here is a possible solution for Ireland's money problems?

Frank100

We are currently busy setting up a Community exchange system across Ireland where people can exchange goods and services for credits.

This means that you do not have to be employed to buy goods or services.
Money is virtual credits, to get virtual credits you can sell things or you can offer your skills. This can be from fixing a car to walking someone's dog.
There also is no real debt, your balance can go into the negative (though there is a limit)

All that is needed are for people to actively join, lists their skills, goods and fill in their requirements or wants.

Have a look at this website: http://www.grendill.com/ces

Feel free to join (for free), it is like on-line shopping with no cash involved.

ei.sdraob

Wait until Revenue hear about it, having people conducting transactions without them taking a cut

Delancey

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Wait until Revenue hear about it, having people conducting transactions without them taking a cut

Kinda says it all .

Such schemes sprang up in parts of England 15 or 20 years ago where people operated in their own ' currency ' ( stupid names like Ducats , Treems , etc ).
The detail escapes me but I do know that these schemes ultimately ran foul of HM Inland Revenue.
At the end of the day it is doing business in a way that deprives the taxman of his 'cut'.

RichardAnd

Local currencies do not bode well with the powers that be. Here's an article that might be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%B6rgl

It's a good idea OP, one way or another.

Frank100

Ok, lets take worst case scenario, revenue start taxing the system.
So what? We still have a better opportunity to make use of our skills and work.
We the people are also in control of setting prices.

For example: I can work as a plumber, a dog walker and a DIY guy and I determine what people pay me.


Perhaps if the government start taxing us we will pay them back in credits.

We can criticize everything in life, but unless we try something all criticism is merely assumptions.

RichardAnd

Frank100 wrote: »

We can criticize everything in life, but unless we try something all criticism is merely assumptions.

Pretty much my take. I think I'll sign up to this thing, no harm in that

iMax

Systems like this work fantastically well in the USA (for example), where people have honour. The honour system (e.g. pay it forward etc), work very well over there.

Irish people for the most part are dishonourable. Constantly trying to gouge each other for what they can get.

rossc007

iMax wrote: »

Systems like this work fantastically well in the USA (for example), where people have honour. The honour system (e.g. pay it forward etc), work very well over there.

Irish people for the most part are dishonourable. Constantly trying to gouge each other for what they can get.

I'd be interested in seeing where communism worked "Fantasically well" in the US.

Frank100

iMax wrote: »

Systems like this work fantastically well in the USA (for example), where people have honour. The honour system (e.g. pay it forward etc), work very well over there.

Irish people for the most part are dishonourable. Constantly trying to gouge each other for what they can get.

This system works very well in various parts of the world. For example Australia, I was in a long conversation with them and they have it well sorted. For example they have markets where you can use cash or CES credits to buy stuff.

Concerning the remark about people being dishonourable... You find dishonourable people everywhere. It is up to us, the honourable people to stand up for a change and do something.
Say your say, do your thing but do not sit back in your armchair and criticize. That accomplishes nothing.

Makes me think about the saying: Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.

That is why I am so pro the CES (old Lets) system.

Instead of moaning everyday about taxes, the government and price hikes I do something about it.
If we wait for other people to solve our problems we will wait forever.

Perhaps I am being over optimistic and positive but in the end of the day, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

ei.sdraob

RichardAnd wrote: »

Pretty much my take. I think I'll sign up to this thing, no harm in that

Oh I think its an ok idea, and I previously had a thread on similar subject of local currencies few years back
But Revenue are bastards, tho they do allow market stalls etc which are obviously used to fuel the criminal underworld, maybe they simply dont have the resources

Godge

Frank100 wrote: »

We are currently busy setting up a Community exchange system across Ireland where people can exchange goods and services for credits.

This means that you do not have to be employed to buy goods or services.
Money is virtual credits, to get virtual credits you can sell things or you can offer your skills. This can be from fixing a car to walking someone's dog.
There also is no real debt, your balance can go into the negative (though there is a limit)

All that is needed are for people to actively join, lists their skills, goods and fill in their requirements or wants.

Have a look at this website: http://www.grendill.com/ces

Feel free to join (for free), it is like on-line shopping with no cash involved.

Can we have all the other bits of feudalism as well? The poverty and the lack of imports?

While I think it an excellent idea the balance of skills to swoop for would need to be very good, what happens if you have lot of people offering babysitting and dog walking and very few offering car servicing or carpentry services.

Frank100

Godge wrote: »

Can we have all the other bits of feudalism as well? The poverty and the lack of imports?

You take from the system what you want. If you want label it Feudalism with poverty and lack of imports go ahead, make yourself happy.

Personally I am going to take the good out of a system like this and make the best use of it.

