Hated for being a Catholic

LegacyUser

Before I get into detail here let me say I am NOT seeking a debate on religion or politics. I am looking for personal advice from someone who has maybe been in a similar situation or understands where I'm coming from.


I've been with my fiancé for over 5 years. He is the perfect man for me. I have no complaints with him.

We met, lived and worked in a Muslim country for the first few years moving home to Ireland continuing to work with our company in the Republic more recently. I am from the rural south. He is from Northern Ireland.

I am like most Irish people raised as Catholic. I go to Mass occasionally, mostly for funerals/weddings. I'm not a very religious person at all and wouldn't say religion plays any important part in my life, but I wouldn't call myself anti-religion or an atheist either.

I'm a very tolerant person, as is my partner. Having lived in a Muslim country, we are both open minded and easy going when it comes to religion.

My fiancé comes from Northern Ireland, and he is from a Protestant background. In the time we were together abroad, he never expressed interest in any religious matters and it hasn't seemingly had an effect on his life.

Since both returning to live and work in Ireland, it has become necessary to visit his family and meet his friends quite regularly, he likes to see them most weekends, as he goes home to help out with the family business, and if I want to see him over the weekend, it is necessary for me to go with him. I had no qualms with this, as my own parents have passed away and I don't have siblings or many friends where we are based.

The first couple of visits to his hometown in N.I. were okay, but then things went rapidly downhill.

I had previously met some of his friends/family briefly, but now that my fiancé and I plan to marry, everything seems to be different. They know we are for life.

Everywhere we go, I am asked my religion. I am asked about religious beliefs/outlooks. The topic is ALWAYS religion when I am present. Every relation who enters the house, it's hello, your name, and religion greeted by a very negative attitude. I am treated warmly and feel very welcome until the news that I am Catholic comes out.

As time has passed, many nasty traits have become evident from people in his life. I have now learned that his mother 'detests' Catholics, my fiancé's young sisters told me this recently after two of them were banned from seeing or talking to Catholics. I have always felt quite unwelcome by his mother, but I now feel as though I have leprosy when I enter her home.

This is all complicated by the fact that we had planned to move to his hometown and he has almost completed having a house built in his hometown. I now realise I really don't think I can be part of this environment, ever. I have discussed this with my fiancé but his attitude is '**** them, it's none of their business'. I agreed with him to a point, but now it's really beginning to upset me every new day I spend around them.

Not everybody is a problem. His father is a loving open-minded man who has abandoned the Protestant Church after seeing some of what has happened in the area due to religious intolerance. My fiancé has two brothers who are wonderful, friendly characters. They have never made me feel anything other than welcome and at home in their town.

But both of my fiancé's brothers have Protestant girlfriends who openly look down on me, and treat me differently to anyone who is from the same religious background to them. It is always done slyly, never in front of their boyfriends so no-one can stand up for me.
It is extremely hurtful, I never considered myself to be a sensitive person, but I was treated with respect in a Muslim country and now, because I wasn't baptised into the same denomination as them, I am not worthy of socialising with them or being involved in the same tasks.

I know his mother is deeply unhappy about him marrying a Catholic and I have gone to several religious services with my boyfriend in the hopes that relations would improve with his mother but she ignores it [and me] completely. She has on multiple occasions begged him not to be involved with a Catholic but he told her it was none of her own business and she needed to open her mind and stop judging someone based on religion.

In my boyfriend's social group of life long friends, the men seem to have got past the religious differences and while it is still regularly brought up in conversations, ("So and so down the road is such an a$$hole, he's a Catholic.") they are okay, they have decided that I'm 'different to all the rest' and are quite nice to me now, but their girlfriends are still extremely uninviting, and downright cruel. They seem to think that Catholics are of a different social class and treat me in the same manner that I have seen people in the Republic treat travellers or non-nationals.

They will arrange to do something just for the girls on a Sunday when I am sitting beside them but they never ever include or invite me, they will leave me out of rounds if we are all in the pub, they will never converse with me and if I attempt to speak to them they will pretend not to hear. Two have told me outright that they do not have any interest in my "type".

I am my wits end now after another weekend of overhearing remarks from these girls.

I could even go and join their church but it wouldn't make any difference because apparently the problem is my 'breeding'.


Contrary to what I would have expected, this doesn't seem to be a political thing, it really is a fixation on religion and a belief that because I have been baptised into the Catholic Church, my outlook and views on every little thing in life must be different, that I can never be the same as them.

My fiancé has been as supportive as possible, he has had a word with most of the people involved [though he hasn't bothered with the girlfriends of his friends admitting they are downright nasty and unchangeable] but the only hope he offers is that they will get used to me when I'm around them full time when we live there, and the religion issues will get forgotten about.

I just don't see that happening, and expect I will have a very sad and lonely life if we go ahead to live in Northern Ireland. I am concerned this could be a breaking point in our relationship. It was the plan all along that he would return home with experience and take over the family business as his parents are getting on, I was happy with this plan as I had no idea what I was getting involved with.

Has anyone been in a situation like this? I know that not all of N.I. is like this, it is one particular area where a certain attitude seems to have developed, but if anyone can offer any advice I'd appreciate it.

nesbitt

Whilst I have not experienced life in NI. I did live with religious bigotry in Glasgow for 5 years in the 90's. As a contemporary Dubliner never having really thought about religion I was ignorant about religious bigotry. I had to wake up very quickly for my own safety. Some of the behaviour was as you describe subtle and then quite hurtful people talking about 'stinking' catholics as if I was not in the room.

I encountered it at work, personal life, and when dealing with shops and services. Unless you have ever encountered this type of discrimination it is hard to describe really.

I note from your post OP that you are expected to settle and basically share your partners life in this environment. It is alot to expect of you to just 'ignore' it.

I can relate OP. The real question is can you 'live' like this or will it untimately be the demise of the relationship.

tallaghtmick

Why cant you just say you are of no religion?more than likely you will be asked what you where born to but you can easily say you denounced your catholicism a few years ago.

I am a friend

I had the same problem while working and living up the north and absolutely despise the place.

It will never change - the mentality up there is entrenched and it will wear you down. Can I ask what field you work in? To me it was apparent that the higher up the professional ladder you were, the more you were of interest to them / accepted by them.

Can you two not choose to live elsewhere? life is too short to have to deal with that trash.

As for the above suggestion to pretend you are not catholic, what the ....???

nesbitt

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Why cant you just say you are of no religion?more than likely you will be asked what you where born to but you can easily say you denounced your catholicism a few years ago.

It would be great if it were that simple. If you say that you are not any religion, they want to know what religion you were 'born' into! You see you must be labelled as to what religion you 'are'. Abstaining does not compute with religious bigots. You are either one or 'the other'...

mikemac

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Why cant you just say you are of no religion?

