P&D Taper too heavy on miles??

altercor

Folks,

Im less than a week away from starting my 3 week taper in P&D's 18/70 program. I dont know how I did it but I managed to get through it injury free this time. God bless core work and running a bit more smart.

Anyways, Im looking ahead to next week and for a taper week it seems quite heavy. I know you must keep a reasonable amount of mileage but the last week calls for me to do:

Monday: Rest/XT
Tuesday: 5miles a.m & 4miles p.m
Wednesday: 7miles with 2 @MP
Thurs: Recovery 5miles
Friday: 5miles with 6*100 strides
Saturday: Recovery 4 mile
Sunday: MARATHON

Does this seem a bit much?

The hypochondria has set in already.. Tapering really messes my head up!!:(

Has anyone any experience of this program's taper? What are your thoughts?

tunguska

altercor wrote: »

Monday: Rest/XT
Tuesday: 5miles a.m & 4miles p.m
Wednesday: 7miles with 2 @MP
Thurs: Recovery 5miles
Friday: 5miles with 6*100 strides
Saturday: Recovery 4 mile
Sunday: MARATHON

Does this seem a bit much?

The hypochondria has set in already.. Tapering really messes my head up!!:(

Has anyone any experience of this program's taper? What are your thoughts?

I always thought the P&D taper was a good one, well balanced. You should take a look at the Daniels taper, then you'd appreciate how light the P&D taper really is.

altercor

Cool.. Ya, obviously after getting through the program I have no problem with the mileage that's scheduled but Im determined to get to start line fresh and fit.

pistol_75

Was running with someone last Sunday who is starting taper for Berlin this week as well. He mentioned that too many people take taper as a chance to do nothing and rest up whereas the only thing that should reduce is the distances but the intensity of your workouts need to be the same as before.

altercor

pistol_75 wrote: »

Was running with someone last Sunday who is starting taper for Berlin this week as well. He mentioned that too many people take taper as a chance to do nothing and rest up whereas the only thing that should reduce is the distances but the intensity of your workouts need to be the same as before.

That's interesting. Thanks for the comment. I guess you have to remain sharp and race ready without as much volume as during peak weeks. It'd be a shame to get soft after all those hard miles. I have a problem with reigning in intensity most days in training anyways if I'm running on my own so hopefully this won't be a problem! Did the 11miles with 6*1200 last night and I can say in 3 years of running marathons I've never done a harder session (intensity wise). I was completely out on my feet!:eek:

TFBubendorfer

I used to do P&D and I always cut the last 2 days short, 2 or 3 miles instead of 4 and 5, otherwise I stuck to the program.

Krusty_Clown

I always found the last couple of weeks tough, but with an emphasis on quality rather than quantity. I never arrived at the start line feeling fresh and full of beans, but I never missed my goal by more than 15 seconds either.

That last week is a pretty easy week (relatively speaking, depending on your typical weekly mileage). The 2 miles at pmp should feel really easy, by the time the final week comes around (with the reduced mileage). The really tough part for me has always been the 3x1600m @5k pace the week before the marathon, arriving a couple of days after an 8k-10k tune-up race. That one always struck me as tough. Best of luck with the last couple of weeks. You can always back off on the mileage if you're feeling niggles/over-tired.

anymore

altercor wrote: »

Folks,

Im less than a week away from starting my 3 week taper in P&D's 18/70 program. I dont know how I did it but I managed to get through it injury free this time. God bless core work and running a bit more smart.

Anyways, Im looking ahead to next week and for a taper week it seems quite heavy. I know you must keep a reasonable amount of mileage but the last week calls for me to do:

Monday: Rest/XT
Tuesday: 5miles a.m & 4miles p.m
Wednesday: 7miles with 2 @MP
Thurs: Recovery 5miles
Friday: 5miles with 6*100 strides
Saturday: Recovery 4 mile
Sunday: MARATHON

Does this seem a bit much?

The hypochondria has set in already.. Tapering really messes my head up!!:(

Has anyone any experience of this program's taper? What are your thoughts?

