Do I need planning permission to pipe a river?

PCDave

Hi,I have a farm across which the NRA are putting a 4 lane highway.I have bits of fields that I want to join together to make one large field. My question revolves around a stream that seperates two "bits" of fields,I wish to pipe it,cover the piping with a layer of gravel and cover over with topsoil. The length of river to be piped would be roughly around 300ft in length. Do I need planning permission to pipe this stretch of river.Both sides of the river belongs to me.I'm just tryingt to tidy up after the NRA (clueless) are finished cutting me up.I'm not in reps.If I do need planning permission,why might I be refused?Thanks

Bactidiaryl

just do it. dont bring them on you.

LostCovey

Bactidiaryl wrote: »

just do it. dont bring them on you.

Bactidiaryl,

Were you the Credit Controller in Anglo-Irish Bank?

johngalway

Bactidiaryl wrote: »

just do it. dont bring them on you.

That's not what the OP asked. If indeed he does need planning permission for such an action then he's going about in the correct way looking for information that may solve possible future headaches.

bob charles

if you go looking for trouble you will be sure to find it, an no better people than the County Council to cause unnecessary hassle just to keep themselves employed. just say the NRA specified this and done the job if there is ever a problem, get on with it man, done something similar today to a dyke/drain and then bulldozed over the top of it with 10ft of clay, nice level field now

LostCovey

A lot will depend on

- the size of the watercourse (is it really a river or are you using the term very loosely). I am not sure what is a stream and what is a river, but if you can cross it in wellies its probably not a river.

- will there be consequences for anyone other than yourself. For example if the pipe gets blocked with pallets and manure bags will you flood your neighbour?

And of course there's always the bridge option, or 'kesh' as they call them round here.

LostCovey

reilig

PCDave wrote: »

Hi,I have a farm across which the NRA are putting a 4 lane highway.I have bits of fields that I want to join together to make one large field. My question revolves around a stream that seperates two "bits" of fields,I wish to pipe it,cover the piping with a layer of gravel and cover over with topsoil. The length of river to be piped would be roughly around 300ft in length. Do I need planning permission to pipe this stretch of river.Both sides of the river belongs to me.I'm just tryingt to tidy up after the NRA (clueless) are finished cutting me up.I'm not in reps.If I do need planning permission,why might I be refused?Thanks

Its a black area with little information available to the farmer as to the correct thing to do. I'm sure you had a farm planner with your dealings with the NRA. If so, you might be best placed to seek their advice.

pakalasa

If you remember a few years back, there was serious flooding in a new Kildare housing estate. This was caused by a piped river, similar to what you wish to do. Ironically, the council approved the work.
So, as mentioned already, what happens when the place floods. Will you be liable?
It might be safer to get permission. No harm doing things right.

cjpm

FYI The council will tell you to contact the fisheries board. It's them i'd be more worried about to be honest.

LostCovey

cjpm wrote: »

FYI The council will tell you to contact the fisheries board. It's them i'd be more worried about to be honest.

Very true

6600

Bactidiaryl wrote: »

just do it. dont bring them on you.

Have to agree with Bactidiaryl, JFDI then blame the NRA in the unlikely case of any questions. There will have been loads of earthmoving in the area if a road has been built, noone will notice another bit. Do it when you have the chance before any more bullsh*t regulations come in.

LostCovey

6600 wrote: »

Have to agree with Bactidiaryl, JFDI then blame the NRA in the unlikely case of any questions. There will have been loads of earthmoving in the area if a road has been built, noone will notice another bit. Do it when you have the chance before any more bullsh*t regulations come in.

......probably also loads of photography, and satellite photography.

Any subbie doing earthmoving on an NRA job will have a stack of paperwork associated with it.

I think this advice is naive and risky for the landowner, who will carry the can if it goes wrong.

LC

6600

Ok, so if you want to go down the bureaucracy route, there is a dispensation for field boundary reorganisation along a corridor beside a new road so you should be fine. Can't remember the exact details but a friend was in similar situation last year and that was the basis he worked on.

LostCovey

6600 wrote: »

Ok, so if you want to go down the bureaucracy route, there is a dispensation for field boundary reorganisation along a corridor beside a new road so you should be fine. Can't remember the exact details but a friend was in similar situation last year and that was the basis he worked on.

Look, its impossible to come to any conclusion without seeing the watercourse & its wider context.

The OP could be just piping a small shough, or putting a tributary of the Moy into concrete pipes that will stop a salmon run and get him prosecuted. Reilig's suggestion that he re-engage his farm planner is the best middle way.

LC

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

you should get in contact with your county council, and as mentioned, they will probably get the fisheries board involved if needed. They will let you know if you need planning. I would not agree with other people's views telling you to just get it piped, if you do need planning and go ahead with the work, you will have to remove all the pipes again and leave it in the state it was in.

just out if interest, how wide and deep is it? and is there any fish life in it? If there are fish in it, then you prob wont be able to touch it

PN14

OP you'll need to contact fyou local fisheries board and OPW if you want to be 100% in the right. If your stream or anywhere upstream from you is a fish spawning ground you can forget about pipes the fisheries board won't allow them especially over the distance your suggesting apparently the fish don't like travelling long distances with no light.

The OPW will be more concerned with flooding if you restrict the flow of the river to a pipe.

It all depends really on what your watercourse is i.e. size, catchment area for surrounding hills, fish spanwing grounds, an old ditch draining one field, but to be sure you'll need to at least to contact the two boards above. They'll give you the correct advice, it mightn't be what you want to hear but at least your not spending money now on something which may be a problem down the line and you have to rip up the whole thing again.

PaudyW

ring co co . you dont have to give them your name or address just ask them,

Bizzum

It would be vital that the OP makes contact with his local Fisheries Board, now Inland Fisheries Ireland (IFI).
Several things come into play here, one of the vital points is whether the stream is/has Salmonid (ie. Trout/Salmon) holding potential. It could well be an important nursery habitat or it could be of no value at all!
If you want to PM me I would have experience in this area.

PCDave

Lads,
thanks for all the replies,you've all touched on most of the thoughts I'm having myself.The issue arose when the sub contractor for the NRA approached me to forfeit an NRA agreed stretch of farm track(to cut costs on him) and he would provide me with a bridge (culvert) into the pice of land on the other side of the dyke/stream/river.I told him I would think about it and when he came back looking for an answer I told I would forgo the agreed farm track if he piped the 300ft of dyke/stream/river and join the piece into an existing field on the other side.He had a look at it and told me that he couldn't agree to it as he would need planning permission to do it and he didn't want to go down that route.To be honest it would suit me better to get the gap piped and filled over than have the farm track into the small piece of land.
where does one find a county council definition of a stream,river and dyke? As far as I am concerned it was a large dyke, at best a stream, it comes down from a mountain behind me and runs out of my land.There definitely no salmon or trout in it.
A few months ago I found a couple of people, sub contracted by the county council,out charting the water course.When did the local authorities get all this power to walk onto your land and do what they like and start creating laws to stop you doing anything at all?
I also called the ICMSA to get their advice and they said there is no hard a fast rule. I might push back on the sub contractor.
I can cross it with "wellies" only after climbing down the ditch (there is an 8ft drop into it).
I have it written into my contract agreement that the NRA/CC would be liable for any flooding caused by the introduction of the roadway.
6600 "there is a dispensation for field boundary reorganisation along a corridor beside a new road so you should be fine" can you expand on this a little bit please, who grants this dispensation?
Thanks again

Bizzum

PCDave wrote: »

where does one find a county council definition of a stream,river and dyke? As far as I am concerned it was a large dyke, at best a stream, it comes down from a mountain behind me and runs out of my land.There definitely no salmon or trout in it.

I don't know how the council define a river, but the Fisheries (Consolidation) Act, 1959 defines the word 'rivers' "includes tributaries of rivers and all other streams and watercourses"

I would have little doubt that it's a river you're dealing with. Further to this a watercourse does not have to contain water 365 days of the year!

And again in relation to salmonids, they do not neccessarily have to be there year round, salmonid potential could be enough!

It would probably be in your best interest to contact your local Fisheries Board

Supertech

Agricultural Developments which are exempt from planning permission are listed here http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1587,en.pdf

If you're still unsure, you could have your advisor look for a declaration of exemption from the local authority. Given the length and depth of what you're looking to pipe, it would sound to me like you need permission to do so.

6600

Am out of my depth (pardon the pun) when it comes to your stream. I've sent you a pm but was only talking about ditches/hedges/drains which i'm fairly certain you wouldn't have a problem with.

Jonty

OP,

Surely if the NRA are buying land from you, they can get the contractor to lay the pipe, and deduct the cost from your disturbance money?

Why Bark when you can get a dog to do it for you?

The NRA/Contrator must have an agricultural liason officer going around to all affected landowners?

9/10 if you play ball with the NRA/Contractor they will be sound with you.