Fianna Fail still in terminal decline

Slideshowbob

Listening to Micheal Martin this morning on Morning Ireland was sickening.

The continued arrogance of the man.

He still doesn't get it.

FF are too afraid to field a Presidential candidate, when in fact they should, and be contrite as part of the election process, and absolve their sins through the campaign!!

MM was then asked about reduction in special needs teachers - all he could do was go on about what he did in 1998!! Too much water under the bridge since Micheal!

FF's terminal decline will continue with this attitude Micheal - have you learned nothing from the errors of Brian Cowan?

Fr Tod Umptious

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Listening to Micheal Martin this morning on Morning Ireland was sickening.

The continued arrogance of the man.

He still doesn't get it.

FF are too afraid to field a Presidential candidate, when in fact they should, and be contrite as part of the election process, and absolve their sins through the campaign!!

MM was then asked about reduction in special needs teachers - all he could do was go on about what he did in 1998!! Too much water under the bridge since Micheal!

FF's terminal decline will continue with this attitude Micheal - have you learned nothing from the errors of Brian Cowan?

Though the very same myself while listening to him.

I think it was suggested that for FF to renew themselves they have to elect a leader that was not a minister throughout the whole 1997 to 2011 period.

They really need to purge themselves of all involved between 1997 and 2011, any TDs that were part of that should be sent to the far side of the back benches and never heard of again, and that includes Martin, that is the only way they will be taken seriously again.

As for a presidential election candidate Crowley should have been nominated and as you say 'contribute to the election process'.

As an MEP Crowley would have been free of a lot of the baggage that came with the 1997 to 2011 years and although he would not have won he would have been palatable to many.

A serious misjudgement by the FF top brass to ignore him and proceed to courting Gaybo.

Son Of A Vidic

I'll shed no tears for Fianna Fail and their decline. But I have no doubt if you leave the current crowd in power for long enough, they will descend to the same level.

Zubeneschamali

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think it was suggested that for FF to renew themselves they have to elect a leader that was not a minister throughout the whole 1997 to 2011 period.

That would be step 1.

Step 2 would be to invent some principles or core values for the party, as corruption, cronyism and financial mismanagement are no longer in fashion and they have nothing else.

JonathanAnon

Yeah I thought Martin's performance was fairly patchethic and disingenuous as well.. I mean they had O'Cuiv along side him, who we're now expected to believe on board with the decision not to run a candidate.. And when queried about how he directly approached Gay Bryne himself (instead of getting an intermediary), he said "oh this is the new way of doing things".. so we are to believe this action was demonstrative of a new wave of forthrightness, honesty and transparency by the FF party??? Unfortunately Michael then went on to give a completely disingenuous reason for not running a Presidential candidate...

If he had come out and said "look, we know any candidate we put forward would get massacred, and from a financial point of view we cant afford it" I would have had a lot more respect for him...

angelfire9

Oh for God's sake
This is getting old

Yes the country is in the crapper
BUT
So is most of the Western world
The US economy is in the sink
The UK isn't much better
Greece, Portugal, Italy & most of the EU are in recession

This is a global issue
FF did NOT make the recession happen in Ireland

Some of their policy decisions in hindsight were not helpful
BUT
The Bank Guarantee would have worked alot better if the bloody bankers hadn't lied through their teeth at every opportunity
The Financial Regulator deserved to be hung drawn & quartered not given a golden handshake! :mad:
Fingleton & Drumm should be under house arrest not off swanning around like they are innocent poor lads who just "got caught up in things"

As for the presential election:


FF cannot run a presidential candidate in 2011
Financially we cannot afford it as a party,
Objectively we haven't a snowball's chance of getting a candidate elected in the current anti FF climate
Realistically there are alot more important issues for the party to concentrate on for the next few years to get ourselves in order

Dannyboy83

angelfire9 wrote: »

Oh for God's sake
FF did NOT make the recession happen in Ireland
[snip].
.
.
.
Financially we cannot afford it as a party,
Objectively we haven't a snowball's chance of getting a candidate elected in the current anti FF climate

The only people who continue to delude themselves that Fianna Fail did not make the recession in Ireland - are FF members.

