New Diesel M5

EPM

BMW are supposedly planning a diesel M5.

Although it will make slightly less horsepower than the new petrol-powered BMW M5, the final numbers are likely to be in the 500bhp to 550bhp range. Torque, meanwhile, will exceed the 500lb ft of the new petrol M5 by a considerable margin — and could push north of 650lb ft.

Linky

Discuss:D

I like it, there is something extremely cool about very powerful diesels. I want one!

MetzgerMeister

BMW have lost the plot with M cars! First turbos, now diesel!

Or is this a 535d with M badges all over it and stick on vents over the front wheel arches???

Inbox

Think I saw a few weeks back that they are bringing out an M550xd. I don't thinks its a proper M car.

Magown3

einheisserschre wrote: »

BMW have lost the plot with M cars! First turbos, now diesel!

Or is this a 535d with M badges all over it and stick on vents over the front wheel arches???

Stop being such an old fuddy duddy and move with the times for god-sake !!

Tea 1000

Funny, I was actually just going to post this link myself!
I think it's a disaster really. I also think it'll be unreliable. 500bhp from a 3 litre diesel? Second hand ones will be a disaster, the crap driven out of them. Diesels don't respond well over time when they're abused.
The point of a high performance car is that you get a good broad power band. No diesel gives this.
The only good about referring to it as an M-division product is that people won't be bragging on about how a regular diesel 5-series "quicker every day than an M5".

btkm8unsl0w5r4

The power and torque figures on this are huge. I think anything with 500+ BHP and 700+ torques can wear as many M badges as it wants. Turbo s, lower displacement engines and diesel are progress not plot loss.

MetzgerMeister

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Funny, I was actually just going to post this link myself!
I think it's a disaster really. I also think it'll be unreliable. 500bhp from a 3 litre diesel? Second hand ones will be a disaster, the crap driven out of them. Diesels don't respond well over time when they're abused.
The point of a high performance car is that you get a good broad power band. No diesel gives this.
The only good about referring to it as an M-division product is that people won't be bragging on about how a regular diesel 5-series "quicker every day than an M5".

Good points but I'd say the 3 turbos will kick in at different times throughout the rev range in order to give a good power band.

si_guru

EPM wrote: »

Discuss:D

Stilll trying to catch VAG..

VAG wrote:

493bhp @ 4,000rpm & 738lbft @ 1,750-3,000 rpm

Do people with €100K+ really need or care about getting a diesel???

TestTransmission

si_guru wrote: »

Do people with €100K+ really need or care about getting a diesel???

My thoughts exactly.

EPM

si_guru wrote: »

Do people with €100K+ really need or care about getting a diesel???

That's exactly what I was thinking;)

Poll added:)

Magown3

Roberto Salty Butcher wrote: »

The power and torque figures on this are huge. I think anything with 500+ BHP and 700+ torques can wear as many M badges as it wants. Turbo s, lower displacement engines and diesel are progress not plot loss.

Absolutely! Totally agree with this.

Get with the program people. Its evolution, BMW aren't going to put out a car that the don't think will perform as it should and last the test of time.

I'm sure the BMW technical development team are a LOT more intelligent than some all of the keyboard warriors here!


P.S. Don't knock it till you've actually driven it!

Inbox

si_guru wrote: »

Stilll trying to catch VAG..



Do people with €100K+ really need or care about getting a diesel???

Yes i Think most E60/61 M5 owners have a pain in their face with the 200 mile range.

TestTransmission

EPM wrote: »

That's exactly what I was thinking;)

Poll added:)

oh sweet jesus, we just agreed on something :pac:

si_guru

si_guru wrote: »

Stilll trying to catch VAG..



Do people with €100K+ really need or care about getting a diesel???

You would be surprised, just because you can afford the car doesn't mean you want to spend massive sums of money keeping petrol in it if you do a lot of driving.

Matt Simis

Its an M-tuned Diesel as opposed an M powered 5 series. So "diesel M5" is a fairly incorrect way of presenting it! Back in the day BMW offered CSi, Mxxx and Mx variants of models, this is a return to form.