When a 65 year old who is on a measly pension can advertise his skills like walking a dog, fixing clothes etc, can earn credits to pay a plumber to fix his broken pipes I see practicality in the system.

When an unemployed lady is baking bread for credits that she spend on someone giving her a lift into town to look for work, a system like this makes sense to me.

You can label it all you want, you can bring out all the potential problems, but those actions are as productive as raising taxes on people that are already suffering to pay their mortgages or to find work.

Additionally you do not have to be unemployed or old to benefit from the system either. The money you save by exchanging talents/skills and unwanted items can give your family an extra holiday or more food on the table.

Frank100

mariaalice wrote: »

While I think it an excellent idea the balance of skills to swoop for would need to be very good, what happens if you have lot of people offering babysitting and dog walking and very few offering car servicing or carpentry services.

I am sure that someone will see a gap in the market and start learning carpentry or auto repairs.

Time will sort these bumps out.

bohsfan

Frank100 wrote: »

This system works very well in various parts of the world. For example Australia, I was in a long conversation with them and they have it well sorted. For example they have markets where you can use cash or CES credits to buy stuff.

This all sounds interesting. However, I wonder what is in it for the market trader to accept these credits instead of cash? They add them to their own credits and can use them for services is it?

Frank100

bohsfan wrote: »

This all sounds interesting. However, I wonder what is in it for the market trader to accept these credits instead of cash? They add them to their own credits and can use them for services is it?

Needless to say the person that uses credits at the market to buy things have to be registered on the system.
But yes, the trader can later 'swap' his credits for someone to fix his car or he can buy a DVD etc, through the CES system

The Scientician

A bit of constructive advice. Your website is too complicated. I would recommend having an explanatory youtube video as the first thing the interested party sees when they click on your site.

I'm a bit dubious of the whole concept to be honest, but best of luck with it.

Frank100

The Scientician wrote: »

A bit of constructive advice. Your website is too complicated. I would recommend having an explanatory youtube video as the first thing the interested party sees when they click on your site.

I'm a bit dubious of the whole concept to be honest, but best of luck with it.

Constructive advice (even criticism) is always welcome. It is noted and will be discussed. In the end of the day, I believe things must be simple.

I would be interested to hear and perhaps discuss what doubts or concerns you have about the Exchange systems.

HivemindXX

All the usual problems of a scrip system are present as far as I can see.

Scrip is of little use if you can't get what you want for it. If I want to buy a new computer and no companies accept your scrip then I need to have actual money. I'm trading my labour and products for something that is less flexible than cash.

The owners of the system have to be trusted. How do we know they simply won't issue themselves huge amounts of virtual currency and effectively get things for free causing massive inflation in the system. How do we know what happens to any balances we might have if the owners simply disappear.

To overcome those issues there would need to be significant benefits to using the scrip over simply using a regular currency. I'm unclear what those advantages actually are. The implicit advantage is the idea that you don't have to pay any tax. Which is unlikely to remain true for very long.

Frank100

HivemindXX wrote: »

All the usual problems of a scrip system are present as far as I can see.

Scrip is of little use if you can't get what you want for it. If I want to buy a new computer and no companies accept your scrip then I need to have actual money. I'm trading my labour and products for something that is less flexible than cash.

The owners of the system have to be trusted. How do we know they simply won't issue themselves huge amounts of virtual currency and effectively get things for free causing massive inflation in the system. How do we know what happens to any balances we might have if the owners simply disappear.

To overcome those issues there would need to be significant benefits to using the scrip over simply using a regular currency. I'm unclear what those advantages actually are. The implicit advantage is the idea that you don't have to pay any tax. Which is unlikely to remain true for very long.

Thank you for your input and interest. I would like to discuss what you said below.

Point 1:

Cash is perhaps flexible but for most not as easy to get as what credits would be.
To get cash you go to work where you are employed mostly for a specific talent.
To get credits you use as much skills as you have and as many areas. From being a charter accountant to walking someone's dog or bake a bread.

Both systems have flaws, for the trading system it is to get enough diverse people to participate actively. Remember we are not aiming to replace the cash system just to compliment it.
CES could make more cash available to spend, which in return will benefit the economy and the tax man. In the end we will save through by less waste (instead of storing that DVD that you do not want, sell it on CES) and we will have more opportunity to be active and contribute to society.

Point 2:
The CES system is transparent, anyone at any time can have a look at the books. Everything has to balance. Every credit has to come from somewhere. You have balance sheets and totals of all the exchanges across the world.

If someone manages to give himself 500 credits what has he got? Virtual money. He has to exchange those credits for someone else's labour before the credits are worth anything.
There is no point in cheating here. Everything everyone do is completely transparent to everyone else.


Point 3:
To explain this in more detail I copy and pasted the info below:

Here are some of the advantages of the using the Community Exchange System

• It provides another stream of income
• It bridges the 'money gap' between the skills/offers/talents/gifts of sellers on the one hand and the wants/needs/requirements of buyers on the other. Conventional money usually can't bridge this gap because its supply is limited or non-existent.
• It builds community
• CES 'money' is abundant and can never be in short supply
• CES 'money' can never be in oversupply and cause inflation
• It is democratic: it returns 'money power' to the people
• It allocates credit democratically
• It eliminates usury. Its money is 'free' (i.e. interest free)
• It keeps wealth where it is created
• It eliminates cheating, theft and fraud (of money)
• It provides a support network
• It eliminates the problem of sellers not being paid for what they supply
• It reconciles the accounts of buyers and sellers immediately
• It promotes honesty because one can never 'run out of money'
• It levels the playing field: everyone starts from zero and those who deliver real value to others are the ones who get 'rich', not those who deliver nothing but acquire their wealth by manipulating the currency
• It gives local suppliers preference
• It eliminates the waste of transporting goods from all over because its focus is local
• It destroys the notion that the source of money is a job: the source of money is the delivery of value from one entity (person, company etc.) to another
• It streamlines transactions and eliminates wasted effort (e.g. sending accounts, debt collecting)
• It mobilizes the real wealth of a community: The knowledge and skills of its people is the real wealth of a community
• It fosters self-reliance and self esteem
• It fosters social justice and equality
• And many, many more...

The Scientician

Frank100 wrote: »

I would be interested to hear and perhaps discuss what doubts or concerns you have about the Exchange systems.

Primarily, what you're talking about already happens on an ad hoc basis, amongst friends and friends-of-friends. I'm not sure how comfortable I, or many others, would be moving beyond those close social circles. Frankly, I wouldn't trust a stranger to do something for me, unless I was paying them.

Plus, if you have a real, in demand, talent or skill, you can get cold hard cash for it, even still in this economy, so why would you bother signing up for this?

I think it might be more fruitful to de-emphasise the exchange part, and just start a "start being sound to your neighbours" campaign. You could call it, um, Christianity.

Outkast_IRE

Cant wait for someone to start offering sexual services , as theres no real money changing hands theres no criminal offense really is there

Frank100

The Scientician wrote: »

Primarily, what you're talking about already happens on an ad hoc basis, amongst friends and friends-of-friends. I'm not sure how comfortable I, or many others, would be moving beyond those close social circles. Frankly, I wouldn't trust a stranger to do something for me, unless I was paying them.

Plus, if you have a real, in demand, talent or skill, you can get cold hard cash for it, even still in this economy, so why would you bother signing up for this?

I think it might be more fruitful to de-emphasise the exchange part, and just start a "start being sound to your neighbours" campaign. You could call it, um, Christianity.

There are only two types of people I can thing of that would have no use for this system, those who have more than enough money and those who do not have enough time.

So I agree with you, if you are in demand, make enough money why would you bother taking part in CES?

However if you have money but also have time then take part in CES and buy that bread from the old lady down the road so that she can use her credits to pay the plumber to fix her tap.
Giving her the power to do that herself is far better than making her feel guilty to ask for favours every time she needs help.

CES is fun, myself and my friends do charge each other for things. I know all that person X has to offer and do not have to feel guilty about asking for help because I pay back in credits.
Credits he can use to do buy that book from Person B.

IF you start thinking about old people, the young, unemployed you will only start scratching the surface of the benefits of CES.

Community building is another. Bringing people together sharing talents, helping each other.
Christianity does this to a certain extend, so does Hinduism, Family and CES.

This should be fun firstly, secondly it must be practical.

Frank100

Frank100 wrote: »

• CES 'money' is abundant and can never be in short supply
• CES 'money' can never be in oversupply and cause inflation
• It eliminates cheating, theft and fraud (of money)
• It eliminates the problem of sellers not being paid for what they supply
• It reconciles the accounts of buyers and sellers immediately

How can the first two points reconcile? (if say someone does a lot of dog walking in an area and builds up a lot of credits can they use these to outbid others?)

What happens if people use the services and then don't engage further?
What if there is a dispute - how is this resolved?

Frank100

Deleted User wrote: »

How can the first two points reconcile? (if say someone does a lot of dog walking in an area and builds up a lot of credits can they use these to outbid others?)

What happens if people use the services and then don't engage further?
What if there is a dispute - how is this resolved?

If you do not have credits you go into the minus. Credits do not disappear, lose value and can not be stolen.
an ideal bank account is zero, not 1 million or 5 million but zero. An equal give and receive.
This is a concept that needs to be understood correctly.