This speaks volumes libraries.

Liam Byrne

angelfire9 wrote: »

Some of their policy decisions in hindsight were not helpful
BUT
The Bank Guarantee would have worked alot better if the bloody bankers hadn't lied through their teeth at every opportunity
The Financial Regulator deserved to be hung drawn & quartered not given a golden handshake! :mad:
Fingleton & Drumm should be under house arrest not off swanning around like they are innocent poor lads who just "got caught up in things"

There was no need for hindsight; Ahern's contempt for those warning him (the ones that he wondered about re suicide) is well known, and he repeatedly pretends that they don't exist / never warned him despite apologising for what he said to them.

The Government should have checked that the banks were telling the truth, or put a clause into the guarantee that's standard in any insurance contract - if you lie, all bets are off.

The Financial Regulator was appointed "because he was Bertie's friend", as stated directly by Ahern himself; so again, the buck stops with FF & Bertie.

There has been no genuine effort in going after Fingleton & Drumm (and Ahern and others)

So stop making excuses for your party. They are significantly to blame, and made the worldwide crisis affect this country far, far worse than it should and would have.

Zubeneschamali

angelfire9 wrote: »

Oh for God's sake

FF did NOT make the recession happen in Ireland
Some of their policy decisions in hindsight were not helpful
...
FF cannot run a presidential candidate in 2011
Financially we cannot afford it as a party,

I love how the FF that ran the economy off a cliff is "they", and the poor FF who can't afford to run a candidate is "we".

MrFutureLeader

Hi Everybody,

I have to agree with some of the statements, listening to Michael Martin is fast like listening to an out-of-tune monotone radio, it's just the same dribble drabble time and again.

I am not blaming the FF party just for the economy because I think over individuals and countries also had a hand in the problems.

What the party needs and what the country needs is for someone to first come out on behalf of others and Apologise for the problems in the past.

Second we need a real leader, someone with some real passion and enthisium for the country and politics itself and can actually stand up and fight their corner or the parties corner.

We need a young dynamic leader with some creative solutions and ideas not for today but for the future.

Hail the grassroots movement...

EggsAckley

MrFutureLeader wrote: »

Hail the grassroots movement...

Useless good for nothings. Apparently

MrFutureLeader

Don't listen to Bertie, His the past it's time to look to the future, we should be encouraging the grassroots. The more people who get interested in the party and politics in general the better the discussions and the direction the country can go in.

Imhof Tank

MrFutureLeader wrote: »

. The more people who get interested in the party the better .

Yes, but how could any sane person be interested in a party with no policies (apart from the attainment and retention of power)?

moomooman

I was laughing listening to MM this morning. FF need to just accept that their brand of politics is the old ireland of cute-hoores, nepotism and cronyism, party first, country second and just move on.

Plenty of countries dont have the problems we have. Places with better systems, accountability, regulation and a more refined political culture rather than the tribalism and government by teachers/lawyers we are stuck with.

MrFutureLeader

Thats why I said the party should get a new, young, dynamic leader with some creative ideas and put some new ideas and new policies out their for the party to discuss and share opinions and debate.

Regards

who the fug

Must see what odds Paddy Power are giving of FF being in power next election, bet they won't be long.

Imhof Tank

MrFutureLeader wrote: »

Thats why I said the party should get a new, young, dynamic leader with some creative ideas and put some new ideas and new policies out their for the party to discuss and share opinions and debate.

Regards

Well whats the point of persevering with the old party if in that case? Better to just rip it up and start again.

The very concepts of FF and "dynamic young types with creative ideas" are mutually exclusive.

The nearest to what you describe would be someone like Richard Boyd Barrett. Yes, his ideas may be off the wall, but he is passionate about what he believes in evidently.

Now why would a guy like that have any interest in FF?

Zubeneschamali

MrFutureLeader wrote: »

new ideas and new policies out their for the party to discuss and share opinions and debate.

Got any suggestions? Left of FG? Right of Labour? On what basis can such a party oppose a Labour-FG coalition?

A Republican party? With the Good Friday agreement in place, what is there to be Republican about?

For the little guy, against big business/farmers?

Sorry, the little guy doesn't trust you anymore.

What else have you got?

StupidLikeAFox

angelfire9 wrote: »

FF did NOT make the recession happen in Ireland

Dont be silly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM

Seriously, just watching reeling in the years shows that as far back as 2004 the EU were warning Ireland about their economic policies, every single other EU finance minister agreed they were being reckless. Charlie McCreevys answer - "Maybe they should follow our lead"

who the fug

Did I just hear right

Mary Harney said Tax cuts would keep inflation down :eek:

RonMexico

FF should disband. Public implosion of the party is more entertaining however.

Het-Field

angelfire9 wrote: »

Oh for God's sake
This is getting old

I agree. In fairness, FF are an opposition party now, and their executive power is absent. Beating the drum about FF failings is going to do nothing at this point

angelfire9 wrote: »

Yes the country is in the crapper
BUT
So is most of the Western world
The US economy is in the sink
The UK isn't much better
Greece, Portugal, Italy & most of the EU are in recession

Several of Europe's biggest countries returned to growth in August 2009. The Economist ran articles on the same with regard to France and Germany.

The fact of the matter is, our economy is almost as bad as Greece's. The embarrassing thing is that when our economy is spoken of in the same breath as Greece, were are being compared to a country which it is almost universally accepted, should have been denied entry into the Eurozone. We are more of a basket case than many European Economies, and it is the truth that when our problems bottom out, they will bottom out at a level far deeper than that of other basket case economies.

angelfire9 wrote: »

This is a global issue
FF did NOT make the recession happen in Ireland

But they blithely kicked McCreevy to touch when he being speaking of fiscal rectitude in 2003. Cowen's appointment coincides with a time when Ireland decided to move away from a sustainable economic model, to an economy based on windfall taxes. These windfall taxes were most lucrative in the property sector (Stamp Duty, VAT, Capital Gains Tax), and to collect these taxes Cowen and Bertie chose to incentivise the creation of a property bubble. This was aided and abetted by the Irish Banks, who wantonly binged on the cheap credit available from EU states, which was not available prior to 1999. Property Bubbles have been experienced before. The most notable occurring in Japan. The outcomes were untimately very similar.

This once of funding was then used to fuel a massive state spending binge, with some economists estimating a 10% increase in state expenditure per annum between 2004-2007. That was Brian Cowen's and Bertie Ahern's job. If you recall Bertie's famous statement in 2005 regarding his socialist tendancies, he was probably right.

Yes it was global, but the reason we are more in the poop than any other European Economy is due to us enjoying the longest and hardest party. This party was held in the name of electoral gain in 2007.

angelfire9 wrote: »

Some of their policy decisions in hindsight were not helpful

They were downright detrimental.

BUT

angelfire9 wrote: »

The Bank Guarantee would have worked alot better if the bloody bankers hadn't lied through their teeth at every opportunity

The Bank guarantee was never going to work. Guaranteeing large scale private debt, in a belt and braces fashion made no sense, and will never make sense. A belt and braces guarantee should have been afforded to the banks for a period of three months (with the option to extend). Within these three months a rigorous stress test should have been undertaken, and the contents of the bank's loan books should have been considered. A judicious decision could then have been taken before Christmas 2008 as to what should be done. If more time was needed, a projected time frame could have been agreed, and the original guarantee could have been extended for that time. The long term blanket guarantee caused the Government to enter a state of paralysis between September 2008 and April 2009 (when NAMA was announced). That was simply not acceptable considering the difficulties which arose, and the importance of remedial action.

angelfire9 wrote: »

The Financial Regulator deserved to be hung drawn & quartered not given a golden handshake! :mad:

That is hyperbole. The fact that the Financial Regulator was established by an act of Parliment, means that the Regulator comes under the remit of the Government, and failings by the regulator must bee see as failings of the State.

angelfire9 wrote: »

Fingleton & Drumm should be under house arrest not off swanning around like they are innocent poor lads who just "got caught up in things":

More hyperbole. Of course I would agree with you, but that does not negate the hyperbole.