If you don't state your religion they ask about what school you went to.
Like a CBS or for the OP, a Convent school. Subtle the way they ask and try to figure you out though there are blatant about it with OP

As you say yourself this only goes on in pockets of NI but it's still there

Tell the bitchy girls to go to hell, as that's where they are going :pac:

pow wow

Has your fiance spoken to his dad about it? Given that they both sound like reasonable guys who have no issue with your religion they might be the best people to try and resolve the issue on your behalf. I know you said you've spoken to your fiance about it and whilst the 'fcuk em' attitude is supportive, it doesn't deal with the practicalities of the situation you're in and how excluded you feel. Much as you may feel it, this isn't really about religion as such, but more what being Catholic represents to them. They obviously live a somewhat insular lifestyle (is the town itself heavily Protestant?) and it's disappointingly usual for both communities to be remote of each other even if they live close by. The jibes from his friends are more to do with their upbringing and environment than anything to do with you personally. You are all Christians, regardless of which church you go to.

This is something that really needs to be resolved sooner rather than later and I think your fiance is the man to do it (with or without his father). If it continues how will the wedding be, how will his family treat any children you have? I know more than my fair share of friends in similar situations in the North who face difficulties with one another's families accepting their relationships, and many have cut ties with their families because of it. If your fiance wants your marriage to work (and have you move back with him) he needs to step up to the plate with his family/friends. Given the apparent unwillingness of his mother to warm to the idea it may be a battle that doesn't have a happy ending in the short-term.

Personally no-one ever asked me what religion I was (perhaps the accent decided it for them) but the divisions are so very deep that they can be difficult to understand until you really live them. It sounds like you have two good men on your side and I hope with time and discussion they'll warm up to you as much as they should to the woman marrying their son/brother/friend. I'm certainly rooting for you!

Feel free to PM me any time if you want to chat.

tatabubbly

Faced this myself in college, mainly cos I was up there around the 12th and living up there. Umpteen questions about where I was from and what not..

I was in a highly Protestant area and was told by some nice old lady in tesco not to hang about the town in that fortnight because she'd worry about my safety, mainly because of my donegal accent!

Couldn't believe that educated people with doctorates would make so much of a big deal about it!

All I can say is hold your head up, you sound like a lovely person and hopefully they will get over it!

Neyite

OP, I would suggest you and your husband to be seriously think about where you want to live.

It is clearly not sustainable for you to live amongst such hatred, and distance from the less friendly members of his family would do you both good. When the house is finished, consider putting it on the market and moving to a more neutral area, where you and him (and any children you may have) get to be happy.

As for his friends, ditto. In a neutral area you both can make friends that respect you both and value your friendship. You should not have to spend a minute of time around those horrible nasty women.

His mother might cop on a bit when he tells her he is moving with you and why, but I doubt she will change much. I have a family member in the north, (catholic) and living in a supposedly loyalist area, however its not really and they have not encountered any bigotry.

I would place love above location or friendships any day of the week.

LegacyUser

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Why cant you just say you are of no religion?more than likely you will be asked what you where born to but you can easily say you denounced your catholicism a few years ago.

It doesn't work like that unfortunately. They are never satisfied with 'atheism' or such.

As someone extremely naive who has married into a similar situation [from the Republic, married to Protestant who lived in Loyalist area] I used this option all the time in the early days and it didn't help me at all, instead they wanted to know what religion my parents were, my grandparents, were there any protestants in my heritage, if I said yes it was followed by questions such as where did they go to school, what were their surnames, where did they come from, they were determined to 'catch me out'. I have never seen anything as pathetic in all my life, given whichever 'side' you are on, we are both Christian and have very similar beliefs. When using my married name, they always needed to know my maiden name, just to 'check' what my background was, and having a common Irish surname, the religion question would always follow within seconds of hearing my name. Often I heard "Oh... you're not catholic, are you??" with fear in their voice.

It affected where I could get jobs and held me back hugely when the 'news' came out.

A couple of times, I got away with saying I was a Protestant [someone who converted to be a protestant wasn't good enough, you had to be born one, your grand parents had to be born into that religion] and to be honest, I regretted it, having to sit there hearing them say 'thank god you're not one of those dirty xxxxx like most of them down south' and such, it disgusted me to hear them refer to the entire population of the republic like that.


OP, I don't really have any positive advice for you other than prepare yourself to put up with that attitude for as long as you spend any time in N.I.

My husband had a similar attitude to yours, '**** them, it's only religion' but it's different with men, these things don't upset them in the same way, and the underhand nasty subtle jibes from the women were never done in front of him or any of the men in the group either.


I don't see things changing, ever. What I did find was that we eventually made some Catholic friends up there who all welcomed my husband without any problems, and we socialised with them a lot more in the later years. I never once saw any hint of religious bigotry amongst them.


We finally got out of the place 2 years ago and moved back to the south and everything has been perfect since. I wouldn't wish the place on my worst enemy!

Alopex

they won't change trust me. Certain Prods think they're the superior whites and catholics inferior blacks. They think you're subhuman. He will have to make new friends. my dad is an Ulster Protestant and my mum a Dublin Protestant. Told me there was a lot of "is she an RC?" at the beginning. She has a northern accent I believe she changed hers over this because my uncles and aunts on that side all sound pure Dub

LegacyUser

Alopex wrote: »

they won't change trust me. Certain Prods think they're the superior whites and catholics inferior blacks. They think you're subhuman.

This is exactly how my husband [a Protestant] put it to me also when I told him about the abuse I was getting.

A lot of prods feel they are far superior to Catholics and were looking at me as being from a totally different class, treating me like a beggar on the street even though I had equal credentials to them, purely because of the religious denomination my people chose to follow, something I didn't choose for me, nor did I care if I never set foot in any church again, but that didn't matter to them, I was bad breeding and that was that.

jimmycrackcorm

Coming from a border area, I can fully understand what you mean op. Things have changed a lot but there still is this backward view in increasingly isolated pockets. I'd nearly bet that your fiance is from somewhere in Antrim based on some of the people I know.

Much of the problem is a lack of exposure to people from a different background. If you don't let it get to you and treat people kindly then they will eventually begin to see you for you and less as a labelled catholic. You have seen this with his friends; as for their girlfriends, it's more a case of how women are very bitchy in any case but they'll eventually cop on.

As for his mother, well she's a different kettle of fish. Her generation have too much difficulty in changing.

You will have a problem when it comes eventually to children and what religion they will be brought up as.

LegacyUser

Don't envy you at all OP.

A couple of years ago I worked for a company that bought a lot of their goods from NI. We got invited to a business event they were running up North and jumped at the chance to attend.

Here's me a nieve Dub not thinking in a million years that I or any of my work colleagues were going to be treated like dirt.

The evening started off tense and went further downhill when they started getting jarred. Then the snide remarks started coming fast and furious. It was a couple of years ago but an evening that still sticks out in my head. I honestly felt under threat, made my excuses and left as quickly as possible.

Strangely enough the older people that were there weren't really interested but the bigoted comments were coming from the younger ones.

