to stop YOU.

Niall Keane

"End of the day, any technique you can employ that is effective in stopping a single attacker, allows enough time for other assailents to stop YOU."

Only if you launch from static, if your move and attack and the movement works to power the attack and gain better position you will find the truth other than you suggest. Of course beating up a hanging bag won't bring about this skill! And sadly for many simply hitting hard And learning combos seems to be the objective, a case of "look how hard I'm trying" , most martial artists I have encountered seem to put all their effort into the finish, missing "all the heavenly glory" on the way!!!

Sid_Justice

nearly six years niall and you don't know how the quote function works on boards.ie?

there is a button in the top bar that looks like a speech bubble, click that and put the sentence your quoting in it or wrap it in quote tags

Barry SeanScoil

For more advise on fighting multiple attckers see "NEVER BACK DOWN 2" so much to be learned...

empacher

this is going to be a very interesting thread full.

Niall Keane

"nearly six years niall and you don't know how the quote function works on boards.ie?

there is a button in the top bar that looks like a speech bubble, click that and put the sentence your quoting in it or wrap it in quote tags"

Well Sid, I'm using the iPhone and boards has a mobile version of the site ..... But no quote button!!! Just a "clear text" and "post reply"!

Niall Keane

"For more advise on fighting multiple attckers see "NEVER BACK DOWN 2" so much to be learned..."

In psychology ridicule is seen as a group protective and corrective behaviour, you want to belong to the group and anyone you disents is ridiculed as punishment. It's basically the lowest form of "the tyranny of the weak".

Sorry but I don't need to subscribe to the "I'm ok, you're ok" mental game. I'm just telling it as it is. The system I studied placed emphasis on multiple attackers from early stages. I have walked the walk in full contact sport fighting, so I'm no fantasist! I know that fighting a well trained opponent is a difficult job, and I have constantly promoted that kind of training to get good. But it is simply blinkered to assume that because fighting one person is difficult, to fight many is impossible, it's different, more demanding requiring a trained awareness, but really just another skill like any other.

As for "run away" advice I so often see posted??????? First one should instantly assess, just like in the ring, you don't take your eyes off your opponent, you measure him and ASSESS your options.

I just feel it's too comfortable for people to join the clique and say "run away"
I certainly did and I believe many do take up martial arts to be able to deal with physical confrontations. So what are people doing? You train so you can fight and feel confident about it, not to play some inner pseudo-psychology "I was afraid, I trained, now I'm trained I don't fight, but not because I can't, but because I choose not to". Thats not dealing with the issue! Either you are not training for fighting (maybe you have different aims, katas etc? ) or youre in the wrong class!

cowzerp

I've been attacked by 5-6 people on 2 occasions in my younger days-1 in a minibus (confined space) and 1 outdoors lots of space

On both occasions the only strike I was hit was initial 1, after that I just hit and moved fast and hit to hurt, only strike that was not pure boxing was 1 where I was bear hugged and others where about to start laying in and I kneed the lad in the head, on both occasions I came out on top, go me!

It's worth noting I was about 60kg and very fast and composed and for my weight I can pack a punch.

Point been it's not impossible to fight and beat a gang-now with that said, most people can't fight and lack guts, when there hit they fold up

This works both ways so fighting back with a gang will most likely end with you on the ground getting stomped so if you can avoid it do, systems that claim to teach you to fight gangs are Walter Mitty types in my opinion and best taken with a pinch of salt

Gangs attacking tend to attack 1st a time all hoping the man in front does the job 1st till the victim is on the ground, this is when the gang attack in unison

My advise, stay composed and hit hard and don't grapple in any way if possible-if it's not working out pick up your ego and leggit

arybvtcw0eolkf

Gorey_R wrote: »

What are you raving on about at all?

Give it over ffs.

Lads some of you may not like Niall's posting style, but he's a regular contributor to this forum, and has never shown anyone the disrespect he's regularly shown here.

I'm getting tired of it, leave it out.

If anyone has a problem with this, PM me because I'm not getting into it here.

Carry on.

Niall Keane

"Point been it's not impossible to fight and beat a gang-now with that said, most people can't fight and lack guts, when there hit they fold up"

I agree totally, most Kung Fu styles for example have some form of "gung" training to toughen up the body, but it takes a lot of personal practice, not many have this now.

