Proud to be Irish. Why not proud to be white?

later12

TL; DR: This thread is not about encouraging racial pride, it's about the misguidedness of nationalism.

This evening I was reading an article on the Luas about the public finances, and an elderly man beside me, who I had been chatting with casually, mentioned that the country was gone to the dogs (actually he used more colourful language). Naturally, I agreed, because as another miserable old Irishman once said 'old men have a right to their anger'.

As we sat waiting on the Luas, he started telling me about the College of Surgeons and the pockmarks on it from the 1916 rising. Now we were getting into republicanism. And then he expressed an opinion that I cannot understand, he said he was still "proud to be Irish"

This term angers me because I don't see how it can be any more acceptable to be proud to be Irish than proud to be European, or even proud to be white. What sort of gratification can really be taken from what was, after all, a mere accident of birth, an ethnic identity?

Now this man was about 80, and I'm not going to be so impertinent as to criticise an 80 year old stranger. But the very fact that this sort of sentiment is deemed perfectly acceptable - praiseworthy, even - is what bothers me.

To shamelessly pilfer one user's signature, is it not the case that "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it" (George Bernard Shaw)

What do boards users think, would any of you describe yourselves as 'proud to be Irish'? And why do you think that nationality is something from which you can derive some pride?

jimmycrackcorm

I'm proud that I'm not from Cork.

Pdfile

im proud that im not french.

AnamGlas

Why not be proud of it? It's my home, always has been, always will be.

krudler

meh, my parents shagged here, thats about the involvement I had in my nationality.

K-9

Proud I'm not a West Brit myself.

The problem with Nationalism is it is often defined by what some are against, not what they are for.

policarp

If you knew the 80 yo mans life story, that may give a clue as to why he said what he said. . .

Hunchback

To mask an inferiority complex, perhaps?

Johro

later10 wrote: »

Proud to be Irish. Why not proud to be white?

Look around you.

zuroph

Proud to be me. Everything else is bull****.

UnknownSpecies

I'm proud of our Guiness drinking Leprechaun stereotype!

dlofnep

I respect being Irish, and value the culture, heritage and what we as a people have overcome. I don't think being Irish makes us anymore fortunate or superior than any other nationality.

GoldFour4

I'm proud to be from a country with such a small population which has produced renowned authors, artists and generally looked upon fondly by the world.

Saila

he just meant "as bad an all as things are, on balance Im still glad I can say Im Irish" as we have an international reputation with ordinary people of being good people who enjoy the craic

Napper Hawkins

I'm proud to be from the country next door to the country that produced Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. \m/

DjFlin

Pride is a funny thing. I've very little attachment to being Irish, but I still feel that little ping whenever I hear "An Irish person invented X" or "The Irish have the most Y".

DEFTLEFTHAND

Until I achieve all my goals in life I won't be proud of anything. National pride and national identity mean very little to me. I'm in this life for myself.

Hunchback

Proud to be 'white' almost indicates supremacism because white people are infrequently crapped on for being white ( in this neck of the woods ).

being Irish is slightly different. We have been conquered on more than one occasion and discriminated against on the basis of our nationality. Maybe this gives validation to being proud to be Irish?

Personally, I just like being Irish, cuz it's easy, it's familiar, and by and large I believe we are a good spirited people. Thats why I'm proud.


I also really love my Polish friends. But they are all, without exception, extremely distrustful of other Poles. Point being; it's not necessarily a given that you are proud of your nationality simply because it's where you were born.

jive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

I love being white. I really do.

Kylo Ren

I'm proud of my friend Roger. He can run fast, like real fast. He is also pretty good at the hula-hoop and reads to less privileged kids on the weekend. God I love Roger.

TanG411

Irish are underdogs.

But full of begrudgry and hypocrisy.

AnamGlas

ThinksAmoral wrote: »

Irish are underdogs.

But full of begrudgry and hypocrisy.

Least we're best in the world at something

DjFlin

ThinksAmoral wrote: »

Irish are underdogs.

But full of begrudgry and hypocrisy.

I begrudge that comment :mad:


:pac:

Terry

later10 wrote: »

TL; DR: This thread is not about encouraging racial pride, it's about the misguidedness of nationalism.

This evening I was reading an article on the Luas about the public finances, and an elderly man beside me, who I had been chatting with casually, mentioned that the country was gone to the dogs (actually he used more colourful language). Naturally, I agreed, because as another miserable old Irishman once said 'old men have a right to their anger'.

As we sat waiting on the Luas, he started telling me about the College of Surgeons and the pockmarks on it from the 1916 rising. Now we were getting into republicanism. And then he expressed an opinion that I cannot understand, he said he was still "proud to be Irish"

This term angers me because I don't see how it can be any more acceptable to be proud to be Irish than proud to be European, or even proud to be white. What sort of gratification can really be taken from what was, after all, a mere accident of birth, an ethnic identity?

Now this man was about 80, and I'm not going to be so impertinent as to criticise an 80 year old stranger. But the very fact that this sort of sentiment is deemed perfectly acceptable - praiseworthy, even - is what bothers me.