As others have said they wont change but if you don't speak up for yourself they will keep walking all over you.

Good luck.

GAAman

I have been living in the north for six years now, and before i lived here i had a girlfriend from tyrone, i have encountered many people like the ones you describe and could tell you many stories.

But what it all boils down to is this, these people will NEVER change unless they want to. And i would not hold my breath on that ever happening if i were you. You will ALWAYS be seen as an outsider and this sort of mindset will only be bred out, that is to say generations down the line wont care anymore.

You have two options as i see it, tell your fiance that you would never feel comfortable in that situation (esp living anywhere near them) and work something else out or call time on the relationship. I dont mean that (and it shouldnt seem) like a "pick me or your family" type untimatium but make him see that if there is to be a future between you, BOTH of you should be happy.

Think forward as well, if you two have kids what happens then? You should tell them that they are welcome to visit YOUR home, so long as they leave their prejudices and bitterness at THEIR home

LegacyUser

hi op, that sounds like an absolute nightmare. i had tears in my eyes as i read it though, cause i'm in a very similar situation to you, but here in the south of ireland.

my husband's family are very staunchly and also very hipocritically catholic, where as i come from a church of ireland family. and even though they know i don't have any personal 'religion' or whatever i'm regularly talked about quite openly as 'the prod'. his mother especially makes the most ignorant remarks right in front of me about dirty english protestants and such like while i sit there and grin to keep the peace. regardless of how ignorant and hateful and hurtful they are, they're still my husband's parents. they are so backward though they don't even realise the difference between 'english' and 'protestant' and make snide remarks about my family singing god save the queen and this kind of crap. they also, like your female inlaws, see me as a different class to them. they have this idea that all protestants live in georgian houses in the country and have millions squirrelled away somewhere. this, i have to listen to in their absolute mansion, they could buy and sell my whole family ten times over!

their ignorance and the entrenched religious bias is something that's been very difficult to deal with, regardless of how my husband stands up to them. they're just so so unhappy he didn't marry a girl from the same parish as them so the neighbours wouldn't be talking about their precious son 'married to the prod'. it hasn't come to us both cutting all contact with them, but i'm more than sure when our kids are not baptised catholics they'll be making that decision for themselves.

you can never change these kinds of religious bigots. you can only change your methods of dealing with it i suppose. i know as long as my husband stands up to them we'll be fine. but if he didn't, i'd seriously question if the relationship was worth it.

LegacyUser

I want to thank everyone so much for your replies.

I can't describe how they made me feel.

I was expecting everyone to come back and tell me I was imagining what I was describing, that this kind of thing doesn't happen in N.I. anymore, that no-one else had ever experienced this. To hear that I am not the only person to go through this just made me feel so much better. I don't feel so alone now.

To the Protestant lady who has last responded in this thread, I am really sorry you are going through this, and it is interesting to hear from someone going through similar but on the other side of the fence. It really is horrible, and in your case, it sounds like complete old-fashioned ignorance from your husband's parents. It is a very awkward situation, you can't defend yourself because nobody wants to fall out with the in-laws but sitting there biting your lip for the rest of your life isn't very appealing.

While they assume you are from a stereotypical big house, in my case I'm hearing non-stop remarks about the famine and living in a thatched cottage on the side of a mountain digging potatoes, followed by sneering and snide remarks. I can become used to and get past the constant need to focus on religion and ask about it, I can even put up with a little joking slagging from the men which I know isn't fully-serious, but I can't handle the cruelty from the women who take pleasure in assuming I'm from a very poor, famine-driven background.

It particularly bothers me given that I have so little interest in mine or any religion. As I said in my opening post, I rarely go near a Church except for funerals. If a fellow Catholic asked me if I considered myself Catholic, I'd say "Barely". I am baptised as that but I don't walk around preaching to non-Catholics to convert, or any such behaviour that would perhaps justify the reaction I am receiving in N.I.

I can't deny what I am, they made up their own minds from doing endless petty research. One of the girls put time into researching my facebook page [which is fully locked down on privacy] and decided that the surnames of the majority of my friends are Catholic-type names, so I couldn't deny my background. Had she looked closely, she'd have seen I have many Muslim friends, but the fact that she had taken the time to go online and seek me out was more worrisome than anything.

My fiance feels I have to just completely ignore these pathetic women, that they will never change and that they do not need to ever be a part of my life. What worries me though is that I will end up completely isolated in N.I. with only my husband as a friend. I could become like the rest of the people I am encountering and start hanging out with just 'my own type' and inviting Catholics over to socialise but I can't imagine I'd find many of them willing to enter such a nasty-minded area.

As regards having children, my fiance and I have already agreed that they would be raised as Protestant. I was always completely open-minded to other religions, and I didn't feel it would be right of me to raise them in the Catholic Church when I'm so a-la-carte about my religion. I felt my fiance would be a far better role model for them when it comes to religion. This experience hasn't put me off raising any future children as Protestant, but I don't think I could allow children to grow up in N.I. for fear that they will be bullied in school for having a Catholic mother and Protestant father.

Again, I naively believed all of this attitude had died out many years ago in N.I. I had absolutely no idea what I was getting into or I never would have agreed to go ahead with a house build and show interest in getting involved with my fiance's family business. Most previous meetings over the years were done with his father and brothers in the Republic and as I said, they have no problem with me, they are lovely decent people. My fiance's mother is just a bad-minded woman and she will never be changed from her beliefs.

I am now suggesting to my fiance that perhaps we could again emigrate. I am already looking online at future employment options. I feel terrible dragging him away from the home he has built for us. From our planned future. But I don't know what else I can do. Things unfortunately probably won't ever change up there. He is willing to do whatever makes me happy, but surely I should be willing to do what makes him happy also, and that was to move back to where he is from.

I will be encountering these people again this weekend so if anyone has any suggestions on how to improve relations, do let me know before tomorrow. I'm not holding out much hope though.

Thank you so much to all who have replied!

Magicmatilda

This is really awful and makes me so angry. And they call themselves Christians? I know this is a bit off the wall but could you talk to the local minister about the issue. See if he can give you advice. At least then if they have a go you can say "well your minister doesn't feel that way i had a chat with him only today". I don't think you should ignore this behaviour. I think the next time these women are like that you should put it back on them. Call them on there odd behaviour (researching your facebook), confront them with their absolutely unchristian reaction. Jesus would be so proud to have followers such as them.

Aside from that - why do you have to even see these women, simply don't enter their company. If you partner wants to see his friends let them come to your house. If they insult you there, politely ask them to leave.

Overall though i think emigrating sounds like the only reasonable option. I think your partner should make it clear to his mother and these women that they are the reason he is leaving. They have put him in a position where he has had to make a choice by treating you in such a manner and that he has chosen you. I know it must be difficult to ask him to leave his home but i really can't see how you could both stay there. Outside of separating, emigrating seems the only option.

I really feel for you and hope that things get batter. You have by the sounds of it a good man who loves you.

catch me if you can

Bloody ridiculous crap do they not realise they are only protestants because their bloody king Henry fancied Anne Boleyn and changed the religion of England to suit her.
I would suggest your husband to be changes his friends.seriously tell him all the friends are to be gone men and women.
the male friends in this situation should bloody well have a good talking to their bitchy partners.
you cant change the mother and you have to tolerate her, but she will eventually improve as she gets grankids no doubt.

catch me if you can

and please dont let the religious bigots change your life plans.
build your house, fill it with love and tolerance and teach your children to be tolerant. that is how in time things change for the better.

LegacyUser

catch me if you can wrote: »

I would suggest your husband to be changes his friends.seriously tell him all the friends are to be gone men and women.
the male friends in this situation should bloody well have a good talking to their bitchy partners..

Telling your partner to get rid of his friends is not likely to be the solution long term though and I get the impression these are lifelong friends. The partner is likely to resent his future wife for making him get rid of his friends. I understand the male friends haven't been troublesome, or have come to terms with the religious differences.

Chances are any friends the partner makes in this area will have similar ideas if it is a heavy loyalist area.

lace

Hi OP! I can't really think of any way you can change your relationship with these people - religious bigots don't change their views, no matter how nice you are to them. Maybe have a word with your boyfriend's dad and just let him know how upset you are? He might be able to step up and tell everyone to stop being so silly. He's the head of the family and the business and they might listen to him more than they'd listen to your boyfriend.

Perhaps it would be a good compromise to move to an area of NI where views aren't so old-fashioned? Perhaps a large city close to where your boyfriend's family live? He could still visit them often but it would also give you both a chance to make new, more open-minded friends without having to be surrounded by hatred?

About Facebook though - you can block these people completely so that, to them, it's as if you're not even on Facebook. When they search your name you won't show up in searches and it will seem as though your page doesn't exist. This might be a good way to prevent them from snooping on you.

Sleepy

While your fiancé may not be able to do anything about his mates girlfriends, a word with his Dad letting him know that he's planning on selling the house he's building and giving up the plan to take over the family business to move away because his Mother's attitude is making it clear you'll never be welcome there.

It's a lot to ask of him but he needs to let his mother that if she doesn't start treating you with courtesy and respect, she'll be the one losing.

Starokan

hi op, sorry your having to go through a situation like this, it sounds like a pure nightmare. Unfortunately there is no quick fix to this solution, your fiance having a word might improve things slightly but bigotry of this nature does not stay hidden long.

As another poster mentioned it tends to die out over generations, i would hazard a guess that not so long back many protestants who married into catholic families in the republic of ireland experienced the same treatment you are now getting.

I would advise taking some time to consider your options here. Talk to your partner, make sure that he is aware of how bad this is for you because if you move you will need his support big time. My advise if you move would be to limit your contact with the people who are treating you like this, cultivate new friends who will not be this small minded. Explain to your fiance why you are doing this.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with raising your children in the protestant faith but there will be a lot wrong with them if they are exposed to the toxicity that some members of his family are displaying, your fiance needs to understand now that in the future you will not allow your children to be influenced by these people

i think if you take these approaches it might not affect you as much. Always remember that their actions are a result of an upbringing steeped in ignorance. Nothing they throw at you is your fault and if its any comfort its people like that that enter these communities that ultimately change them for the better

good luck with everything

Emme

This is one of the saddest threads I ever read here. It's hard to believe there's such bigotry a few hundred miles away but unfortunately it's true. I'm a Prod and dated a Tyrone guy (Catholic) a few years ago. I didn't think religion would be an issue but when he found out he dumped me and gave me hell for not telling him my religion. I didn't think it would be an issue but he thought that any women he met from the South would be Catholic.

I don't know what to say to you OP. You cannot change the mindset of ignorant people no matter what religion they are. It all depends on how much your fiance supports you. If his family are so against you now perhaps you should consider moving South if you want to raise your children Protestant. Religion isn't such a tribalist issue down here.

Tiocfaidh Armani

I go out with a Protestant Mnister's daughter and he treats me like the son he never had. Now that's a Christian. Those idiots mentioned on here are not Christian's. Well strictly they are, but in name only.

Moomoo1

r34234324234 wrote: »

It particularly bothers me given that I have so little interest in mine or any religion. As I said in my opening post, I rarely go near a Church except for funerals. If a fellow Catholic asked me if I considered myself Catholic, I'd say "Barely". I am baptised as that but I don't walk around preaching to non-Catholics to convert, or any such behaviour that would perhaps justify the reaction I am receiving in N.I.

why does that bother you? This is not about religion, it's about two tribes with a past history (still within living memory too).

I also think that those people give you a hard time primarily because they are unpleasant people, not because of anything else. As you say, not everyone there acts like this. You obviously provide a convenient target for their abuse, but even if the whole issue hadn't existed, they'd have still found someone to ostracise.

jimmycrackcorm

Op, if you are seriously thinking of emigrating then I'd suggest that you and your fiancee agree on a plan to speak to his mother and put the simple fact before her that her son will be emigrating because her views on his choice of partner prevent him from being at home. It needs to be spelt out to her that is her own choice that is driving you both away.

Ironically, I suspect that being an A la Carte catholic is probably worse than being a staunch one for her....

There's an old joke about Northerners and religion that is pretty apt:
A Jew tourist is out walking in Belfast and runs into a mob. They circle round him and ask if he is Catholic or Protestant. He says, I'm Jewish! Then they ask: But, are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?

Fran79

Hi op
I am so sorry to hear of what is happening to you. I have no experience of what you are going through. I was raised in the Church of England (was in the choir), my husband was raised catholic. We moved over here 3 years ago. (We are in the south east of Ireland) His aunts and uncles, cousins etc here although all catholic have been nothing but supportive of me. (To the point of explaining whats going on during a marriage ceremony when I looked a bit confused).

Our son was baptised catholic, (the ceremony is virtually identical as far as I could see)my family (all protestant) came over and fully participated. The priest was very welcoming to all who attended.

I only hope that whatever happens in your future that you are both happy and feel that you can live in peace wherever you end up. In this day and age it is a very sad situation that people cant get on regardless of their religious persuasion.

I wish you all the best.

Sittingpretty

My God. Genuinely shocked at your experience OP. I would have thought everyone would have moved on from that.

Honestly if it were me because I'm a right old tinker I'd tell them to go f*ck themselves. Small minded, provincial, ballygobackways lemmings that they are. Also for your own sake I wouldn't dream of living there, that type of hatred no matter what religion it is directed at is poisonous.

Hope the weekend isn't too awful for you.

Man I'm very shocked that such bigots exist anymore.

woodoo

GAAman wrote: »

You have two options as i see it, tell your fiance that you would never feel comfortable in that situation (esp living anywhere near them) and work something else out or call time on the relationship.

I agree with that. Your options are both of you move to somewhere more tolerant (the south) or you split up. How could you even dream of spending your life in that cess pit. Your husband should not let you live under that sort of atmosphere.

I find it very sad that those backward people still exist. The place sounds like a timewarp. You are Irish that's what they hate. Being a RC and coming from this island marks you as Irish. Let too many Catholics into their sick little world weakens the union in their eyes. They need their majority. You will never be welcome by the deeper ones among them.

Dionysus

I used to date a girl who happened to be Protestant. One gloriously hot summer day we went back to her family's home in Down. I called into a shop in this rural village to buy something and ask directions. While talking to the shop assistant there was some six or seven teenagers/young adults behind me. Upon hearing my accent in unison they all started sniffing incessantly - i.e. "you can smell a taig". I turned around, smiled and said "Howaya lads" and walked out. That was my first introduction to raw sectarianism.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't like to be living in the shadow of any in-laws. It's my life, our life. The two of you should be creating your life, your home and your future rather than living in all of those which his parents have created. Family is better, and healthier, at a distance. Strong independent couples make a stronger broader family. Living in the shadow of people who hate you for your ethnicity would be a massive injustice to your own individuality, dignity and right to live happily. Life is so short, it should be a priority of everybody's life to avoid living with hostility, hatred and resentment as a most basic prerequisite for happiness. Don't sell yourself short. Sit down with your fiancé and think about the life you both want and what is achievable in the current situation. His Dad seems sound so surely you can keep close to him while keeping away from the ugly part of his family and friends' girlfriends?

Do not, under any circumstances, resign yourself to living in a context of hate. That's not a foundation stone for love and good mental health. You should be surrounding yourself by people who love and support you. I would say you must surround yourself with such people and leave the poisonous ones far away from your life. You have more power here than you think. Be courageous now and save yourself pain in the future. God bless.

Bagheera

I think your situation sounds awful and having spent a fair amount of time in the north myself, I'm well aware of the bigotry that still exists.

However if your fiance is set on taking over the family business is there a possibility that as a compromise you could live in a big town or city that is close enough for him to commute but far enough away that you won't have to socialise with his friends on a regular basis or put up with his mother's horrendous attitude? You could then hopefully make new friends that don't care too much about what religion you are. Just don't move into the house in that town; you deserve to be happy in life!

r34234324234

r34234324234 wrote: »

Before I get into detail here let me say I am NOT seeking a debate on religion or politics. I am looking for personal advice from someone who has maybe been in a similar situation or understands where I'm coming from.


I've been with my fiancé for over 5 years. He is the perfect man for me. I have no complaints with him.

We met, lived and worked in a Muslim country for the first few years moving home to Ireland continuing to work with our company in the Republic more recently. I am from the rural south. He is from Northern Ireland.

I am like most Irish people raised as Catholic. I go to Mass occasionally, mostly for funerals/weddings. I'm not a very religious person at all and wouldn't say religion plays any important part in my life, but I wouldn't call myself anti-religion or an atheist either.

I'm a very tolerant person, as is my partner. Having lived in a Muslim country, we are both open minded and easy going when it comes to religion.

My fiancé comes from Northern Ireland, and he is from a Protestant background. In the time we were together abroad, he never expressed interest in any religious matters and it hasn't seemingly had an effect on his life.

Since both returning to live and work in Ireland, it has become necessary to visit his family and meet his friends quite regularly, he likes to see them most weekends, as he goes home to help out with the family business, and if I want to see him over the weekend, it is necessary for me to go with him. I had no qualms with this, as my own parents have passed away and I don't have siblings or many friends where we are based.

The first couple of visits to his hometown in N.I. were okay, but then things went rapidly downhill.

I had previously met some of his friends/family briefly, but now that my fiancé and I plan to marry, everything seems to be different. They know we are for life.

Everywhere we go, I am asked my religion. I am asked about religious beliefs/outlooks. The topic is ALWAYS religion when I am present. Every relation who enters the house, it's hello, your name, and religion greeted by a very negative attitude. I am treated warmly and feel very welcome until the news that I am Catholic comes out.

As time has passed, many nasty traits have become evident from people in his life. I have now learned that his mother 'detests' Catholics, my fiancé's young sisters told me this recently after two of them were banned from seeing or talking to Catholics. I have always felt quite unwelcome by his mother, but I now feel as though I have leprosy when I enter her home.

This is all complicated by the fact that we had planned to move to his hometown and he has almost completed having a house built in his hometown. I now realise I really don't think I can be part of this environment, ever. I have discussed this with my fiancé but his attitude is '**** them, it's none of their business'. I agreed with him to a point, but now it's really beginning to upset me every new day I spend around them.

Not everybody is a problem. His father is a loving open-minded man who has abandoned the Protestant Church after seeing some of what has happened in the area due to religious intolerance. My fiancé has two brothers who are wonderful, friendly characters. They have never made me feel anything other than welcome and at home in their town.

But both of my fiancé's brothers have Protestant girlfriends who openly look down on me, and treat me differently to anyone who is from the same religious background to them. It is always done slyly, never in front of their boyfriends so no-one can stand up for me.
It is extremely hurtful, I never considered myself to be a sensitive person, but I was treated with respect in a Muslim country and now, because I wasn't baptised into the same denomination as them, I am not worthy of socialising with them or being involved in the same tasks.

I know his mother is deeply unhappy about him marrying a Catholic and I have gone to several religious services with my boyfriend in the hopes that relations would improve with his mother but she ignores it [and me] completely. She has on multiple occasions begged him not to be involved with a Catholic but he told her it was none of her own business and she needed to open her mind and stop judging someone based on religion.

In my boyfriend's social group of life long friends, the men seem to have got past the religious differences and while it is still regularly brought up in conversations, ("So and so down the road is such an a$$hole, he's a Catholic.") they are okay, they have decided that I'm 'different to all the rest' and are quite nice to me now, but their girlfriends are still extremely uninviting, and downright cruel. They seem to think that Catholics are of a different social class and treat me in the same manner that I have seen people in the Republic treat travellers or non-nationals.

They will arrange to do something just for the girls on a Sunday when I am sitting beside them but they never ever include or invite me, they will leave me out of rounds if we are all in the pub, they will never converse with me and if I attempt to speak to them they will pretend not to hear. Two have told me outright that they do not have any interest in my "type".

I am my wits end now after another weekend of overhearing remarks from these girls.

I could even go and join their church but it wouldn't make any difference because apparently the problem is my 'breeding'.


Contrary to what I would have expected, this doesn't seem to be a political thing, it really is a fixation on religion and a belief that because I have been baptised into the Catholic Church, my outlook and views on every little thing in life must be different, that I can never be the same as them.

My fiancé has been as supportive as possible, he has had a word with most of the people involved [though he hasn't bothered with the girlfriends of his friends admitting they are downright nasty and unchangeable] but the only hope he offers is that they will get used to me when I'm around them full time when we live there, and the religion issues will get forgotten about.

I just don't see that happening, and expect I will have a very sad and lonely life if we go ahead to live in Northern Ireland. I am concerned this could be a breaking point in our relationship. It was the plan all along that he would return home with experience and take over the family business as his parents are getting on, I was happy with this plan as I had no idea what I was getting involved with.

Has anyone been in a situation like this? I know that not all of N.I. is like this, it is one particular area where a certain attitude seems to have developed, but if anyone can offer any advice I'd appreciate it.

Hi OP. Its a terrible situation your in as your fiancé seems an open minded sort but his mother unfortunately is a pure and utter bigot.

Ultimately i think your fiancé will have to decide how important you are to him by standing up to his mother so at some point you may have to give him an ultimatum.

its incredibly sad that in the year 2011, 13 years after the Good Friday agreement which was a massive step in Nothern ireland as a political entity going forward, that we still have this pathetic attitude in some parts.
Dont get me wrong im under no illusions that this attitude is probably still displayed by a small minority of her catholic counterparts too.

LegacyUser

My sympathies to the OP who has has ended in up an unanticipated situation where the potential problems were overlooked because of the PC pretence in the South that this attitudes do not continue to exist. The line about been looked upon as a traveller might be looked upon in the South is about right and you might be an educated travelled person but you will always be "inferior". NI's existence is based on this attitude and so many people must continue to have it.

Emigration should not be required, but some action is. It should be possible to live in NI within reasonable distance of your fiancé's home town, a town there where there is an integrated school and a mix of people in other social situations. A more nationalist town is likely to be more accepting than a hardline loyalist one. Contrary to the usual "you have the same on the other side" comments here, this is not quite the case. People from a nationalist background are often very suspicious of the protestant community generally, but are more willing to accept that an individual in a mixed marriage or similar is making an effort to cross the gap and so should be welcomed.

nesbitt

OP there is some sound and heartfelt advice posted on here already.

However what strikes me is that you have already talked to your boyfriend about your issues and it would seem that you are expected to somehow get on with it all.

I did notice in one of your posts that you have already agreed to bring up any children of a future marriage as Prostestant. In another context I would not find that decision telling but in the context you have described it seems that if you said no you wanted to bring up the children as catholics that would not be an agreeable option for your boyfriend and of course his family.

It seems to me that he holds all the cards and that you are making all kinds of personal sacrifices to make this relationship and future work with him. I do not think he is meeting you half way by any means. You OP have to put your cards on the table, have the courage of your convictions and let him know that from what you have experienced of his friends and family you could not contemplate a future there in that bigoted environment.

OP you are already spending weekends there and dreading it. Married life with kids in a supportive and friendly environment can still difficult with the ups and downs everyday life throughs at you. So for your own sake be strong now. I do not mean to be unkind OP but there is a possibility that your boyfriend may choose to locate with the family and take on the business just as was always planned and you may have to find a new life elsewhere.

LegacyUser

nesbitt wrote: »

OP there is some sound and heartfelt advice posted on here already.

However what strikes me is that you have already talked to your boyfriend about your issues and it would seem that you are expected to somehow get on with it all.

I did notice in one of your posts that you have already agreed to bring up any children of a future marriage as Prostestant. In another context I would not find that decision telling but in the context you have described it seems that if you said no you wanted to bring up the children as catholics that would not be an agreeable option for your boyfriend and of course his family.

It seems to me that he holds all the cards and that you are making all kinds of personal sacrifices to make this relationship and future work with him. I do not think he is meeting you half way by any means. You OP have to put your cards on the table, have the courage of your convictions and let him know that from what you have experienced of his friends and family you could not contemplate a future there in that bigoted environment.

OP you are already spending weekends there and dreading it. Married life with kids in a supportive and friendly environment can still difficult with the ups and downs everyday life throughs at you. So for your own sake be strong now. I do not mean to be unkind OP but there is a possibility that your boyfriend may choose to locate with the family and take on the business just as was always planned and you may have to find a new life elsewhere.

OP here. Sorry if it came across that way but no, my boyfriend is extremely easy going and not at all controlling.

He had no issue with whatever religion our children are raised with, it was me that decided that raising them as Protestant makes more sense as I have little interest in my religion while he does attend Church fairly regularly. I had a range of other reasons too but even still, if I changed my mind and decided they should be raised as Catholic he would have no issue with this.

He hasn't seen how the women behave, as they are quiet in front of the men and have waited until I am out of ear shot of the men to say anything. This past weekend, I just avoided them and socialised with the men which was fine, but it isn't nice to see a bunch of women talking about you and whispering. I wouldn't like to start confronting a lot of these people, I can imagine the situation really kicking off if I did.

He has spoken to his father about it, his father agrees with us both that it is utterly wrong, but it is impossible to do anything with an opinion as strong as his mother's. He assured us he would talk to her but I don't think we will be waiting around for the outcome now.

We discussed this potential move to N.I. over several years, and it was a dream of ours to take over his family's successful and interesting business, and his dad was very so happy with this decision and had been supportive throughout.

We have built a house there now so it's hard to just walk away from that. It is my fault that I was utterly naive about how other people would behave towards me, I had no idea it was still like this in N.I. and did not carry out the adequate research. After living in different countries over the years and not having any problems, I assumed that I wouldn't need to consider much when moving to a different part of my home island.

With us living abroad, I had limited experience of his home area, he had never brought a Catholic home before (and no one amongst his family or friends seems to have had any dealings with Catholics) my boyfriend was gone away from his home area for many, many years so the issue hadn't arisen previously in his life. His father is shocked by the reactions as are his brothers. Had we expected things to turn out like this, we wouldn't have gone so far making plans and building a house.

We have discussed it in great detail this weekend and we have come to the conclusion that we will have to sell the house we have built and we will now look at emigrating back to the country we were in previously as we can both work there again and have a peaceful existence. Overall, we were very happy there, just as you get older it's nice to think about coming 'home'.

My boyfriend never would have had a problem with living in southern Ireland where I am from but I don't have any connections to the region anymore and don't have any family.

We had hoped if raising children that it would be nice to have family around, but as my boyfriend now points out, we can as easily live abroad and fly out the family members/friends we want to see when necessary, and not deal with this stress. Also, we already had many friends in that country so we would be less alone than if we decide to make our lives in southern Ireland.

I still feel a little bad that I can't deal with this, but I appreciate that he is being so supportive to me and willing to give up his long term plans to make me happy.

It was suggested that having a word with someone in their Church might be the way to go, and that is exactly what my boyfriend and his father suggested this weekend. I think though that hatred is bred so deep in some of these people that it may not even get through to them. Interestingly, there was the usual chat about religion this weekend amongst his friends and it came up that most of them don't attend the Church services more than a couple of times a year, so I'm not sure they would have much heed on advice directly from the Church.

Thanks to everyone who replied here. It certainly made me feel better that I am not alone, I only wish I had posted here a long time ago, before the house build, to see what it would be like for a Catholic to live in modern day N.I.

But as several of you have said, you only live once and there is no point being surrounded by negative, nasty people. We will be talking more over the week and making further plans for the future so when something is set in stone, I'll try to come back and update.

Thank you to you all!

nesbitt

OP I am glad that you are making plans for a life away from bigotry. Hopefully you will be able to move forward and have a good life together. Seems as if you are on the same page.

As regards regretting being ignorant about bigotry, perhaps you had toexperience it first hand to truly believe that it exists, and is alive and in place in 2011...

Lanaier

r34234324234 wrote: »

Again, I naively believed all of this attitude had died out many years ago in N.I.

You're not the only one OP, this thread has been a real eye-opener for me.

r34234324234 wrote: »

It is my fault that I was utterly naive about how other people would behave towards me, I had no idea it was still like this in N.I. and did not carry out the adequate research.

Nope, not your fault.
Either that or you and I are both clueless.

r34234324234 wrote: »

After living in different countries over the years and not having any problems, I assumed that I wouldn't need to consider much when moving to a different part of my home island.

Same situation here, threads like this make me rethink my returning home strategy.

Elle Collins

Hi OP. I had a LTR with a protestant from the north several years ago. In my case his family were all lovely and very accepting, it was their friends who were the problem. Very embittered narrow-minded fcuked up people. That was their problem as far as I was concerned, and I was not about to allow them make it mine. A sharp short fcukoff goes a long way in situations like this.

If I were you there's no way on earth I'd be moving there, and actually I'd be thinking very carefully about having a future with a man who'd be prepared to subject me to that in the first place.

damselnat

I am really saddened reading this, and a year or so ago I would have been shocked, but after experiences I had last year...

I grew up in London, catholic, at a catholic school with muslim students in quite a jewish area of NL so I never really thought anything about different religions till I moved over here 12 years ago and discovered that, to people in the rural area we moved to, my "brand" of catholicism was very "protestant" in many aspects, I suppose because of my English upbringing. In my teens I totally rejected religion and I'd consider myself atheist, but I never really think about it because religion plays little to no part in my life.

In college I had plenty of friends from all over the country who were all sorts of religions and races, and one guy I got on particularly well with from the north. Just before we finished he asked me out and we started going out, had a great time, lots in common, we're both big cricket and rugby fans so that's what our friendship was founded on, or so I thought. About 7-8 months into it he asked me to come up and spend the weekend with him and his family, we'd take in some rugby and meet his parents. I agreed, looking forward to it as I'd never really been up north before and was looking forward to seeing another part of the country.

It was all going perfectly well when I arrived, his mother was really friendly, asked me about growing up in London and what I studied at uni and all this, it was OK. We went off to the rugby and that was the first sectarianism I noticed. It was Ulster v Leinster and we were seated between two groups of both supporters. One Leinster fan in front of me turned to chat with his Ulster counterpart, the usual bit of friendly banter about the players and the teams. The other man said something very to rude to him about being a dirty catholic and turned back to his own set. The rest of the match continued like that, on a vicious level. I've been to plenty of rugby matches in my time and never seen anything like it, but the biggest shock I got was later when we were in the pub, meeting his friends. The very first thing one of them came out with was "what religion are you?"


I'd never heard anything so rude in my life, and so blunt. I'd always been brought with rather rigid social rules (I would be seen as "terribly English" to a lot of people) and the golden rules of social interaction were always that you *never* asks someone you barely know their politics, religion, sexuality or how much they earn. Imagine being introduced to someone for the first time and asking them whether they prefer sleeping with men or women??? I mean you just wouldn't do it, it is beyond comprehension.

I managed to gather my composure and answered honestly, that I'd been christened catholic but neither myself or my immediate family are particularly religious and in fact I don't believe in a god at all. Well my then boyfriend's reaction was something else altogether. He was absolutely horrified, took me outside, started going on that I hadn't told him and apparently he had told his mother that I was CofE and making out that I was some sort of horrific traitor. Apparently because of my accent and non-Irish catholic "tastes and behaviour" - (apparently being a cricket fan automatically meant I should be protestant; maybe it's because I'm English but this totally bemuses me).

That was the end of that, he didn't want to be with me even though we'd previously got on so well and frankly I wouldn't have wanted to stay with someone who turned out like that either. The next day his mother and sisters, who had been really friendly and welcoming to me, were ice cold, their attitude changed completely, it was like I had completely betrayed them, committed some sort of horrific treason. Awkward is not the word.

I was just so shocked by the attitude of the guy in question and his friends and family. I'd known this guy a couple of years, we had friends in common who are catholic and protestant and muslim, but obviously he felt he couldn't date anyone who wasn't protestant. It's sad because I'd thought he was a very open minded guy, and he was 21, as most of his rude and bigoted friends. It's sad that people so young still feel that way, and I don't believe it to be representative of all, but OP you can't stay in an environment like that, it will just wear you down, make you bitter and resentful of your husband. I think you know this though, and it's great to see that your fiance is supportive not just by saying "**** em" but by actually being pragmatic about it. I wish you all the best and happiness for the future in a place you both feel relaxed and at ease. Goodness knows I know I couldn't put up with it and I only experienced two days of it.

LegacyUser

The OP may wish to return to country aboard where she worked. One point to consider whether she will wish to raise children in what might be a quite different culture. At one level she might say good riddance to things Irish, but both her and her fiancé are Irish in general social context and, bigotry aside, a small town upbringing in Munster may have a lot in common with one in Antrim, whereas their children might have quite a different experience.

Good luck for the future.

Taltos

Can posters please take care in using proper references for either faith. Some abbreviations used to this point can be viewed as derogatory slurs, we cannot tolerate such language and thank you all for your understanding.

Repeated use of such terms will incur infractions, and may force us to close this thread.

Taltos

I can very much imagine how you feel even though I have not been in the same situation as you exactly. My own situation differs wildly but I reckon much of the same emotions and worries permeated it. I apologise for the length of my reply but like many others on the thread I am so shocked and appalled by your story that I have been as moved as they.

In my case I am in a relationship with two girls, one from Sligo and one from cork and we live in Maynooth. The move to Maynooth meant that they left many of their friends behind except for the ones that now live in Dublin whom they see regularly.

Like your partner - the move was easier for me since I am from Dublin and the proximity to friends and family there meant I was shielded from the move more than they - and in this case you - were.

The majority of my direct friends and family were fine with them. Like you however the partners of some of my friends were often derogatory and vile, entirely because of our unusual relationship and again like you they made most of their comments while boyfriends and the like were out of earshot. Harem comments. Slut comments. You can imagine yourself the kinds people can come out with.