EPM

TestTransmission wrote: »

oh sweet jesus, we just agreed on something :pac:

But a halo model like an M5 being diesel doesnt sound right. I can definitely see a market for it (there's a load of high mileage M5's/RS6's about) with the added fuel efficiency. I've nothing against diesels at all tbh but I really hope it's properly tested as it's a car that will get abuse and having the usualy diesel problems could kill it off very quickly.

Lurching

Ill withhold judgement till I drive one. I'd imagine it would be a completely different driving experience to the petrol variant. Its unusual that they chose a reasonably small displacement though, even with 3 turbos.

cadaliac

It has to be a good thing.
It is development by BMW and it pretty much raises the bar for high performance Diesels.


There most definitely is a market for the car - as said before lots of high miler M5's and RS6's knocking around and that is the exact market BMW are looking to exploit.
You can be sure they have their homework done on the market share they are expecting to get.

On the reliability front, I would be dubious at best for their first tri-Turbo big HP diesel engine not to give teething problems.

However, BMW must get this right.
If their diesel cars are known for giving problems, there is no way a customer will part with over €100k for a car that will leave them stranded on the side of the road.
Their reputation is already bad enough when it comes to diesel reliability so I would imagine they want to correct this with a flagship 5 series, that will be reliable.
Proof will be in the eating so to speak.

Tea 1000

einheisserschre wrote: »

Good points but I'd say the 3 turbos will kick in at different times throughout the rev range in order to give a good power band.

It's the narrow rev range that I have the problem with. And a diesel's reluctance to rev quickly. Even if it does (and it probably will) pull very hard from 1,200 rpm, it'll taper off at 4k and hit the limiter at 5k. That's a long way short of an 8k plus rev limit.
But take any diesel, even the 535d, which will have very similar characteristics to the new one, and just blip the throttle. It's sluggish in its response. Not like a decent petrol.

Tea 1000

Matt Simis wrote: »

Its an M-tuned Diesel as opposed an M powered 5 series. So "diesel M5" is a fairly incorrect way of presenting it! Back in the day BMW offered CSi, Mxxx and Mx variants of models, this is a return to form.

That's what I thought alright, it won't be like an M5d. If they did want to go that route, they'd need a V8 diesel I reckon.

There's more to an M5 than figures on paper to be fair.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Tea 1000 wrote: »

It's the narrow rev range that I have the problem with. And a diesel's reluctance to rev quickly. Even if it does (and it probably will) pull very hard from 1,200 rpm, it'll taper off at 4k and hit the limiter at 5k. That's a long way short of an 8k plus rev limit.
But take any diesel, even the 535d, which will have very similar characteristics to the new one, and just blip the throttle. It's sluggish in its response. Not like a decent petrol.

I would suggest that tri turbos will be set up in sequence to minimise or eradicate lag. Also just as they can get 8500 revs from a petrol v8 they will get at least 7000 from this diesel with a very flat torque curve. This engine may redefine diesel performance and characteristics. M division dont muck around, everything we think we know about D's may become obsolete. Lets wait and see, but I for one have a feeling this may be awesome.

Voodoomelon

Bit of a joke really. I'm not one of these sticklers for naturally aspirated M petrol engines, claiming the M cars have lost their "soul" etc.

However making a diesel M5 is just taking it a step too far. To me, the whole point of making the M5 is to have the best, most powerful, rip-roaring variant of a standard 5 series as possible. This is what they've always used petrol engines. Making it with a diesel engine is taking things a step backwards, not forwards. Someone who pays €120k+ to have an tractor M5 chugging away at the lights needs their head examined. No doubt they'll do a decent job at refining it somewhat, but there's no competing with the petrol engine, no matter what the performance figures say, in terms of sound, refinement an smoothness.

Tea 1000

Roberto Salty Butcher wrote: »

I would suggest that tri turbos will be set up in sequence to minimise or eradicate lag. Also just as they can get 8500 revs from a petrol v8 they will get at least 7000 from this diesel with a very flat torque curve. This engine may redefine diesel performance and characteristics. M division dont muck around, everything we think we know about D's may become obsolete. Lets wait and see, but I for one have a feeling this may be awesome.

I just can't see a 7,000 rpm rev limit on a diesel. I'd be amazed if they get it to 6k.

Matt Simis

Roberto Salty Butcher wrote: »

I would suggest that tri turbos will be set up in sequence to minimise or eradicate lag. Also just as they can get 8500 revs from a petrol v8 they will get at least 7000 from this diesel with a very flat torque curve. This engine may redefine diesel performance and characteristics. M division dont muck around, everything we think we know about D's may become obsolete. Lets wait and see, but I for one have a feeling this may be awesome.

I seriously doubt they will be getting 7000rpm from a diesel. 8500 from a petrol V8 isnt that amazing, its good, but its not world defining. 7000rpm from a diesel would require incredibly lightweight components which doesnt bode well with the tri turbo design. As per the Mazda Skyactiv-D thread, Mazda are using low compression, light weight internals and ultra thin walls and talking about 5400rpm rev limits. 7000rpm just not going to happen and the more turbos, the less likely!

Also this isnt an MDivision car, its an M touched engine. Also isnt this a reasonably standard 6 pot diesel engine with another turbo (or 2), the way the 535d is fairly standard with a sequential turbo added. The 3rd turbo is electric and therefore extremely short duration anyhow.

unkel

Is Matt Simis the only one who has read the article?

It's not an M5, just a powerful 4WD 5-series diesel tuned by M. Nothing wrong with that.

stevenmu

I think Autocar are adding a touch of hype here. They're the ones saying it's a diesel M5, not BMW. In fact later in the article they add:

it appears likely that the diesel performance car will bear a nameplate along the lines of 550dXM

So it's a souped up diesel 5 series, not a dieseled down M5.

Eric Cartman

i just got a little sick in my mouth - also wooo 5000'th post

Zubeneschamali

Atari Jaguar.

Nobody bar a few obsessive BMW fans cares about the M brand.

No even BMW, on recent evidence.

EPM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Nobody bar a few obsessive BMW fans cares about the M brand.

I couldn't disagree more. These are real world cars compared to exotics but offer a flavour of much more expensive counterparts. The following is huge and rightly so.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No even BMW, on recent evidence.

So putting huge development resources into what promises to be probably the most advanced diesel engine in the world means they dont care? I'd go as far as saying they are risking a lot of brand kudos linking the name (fair enough not a full M model) with this car.

SV

Eugh.

No. I don't care about the figures.

Tea 1000

I'm still bothered by a 740d being just an I6 diesel... I'm really going to have an irrational hatred for a car badged as a 550 with only 6 cylinders!
Speaking of big power diesels, where are Audi at with their R8 TDI? (presumably with red t, d and i)

challengemaster

Ah excellent, 3 times the turbo parts to get sucked into the engine :pac:

GTE

If it turns out to be an M5 or not doesnt matter to me. I dont care about the origins of the brand

If it does become an M5 engine it is probably not replacing the petrol, merely adding to the choice you have when you want to buy one.

Badge snobbery may be seen as stupid by most here but making a fuss over an engine thats being added to a choice you have at the dealers is silly in my eyes too.

It is good to see diesels progress and I look forward to seeing the tech filter down. It may be a while before the diesels are as good to drive as the petrol M5 but how else are we going to get there?


Tea1000,

I think the R8 TDI didnt work as it was ripping the car to shreds. There was too much torque for the car to take. I believe they abandoned the idea.

unkel

EPM wrote: »

So putting huge development resources into what promises to be probably the most advanced diesel engine in the world

It will probably win "world engine of the year"

BMW nearly always wins it

Lord Nikon

Quote of the year - “Otherwise you’ll be spinning your tyres all day”.

EPM

unkel wrote: »

It will probably win "world engine of the year"

BMW nearly always wins it

Think of the junket the panel will get:D

Tea 1000

bbk wrote: »

If it turns out to be an M5 or not doesnt matter to me. I dont care about the origins of the brand

If it does become an M5 engine it is probably not replacing the petrol, merely adding to the choice you have when you want to buy one.

Badge snobbery may be seen as stupid by most here but making a fuss over an engine thats being added to a choice you have at the dealers is silly in my eyes too.

It is good to see diesels progress and I look forward to seeing the tech filter down. It may be a while before the diesels are as good to drive as the petrol M5 but how else are we going to get there?


Tea1000,

I think the R8 TDI didnt work as it was ripping the car to shreds. There was too much torque for the car to take. I believe they abandoned the idea.

I suppose a Veyron gearbox for an R8 would be too expensive!
I guess you're right though, choice is always good.

conzy

I think the whole diesel power thing is getting a bit silly... The 535d is a great car and all but returns around 25-32mpg what will this new 550d or whatever return? 18-25 mpg? And its a hugely complex engine compared to the NA V10 thats currently in the M5 that gets around 20mpg...

Diesels in the 150-240HP range that still return close to 50mpg obviously have a place but this 550d seems like a bad idea

dr.fuzzenstein

I'm with Clarkson on this one.
If you're buying a Diesel, you are being frugal.
And if you're rich enough to buy one of these, how will it impress the ladies that you're showing them that you're careful with your doe?

Matt Simis

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Speaking of big power diesels, where are Audi at with their R8 TDI? (presumably with red t, d and i)

The R8 V12TDI project died due to limited market and a number of fires (seriously) in the test mules. The engine is in the Q7 though.

conzymaher wrote: »

I think the whole diesel power thing is getting a bit silly... The 535d is a great car and all but returns around 25-32mpg

In fairness the 535d is a 38-40mpg car on normal trips. Around town it suffers a bit more (25mpg as a school run car).

Sesshoumaru

I think they should make an electric M5

qz

Now I've heard it all.

/thread

TheBazman

If I had say 30k and was in the market for a 5 year old one I would definitely go for the diesel. Given I do around 500 miles per week and like a bit of punch in my cars it would be an easy choice. Real world prob 25 mpg Vs 17mpg and prob c2k tax Vs c1k would make a difference.

Mr.David

If its called a 550d M or whatever, fine.

If its called an M5 d it is another step towards destroying the M heritage.

Its all about large capacity, high revving linear petrol engines. I don't care how powerful the diesel is or how much torque it produces that is not what makes a sports saloon and certainly not an M car.

M is for motorsport.

What worries me more though is the fact that it will be 4wd. What a shame! A huge overweight diesel burning M5 with all 4 wheels driven. Lacking the aural character and linear driveability of a petrol engine.

Eugh!

Who needs this car? The Chinese don't do diesel (nor do the Americans) so there goes the two largest markets in the world. Similarly the Middle Eastern markets won't touch it with a barge pole.

Buy a 535d, its a great car. Or else by an M5. Or both. Seperately. But not combined into one.

TheBazman

Buy a 535d, its a great car. Or else by an M5. Or both. Seperately. But not combined into one.

been there done that .....and I settled on ........ the 535d. Roll on the 550d!!

Marlow

Inbox wrote: »

Yes i Think most E60/61 M5 owners have a pain in their face with the 200 mile range.

While the range in the E60/E61 M5's was quite low, and considerable higher in the E39 M5's, the F10 M5's got a bigger tank, so M already sorted that department

Matt Simis wrote: »

Its an M-tuned Diesel as opposed an M powered 5 series. So "diesel M5" is a fairly incorrect way of presenting it! Back in the day BMW offered CSi, Mxxx and Mx variants of models, this is a return to form.

Yep. This will just be a M550xd or 550xdM, but not a M5d.

Tea 1000 wrote: »

It's the narrow rev range that I have the problem with. And a diesel's reluctance to rev quickly. Even if it does (and it probably will) pull very hard from 1,200 rpm, it'll taper off at 4k and hit the limiter at 5k. That's a long way short of an 8k plus rev limit.
But take any diesel, even the 535d, which will have very similar characteristics to the new one, and just blip the throttle. It's sluggish in its response. Not like a decent petrol.

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I just can't see a 7,000 rpm rev limit on a diesel. I'd be amazed if they get it to 6k.

Currently, the 525tds (E34/E39) limits at 5k rpm, the 525d (E39) at 4.5k rpm and the 535d (E60/E61) at 5.5k rpm. Another turbo scrolling there, will bring them beyond 6k rpm no problem.

Matt Simis wrote: »

The R8 V12TDI project died due to limited market and a number of fires (seriously) in the test mules. The engine is in the Q7 though.

Actually. The reason the R8 V12TDI wasn't manufactured was, that it was too powerful compared to the just aquired Porsche brand. Well, that's another rumor, but a very plausable one.

/M

challengemaster

Mr.David wrote: »

M is for motorsport.

Funnily enough, the top 5 cars in LMP1 this year were all Diesel powered. Fairly sure Le Mans counts as motorsport, right?

What worries me more though is the fact that it will be 4wd. What a shame! A huge overweight diesel burning M5 with all 4 wheels driven. Lacking the aural character and linear driveability of a petrol engine.

huge overweight diesel burning M5.... I don't think they're going to make the car larger for shíts and giggles, so it won't be Huuuuuuuge, it'll be the same size as any other 5 series. If you do some research, quite a few of BMW's petrol cars tend to weigh more than their diesel counterparts, or in the case of the diesel being heavier, it's probably not more than 50kg.

And what's so bad about 4WD?

-Corkie-

Sad day for BMW petrol heads. I suppose they will bring out a FWD version...:rolleyes:

Matt Simis

Marlow wrote: »

Actually. The reason the R8 V12TDI wasn't manufactured was, that it was too powerful compared to the just aquired Porsche brand. Well, that's another rumor, but a very plausable one.

You and your conspiracy theories! The R8 TDI, while a fun toy project, had effectively zero market. It was a halo project and it achieved the effect that diesel could be sporty without actually being released.

Audi has a host of more powerful petrol engines than the V12TDI, including the R8 5.2l V10 Petrol that offers 5% more BHP than the V12TDI and a 3.9sec 0-60.. so they already hand it to Porsche in the numbers game.

Mr.David wrote: »

What worries me more though is the fact that it will be 4wd. What a shame! A huge overweight diesel burning M5 with all 4 wheels driven. Lacking the aural character and linear driveability of a petrol engine.

Nonsense! Without AWD, it would be an undrivable tyre spinner given the torque targets. A smart, adaptive RWD biased AWD drivetrain sounds absolutely perfect for it.

Mr.David

challengemaster wrote: »

Funnily enough, the top 5 cars in LMP1 this year were all Diesel powered. Fairly sure Le Mans counts as motorsport, right?


huge overweight diesel burning M5.... I don't think they're going to make the car larger for shíts and giggles, so it won't be Huuuuuuuge, it'll be the same size as any other 5 series. If you do some research, quite a few of BMW's petrol cars tend to weigh more than their diesel counterparts, or in the case of the diesel being heavier, it's probably not more than 50kg.

And what's so bad about 4WD?

Yes LM is proper motorsport......but the diesel engines dont really add much. Go there you will see for yourself, what you will hear in your ears for days afterwards are the Astons and the deep lazy V8 'Vettes. Not the hoover like Peugeots or Audis.

Diesels are heavier than petrol engined cars, for the same capacity. The block is invariably heavier, and there are turbos etc to add in too. This tends to cause it to understeer more and handle worse. You do my research for me then, find me a BMW that has a lighter diesel than petrol for the same size engine.......

4WD is fine for some applications, e.g. Nissan GTR etc. For others its just not pure or appropriate. A prime example being a BMW, or a Porsche Carrera 4 (why????).

Yes the diesel will be quick, yes it will be capable, blah blah blah. I like the idea of a rapid diesel saloon with a sporty bias like the 535d. The M5 is a 'Supercar eater'. Its a balls out, hardcore, motorsport inspired variant. And it should never burn diesel or put power down through four wheels.:mad: