Dog Problems!

kermitpwee

I have a 6 year old springer and recently I got a 8 month old springer. Both are males and are in the one pen and sleep in the one Kennel both have their tackle! In the first two weeks I thought that they would settle and it would be fine. 5 weeks later and my older dog looks depressed and is acting aloof. The younger dog is constantly scraping his face with his paw and jumping on him and pinning him to the ground. I am afraid he will take the older dogs eye out.
I have never had this problem with dogs before but the young dog is very domineering. The old dog is very placid but full of guts in the field and he means a lot to me and I have been offered big money for him numerous times. The younger dog is showing nice signs and is training very well. I don't have the space where I am to have another pen. I don't know what to do other then get rid of the young lad. Any other ideas?

EPointer=Birdss

Can you add a 2nd house. I've 2 'equipped' dogs in 1 run with 2 houses. They sleep separately but when it's cold like winter last year they have no problem sharing!
Also they often block the door so 2nd guy can't get in. Def keeps peace.

makescents

Adult dogs will usually give puppy dogs a lot of leeway as human adults do with children but the time will come when your older springer will say enough is enough and this is where problems can occur. If your kennel/pen is big enough simply put in a partition to keep them apart. Dont try to train them together. Use BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Therapy) to train the new springer to engage nicely with the older one. By simply putting the puppy outside in the garden for short periods of time (no more than 3 minutes at a time) any time he reacts badly to the other dog. Although the TO will not teach the puppy what it should be doing it will quickly learn that isolation will follow each time it jumps up and annoys the other dog. Use 'sit' and 'watch me' exercises and reward for positive feedback from the dogs. At home sit on the chair with the puppy on lead and the lead under ur foot, request a down and settle (I know this is hard with a springer) periodically rewarding the down and settle with a treat or simply a good boy and a rub.

EPointer=Birdss

makescents wrote: »

Adult dogs will usually give puppy dogs a lot of leeway as human adults do with children but the time will come when your older springer will say enough is enough and this is where problems can occur. If your kennel/pen is big enough simply put in a partition to keep them apart. Dont try to train them together. Use BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Therapy) to train the new springer to engage nicely with the older one. By simply putting the puppy outside in the garden for short periods of time (no more than 3 minutes at a time) any time he reacts badly to the other dog. Although the TO will not teach the puppy what it should be doing it will quickly learn that isolation will follow each time it jumps up and annoys the other dog. Use 'sit' and 'watch me' exercises and reward for positive feedback from the dogs. At home sit on the chair with the puppy on lead and the lead under ur foot, request a down and settle (I know this is hard with a springer) periodically rewarding the down and settle with a treat or simply a good boy and a rub.

1st of all welcome aboard.
I agreed with you as far as the bold. After that.
I think training a dog training techniques where it's like teaching a child is not how a dogs mind works but more how a human wants it's mind to work in the absence of any physical or verbal correction. Your suggesting the equilalent of the bold corner or naughty step for a dog.
That's not how they find their place in a pack & they are dogs. 1000s of years of evolution has wired their brains for pack behaviour & adhering to the order it brings.
They will sort out their differences & order will be found as that's how pack mentality works.
The older dog will give him a nip when he's had enough of it. ESP when the pup starts asserting dominance as it matures & no longer playfulness. This is how he learns what's acceptable & it takes the dog to show the pup he's place as much as the owner to discourage mis behaviour.

Prevention is the best form of improving this scenario & like you said split the runs is as good as anything if doable. BAT is all well & good when can be applied consistently all throughout the day. That's no use when the dog is 8hrs on his own with the pup during work for example.
Over complication with dogs IMO is often the beginning of failure. Commands should be short & concise. Single sylabol & said with assertion. Consistancy is as key as anything also.

I don't knock your technique I just disagree with it. Whatever works for individuals works & fair play but working dogs have been working for 100s of years with handlers & I can bet ya there was no naughty step in all of those years....

deeksofdoom

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

1st of all welcome aboard.
I agreed with you as far as the bold. After that.
I think training a dog training techniques where it's like teaching a child is not how a dogs mind works but more how a human wants it's mind to work in the absence of any physical or verbal correction. Your suggesting the equilalent of the bold corner or naughty step for a dog.
That's not how they find their place in a pack & they are dogs. 1000s of years of evolution has wired their brains for pack behaviour & adhering to the order it brings.
They will sort out their differences & order will be found as that's how pack mentality works.
The older dog will give him a nip when he's had enough of it. ESP when the pup starts asserting dominance as it matures & no longer playfulness. This is how he learns what's acceptable & it takes the dog to show the pup he's place as much as the owner to discourage mis behaviour.

Prevention is the best form of improving this scenario & like you said split the runs is as good as anything if doable. BAT is all well & good when can be applied consistently all throughout the day. That's no use when the dog is 8hrs on his own with the pup during work for example.
Over complication with dogs IMO is often the beginning of failure. Commands should be short & concise. Single sylabol & said with assertion. Consistancy is as key as anything also.

I don't knock your technique I just disagree with it. Whatever works for individuals works & fair play but working dogs have been working for 100s of years with handlers & I can bet ya there was no naughty step in all of those years....

As E-pointer said the younger dog won't be long learning who the boss is!

makescents

Im not suggesting for one second that a dogs brain works the same as a childs brain. I was simply using it as an analogy. Dogs strive for social inclusion be that human or dog dyadic so by using a 'naughty step' technique where the dog is being excluded from participation can work. The main thing is to not come home after the dogs have been left for 8/10 hours and find that one has ripped the other apart.
I completely agree that cues should be concise and short and consistency is the best policy.
Preventing the problem from happening by seperating the dogs is IMO just a short term fix (management of the problem) but the behaviour must be adjusted. Having two dogs in close proximity, seperated, can lead to an escalation of the behaviour and or the other dog becoming fearful and shutting down or becoming aggressive also.
We want to live in harmony with our dogs and one dog telling another dog to back off with a nip could very easily end up in a full blown fight with serious damage to one or both and if a human gets in the way to try and seperate, one or both of the dogs could redirect and then we have big trouble. Getting to the root of the behaviour should be the first priority and then changing the behaviour will lead to the dogs being comfortable around each other.
Knowing what is and isnt acceptable is key for the dog and owner bond. I made the presumption from the original post that this was a family home (as such) and the dogs were not 'working' working dogs but family pets, but I can guarantee you that even working dog handlers will seperate two fighting dogs and would not let them 'fight it out amongst themselves'.
Interesting topic though....

charlie10

i think the pup will come round and they will be alright i had a similar problem with my pointer and terrier and i just left them alone and they sorted it out. also since the op was in the hunting section i would suspect that it is a "working dog"????

EPointer=Birdss

First off the majority of working dogs double as family dogs. Actuall probably are more attended to than most pets as it's a genuine dog household as opposed to a fashion accessory.
You see the odds of a well exercised trained dog showing aggression within his own pack is remote. Furthermore in that hunting dogs have been bred for their hunting traits & not aggression. They are generally a very docile group of breeds once exercised. Same could be said for children
I cannot for a min see the older dog rip the other apart as dogs fighting to kill is generally to external dogs & even then rarely taken that far. Fighting internally is generally dominance. Once 1 gives in the other growls, holds them pinned by the neck or throat & they then retreat as the dominant one.
Now I don't for a second ever condone this behaviour & will always chastise the aggressor to let them know that it's not acceptable within the pack let alone in my company. The reality is that they see me as the alpha asserting my dominance. They can't comprehend why because they don't think rationally they think literally & respond to what's in front of them. They can only join so many dots.
I have 2 dogs in the one run. They have their order with the older the boss but puts up with a lot of crap from the younger at times. If they fought which they don't I'd have no trouble splitting them up & they categorically would not turn on me believe me. I can say that with confidence & experience.
What breeds do you out of curiosity?

kermitpwee

Thanks to all posters. The dogs are working dogs and if I am been honest I have never had a pet dog and never will. My dogs are treated very well but I use them for hunting end of story. I think I may have been worrying to much. The young dog is gone for a small operation and the older dog is now missing him a lot! My uncle insists that the pup is just playing and maybe this is the case I was just worried as the older dog is a once in a lifetime dog for me. I am sure it would never get to fighting as my older dog has never been aggressive towards another dog and in fact I have never seen a springer aggressive or fighting. Now I better man up and stop worrying:D

Bamanlou

the pup must be showing fantastic promise at eight months if your going to give him the snip, just wondering if this knocks the drive out of a dog . i have a 3 year old springer and a 6 mnt old springer pup and he done the usual playing and dragging out of the 3 yr old but gets put in his place when it gets too rough and cows down , i agree with what was said earlier , just keep it simple . dont over complicate .but ill tell you that if this pup does'nt make the grade he will be out the gap like a woodcock

kermitpwee

Bamanlou wrote: »

the pup must be showing fantastic promise at eight months if your going to give him the snip, just wondering if this knocks the drive out of a dog . i have a 3 year old springer and a 6 mnt old springer pup and he done the usual playing and dragging out of the 3 yr old but gets put in his place when it gets too rough and cows down , i agree with what was said earlier , just keep it simple . dont over complicate .but ill tell you that if this pup does'nt make the grade he will be out the gap like a woodcock

No he won't be getting the snip, wouldn't do it to myself so wont to the dog:D

Bamanlou

best of luck with him lad hope he turns out a cracker