As for the presential election:

angelfire9 wrote: »

FF cannot run a presidential candidate in 2011
Financially we cannot afford it as a party,
Objectively we haven't a snowball's chance of getting a candidate elected in the current anti FF climate
Realistically there are alot more important issues for the party to concentrate on for the next few years to get ourselves in order

One of the things which I have been impressed with by FF has been a graduated willingness to accept their failings during their time in Government. It has been slow, it has been staggered, and in some cases it has led to conflicting responses to questions of the media. What you have proffered is directly from the FF Local Election 2009 handbook, which was essentially a refusal of all responsibility, and a denial of any internal factors which caused our difficulties. FF had not factored in the greter dissemination of information through the internet, and the general decline in the personal circumstances of most of the country. The 2011 General Election was fought from a position of great disadvantage, as in a floundering attempt to save the party Brian Cowen managed to end the life of the Government. FF fought the election on the basis of alleged differences between FG/Lab, and it simply didnt work.

The immediate response to the poor election concerned me. From Sean Dorgan's perfunctory response of "lessons learned", to Dick Roche's election agent's swipe at jeering opponants, FF did not respond with contrition or sorry. John O'Donoghue's comments about "irony" were also likely to inflame and annoy, which they did. Since then, it has got a little better.

The Presidential election is a Catch 22 for FF. If they run, they utilise all remaining party resources, rely on a reputedly emaciated grass-roots to canvass, and run the risk of further demoralisation in which emperical evidence of unpopularity is proffered for the world to see. If they dont run, the remove themselves from any relevance in terms of the race, they will recieve no media coverage, and it will deprive them of a opportunity to potentially give the Government a bloody nose.

Essentially, FF are in a bad a position as they have ever been. Since 2004, they have lost 63 Dail Seats, 1 seat in the European Parliment, 160 County Council Seats, a plethora of town council seats, and they are on course to lose the Aras, without making an attempt to retain it. They have also lost Brian Lenihan (RIP), who could have been a very competent performer in opposition.

Martin needs to start speaking to the Grass Roots more robustly. An informal, media-less Ard Fheis must be held. The Flood report must be implemented in an attempt to compete with the scaled down size of the party.

Sierra Oscar

Slideshowbob wrote: »

FF are too afraid to field a Presidential candidate, when in fact they should, and be contrite as part of the election process, and absolve their sins through the campaign!!

Originally I would have been in favour of the party fielding a candidate, but in latter weeks I really started to recognise that to do so would be pointless. The public mood towards FF is still very much toxic and that will not have changed hugely before October. FF has to work to win back the confidence of the Irish people - and the ground work still needs to be undertaken. There is little point contesting the election considering an FF candidate would most certainly not come within reach of winning the election. No point just putting more debt on the shoulders of the party for the sake of contesting an election - we will leave that to SF if they so wish.

There is a lot of work actually going on within FF at the moment (sorry, I know the ABFF naysayers will be disappointed to hear this). The structure of the entire organisation is being examined and necessary changes are in the pipeline to ensure the revitalisation of the party can get underway. The neglect that the actual organisation has suffered over the last decade or so is finally being addressed. There is a huge amount of issues to be discussed before the Ard Fheis next Spring alongside the formation of new policy for the party. In a sense the presidential election would have been a huge distraction from the work that needs to be done now, and at least the work within the organisation itself can now continue unhindered until the Ard Fheis in spring.

Also, lets not forget that there is a byelection to fight for in Dublin West - and I can assure you, FF will come out fighting.

Het-Field wrote: »

Martin needs to start speaking to the Grass Roots more robustly. An informal, media-less Ard Fheis must be held.

To be fair, Martin is already 3/4's of the way through a national tour of every constituency in the country and that process is continuing. And an Ard Fheis is scheduled to be held in the Spring, and that will be very much a frank discussion affair.

GSF

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Also, lets not forget that there is a byelection to fight for in Dublin West - and I can assure you, FF will come out fighting.

The last thing people in D15 want is a bunch of fighting FFers on their doorsteps at Halloween.:p

nacho libre

At least Martin won't have to worried about people in his cabinet scheming to take his job. It is going to take a mammoth pr job for fianna fail to turn around their fortunes. I wonder could we see Fianna Fail becoming more anti-eu in their tone to try to curry favour with the public?

Het-Field

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Originally I would have been in favour of the party fielding a candidate, but in latter weeks I really started to recognise that to do so would be pointless. The public mood towards FF is still very much toxic and that will not have changed hugely before October. FF has to work to win back the confidence of the Irish people - and the ground work still needs to be undertaken. There is little point contesting the election considering an FF candidate would most certainly not come within reach of winning the election. No point just putting more debt on the shoulders of the party for the sake of contesting an election - we will leave that to SF if they so wish.

The flipside is that FF have just excluded themselves from the debate. They have NO role to play in it. The Parties will bat behind their own candidates, while the likes of Mary Davis and Sean Gallagher will attend every debate in their personal capacity. No FF representative will get air-time. This will also be detrimental in relation to their slim chance of retaining Lenihan's seat.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There is a lot of work actually going on within FF at the moment (sorry, I know the ABFF naysayers will be disappointed to hear this). The structure of the entire organisation is being examined and necessary changes are in the pipeline to ensure the revitalisation of the party can get underway. The neglect that the actual organisation has suffered over the last decade or so is finally being addressed. There is a huge amount of issues to be discussed before the Ard Fheis next Spring alongside the formation of new policy for the party. In a sense the presidential election would have been a huge distraction from the work that needs to be done now, and at least the work within the organisation itself can now continue unhindered until the Ard Fheis in spring.

Also, lets not forget that there is a byelection to fight for in Dublin West - and I can assure you, FF will come out fighting.



To be fair, Martin is already 3/4's of the way through a national tour of every constituency in the country and that process is continuing. And an Ard Fheis is scheduled to be held in the Spring, and that will be very much a frank discussion affair.

Personally, I am glad to hear that. A proper opposition is required, which picks holes in Government policy when required, as opposed to the ULA/Ming Flanagan style populist. However, a failure to run a candidate in the presidential election does smack of FF suggesting that the organisation is far too weak to do anything at this point.

Zubeneschamali

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Also, lets not forget that there is a byelection to fight for in Dublin West - and I can assure you, FF will come out fighting.

With each other, like in the Presidential election?

Sierra Oscar

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

With each other, like in the Presidential election?

I have yet to come across someone in FF who thinks a candidate should not be run in the by-election.

It is a total different scenario to the presidential election and its silly to try and compare the two, in my view.

Zubeneschamali

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is a total different scenario to the presidential election and its silly to try and compare the two, in my view.

I don't see a big difference in principle, McGuinness will be crucified at the polls, the same way a presidential candidate would have been. I suppose it will cost less, but it's still money FF don't have down the tubes.

Labour will win, FG and the Socialist party will both beat FF, but what about Sinn Fein? Will FF be beaten into 5th place?

Kinski

I don't know how any of Fianna Fail's remaining supporters can be expecting the party to bounce-back ahead of the next GE. The fact that the leadership's failure to forward a candidate for the presidential election (an election no FF candidate could realistically hope to win) has provoked a round of in-fighting, in which many members appear to be turning on their 'popular' new leader Martin, exposes just how dysfunctional the party's internal politics are.