At the end of the day - like you - we decided the only two solutions were to get out of the situation entirely or stick it out and let it get better with time. We chose the latter and it has gotten much better with time. Religion however can be a much more divisive issue so I imagine if you stick it out it will be a longer and more harrowing haul than ours was.

Maybe some of what we did while sticking it out will be of interest or even comfort to you. If not feel free to disregard my post entirely. However these are the things I noticed and remember most.

1) You are alone now. So were my GFs at first for the most part. However the fact is that when you move to a new place you might be alone at first but the trick is to involve yourself heavily in the things that interest you, both with and without your partner. Regardless of your interests there is almost always a social aspect to them to become involved in. You will make your own circle of friends, you will make your own life, you will “fit in” better than you think you will. You will not always have to live in the pocket of your partner’s friends as you will have your own social circle and so you will not be exposed to the awful women as much as you are now. When you are out with your partner and his friends, some of your own friends might come too, and you will find the cowardly nasty types are less inclined to expose their true bigoted souls when you are not the lone sheep and an easy target. They only act so “brave” because they have each other for back up and you have no one.

2) Easier said than done but when you are around these people be yourself, never get angry, remain calm and just be a nice person. Show the bigots that you actually are not the monster they want you to be and this takes the ground from under them. They treat you nasty in the hope you will lose the rag and so they can say “look, see, we were right, look how shrill and nasty she is”. Do not give them what they want. Treat them and reach out to them as human beings. Take the chances you see to do this. One of my girlfriends for example heard a conversation in the pub that one of the particularly nasty women to her was in some sort of trouble and needed help. She simply stepped up and volunteered and said “Oh I can help with that”. I remember growing up watching He-Man type hero cartoons and in most of these cartoons the bad guy would be about to die and one of the good guys would help him. The dialogue was clichéd and repetitive and along the lines of “but why… why would you help me…… I am and have been your enemy” and the “bad guys” world view would be left irreparably altered. It always seemed like fantasy to me, stuff of cartoons trying to teach children moral lessons. However I saw it literally happen before my eyes as this nasty woman essentially went through the emotions of “I have been nothing but nasty to this girl and here she is volunteering to take many hours out of her Sunday morning to come over and help ME?”. Slowly over time these people realized the girls were not so bad.

3) One of my girlfriends also looked for the chance to continue the conversation when snide comments were made out of ear shot of the partners. I remember walking back to the group of girls after we had gone outside (I do not smoke, but often go out with mates when they do) and I could see this look of panic on one of these girls faces. I realized when I got back and heard the conversation that basically she had made some snide comment, my GF had kept the conversation going, and the girl was in the panic because she realized that the snide comment would not go unheard, but that it would be obvious when everyone rejoined the conversation what was going on and my GF kept dropping in lines like “So when someone like you says … like you just did a moment ago I think to myself ….” and essentially did everything she could to keep repeating what the girl just said. Her boyfriend was NOT happy with what she had said either and there was no way she was hiding that she said it. Nor was my GF angry or arguing, she was just acting like the comment made was worthy of further conversation.

4) Family was a little difficult too. Especially as you would imagine the fathers of the girls who viewed me as some dirty man taking advantage. It is after all the parents role to worry about their children and some take it too far. Over time they realize that this is not just some sordid sex whim but that we are serious and in love and this is the life we have chosen. When parents get to the point they realize you do not actually need protecting but you are happy and serious about your choice, they change. Children also make a big impact on this. Relations with their parents were already good by the time our daughter was born last year, but our daughter cemented it. Even the parents of the gf whos daughter it is not are treated like, and feel like, Grandparents and their love for us has only increased for bringing that Granddaughter into their lives. They are now no different than they would be if they really were the Grandparents of the girl and when that girlfriend finally has a child with me the effect will be more so on all the Grandparents and “Grandparents” concerned.

Over time… and I make no illusions for you that it was easy or quick… It took a couple of years and on a couple of occasions when alone with one or both of the girls their brave façade would fail and I would see the tears that the hurt caused them but they hid when around the nastier people…. But over time the entire thing equalized. The girls have their own social circles now too. When in mine the people who are still in it have become accepting, less ignorant, and nice.

They have realized the girls are not the monsters they want them to be. The nastier people have left our circle either by choice or because the others, even in one or two cases their own partners, realized that they simply did not like the people they were seeing and asked them to leave. Everyone is happy and the history of nastiness and pain seems like a comical distant memory in an almost “What were we even worried about at all” kind of way.

A warming story is one of the historically nastier ones who has not left our group not too long ago was in our house and said to us… and I think this was her way of apologizing for the past… something like “I love calling over to this house. The amount of love that exists in this house, and is obvious in everything you do here, is an inspiration to me”.

One of my GFs replied with something like “Thank you, hearing that means a lot, and I think you know why” and was met with “I know. I really do. I have come a long way. Matured”. And the matter was dropped, hopefully forever. I imagine it was not easy for her to say and it has meant a lot to us since.

I think the message of my post therefore is that whether you choose to stay or go neither choice will be easy but stay true to yourself and each other - and to love itself - and you will…. not just might but will… make it work in the end. I send my well wishes and thoughts with you along whichever path you choose to follow and I am sure I speak for everyone here in saying we are all here watching this thread should you any time in the coming years chose to return to it and keep us informed of your progress and the extremes of highs and lows that I know you will touch along the way.

woodoo

Your boyfriend will know his community well. He knows the attitude of some of them to Catholics. And he will k ow how deep it is and that a belief in God has very little to do with the bigotry. I'd imagine himself and his father totally understand that it would be a difficult life for you there.

If he offers to sell the house and move don't feel bad and agree to stay in NI. Its a septic place in parts still. You and your future children will be well out of it.

curlzy

Hey OP,

I've read most of the thread and to honest with you I'm pretty pissed off at your bf. It's ok for you to be subjected to hurtful bigotry, be threated like a leper, be made to be ashamed of your heritage, all because they're silly people and you shouldn't be upset??? You're doing MORE than your share of compromise, you willing to raise your kids as prods even though you're not religious??? The whole thing smacks of unfairness, he's asking you to live in a place where you are despised. That's bloody awful. My dad is English and my mam is Irish, so I have a little bit of experience of this kind of bigotry so I understand how f*cking infuriating it is to have to sit there and take this crap even though you know you're miles better than the stinking bigot that's dishing out the abuse. Honestly OP, I would have major questions about the type of boyfriend that is willing to let his gf live a life of abuse and being despised, just so that he can be happy living where he wants. I wouldn't in a million years agree to live there so I really would look at emigrating. His mother sounds like a bigot and much like racists they are f*cking idiots, you can't change an idiot's mind so why try?? You've tried and tried, why should you continue to hold out your face to be slapped??? So yeah maybe have another look at this wonderful man that is asking you to live as a second class citizen for his happiness.

Best of luck.

Taltos

All & Curlzy
one final time - please do not use abbreviations for any religion that can be viewed as insulting.
Further use of language like this will result in a red card.

Taltos