Seems a bit heavy to me.Mind I am normally going into taper week with some kind of injury anyway. Have a look at Hal Higdon schedules on the web and see what you think.

Marthastew

As a relatively inexperienced runner I'm not qualified to give advice; hope you don't mind if I jump in and ask a taper related question? Lots of sound advice to be had here and it may stop my mind from over thinking everything I do during these last few weeks before Berlin (taper paranoia setting in...)

How beneficial is cross training as a substitute for the harder sessions such as VO2 max and speedwork? Over the past two weeks These sessions seem to aggravate my shin splints and I don't want to overdo it. I have been following a similiar P&D plan fairly strictly and I'm (ambitiously) hoping for 3.3X.xx in Berlin, my PB is DCM last year, 3.41. My LSRs; 20miles, 3times. 17 miles, 4 times and 18miles, 2 times run at approx 9min miles. Three of those LSRs contained a portion at PMP, 8 min miles. I may have been over ambitious as my shin splints are now flaring up. I'm doing plenty of stretching, icing etc but my main question is (sorry it has taken me so long to get here...)Will I benefit from cross training (spinning class, pilates, body sculpt) as a substitute for those sessions or should I just take it easy instead?.

I don't feel the classes take too much out of me but if they're not going to impact greatly on my fitness at this stage should I bother?

All advice greatly appreciated

Krusty_Clown

I don't think that cross-training is a suitable substitute for sessions. You just can't get a sustained heart rate up to to the right level. Having said that, if you don't make it to the start line because of a ruptured achiles.... Well, you won't record a good time. Better to be under-trained, then over-trained..

Could you try doing the sessions on softer surfaces, like grass/trail/track?

altercor

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I don't think that cross-training is a suitable substitute for sessions. You just can't get a sustained heart rate up to to the right level. Having said that, if you don't make it to the start line because of a ruptured achiles.... Well, you won't record a good time. Better to be under-trained, then over-trained..

Could you try doing the sessions on softer surfaces, like grass/trail/track?

I agree with Krusty.

Having suffered shin splints for about 3 years when I started running (and still get them now and again after sessions on track or even on grass) it can be a scourge. I managed to get from 4:20hrs to 3:18 without any speed work though. I really focused on upping mileage and finding the max I could do in a week, which used to be a paltry 45~. I could be wrong but if you are looking for something in the league of 3:3x:xx speed work shouldnt be a major part of your trianing if it is going to risk your participation in the first place. I think the long run should be your focus and getting strong up around 20 miles. Since I got over the worst of my shin splints I got up to 75-80mpw with 2 sessions a week (but I still ice every night to be safe!!)

Hope this helps!

Hope this helps!

Marthastew

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Could you try doing the sessions on softer surfaces, like grass/trail/track?

I definitely will do that, have been doing nearly all of my training on footpaths, will give it a shot and see if that helps

Marthastew

altercor wrote: »

I agree with Krusty.

Having suffered shin splints for about 3 years when I started running (and still get them now and again after sessions on track or even on grass) it can be a scourge. I managed to get from 4:20hrs to 3:18 without any speed work though. I really focused on upping mileage and finding the max I could do in a week, which used to be a paltry 45~. I could be wrong but if you are looking for something in the league of 3:3x:xx speed work shouldnt be a major part of your trianing if it is going to risk your participation in the first place. I think the long run should be your focus and getting strong up around 20 miles. Since I got over the worst of my shin splints I got up to 75-80mpw with 2 sessions a week (but I still ice every night to be safe!!)

Hope this helps!

Hope this helps!

It does help.... I've been running for three and a half years so after reading your post I'm hoping my shin splints will (miraculously) ease off:)

The one part of my training that has gone really well is the LSRs so I'm hoping that will make a difference to my time.

not long to go now....

Good luck with the rest of your taper

altercor

It will make a difference! I think you need to be aboe to finish a marathon comfortably (relatively) before you can start think about speed. You need to be strong up around 20-22 miles. For me that's the dark point of the race. If you can get strong there, adrenaline and the sniff of the finish line will helop with the last 4.2 ish miles.

Also, footpaths??!!! Terrible!! First of all, they're concrete! Second of all, they undulate up and down and up and down (i get sea sick on them!!).. there's a lot to be said for doing hard sessions on mucky, irish, autumnal grass! Gets the legs nice and strong (that's why the track junkies do cross country in the winter!). I find it makes the session that bit tougher too. If you're in Dublin, Phoenix park is great. If in Cork, The Farm at curraheen has fields that seem to be mapped perfectly for 1ks and 800s! I only know about Cork and Dublin, Im afraid!

Good luck and stay off them damn footpaths! Im telling you, you'll notice a big increase in ability to handle mileage if you're surface smart!:D

Marthastew

I've a bag of frozen peas on my shin as I type... Proof that I need to be more savvy about the surfaces I run on. I'm on the wrong side of Dublin for Phoenix park but plenty of parks nearby for me to try tempo/speed work in.

Thanks for all the great advice

Krusty_Clown

Marthastew wrote: »

I've a bag of frozen peas on my shin as I type... Proof that I need to be more savvy about the surfaces I run on. I'm on the wrong side of Dublin for Phoenix park but plenty of parks nearby for me to try tempo/speed work in.

Where are you based? Maybe we can suggest some alternative locations/surfaces?

Marthastew

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Where are you based? Maybe we can suggest some alternative locations/surfaces?

Dun Laoghaire/glenageary;
there's a running track in Kilbogget Park that I could try out, I've coached kids on it for community games. However I do most of my running in the mornings while my kids are at school and I'd be a little concerned about the safety aspect given that the track is way at the back of the park. Maybe I'm just overly cautious?
Any other suggestions?
Thanks

Krusty_Clown

Marthastew wrote: »

Dun Laoghaire/glenageary;
there's a running track in Kilbogget Park that I could try out, I've coached kids on it for community games. However I do most of my running in the mornings while my kids are at school and I'd be a little concerned about the safety aspect given that the track is way at the back of the park. Maybe I'm just overly cautious?

I'm not too far away, and do most of my running in the area (based in Shankill). I find the paths around Dun Laoghaire are very unforgiving.

Kilbogget is absolutely fine by day, but if I were a female running on my own (or at times a male!) I would avoid it from dusk onwards. The track is cinder, which is definitely better than running on concrete paths, but wouldn't be as good as grass or a proper track. Some other suggestions: UCD Track, Cabinteely Park (grass), Shanganagh Park (grass or tarmac). There are also some good trails up around Rathmichael/Carrigologan, though the area is very isolated. Bray to Greystones is a lovely trail run too, via either the cliffs or Bray Head.

Marthastew

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm not too far away, and do most of my running in the area (based in Shankill). I find the paths around Dun Laoghaire are very unforgiving.

Kilbogget is absolutely fine by day, but if I were a female running on my own (or at times a male!) I would avoid it from dusk onwards. The track is cinder, which is definitely better than running on concrete paths, but wouldn't be as good as grass or a proper track. Some other suggestions: UCD Track, Cabinteely Park (grass), Shanganagh Park (grass or tarmac). There are also some good trails up around Rathmichael/Carrigologan, though the area is very isolated. Bray to Greystones is a lovely trail run too, via either the cliffs or Bray Head.

Thanks so much for those suggestions and yes those Dun L footpaths are tough going!
I'm assuming the piers are definitely NOT suitable for running on...

Altercor; thanks also for the advice and apologies for taking this thread so completely off topic:o

Krusty_Clown

Marthastew wrote: »

I'm assuming the piers are definitely NOT suitable for running on...

They're perfect. For a nice stroll.
If you've got to run the pier, then the West pier is better (unless they've paved it since I was there last).

altercor

Marthastew wrote: »

Altercor; thanks also for the advice and apologies for taking this thread so completely off topic:o

No problemo!

My taper has started as of today. I did my last 20 miler yesterday and it was not easy at all. Running in to gale force winds, which wasnt nice! Still managed to keep it at 3:10 pace on grass so, aside from the major wind battering, Im in decent shape if I can find some energy from somewhere in the next 3 weeks and haul my ass under 3 hours...:eek::eek:

Grass is your friend in the winter!! Makes you strong if you combine it with some hill reps too! Start easy witht ehm and they can act as a good substitute for strength work!

altercor

Of course I didnt allow for getting the bloody flu the week before the race!!