You can not outbid anyone as this is not an auction. You ring up for the service, get the service done and the person that supplied the service (or goods) will charge your account and he will get his credits immediately, even if you are in the minus.
Keep in mind that we can make limits in debit and credit numbers.

Dormant accounts with minus credits will be paid by levies that is charged on transactions. There is a debit limit to try and prevent this but this in general has not been a problem. Cheating is not worth the effort with this system. In the end even if you get your services, quit and leave your account in the minus, every one has been paid.
The only loser is the person who does not contribute and that is usually easy to spot and difficult to duplicate. This is where system administrators and area coordinators come in.

Disputes are handled by Admin and coordinators, if no solution results it will go to CES HQ in Cape Town South Africa.

Frank100

I forgot to mention that you also do not have to 'sell' if you do not want to.
If a person approaches you for a service, have a look at his history. Has he very little offerings? Has he never done anything and has he got all purchases and no services, then do not do business with him.

SugarHigh

So an old lady can sell cakes for credits, what's stopping her selling them for cash instead?

Why would anybody want credits that are only excepted by a few over cash which is basically credits excepted by everyone?

SugarHigh

Also since you started this currency, what's to stop you just making yourself a millionaire since you control it?

You can literally change the value of your own account which would make you loaded and devalue everyone elses money.

Not to mention how vulnerable it all is to hackers. Bit coin got hacked so why not you?

Frank100

SugarHigh wrote: »

So an old lady can sell cakes for credits, what's stopping her selling them for cash instead?

Why would anybody want credits that are only excepted by a few over cash which is basically credits excepted by everyone?

Nothing stops her from selling them for cash instead, and good for her too, but perhaps she could also sell/trade them at CES too. For credits that she can use perhaps to repay her neighbour that keeps helping her with her shopping.

Perhaps he keeps helping her because he is not doing it for free he is getting credits.

It is nice to do something for free but it is also nice being able to pay for something. Give and receive.
If people are not willing to take then they rob the ability of people to give, and vice versa.

Because CES does not work with cash, you will usually see services not otherwise advertised.
You will also find some services cheaper, because you have the ability to walk a dog for credits you are also prepared to do it for less.

I want credits because I had fun helping someone in their garden and also because it is going to be fun scrolling through the CES index to see what I am going to buy next.

I gave my labour at my own time voluntary; I get paid in credits
I am force to go to work due to my debt and mortgage; I get paid in cash

CES is a different mind set. It does not need to be complicated. It needs to be fun first. The rest will come by itself.

Frank100

SugarHigh wrote: »

Also since you started this currency, what's to stop you just making yourself a millionaire since you control it?

You can literally change the value of your own account which would make you loaded and devalue everyone elses money.

Not to mention how vulnerable it all is to hackers. Bit coin got hacked so why not you?

All Exhanges across the world are linked. All balances and trades are transparent. If I give myself 1 million credits, my admin account will automatically be -1 million. I can not escape this.

Anyone can check my transactions, a 1 million deposit yesterday into my account will look suspicions seeing the admin account now stands at -1million.

Remember that the total balance for all the exchanges across the world (keep in mind they are all linked) should be zero.

Zero is the perfect number here, an equal give and receive.

Concerning hacking, hack it, have a million in your account. Now you have to start phoning people trying to spend your million hacked credits. Various people will check your history, might see an irregularity, when did you join, what was your activity over the past few year, etc.

By this time a warning has gone off and before you can knock on your first door to spend your credits your account will be closed. Or the the knock on the door you think is the plumber that will fix your taps is a man with a badge.

SugarHigh

You haven't convinced me to trust you. You have complete control over this currency so of course you can abuse it. Why should I work hard for some crappy currency when your website could shut down any day and all my saved currency is gone.

All your examples of use cases could all be replaced by cash, you even admit this. I see no reason why things would be cheaper using this currency and even if they were that would also mean you get paid less when it comes to selling.

The whole idea is a crock of crap and you seem to be putting forward a fake idea of transparency when in fact you rely on us trusting you, even though you haven't earned it.

Where do you make your money or is this an altruistic service you are providing?

dissed doc

Frank100 wrote: »

We are currently busy setting up a Community exchange system across Ireland where people can exchange goods and services for credits.

This means that you do not have to be employed to buy goods or services.
Money is virtual credits, to get virtual credits you can sell things or you can offer your skills. This can be from fixing a car to walking someone's dog.
Feel free to join (for free), it is like on-line shopping with no cash involved.

It's a good idea but crucially makes you the enemy of the state:

The government typically wants 21% (VAT) of the value of an item being sold to another person, or what, half that for any service you provide. Get paid for 8 hrs, the government initially takes 1-2 hrs for themselves as a privelege for letting you provide your services.

Now, because you want to keep the reward of the remaining 6hrs, the government takes another 2-3hrs, maybe 4hrs of whatever value si remaining.

So, in essence, unless you are converting all values into cash and then giving the government 60-70% of it, the government loses and therefore makes what you are doing illegal.

It's why we have the shared delusion of currency, and why you are becoming poorer all the time, unless you step out of the system.

thebman

Frank100 wrote: »

Concerning hacking, hack it, have a million in your account. Now you have to start phoning people trying to spend your million hacked credits. Various people will check your history, might see an irregularity, when did you join, what was your activity over the past few year, etc.

By this time a warning has gone off and before you can knock on your first door to spend your credits your account will be closed. Or the the knock on the door you think is the plumber that will fix your taps is a man with a badge.

You only have to hack/add enough to make it look believable. If you give yourself a million credits, it looks obvious. But if you give yourself a few hundred credits every other week for nothing in what looks like an legitimate transaction to a faked third party that looks legitimate, how could anyone know from your page that it occurred?

Frank100

SugarHigh wrote: »

You haven't convinced me to trust you. You have complete control over this currency so of course you can abuse it. Why should I work hard for some crappy currency when your website could shut down any day and all my saved currency is gone.

All your examples of use cases could all be replaced by cash, you even admit this. I see no reason why things would be cheaper using this currency and even if they were that would also mean you get paid less when it comes to selling.

The whole idea is a crock of crap and you seem to be putting forward a fake idea of transparency when in fact you rely on us trusting you, even though you haven't earned it.

Where do you make your money or is this an altruistic service you are providing?

I am not expecting everyone to trust the system or to believe me. Life gives you choices and you have the free will to make them.
I would however advice you to study all the material that is available on the website, and the mother website. http://www.community-exchange.org/

Take part in discussions here: http://communityexchange.ning.com/

You can read up and talk to people across the world where these systems have been successfully in place for many years.

Alternatively you can PM me your contact number and I will meet you for discussion and a practical overview of how everything works.

I have nothing to hide from you. I have a successful job have a roof over my head and food on my table. I am not doing this out of personal necessity. I am doing this because it is a brilliant system, way of life and has the potential to make a big positive change in many peoples lives never mind the benefit is has for communities and Ireland as a whole.

More info pasted:
Q. What is to stop me just entering payments into my account so that I get lots of credits?

A. You don't need credits to trade so there is no point in this. In any case, your credits are someone else's debits, and they will question your false trades with them. Your balance, which is open for everyone to see, will also reveal what you are doing. There is no need to cheat in the CES because you can simply go into debit and 'pay back' what you have received by delivering goods and services to others at a later time.

Q. What if someone exploits the system and then leaves the community without giving anything in return?

A. This can happen but equally someone who has given more than they have taken can also leave the community. If someone exploits the system it is the community that bears the burden, not any particular user.

Q. What if someone doesn't pay me for work I have done for them?

A. That is impossible. You - the seller - are responsible for entering or getting entered the transaction information and you will be immediately credited for it. In the CES the buyer is the passive party.

Frank100

dissed doc wrote: »

It's a good idea but crucially makes you the enemy of the state:

The government typically wants 21% (VAT) of the value of an item being sold to another person, or what, half that for any service you provide. Get paid for 8 hrs, the government initially takes 1-2 hrs for themselves as a privelege for letting you provide your services.

Now, because you want to keep the reward of the remaining 6hrs, the government takes another 2-3hrs, maybe 4hrs of whatever value si remaining.

So, in essence, unless you are converting all values into cash and then giving the government 60-70% of it, the government loses and therefore makes what you are doing illegal.

It's why we have the shared delusion of currency, and why you are becoming poorer all the time, unless you step out of the system.

This is putting your one foot out of the system. I also believe that this system is beneficial to the money system and should run in parallel to it.
It can free up cash to spend and revitalise the economy which in return will give the tax man his much needed revenue.

Is this just a tax dodge?

Definitely not! Our motives are noble. Our aim is to create a more equal society where wealth is distributed according to contribution, not according to the ability to ‘make money’. In other countries where these systems have become big, the state has either ignored the tax angle because it saves state expenditure on welfare payments, or there is an agreement to provide services to the state. Our approach is that when the CES becomes big, the state should become a user of the CES and participate in the normal way. In this way the state could credit itself through the services it provides to all user and debit itself by purchasing the services of CES users.

Frank100

thebman wrote: »

You only have to hack/add enough to make it look believable. If you give yourself a million credits, it looks obvious. But if you give yourself a few hundred credits every other week for nothing in what looks like an legitimate transaction to a faked third party that looks legitimate, how could anyone know from your page that it occurred?

I suspect you do not know the infrastructure of the system to make such comments.

Your hacked page might reflect correct figures but the balances on the multiple servers across the world will tell a different story. I urge you to study the system and the mechanics behind it in more detail.

whatstherush

Frank100 wrote: »

I suspect you do not know the infrastructure of the system to make such comments.

Your hacked page might reflect correct figures but the balances on the multiple servers across the world will tell a different story. I urge you to study the system and the mechanics behind it in more detail.

Why is the system on multiple servers around the world when it is local to Ireland?
Also I don't get the whole head office in South Africa angle, why would they have any interest in a system here?

Do you as provider of the system make any real money from the users?

Frank100

whatstherush wrote: »

Why is the system on multiple servers around the world when it is local to Ireland?
Also I don't get the whole head office in South Africa angle, why would they have any interest in a system here?

Do you as provider of the system make any real money from the users?

Multiple servers to share load and backup.

This specific system was started in South Africa. The system thinks global. for example, my wife did a painting for someone in Australia. The credits got paid into the Irish exchange.
next time you visit Canada you might be able to pay for accommodation using your Irish credits.

I am not a provider, merely an administrator. I make no money nor does anyone else, we are all volunteers. I started this sytem because there was none at the time in Ireland, apart from a defunct time system based on the old Lets system). I give an open invitation for anyone to meet me face to face and discuss, test and investigate the CES system.

I was as critical as everyone on this forum of the system. After research, debates, questions and testing it I am happy with it to be legit and workable.

To be honest there is only one problem with this system and that is people.
the system needs active people to participate otherwise it is a dead skeleton.
People's participation gives us the options to spend credits. Advertising skills/talents and goods gives people the option to spend credits. In that order of importance and so the wheel continues.

lmimmfn

great idea and +1 on getting something like that up and running. Im not saying this is avoiding tax in any way but to be honest i hope it is, every extra hour i work its the government saying to me, thanks, 53 for me 47 for you, keep it up idiot.

F**k the government and their taxes, ive already paid loads of people for work ex tax, and proud to do so. Yes if everyone is like me it would mean more taxes but f**k that, the person getting the money gets paid instead of me getting 47% of my money and him getting 48-80% of what i paid him.

This is off topic but i will without a doubt support the black economy.

Armin_Tamzarian

I like this idea, all the best with it OP.

Zubeneschamali

The domain name www.grendill.com/ces is not descriptive or memorable, but www.blackeconomy.ie is available.

HivemindXX

lmimmfn wrote: »

great idea and +1 on getting something like that up and running. Im not saying this is avoiding tax in any way but to be honest i hope it is, every extra hour i work its the government saying to me, thanks, 53 for me 47 for you, keep it up idiot.

F**k the government and their taxes, ive already paid loads of people for work ex tax, and proud to do so. Yes if everyone is like me it would mean more taxes but f**k that, the person getting the money gets paid instead of me getting 47% of my money and him getting 48-80% of what i paid him.

This is off topic but i will without a doubt support the black economy.

This sort of reasoning is fantastically naive and juvenile. You reap the benefit of taxation every single day. If everyone had the attitude you had and the spine to back it up with action we would actually be a third world country.

The fact the proposer of this scrip system thanked this post tells me quite a bit about their own attitudes. It seems clear to me that the only benefit of this system is tax evasion.

With regards to fraud. Nothing the OP has said disproves the possibility of the system owners simply creating credits for themselves. For example the system admins create a thousand fake accounts, these fake accounts buy a fake service from another fake account, the credits go through a few jumps and end up in a slush fund account. This is a very simple example, I'm sure if I had the time, the incentive and the total control over every aspect of the system that the owners have I could come up with something better.

The buyer being passive simply moves the possibility of fraud on to the seller. Someone says they'll trade me a camera for so many credits and simply credits themselves from my account and never sends the item.

Also of note is that the system owners have records of every transaction that occurs. If this system became the defacto currency the random internet guys who own the system would have far more knowledge of your business than any national government currently does.

keithclancy

lmimmfn wrote: »

great idea and +1 on getting something like that up and running. Im not saying this is avoiding tax in any way but to be honest i hope it is, every extra hour i work its the government saying to me, thanks, 53 for me 47 for you, keep it up idiot.

F**k the government and their taxes, ive already paid loads of people for work ex tax, and proud to do so. Yes if everyone is like me it would mean more taxes but f**k that, the person getting the money gets paid instead of me getting 47% of my money and him getting 48-80% of what i paid him.

This is off topic but i will without a doubt support the black economy.

When you pay your taxes your paying for the Roads outside, the parks, the lighting the sewage system, the street sweepers and so on.

With your idea of not paying taxes you'd be living in an overgrown field in a tent you had to get from a charity that would had to have airdropped it in due to there being no roads.

Frank100

HivemindXX wrote: »

This sort of reasoning is fantastically naive and juvenile. You reap the benefit of taxation every single day. If everyone had the attitude you had and the spine to back it up with action we would actually be a third world country.

The fact the proposer of this scrip system thanked this post tells me quite a bit about their own attitudes. It seems clear to me that the only benefit of this system is tax evasion.

With regards to fraud. Nothing the OP has said disproves the possibility of the system owners simply creating credits for themselves. For example the system admins create a thousand fake accounts, these fake accounts buy a fake service from another fake account, the credits go through a few jumps and end up in a slush fund account. This is a very simple example, I'm sure if I had the time, the incentive and the total control over every aspect of the system that the owners have I could come up with something better.

The buyer being passive simply moves the possibility of fraud on to the seller. Someone says they'll trade me a camera for so many credits and simply credits themselves from my account and never sends the item.

Also of note is that the system owners have records of every transaction that occurs. If this system became the defacto currency the random internet guys who own the system would have far more knowledge of your business than any national government currently does.

I thanked the poster because he is one of few that has anything positive to say. "great idea and +1 on getting something like that up and running."

I am not pro breaking any law. This should be clear from my posts.
What I find frightening is the amount of negative responses I get. Very few constructive posts.

If the admin creates a few thousand fake accounts and these fake accounts buy stuff from other fake accounts you have half fake accounts with a negative balance and half fake accounts with a positive balance.
Keep in mind together we still have nill. The admin could not create credits out of nothing. He has a few negative accounts that he has to explain.

Concerning your comment about system owners having record, system became the defacto etc.
What can I tell you with all this negative thought..... What if the money system collapse and you can fall back on CES, what if CES permanently run in parallel and complimentary to the money system? What if people are so closely together communities that their is no possibility or need for fraud? What if people continuously moan and be groan everything around them and never ever do or suggest anything new?

Added:
I just want to confirm that I am pro the system. Pro a working and fair system. Every country need an infrastructure and the citizens of that country must finance it through taxes.
I am however anti abuse of the system and anti waste.
The waste element is what CES is all about.
Wasted talents that there are no jobs for.
Wasted Goods that there are no homes for.
CES stops waste by connecting people.

Frank100

Perhaps I am not explaining myself properly. Perhaps I am just not use to so much negative thought.

Say I am who you say I am, a hoax and fraudster.
Lets say, I give wangle the CES system so that I have millions of credits.

Lets say there are thousands of people on CES.

What do I do with my million credits? By lots of stuff? Do I drive to all these people to get my stuff that I am buying with stolen credits? Do I show my face every time? Do I keep track of what account I use for a specific supplier so that next time I buy from him I use the same ID?

Fraud on CES in not necessary. If I want to buy something and I do not have credits, I go into the negative. A negative balance is not seen as a debt.
There is currently a limit of -500 but this can be increased after review. If you have a zillion things advertised and listed lots of wants then you are actively helping and feeding the system. Your Debit limit will be raised.

The concept of CES is a give and take. Too much give or too much take does not work. Dormant accounts, especially those with credits are worse than negative accounts.

Perhaps you join buy a cake from someone and leave the system. You think you are clever to cheat, in the end of the day you paid someone for that cake.
Yes your account is negative but so what? You are the fool that are now out of the system or has to recreate addresses and email accounts to get back in.
Perhaps this system is based on a concept that are unfamiliar to most. Kindness, Fairness, Respect, Loyalty and Participation.

The Law of attraction never fails.

Godge

Frank100 wrote: »

You take from the system what you want. If you want label it Feudalism with poverty and lack of imports go ahead, make yourself happy.

Personally I am going to take the good out of a system like this and make the best use of it.

When a 65 year old who is on a measly pension can advertise his skills like walking a dog, fixing clothes etc, can earn credits to pay a plumber to fix his broken pipes I see practicality in the system.

When an unemployed lady is baking bread for credits that she spend on someone giving her a lift into town to look for work, a system like this makes sense to me.

You can label it all you want, you can bring out all the potential problems, but those actions are as productive as raising taxes on people that are already suffering to pay their mortgages or to find work.

Additionally you do not have to be unemployed or old to benefit from the system either. The money you save by exchanging talents/skills and unwanted items can give your family an extra holiday or more food on the table.

I get it now, a legal form of social welfare fraud. You take what you get from the state in social welfare or other benefits and you work on the side for non-cash in order to avoid having your benefits withdrawn. Clever, very clever, and the only victim is the unknown taxpayer.