I don't accept that systems that have an element to them that deal with tactics and strategies to face multiple opponents are "Walter mitties" my own system trains techniques "round Robbin" style and the object is for one person to counter attacks from all others, resistance is built up over the session, but the object is to finish a technique by downing an opponent and moving back into guard to a position that hinders the other opponents from coming at you at once. Personally I have found this to work, on one occasion I had 3 individuals confront me on Camden street, the whole encounter lasted maybe 15 seconds? During the initial stages I was rushed by one lad who tried to close me down, and grab hold of me, I used his grip and my own body as a counter weight and swung him between me and his mate, I then punched him in the ear smashing his head into his friends face, both went down. I dealt with the 3rd, who started to hesitate, with a side kick to the abdomen, it sent him half over the bonnet of a parked car. I then shouted "lads it's Saturday night, I don't know about you, but I'd prefer not to spend it in a police station. Aren't we all out to have a good time?"
They backed away, cursed me, and that was the end of it.
The technique wasn't accidental it was deliberate and trained. This is not the only time such has happened. Recently one of my students was attacked by 5 lads in temple bar, he ended up with a black eye, but dropped all of them... End result his mates who stepped back and let him deal with it now train with me too.
That's been my experience, and that's all there is to it. No big deal really, anytime something has landed from a drunken fool an his friends it has never been anything as powerful as receiving a blow from the world class Sanshou fighters I have gone against. Sometimes you wish the assholes could take more of a beating!

Sid_Justice

Niall Keane wrote: »

"nearly six years niall and you don't know how the quote function works on boards.ie?

there is a button in the top bar that looks like a speech bubble, click that and put the sentence your quoting in it or wrap it in quote tags"

Well Sid, I'm using the iPhone and boards has a mobile version of the site ..... But no quote button!!! Just a "clear text" and "post reply"!

sorry niall

raglinroad

One thing we did for fighting multiple people was to put the person being attacked in the far corner. Put out 2 or 3 fighters and the person being attacked had to get to the door.

It was interesting to do it. You might be able to fight off 2 people. Even 3 if you get lucky. But any more than that you should go into hedgehog mode and wait for help to arrive lol.

There was one evening on my way home from training I saw a group of about 8 or 9 lads chasing 1 guy and hop on him. I pulled up in the car with a big handbraker smoke squealing out of the tires. Hopped out of the car and lamped one or two of the guys. Then they all scarpered . Well in fairness some had legged it when they saw the car. Probably thought I was a cop or something.

Ah well at least I was able to help.



As for the haymaker thing. There's a lot of martial arts would deal with this type of scenario. Learning any Martial Art is a huge benefit. Most can become quite good at sparring in 1 or 2 years. Some even in a shorter amount of time. Depends on the person really. Some never become good at it.

I knew a guy from Holland and he knew all his Weapons, Katas, Sets, Self-Defence to absolute precision and he was deadly. Put a pair of mits on him for some sparring and he couldn't do anything. It was bizarre.

But everyone is different.

pearsquasher

I was fortunate during the summer to be able to train with a Bujinkan guy at a seminar who happened to be an orthopedic surgeon in Edinburgh who was often on the Friday/Saturday A&E shift.

I remember hearing before that often in A&E you'd get folks with damaged hands for throwing inefficient punches at people. I asked him about this and he went into amazingly technical detail about the kind of injuries he sees to the hand from brawls - specific types of bone fractures, wrist damage, etc. He described haymakers as one of the leading causes. It might work in boxing where your fist is padded and wrists are strapped, but unprotected against the human skull its a bit dumb. He also verified how the other end of things, people with concussion from "successful" punches, showed the kind of damage consistant with strikes that, lets just say, were not haymakers.

BUT people DO throw them, a lot, so they should be trained against, we both agreed.

Along with all this I think its important to point out that if you DO strike soemone for real with great timimg, angling technique etc you may just get more than you bargained for as they hit the the path/wall. Martial Arts is about taking THAT into account as well as everything else. (Martial sports aren't)

cowzerp

raglinroad wrote: »

I knew a guy from Holland and he knew all his Weapons, Katas, Sets, Self-Defence to absolute precision and he was deadly. Put a pair of mits on him for some sparring and he couldn't do anything. It was bizarre.

So he knew his weapons in controlled enviroment but not when it was a real situation, nothing bizzare there-he simply knew stuff that did not work under pressure when you dont know what is coming.

Dyr

cowzerp wrote: »

So he knew his weapons in controlled enviroment but not when it was a real situation, nothing bizzare there-he simply knew stuff that did not work under pressure when you dont know what is coming.

When did sparring become a real situation? I've never seen anyone spar outside a martial arts club?

cowzerp

Bambi wrote: »

When did sparring become a real situation? I've never seen anyone spar outside a martial arts club?

Well if i'm trying to punch kick you etc and you cant defend against it why will you be able to when gloves come off?!

Don't be ridiculis

raglinroad

cowzerp wrote: »

So he knew his weapons in controlled enviroment but not when it was a real situation, nothing bizzare there-he simply knew stuff that did not work under pressure when you dont know what is coming.

Yeh when he knew what was coming he was lethal. But literally froze under pressure.

I found it bizarre because I've never seen that before. And haven't since.

Dyr

cowzerp wrote: »

Well if i'm trying to punch kick you etc and you cant defend against it why will you be able to when gloves come off?!

Don't be ridiculis

Not what I asked, I asked when sparring had become "real"

I've trained with a guy who was really good at standing arm locks ( did a lot of aikido) but never pulled them off in sparring, I saw him nail a guy with a standing arm lock twice in the real world no problem, worked like a dream. According to you if he couldn't do it in sparring then he can't do it. My experience is otherwise.

Was only ever thrown a punch at once, outside the Gleanroyal in Maynooth, was a haymaker thankfully, saw it coming and blocked it without thinking (had done kickboxing for a year or so a few years previous to that), told the lad he'd want to throw the next one a lot quicker, despite having his buddy with him he didn't bother. In fairness I had about two stone on him so he probably reckoned f that for a game. I was a tad dissapointed with myself that I didn't drop him at the time but I didn't feel overly threatened and I was in the company of a lady too.

A few years after that I did a Krav Maga course over a weekend, unfair to compare them but for the OP I'd advice a year of training at kickboxing would be beneficial to what you want to do.

As others have said though it's unlikely you'll ever need to defend yourself.

Still the training is good fun, I often regret not keeping it up but I moved to Dublin after college and was on shift work, was down to Cork whenever I was off as Mum wasn't well, put on some weight, got lazy .. :pac: Maybe will take it up again some time.

cowzerp

Bambi wrote: »

Not what I asked, I asked when sparring had become "real"

I've trained with a guy who was really good at standing arm locks ( did a lot of aikido) but never pulled them off in sparring, I saw him nail a guy with a standing arm lock twice in the real world no problem, worked like a dream. According to you if he couldn't do it in sparring then he can't do it. My experience is otherwise.

Well it's not fake so must be real!

I don't know how you spar but we punch, kick, knee and grapple and use far more facets of a fight than you ever see used on the street, so you can call it not real if you like but I think your just been pedantic

boxer.fan

The answer to this is simple lads. This is what my instructor told me to do against a gang of bullies when I was a kid. :D :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plfsp9lS_m8

Doug Cartel

raglinroad wrote: »

Yeh when he knew what was coming he was lethal. But literally froze under pressure.

I found it bizarre because I've never seen that before. And haven't since.

Seriously? This is extremely common in martial arts.

Doug Cartel

Bambi wrote: »

I've trained with a guy who was really good at standing arm locks ( did a lot of aikido) but never pulled them off in sparring, I saw him nail a guy with a standing arm lock twice in the real world no problem, worked like a dream.

Sounds unusual to say the least.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bambi wrote: »

I've trained with a guy who was really good at standing arm locks ( did a lot of aikido) but never pulled them off in sparring, I saw him nail a guy with a standing arm lock twice in the real world no problem, worked like a dream.

Not unusual at all.

I know all the Judo syllabus but about 90% of it wouldn't work in the club or competition against trained opponents - against untrained opponents I look the dogs bollox :cool:

Btw I worked with a Canadian Aikidoka whose joint locks were brilliant on the door too.

pearsquasher

I saw him nail a guy with a standing arm lock twice in the real world no problem, worked like a dream.

I can think of lots of real-world scenarios where this might happen so find it unsuprising.

Scenarios that don't involve "dueling" with somebody.

For example a security person needs to restrain somebody who has just attacked or is about to attack, somebody else.
.. or when you're suddenly lunged at out of the blue. (I know mental/physical health professionals who get this from time to time). There's no warning, no build-up, no ref, no tap-outs......just reaction and the ability to NOT knock the person out cold.

When you try your techniques out in a situation like that - ie protection and prevention, they take on a different aspect.

Doug Cartel

Carmen Screeching Moth-eaten wrote: »

I know all the Judo syllabus but about 90% of it wouldn't work in the club or competition against trained opponents - against untrained opponents I look the dogs bollox :cool:

The thing is, I know which of the throws work for me and which I have a reasonable chance of pulling off against a resisting opponent. Why would I go using one of the ones that don't work for me?

Doug Cartel

pearsquasher wrote: »

I can think of lots of real-world scenarios where this might happen so find it unsuprising.

Scenarios that don't involve "dueling" with somebody.

For example a security person needs to restrain somebody who has just attacked or is about to attack, somebody else.

Yes I would agree this case where you need to apply a lock to someone who has already been subdued or isn't really fighting you gives you a much wider margin for error, allowing you to apply something you might not be able to do against a fully resisting opponent.

.. or when you're suddenly lunged at out of the blue. (I know mental/physical health professionals who get this from time to time). There's no warning, no build-up, no ref, no tap-outs......just reaction and the ability to NOT knock the person out cold.

This case however, would take a bit more convincing before I would accept it. If you have a technique that doesn't work for you in a "duelling" situation, why would you expect it to suddenly start working for you when you get sucker-punched?