Marthastew

altercor wrote: »

Of course I didnt allow for getting the bloody flu the week before the race!!

Where/when are you racing? How bad is the flu?
I have found Sona Cold & Flu tablets really good at shifting a cold, depending on how bad it is. Lots and lots of extra Vitamin C and lots of sleep.
Fingers crossed for you. it's amazing how much better you might feel after a few days rest.

inmyday

altercor wrote: »

Friday: 5miles with 6*100 strides
Saturday: Recovery 4 mile
Sunday: MARATHON


. Tapering really messes my head up!!:(
?

Im the same as you. It messes my head up too...
I cannot understand at all, why an amateur would be doing 6*100 strides in a 5mile two days before a marathon.
I always thought it was about being 100% for marathon day. The hard training is done over the last few months??

Would a 3or 4 mile pmp not be better??? And instead of the recovery 4 mile the day before, total rest, maybe a lie in, 'cause if youre like me, cannot really sleep night before the marathon??

Maybe the P&D is mainly for people who are running the marathon. Because there was no way i was following this type of taper!

menoscemo

inmyday wrote: »

Im the same as you. It messes my head up too...
I cannot understand at all, why an amateur would be doing 6*100 strides in a 5mile two days before a marathon.
I always thought it was about being 100% for marathon day. The hard training is done over the last few months??

Would a 3or 4 mile pmp not be better??? And instead of the recovery 4 mile the day before, total rest, maybe a lie in, 'cause if youre like me, cannot really sleep night before the marathon??

Maybe the P&D is mainly for people who are running the marathon. Because there was no way i was following this type of taper!

6 x 100m strides is a hell of a lot easier than 3 or 4 miles @ PMP. Sounds like you are doing strides wrong, it's just a short burst of speed, but only 5k pace. It shouldn't be taxing at all.

inmyday

menoscemo wrote: »

6 x 100m strides is a hell of a lot easier than 3 or 4 miles @ PMP. Sounds like you are doing strides wrong, it's just a short burst of speed, but only 5k pace. It shouldn't be taxing at all.

O do you think? My self, pmp would be 7.30-8 minute mile. while a 5km would be 19.30. So 4 mile pmp wouldnt take much out of me, comfortable enough.

Youre right though, I am doing them wrong, too fast, but in my head I cant figure out why do strides a couple of days before.

What benefit would this be? I have read the book, but it was a loan btw(incase you were just gonna tell me to read up).

RayCun

In the taper period you aren't increasing your fitness - there isn't time for that kind of adaption. So a few PMP miles isn't going to have any positive effect. But strides can wake your legs up, get them moving freely, and maybe if your running form has been deteriorating with the endless slog of miles, some strides will help fix that.

ecoli

As a coach the day before a race I always have an athlete run a few miles recovery (and I mean recovery not their usual easy pace) followed by a few strides. The recovery runs flush out the toxins from your legs and all the crap built up from the accumulation of your running

For me recovery pace would be somewhere between 1 min - 90 secs slower per mile than the pace of your easy day runs

Some athletes do like and benefit from a day of in the build up to the race and for these athletes I would have it 2 days before a race followed by the recovery run in the day preceding the race

So for example:
2 days to race - REST
1 Day - 4 miles rec + 4x100 strides
0 Days - RACE DAY

As Raycun said strides can help an athletes legs wake up as it increases the blood flow to the legs for not just the duration of the strides but for some hours after which can have an impact on recovery

Strides themselves are useful for the following and I would encourage them all year round for athletes of all levels

• Improved leg speed - to run fast, you gotta run fast
• Improved flexibility and coordination - faster running puts your legs through a more complete range of motion; quicker leg turnover forces you to coordinate your movements to prevent tripping or stumbling
• Improved running economy - training your muscles to run fast and relaxed over a short distance should translate into faster, relaxed running at longer distances.