Frank100

Godge wrote: »

I get it now, a legal form of social welfare fraud. You take what you get from the state in social welfare or other benefits and you work on the side for non-cash in order to avoid having your benefits withdrawn. Clever, very clever, and the only victim is the unknown taxpayer.

As clever as suing someone for something you did out of stupidity?
As clever as making false medical claims or children allowance, etc etc etc?
We can wrap the whole CES idea with a blanket of Fraud if we want. I still like to rather think positively as in the examples below:

When a 65 year old who is on a measly pension can advertise his skills like walking a dog, fixing clothes etc, can earn credits to pay a plumber to fix his broken pipes I see practicality in the system.

When an unemployed lady is baking bread for credits that she spend on someone giving her a lift into town to look for work, a system like this makes sense to me.

So you give me problems but can you give me solutions?
A solution is for the government to monitor CES, just like the banks monitor online gambling when it comes to applying for a loan.

johnnyskeleton

Frank100 wrote: »

Ok, lets take worst case scenario, revenue start taxing the system.
So what? We still have a better opportunity to make use of our skills and work.
We the people are also in control of setting prices.

For example: I can work as a plumber, a dog walker and a DIY guy and I determine what people pay me.

People set the price in the current system too. It is not just you who sets your price, you have to AGREE that price with the other person. You can't just walk their dog and insist on getting a bar of gold in exchange for it.

Frank100 wrote: »

Perhaps if the government start taxing us we will pay them back in credits.

They can put a value on these credits (after all, they are a currency in their own right) and then tax you based on your income from these credits. If you don't pay, they can treat you much like any other revenue defaulter.

Alternatively, if I were the government, I'd look up the names of everyone using this "credits" system and then magically turn their social welfare payments into "credits".

All the people who do these crazy schemes to strike back at de man or saying its not my fault the economy is in tatters need to wake up. They are only striking back at their neighbours. They are just as much to blame as anyone else (all other things being equal). Crucially, they seem to have no problem taking social welfare payments, education, health, protection etc from the state. In fact, they are typically the first to complain when the health service isn't up to their impossible standards, but balk at paying even a penny over in taxes to make those health services better.

Colour it any way you will, this is just a form of leeching off your neighbours.

Frank100 wrote: »

We can criticize everything in life, but unless we try something all criticism is merely assumptions.

So try tax fraud? Why not bank robbery? After all, you are providing a service by taking their worthless euros and replacing them with healthy "magic credits" (for the benefit of the mods, I am being facetious, and am not seriously advocating bank robbery or any other form of criminal behaviour).

Frank100

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

People set the price in the current system too. It is not just you who sets your price, you have to AGREE that price with the other person. You can't just walk their dog and insist on getting a bar of gold in exchange for it.



They can put a value on these credits (after all, they are a currency in their own right) and then tax you based on your income from these credits. If you don't pay, they can treat you much like any other revenue defaulter.

Alternatively, if I were the government, I'd look up the names of everyone using this "credits" system and then magically turn their social welfare payments into "credits".

All the people who do these crazy schemes to strike back at de man or saying its not my fault the economy is in tatters need to wake up. They are only striking back at their neighbours. They are just as much to blame as anyone else (all other things being equal). Crucially, they seem to have no problem taking social welfare payments, education, health, protection etc from the state. In fact, they are typically the first to complain when the health service isn't up to their impossible standards, but balk at paying even a penny over in taxes to make those health services better.

Colour it any way you will, this is just a form of leeching off your neighbours.

I agree with you on everything except your concept of what CES is. If after all my posts you still see this as a scheme and tax fraud we will have to agree to disagree.

Just a quick question, if I advertise my skill or goods on Buy&Sell do you also see this as tax fraud seeing I am not being taxed on these goods and services? Or is the fact that I get credits rather than money which disturbs you?

So if I trade my DVD for credits on CES I am leeching of my neighbour but when I sell it on Ebay or I am not?

ChRoMe

Frank100 wrote: »

I agree with you on everything except your concept of what CES is. If after all my posts you still see this as a scheme and tax fraud we will have to agree to disagree.

Just a quick question, if I advertise my skill or goods on Buy&Sell do you also see this as tax fraud seeing I am not being taxed on these goods and services? Or is the fact that I get credits rather than money which disturbs you?

So if I trade my DVD for credits on CES I am leeching of my neighbour but when I sell it on Ebay or I am not?

Am I the only person failing to see how this has any advantages over cash?

It just looks like a localised version of BitCoin.

Frank100

ChRoMe wrote: »

Am I the only person failing to see how this has any advantages over cash?

It just looks like a localised version of BitCoin.

See post #20 (page 2) for some advantages this have over cash, but don't see credits as an enemy of cash rather a supplement.