To shamelessly pilfer one user's signature, is it not the case that "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it" (George Bernard Shaw)

What do boards users think, would any of you describe yourselves as 'proud to be Irish'? And why do you think that nationality is something from which you can derive some pride?

I'm proud to be Irish.
If you feel ashamed to be Irish, then you have your own problems, and should probably check out the PI forum.
I was going to say that if you don't care about being Irish and white, then you have nothing to worry about. However, because you started this thread, I'm of the opinion that you may have some psychological problems relating to your ancestry.

I suggest that you stop listening to early 90's rap and see a psychiatrist.
This may help you overcome your feelings of guilt about being White and Irish.

If that doesn't work, then you should read up on the Cromwellian era.
Mutha fukka (in terminology you may understand) sold Irish people as slaves back in the dayo.

Just as your homies in Compton are the ancestors of slaves, so are the ginger haired niggas of the Caribbean.


Proud to be white? Don't really care about that.
I'm happy that my ancestors ****ed some Neanderthals and gave me my awesome gingerness, but I don't really care about skin colour after that.

Word!

Pure Sound

I would consider myself proud to be Irish, it is not out of the hate for somewhere else, it is about being proud of my friends and family and how lucky I am to have them. I like my life and the fact that I was born and raised here is a significant part of that. I understand what you mean tho OP

Micky Dolenz

zuroph wrote: »

Proud to be me. Everything else is bull****.

Too right.

I'm proud to be you too.

Bipolar Joe

I'm not proud. It's not like I made a choice, I had no say in the matter. You can't be individually proud of something you had absolutely nothing to do with. "I'm so proud of Linus Torvalds for inventing Linux." Why? Didn't have sh!t to do with me.

EDIT: Also, this "You aren't proud so that means you are ashamed!" bullsh!t is absurd. It's not a case of you are with us or against us. Some people don't give a crap either way.

biko

I guess you can be proud of what your family and lineage has achieved through hard work and be happy to be Irish but being born white is just pure "luck", no achievement in itself.

*Luck isn't the right word but that's all I can think of this late.

Terry

biko wrote: »

I guess you can be proud of what your family and lineage has achieved through hard work and be happy to be Irish but being born white is just pure "luck", no achievement in itself.

*Luck isn't the right word but that's all I can think of this late.

Oh my God.
Biko just said that being born White is lucky.
That means he thinks that being born Black is unlucky.

I call racism.
String him up and so forth!!!!!!!!

Pure Sound

biko wrote: »

I guess you can be proud of what your family and lineage has achieved through hard work and be happy to be Irish but being born white is just pure "luck", no achievement in itself.

*Luck isn't the right word but that's all I can think of this late.

I reckon "Chance" would be a better word, as Terry said luck makes it sound like the white race is superior which I'm sure you don't mean

amacachi

Looking forward to kev_ps3 getting in.

Faith+1

later10 wrote: »

And then he expressed an opinion that I cannot understand, he said he was still "proud to be Irish"
This term angers me because I don't see how it can be any more acceptable to be proud to be Irish than proud to be European, or even proud to be white.

Go back to China!!!

Micky Dolenz

Life is a game of luck. I have loads of luck, all bad.

Terry

We Need Community wrote: »

I reckon "Chance" would be a better word, as Terry said luck makes it sound like the white race is superior which I'm sure you don't mean

No. He meant Luck.

He pretends to be a an anti-apartheid activist. All the while he is exploiting a Nordic looking girl (see his avatar for reference) for his own pleasure.

Sea Sharp

I assumed from the title that this thread would go the opposite route with later10 arguing that surely being proud to be white is OK because it's the same as being proud to be Irish.

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of nationalism so long as it's not used as an excuse for oppressing other nationalities.
It is irrational when you break it down, but then again so is having a favorite football team.

Also, there's nothing wrong with being proud to be white.

starviewadams

Doesn't mean a damn thing to me,I didn't and wouldn't choose to be from here if I had the choice now.

gbee

If we ALL had pride, there would be no racism, northside southside, litter, obnoxious parking, balied out banks.

The Scientician

As an adult you can have pride in your nation or your community, if you strive to make a positive contribution to it.

later12

Terry wrote: »

I'm proud to be Irish.
If you feel ashamed to be Irish, then you have your own problems, and should probably check out the PI forum.

Why do you think that failure to jump on the nationalism bandwagon is a personal issue? I reckon it's a PI matter for those who feel the need to validate their identity through dead ancestors and collectivism.

you may have some psychological problems relating to your ancestry.

I don't; the point is that I couldn't give a fuck who I'm related to, or whose townland I grew up on, or whose county I lived in, or whose Grandad once voted for whose Grandad in a general election. In short, I don't relate to any of it.

I'm just questioning how others can, and indeed, can feel proud about, as though it was something they had a part in.

I suggest that you stop listening to early 90's rap

Just as your homies in Compton are the ancestors of slaves, so are the ginger haired niggas of the Caribbean.

Word!

What are you even talking about??? At least make it funny.

Pompey Magnus

Pride: A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired

I would think the highlighted parts of the definition could be used to explain a pride in one's nationality.

As far as nationality being just an accident of birth, that may be the case, but what plausible source of pride does not ultimately trace itself back to an accident of birth? From a Gonzaga student getting full marks in the Leaving Cert to a Kenyan 10,000m champion, their achievements can be largely traced back to an accident of birth whereby a change in certain factors in their upbringing or genetics, factors which they had no control over, would have meant their achievements could not have happened. Everything we do and achieve is just an accident of birth.

There are certain traits that are recognised abroad as being particularly "Irish". Plenty of Irish people live up to these qualities and I find it is these people who are most proud of their nationality. I tend to find that Irish people who don't fit with what is considered stereotypically Irish are the ones who look down on the pride felt by others.

My attitude is that I don't think anyone has the right say that someone shouldn't be proud that the qualities which define them as a person are qualities which are respected and admired abroad.

Biscuits.

Being proud of something you haven't achieved yourself is idiotic.

Chuck Stone

Worry not L10.

The concept of national identity will most likely be viewed as a curious period in human history in the future.

For the moment just enjoy it when 'we' win at sports - it's a really good feeling.

bayern282

There are Irish people who are up themselves because of their accents and birth places, never understood this, no human who's ever walked the earth chose to be born anywhere.

If you were born in China to the same Irish parents would you be any less Irish ?, I don't think so.

We also like to think that we're as different to the English/British as the Chinese or Chileans are, as divisive and derisive as the term may be, we are geographical and cultural ''West Brits'', ie; language, judicial system, political system, UK footy teams, TV, even the aesthetic look of an Irish town or city resembles an English one more than a Continental mainland one.

Hank_Jones

I'm proud to be my father's son.

Best man I know.

The King of Moo

I agree that it's a bit silly to feel proud of something you've no choice in, but I think I understand why people here find it easier to feel proud to be Irish than to be white.

When many people say they're proud to be Irish, they don't just mean they're proud to have been born within our borders. They're thinking of a whole range of signifiers such as an underdog attitude, a good sense of humour, a fine literary heritage and so on.
Even if these things don't apply to themselves or even to the country as a whole, it gives them an identity to belong to, and that gives comfort.

But in Ireland being white can't give you that same sense of belonging because for most of our history it's been too much the norm and therefore doesn't carry any signifiers. Being white doesn't mean anything to us as we've almost always all been white. We've had nothing to define our whiteness against and therefore whiteness never meant anything to us. It just is. But we could define our Irishness against the other nationalities around us, especially the British. Whiteness never came into our conception of Irishness as they were basically white too. So it was easier to construct an identity around our nationality rather than our skin colour, as it was our nationality that made us different.

To adjust the old thought experiment slightly: imagine you're a white swan who's never seen a black swan. You don't think of yourself as a white swan as being white is something you consider to be intrinsic to being a swan. Then one day you see a black swan and think "He's a black swan and I'm a white swan!"
So it's hard to create an identity around something you take for granted, and therefore hard to have a sense of pride in it, be it a genuine or constructed sense.

Pure Sound

Biscuits. wrote: »

Being proud of something you haven't achieved yourself is idiotic.

How is it idiotic? Can you not be proud of your friends and family or even other people. We have no control of where we are born but where you grow up can largely affect the type of character you are, what your beliefs are, perspective about different things, your social life, the music you listen to etc, By saying that you are not proud of being Irish you are kind of saying you are not proud of yourself and your surroundings. Saying that you are Proud to be Irish is to me just a simple way of summing these character building things up.

Bodhisopha

We Need Community wrote: »

How is it idiotic? Can you not be proud of your friends and family or even other people. We have no control of where we are born but where you grow up can largely affect the type of character you are, what your beliefs are, perspective about different things, your social life, the music you listen to etc, By saying that you are not proud of being Irish you are kind of saying you are not proud of yourself and your surroundings. Saying that you are Proud to be Irish is to me just a simple way of summing these character building things up.

Without pride in these character building things, there would be no community. We need community.

Temptamperu

I wouldnt say im proud to be Irish. I am happy i am but not proud.

grenache

As stated many times before, nationality is an accident of birth. I wouldn't say i'm proud to be Irish, as i did not choose to be Irish. But that's my nationality and it's fine, i could be Russian or Saudi!!

the same applies to being white/latino/black/asian. Why would you be proud of it when you didn't choose to be it in the first place!

Chuck Stone

Anecdote time.

When I was a kid our cat was sick so we brought him to the vet. Anyhoo the lady at the vet says 'what's his name'? and my Ma says 'Bob' and the receptionist says 'what's his surname'?...

I thought 'huh? he doesn't have a surname, he's a cat, he's just Bob!' but my Ma says 'Bob Stone' I was kinda shocked and found it hilarious all at once. I laughed out loud and thought 'Bob is one of us - he's in the family Stone and he's not even the same species'!

Well it's a bit like that isn't it?


*Gets coat*

Pure Sound

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Without pride in these character building things, there would be no community. We need community.

Not sure if you are taking the piss as it is a valid point :pac: