Back Row Balance in RWC

little173

With Wallace ruled out injured, it would appear that the first choice back row is likely to be Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien. Although it does present a good amount of size, mobility and muscle but it does present a number of problems:

- A lack of genuine openside to focus on securing ruck ball and getting over opposition ball to slow it down
- Putting SOB at 7 restricts his movement as a ball carrier
- Lack of Lineout options which a taller 6 would give us

The option could be to put Ferris at 7 to free up SOB but he wouldnt have played lots of games in this position.
Does it matter anyway? The traditional 7 role has diminished somewhat with the new laws and SA won the 07 WC with Burger, Smith and Roussow, none of which were classic opensides. Same could be said of Moody/Haskell as the curent Eng 7 options.

Hagz

Although there will be a lot of noise about not having a ground-hog 7, I think SOB is just as capable of performing the role that Wallace was. Although having Wallace would be much better. I can't see Kidney going with Jennings, as much as I'd like him to, the back-row you put forward is most likely the starting one.

It is true that SOB's carrying ability is somewhat diminished when he's at 7, but it is still there to a degree. All he needs is to be passed to in a bit of space and who knows. He made a storming run against France at 7, so although they are rarer when he's at 7, they are still there.

SOB will never offer the same abilities as McCaw or Pocock, but he is still capable of a few turn-overs, and Heaslip has somewhat developed a skill in this area too.

As for Ferris at 6, he provides something different. A real hard edge. He is a demonic tackler. I would much prefer to stick Fez at 6 than 7, because as you said, he has little experience in the latter.

With regards to line-out options, Wallace hardly offered a greater jumping option, so a back-row of Fez, SOB, and Heaslip, shouldn't hurt us in that area any more than a SOB/Wallace/Heaslip. Australia don't exactly have great line-out operators at the back anyway.

In the greater scheme of things, it's a back-row that I, and many other people, have been dying to see. It could well be lethal.

We really only have a few options.

6 SOB, Ferris, Leamy, Ryan
7 Ferris, SOB, Jennings
8 Heaslip, SOB, Leamy

Aiming from left to right in order of ability and form in the positions listed. Jennings misses out because it's just so tough to displace either SOB or Ferris from the team in any position. However, against a team like Australia who will tear you asunder unless you slow them down at the breakdown, he could be invaluable.

That being said, I don't doubt that we will have Leamy on the bench with the starting back row as above for the big games. Going into a game with 4 guys who can play 6 and 8 and none that can actually excel in controlling the breakdown.

trackguy

It's the same problem we've had since Gleeson retired, although Simon Easterby at 6 was probably the closest we've had to a disruptive type of player at the breakdown since then.

SOB, Ferris, Heaslip is similar to Wallace, Ferris, Heaslip. Leamy does nothing to improve the ability at the breakdown.

It raises a few questions alright - if we get blown away by Australia, Kidney could be tempted to include Jennings for a possible quarter final with SA.

ChemOC

Heaslip is fairly handy on the ground why not have him at 7, SOB at 8 and Ferris at 6.

Heaslip is the weakest ball carrier of the three (and that's saying something). I can't see Deccie starting Jennings. So the question is how do you best fit in the above three? If you are going to reduce someone's ball carrying then it should be Heaslip. Not SOB.

JustinDee

Seriously, a problem perceived and blown way out of proportion.

The days of a 'breakaway' in the mould of Josh Kronfeld, the legendary Dave Wilson or George Smith are over. The first-up tackler cannot challenge once the tackle is made. They must keep hands off and make an effort to roll away. The second player to the breakdown can challenge and if not quick enough to ruck will be too late.

'Fetching' is no longer a solo-effort. It is a team effort. There is more to defence than just filling up the line when a tackle takes place. A good defensive line organises its stronger teams each phase. These teams are, in the event of tactics requiring turnovers instead of pressure soaking, formed each time to get the ball back. Doesn't matter what position they are. Their skillset will determine where they're desired to go in the line. One of the biggest turnover getters in the team is Jamie Heaslip. He's a nr.8 as you'll know.

People go on about Sean O'Brien not being able to do the job and then give examples of who is able to. Amongst those who can apparently exemplify how the best breakaways should play is the Sth African, Broussow.
This is a player who while partnering another legend on the flanks, Schalk Burger, was wiped off the park at almost every
breakdown by Sean O'Brien the last time they played each other.

There are ball-carriers, turnover grabbers and there are crunching tacklers in the squad. What makes them effective is aggressive accuracy. Not having some label as a 'groundhog' or a 'fetcher'.

trackguy

ChemOC wrote: »

Heaslip is fairly handy on the ground why not have him at 7, SOB at 8 and Ferris at 6.

Heaslip is the weakest ball carrier of the three (and that's saying something). I can't see Deccie starting Jennings. So the question is how do you best fit in the above three? If you are going to reduce someone's ball carrying then it should be Heaslip. Not SOB.

Heaslip hasn't been at his best for about a year - I think he came back way too soon from the ankle injury and hasn't been firing on all cylinders since then.

That said, he is still invaluable and still the best no.8 by quite a margin. It's not just explosiveness off the base that you need at 8, it's a cool head and good decision making too.

Batigol

Hagz wrote: »

In the greater scheme of things, it's a back-row that I, and many other people, have been dying to see. It could well be lethal.

+1

Specifically, I would love to see Ferris, SOB at 7 and Heaslip when we take on Rocky the Aussies. It would just (on paper anyway) be epic
Kidney can swap them around, limit their game time and try to avoid injuries until that game if needs be.

smurphy29

trackguy wrote: »

Heaslip hasn't been at his best for about a year - I think he came back way too soon from the ankle injury and hasn't been firing on all cylinders since then.

That said, he is still invaluable and still the best no.8 by quite a margin. It's not just explosiveness off the base that you need at 8, it's a cool head and good decision making too.

He looked pretty good at the sharp end of the Heineken Cup. He was immense in the semi-final against Toulouse and outstanding in the final. Admittedly, he's been ordinary enough in the green shirt in both the 6 Nations and the warm-up games.

bamboozle

smurphy29 wrote: »

He looked pretty good at the sharp end of the Heineken Cup. He was immense in the semi-final against Toulouse and outstanding in the final. Admittedly, he's been ordinary enough in the green shirt in both the 6 Nations and the warm-up games.

Heaslip was rushed back into playing after injuring his ankle away to Clermont, he took a few months to recover his form.

shuffol

I think SOB will work better at 7 than people think. Having Fez at 6 will take a of pressure off his carrying. His recent performances at 7 havent been overly eye catching but those were in a backrow with McLaughlin and Heaslip for Leinster and most recently Ryan and Leamy. Fez is a much better ball carrier than any of those so it'll take pressure off SOB. Heaslip hasnt been carrying the ball with the same aggression as he was a year ago.

I'd like to see Heaslip taking on more of a roaming role in defence, tracking the ball but making less first up tackles, he's by far the best player in the country at the breakdown. Likewise in attack too his clear out work is immense. It is a fearsome backrow when you think of all the skills they bring to the table, it could be our trump card in a lot of games if Kidney can use them effectively, problem is the best skills of the players wont necessarily correspond with the number on their back.

Considering its safe to assume the backrow will be Ferris, SOB and Heaslip who do peope think will get the bench spot, surely in the name of balance it'd have to be Jennings.

rockman15

When we play against the Wallabies we really are going to get sacked at the breakdown. Anyone who has watched S15 over the past two years will tell you what Pocock is capable of doing at a ruck. He's only rivalled by Brussow. The NH hasnt produced a top quality fetcher 7 since Martyn Williams. SOB is a 6 who frequently competes well at breakdowns, winning the ball in the process. The same can be said for Drico, Healy or Best. That said if we play SOB or any of the others there at 7 we would loose a lot of the other attributes they bring to other areas of the park. I'm afraid to say playing SOB at 7 removes him from carrying to the gain line in whatever attack system DK has decided on. His best carries in a green shirt have all come from 6.

We need a true fetching 7 on that field against australia to break down their quick ball and generally just be a pain in the arse to Genia. On the evidence presented in the warm-ups DK wants the 2nd or 3rd man to the breakdown to do this. It hasnt worked as there is a required and practised manner in how to do this and get away with it (see McCaw). Leamy attempts it, but gets caught everytime. Healy was pulled up against England. We have coughed up to many penalties by being exceptionally blatent in slowing down opposition ball over the last 5 games and it has worked to our detriment, rather than gain.

mrboswell

JustinDee wrote: »

Seriously, a problem perceived and blown way out of proportion.

The days of a 'breakaway' in the mould of Josh Kronfeld, the legendary Dave Wilson or George Smith are over. The first-up tackler cannot challenge once the tackle is made. They must keep hands off and make an effort to roll away. The second player to the breakdown can challenge and if not quick enough to ruck will be too late.

Have you seen what NZ have been getting up to in tackles they make? Watch how they get themselves on the wrong side, release, stand up and compete for the ball. They are getting away with it because it is legal and the opposition are too slow in supporting the ball carrier.

Having a quick 7 to get in there is a must, just as it always was. You just need to be quick.

cartoonninja

Firstly, heaslip should stay at 8 he controls the ball so well at the back of scrums wether we're goin backwards or not, as someone already said there more than just stroming runs to being a worldclass 8 not to say o brien wont be.

As for the lineout would we really be weaken?. Heaslip is useful in the lineout , and I seem to rememeber o brien taken a few off our own lineout against england. Whats the story on ferris's knee can he still jump without affecting it? I hear he has no cartilage left, (pity he couldnt buy some more!) but hes a big man and useful in the lineout.

I tink jennings should bench just for balance reasons, we're gunna miss wallace though!

matthew8

I think Heaslip, O'Brien and Jennings should be the starting backrow. I don't underrate Ferris but Jennings is seriously underrated and these guys worked very well last year for Leinster. Jennings and Cullen (mentioned because he was also a tiger) have never been given a chance at Ireland.

Podge_irl

A backrow of Ferris SOB Heaslip gets our best players on the pitch. Of those three Heaslip probably has the closest skillset to an openside really, but there is no way he's moving from 8. Would be complete insanity not to have Jennings on the bench imo. Leamy is a worse 6 then Ferris and SOB, so if he comes on it will likely be at 8 or 7, neither of which he excels at.

The decision may well be taken out of Kidney's hands if Ferris breaks again though

decisions

Id love to see
6-Ferris
8-SOB
7-Heaslip

But Heaslip does a great job at the back of the scrum so.. it wont happen.

trackguy

Podge_irl wrote: »

A backrow of Ferris SOB Heaslip gets our best players on the pitch. Of those three Heaslip probably has the closest skillset to an openside really, but there is no way he's moving from 8. Would be complete insanity not to have Jennings on the bench imo. Leamy is a worse 6 then Ferris and SOB, so if he comes on it will likely be at 8 or 7, neither of which he excels at.

The decision may well be taken out of Kidney's hands if Ferris breaks again though

Going by original selection of the squad, Jennings could well be last in the pecking order, behind D Ryan and Leamy.

As I've said, a bad game against Australia could lead to a change in this thinking.

I hope Deccie gives Jennings a chance against USA to show what he can do.

Podge_irl

trackguy wrote: »

Going by original selection of the squad, Jennings could well be last in the pecking order, behind D Ryan and Leamy.

Doesn't always work that way though. Look at Easterby for the Lions or any other myriad examples. Jennings was undoubtedly behind Wallace, but that's about all the selection tells us. Leamy and Ryan are both truly awful cover for a Ferris/SOB/Heaslip backrow.

trackguy

Podge_irl wrote: »

Doesn't always work that way though. Look at Easterby for the Lions or any other myriad examples. Jennings was undoubtedly behind Wallace, but that's about all the selection tells us. Leamy and Ryan are both truly awful cover for a Ferris/SOB/Heaslip backrow.

Agreed but the Lions is slightly different, given there can be little learned from the manager's previous selections.

Kidney has shown little or no interest in Jennings previously. He seems to prefer Leamy or Ryan. They are obviously different kinds of players to Jennings but even that might not count that much in Jennings favour.

Kidney doesn't seem to favour Jenning's skillset.

Podge_irl

trackguy wrote: »

Kidney doesn't seem to favour Jenning's skillset.

No he doesn't. Nor do I particularly blame him following the France game. But he's had Jennings on the bench in 6N games before. What you look for in a sub can be different from what you look for in a starter too. With Ferris and SOB already on the pitch I just don't see what Leamy offers bar injury cover. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Kidney only wanted injury cover on the bench either.

trackguy

Podge_irl wrote: »

No he doesn't. Nor do I particularly blame him following the France game. But he's had Jennings on the bench in 6N games before. What you look for in a sub can be different from what you look for in a starter too. With Ferris and SOB already on the pitch I just don't see what Leamy offers bar injury cover. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Kidney only wanted injury cover on the bench either.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

shuffol

It woudnt surprise me to see Leamy on the bench, afterall Leamy has started a couple of games for Ireland at 7 under Kidney so he obviously feels he can do a job there. Also dont forget Kidney selected Leamy on the bench in the AI's against NZ and S.A ahead of SOB despite the fact that SOB covers 6,7,8 and was the form player in the country.

Podge_irl

shuffol wrote: »

It woudnt surprise me to see Leamy on the bench, afterall Leamy has started a couple of games for Ireland at 7 under Kidney so he obviously feels he can do a job there.

Pretty sure Leamy has only played the one game at 7 for Ireland - his debut against Italy - and that was under EOS.

shuffol

He definately started there against Fiji in 09 but went off injured near half time. Pretty sure it was Fiji.

JustinDee

mrboswell wrote: »

Have you seen what NZ have been getting up to in tackles they make? Watch how they get themselves on the wrong side, release, stand up and compete for the ball. They are getting away with it because it is legal and the opposition are too slow in supporting the ball carrier.

Having a quick 7 to get in there is a must, just as it always was. You just need to be quick.

First of all, overrunning the ruck and taking out opposition is NOT legal.
There is plenty pace in the Irish backrow options. Knowing when to commit to a ruck and when to accurately pack fringe and line is the skill required.

Podge_irl

shuffol wrote: »

He definately started there against Fiji in 09 but went off injured near half time. Pretty sure it was Fiji.

So he did, I apologise. Still not very good at it though.

MaryKing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Doesn't always work that way though. Look at Easterby for the Lions or any other myriad examples. Jennings was undoubtedly behind Wallace, but that's about all the selection tells us. Leamy and Ryan are both truly awful cover for a Ferris/SOB/Heaslip backrow.

The last time Jennings was in an Ireland matchday 22, he was the only unused sub. Even Paddy Wallace got a run out that day.

Denis Leamy's only two starts at 7 were againt USA & Japan - his first two caps. His next game was No. 8 sub against New Zealand. Most of his caps are at No. 8.


Edit: Got that wrong. His third cap (start) was against New Zealand at 7 - Anthony Foley was the No. 8.

mrboswell

JustinDee wrote: »

First of all, overrunning the ruck and taking out opposition is NOT legal.
There is plenty pace in the Irish backrow options. Knowing when to commit to a ruck and when to accurately pack fringe and line is the skill required.

Do you mean knowing when to commit to a ruck in terms of counter rucking?

I'm talking about competing for the ball prior to the formation of the ruck
As the tackler are you not are entitled to compete for the ball so long as you have released and are on your feet. What NZ seem to be doing is landing on the wrong side but standing up and over the tackled player and competing for the ball. As far as I'm aware thats ok. I must check it in the rules section but they seem to be getting away with it.
EDIT: come to think of it I've noticed that it only seems to happen with 2 tacklers and they may claim the tackler is the one on the right side...


I previously asked a question in the rules section about players rucking past the ball and taking out players and some of the refs there said they though it was ok so long as it kept the game going fast.

Yea there is plenty of pace but if you want to steal ball at a ruck you have to be there and like many good 7's its the "smaller" guys that seem to get the better body position and win the ball on a regular basis.

Anyway back to the balance issue - We do have good options with ball carrying and I'm not saying that those lads can't win ball but it seems like years since we have had a real 7. We could always do with better link play anyway. I think it would bring a good addition to our game.

Podge_irl

MaryKing wrote: »

Denis Leamy's only two starts at 7 were againt USA & Japan - his first two caps. His next game was No. 8 sub against New Zealand. Most of his caps are at No. 8.

He's definitely played 7 against Italy in the 6N and against Fiji in the AIs in 09.

Most of his caps are indeed at 8, and while his second best position not one he's all that strong in. He's a 6 and nothing else really.

MaryKing

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's definitely played 7 against Italy in the 6N and against Fiji in the AIs in 09.

Most of his caps are indeed at 8, and while his second best position not one he's all that strong in. He's a 6 and nothing else really.

In the 6Ns of '09 he was an unused sub against Italy.

He did play at 7 against Fiji in the AIs. The following week he played at 6 against Samoa.

Versatility get you into a world cup squad.

Shane Jennings used to play a fair bit at 6 when Keith Gleeson was at Leinster.

sock puppet

Podge_irl wrote: »

Doesn't always work that way though. Look at Easterby for the Lions or any other myriad examples. Jennings was undoubtedly behind Wallace, but that's about all the selection tells us. Leamy and Ryan are both truly awful cover for a Ferris/SOB/Heaslip backrow.

He's gone for Leamy on the bench before leaving us without proper 7 cover. Don't see why he wouldn't do it again.

Podge_irl

MaryKing wrote: »

In the 6Ns of '09 he was an unused sub against Italy.

He did play at 7 against Fiji in the AIs. The following week he played at 6 against Samoa.

Versatility get you into a world cup squad.

It was the 05 6N that he played against Italy at no.7. He was fairly poor and didn't play again for some time.

He doesn't have versatility though. He may have played at 7 and 8 before, but that's like saying Buckley can cover both sides of the scrum because he's played at 1 before. He's not a top class 7 by any stretch of the imagination and only a middling 8. He's a very good 6 but two of them are going to be starting games so I don't see the sense in having him on the bench (though I expect it to happen).

It's like 07 all over again with a backrow overflowing with 6s.

Podge_irl

sock puppet wrote: »

He's gone for Leamy on the bench before leaving us without proper 7 cover. Don't see why he wouldn't do it again.

I expect him to do it alright, but this situation is somewhat different. Not only do we not have 7 cover with Leamy on the bench, we don't really have a 7 starting either.

blackdog2

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's like 07 all over again with a backrow overflowing with 6s.

"We all dream of a team of number sixes, team of number sixes, team of number sixes"

to the tune of yellow submarine

shuffol

blackdog2 wrote: »

"We all dream of a team of number sixes, team of number sixes, team of number sixes"

to the tune of yellow submarine

If the number six in question is Sean O'Brien we sure do

JustinDee

mrboswell wrote: »

Yea there is plenty of pace but if you want to steal ball at a ruck you have to be there and like many good 7's its the "smaller" guys that seem to get the better body position and win the ball on a regular basis.

Anyway back to the balance issue - We do have good options with ball carrying and I'm not saying that those lads can't win ball but it seems like years since we have had a real 7. We could always do with better link play anyway. I think it would bring a good addition to our game.

Like I said, the players you're looking for are already there. Thats why Heaslip, for example, has as high as tackle and turnover rate in certain games and yardage in others and O'Brien has absolutely whalloped apparently world-class opensides out of a game. Its not a case of painting-by-numbers anymore (defensive flanker, 8th man and 'fetcher')

little173

JustinDee wrote: »

Like I said, the players you're looking for are already there. Thats why Heaslip, for example, has as high as tackle and turnover rate in certain games and yardage in others and O'Brien has absolutely whalloped apparently world-class opensides out of a game. Its not a case of painting-by-numbers anymore (defensive flanker, 8th man and 'fetcher')

I think this is true in the main, as I said SA won a world cup with no openside, and France are playing Harinordinquoy at 7 at the weekend. The old smaller 7, scavenger thing is pretty dated in rugby tactics now.

In any case, we have to play to our strengths, we dont have a Pocock or McCaw and Jennings really is not in that league especially at this stage of his career. Leamy and Ryan are pretty sub standard replacements as well at top class level, so heres hoping for no more injuries.

mrboswell

JustinDee wrote: »

Like I said, the players you're looking for are already there. Thats why Heaslip, for example, has as high as tackle and turnover rate in certain games and yardage in others and O'Brien has absolutely whalloped apparently world-class opensides out of a game. Its not a case of painting-by-numbers anymore (defensive flanker, 8th man and 'fetcher')

I hear you. Heaslip is actually more of a fetcher than the other 2 but both Ferris and SOB are very strong ball carriers. We still have to see what SOB will be like after a few games at 7 at this level, particularly like to see him against Pocock.

JustinDee

little173 wrote: »

I think this is true in the main, as I said SA won a world cup with no openside

Schalk Burger is an openside flanker. They also played Van Heerden there too.
Springboks defensive flanker is 7 and openside is 6.

twinytwo

the way i see it, heaslip and SOB wont be benched against any of the bigger teams.

therefore
6 SOB
7 Jennings
8 Healsip

With ferris on the bench. after say 60 mins or whatvever u can take off any of the Backrow and bring on the man beast that is ferris.

That said kidney has to actually use all our fecking subs rather than just rog.

little173

JustinDee wrote: »

Schalk Burger is an openside flanker. They also played Van Heerden there too.
Springboks defensive flanker is 7 and openside is 6.

I think Burger is a classic case of being a hybrid modern flanker - selcted at 6 - which as you say is SA openside but has the flexibility to undertake different roles on the pitch, could easily play blind or 8. I think in many ways our backrow need to do the same thing but it will take time to blend the 3 guys and get that understanding. Getting go forward still remains crucial and to that end SOB is our trump card so freeing him up for this will be important.

ionadnapokot

JustinDee wrote: »

Like I said, the players you're looking for are already there. Thats why Heaslip, for example, has as high as tackle and turnover rate in certain games and yardage in others and O'Brien has absolutely whalloped apparently world-class opensides out of a game. Its not a case of painting-by-numbers anymore (defensive flanker, 8th man and 'fetcher')

Great posts going back and forth there lads.Really enjoyed them. Completely Agree with justindee. Its not about the number on the back of the jersey anymore. Those days are long gone. GHenry and RDeans have been saying that for at least the past couple of years. Henry in particular has been espousing how the loose forwards play a different role defensively and a different role on attack. Deans recently defended his decision not to bring Matt Hodgson as a back-up for Pocock. "That's a reflection of very much how the game's evolving, how the game's being played and being adjudicated," he said.

You must be either a ref or a back-row because you have a brilliant understanding of the breakdown! Finally an article has appeared in the media dealing with the breakdown, scrum and the nuances of the rules. It has taken a former player though, Frankie Sheahan, to educate us. In the Sunday Indo he highlighted the illegality of what NZ have been doing at the breakdown. They clear out ahead of the ball and then intentionally holding the cleared-out player, preventing him from defending. Very hard to Ref and as boswell pointed out they usually arrive at the breakdown and tackle in pairs.

kennedmc

decisions wrote: »

Id love to see
6-Ferris
8-SOB
7-Heaslip

But Heaslip does a great job at the back of the scrum so.. it wont happen.

I'd like to see this too. If we are to do anything in this world cup it is imperative that these 3 are on the pitch as much as possible.

Heaslip is such a good player who can do a good job at 7 (the best of those 3). SOB is a good footballer and his explosiveness at 8 would be great considering how we are struggling for line breaks elsewhere - why not get your best ball carrier on the ball as much as possible. Double mark him and there is space for others.


given Jamie hasn't been at his best it may be good to try something different. All these players are top class back rowers so I don't see a problem with doing something like this, even at the world cup.

Hagz

kennedmc wrote: »

I'd like to see this too. If we are to do anything in this world cup it is imperative that these 3 are on the pitch as much as possible.

Heaslip is such a good player who can do a good job at 7 (the best of those 3). SOB is a good footballer and his explosiveness at 8 would be great considering how we are struggling for line breaks elsewhere - why not get your best ball carrier on the ball as much as possible. Double mark him and there is space for others.


given Jamie hasn't been at his best it may be good to try something different. All these players are top class back rowers so I don't see a problem with doing something like this, even at the world cup.

No thanks. I don't think Jamie is the best of those three at 7. In fact, I've never seen him play 7. I have seen him play 8 though, and he's pretty good at it, so I think we should keep him there.

twinytwo

Hagz wrote: »

No thanks. I don't think Jamie is the best of those three at 7. In fact, I've never seen him play 7. I have seen him play 8 though, and he's pretty good at it, so I think we should keep him there.

The same can be said for SOB at 6... there in lies the problem though.. can we afford to have a player the calibre of ferris not playing?

Hagz

twinytwo wrote: »

The same can be said for SOB at 6... there in lies the problem though.. can we afford to have a player the calibre of ferris not playing?

Basically someone's got to go to 7. So, we can keep our best 6 and best 8, and shift Ferris to 7 (which I wouldn't mind), or we can put the best 7 out of the 3 of them to 7, which would be SOB.

I'm happy with either of those options. Not that I'm against SOB at 8, it's more to do with being against Heaslip at 7.

danthefan

twinytwo wrote: »

The same can be said for SOB at 6... there in lies the problem though.. can we afford to have a player the calibre of ferris not playing?

In my opinion, absolutely not. And the fact he'll spend his game hitting it up the middle and hitting rucks could free up SOB a bit too.

The backrow, imo, has to be Ferris/SOB/Heaslip. No, SOB doesn't seem to have been as good at 7 than at 6, but there's a huge drop in quality from those three down to Jennings and Leamy.

WeeBushy

danthefan wrote: »

In my opinion, absolutely not. And the fact he'll spend his game hitting it up the middle and hitting rucks could free up SOB a bit too.

The backrow, imo, has to be Ferris/SOB/Heaslip. No, SOB doesn't seem to have been as good at 7 than at 6, but there's a huge drop in quality from those three down to Jennings and Leamy.

I agree, its not ideal having O'Brien at 7 but you can't leave Ferris on the bench (if fit) with Jennings/Leamy starting. Even with SOB playing out of position it is by far our strongest back row. I still want to see Jennings start at 7 in a couple of games, however. We have no other back rows like him in the squad, and he offers something different.

Gordon Gecko

I think the gap between 6 and 7 has been hugely overstated here, especially given that the current breakdown rules have rendered the traditional ground hugging opensides dinosaurs. SOB is a professional and versatile player for whom playing at 7 poses no problems. And even if there is a certain rustiness for him in the opening games I feel that will be far outweighed by the benefits of him and Messrs. Heaslip and Ferris tearing it up in the loose.

andrewdcs

We'll have lock/back row and backrow cover on the bench, but as below, Ferris, Heaslip, SOB just leaps out at you as obvious. Refs are being hammered to let games flow i.e. the second tackler and not necessarily a 7 is going to have to throw themselves on the ball, the window is about 1/2 a second, so its really physical tacklers and handy carriers we need. Its a 3 no.8s game if the refereeing is as it was in some of the 3 nations.

Can't remember ottofh but dont french clubs switch 6/7 around a lot, not really worry about a "traditional" 7>?