These people are clearly struggling to come to terms with the party's electoral collapse. And FF are no longer in a position to reward supporters with favours, positions on state boards, etc. Meanwhile, Martin has already managed to piss away the goodwill (or, properly, soft ride) he was receiving from the mainstream Irish media. Fianna Fail are finished as a major political force in this country, and I hope the level of coverage they recieve in the media is reduced soon to reflect that.

Sierra Oscar

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't see a big difference in principle, McGuinness will be crucified at the polls, the same way a presidential candidate would have been. I suppose it will cost less, but it's still money FF don't have down the tubes.

Labour will win, FG and the Socialist party will both beat FF, but what about Sinn Fein? Will FF be beaten into 5th place?

Its different because no other party has the amount of work to undertake behind the scenes that FF has to now in terms of getting the organisation back on some sort of stable footing. That work needs to be done now and needs the undivided attention of the entire party - trying to run a national campaign would take from that process.

Kinski wrote: »

I don't know how any of Fianna Fail's remaining supporters can be expecting the party to bounce-back ahead of the next GE. The fact that the leadership's failure to forward a candidate for the presidential election (an election no FF candidate could realistically hope to win) has provoked a round of in-fighting, in which many members appear to be turning on their 'popular' new leader Martin, exposes just how dysfunctional the party's internal politics are.

I think its a misconception to even think that the ordinary FF member thinks the party will stage some sort of awe inducing comeback after the next GE. The level headed member realizes the enormous task that lays ahead in returning the party to power.

These people are clearly struggling to come to terms with the party's electoral collapse. And FF are no longer in a position to reward supporters with favours, positions on state boards, etc.

Again - that's another huge misconception, the members that have stuck with FF now are in it for the long haul. We are better off without those people who jumped ship when they realized that the likes of FG and Labour would be in government next. FG & Labour are welcome to such members, because it was that kind of member that did monumental damage to FF. We do not need members who are just in it for personal gain. The party is better off without such members in the long run. Besides it is not as if the current government will be creating any quangos to pile their members into!

Also, this rubbish circulating around that FF members were all rewarded with positions on lucrative boards and the likes is just that . . . rubbish. I have been a FF member for years and I have never been on a state board!

Zubeneschamali

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I have been a FF member for years and I have never been on a state board!

Can you please tell us what you think the party should stand for? In general terms, like left-right, urban/rural, pro/anti business, low tax or high services, stance on the North, Britain, Europe, UN, neutrality etc.

Kinski

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I think its a misconception to even think that the ordinary FF member thinks the party will stage some sort of awe inducing comeback after the next GE. The level headed member realizes the enormous task that lays ahead in returning the party to power.

They're out there.

Again - that's another huge misconception, the members that have stuck with FF now are in it for the long haul. We are better off without those people who jumped ship when they realized that the likes of FG and Labour would be in government next. FG & Labour are welcome to such members, because it was that kind of member that did monumental damage to FF. We do not need members who are just in it for personal gain. The party is better off without such members in the long run.

Besides it is not as if the current government will be creating any quangos to pile their members into!

Of course they will. My point is that I think it unlikely FF will ever regain its erstwhile position as one of Ireland's two main parties. Handing out goodies and favours was part of the strategy which allowed it to sustain such a large and active support base, which in turn helped win elections (which in turn meant FF was in a position to hand out the goodies and favours again.) Now it's FG and Labour who will be doing that.

Also, this rubbish circulating around that FF members were all rewarded with positions on lucrative boards and the likes is just that . . . rubbish. I have been a FF member for years and I have never been on a state board!

I never suggested that every member of FF benefited. But I think it was probably a crucial means by which FF could attract and retain supporters whom it considered particularly important.

There may be plenty of diehard FFers left, who will ensure that the party keeps trundling along, but that in itself is not enough to return it to its former levels of popularity.

Sierra Oscar

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Can you please tell us what you think the party should stand for? In general terms, like left-right, urban/rural, pro/anti business, low tax or high services, stance on the North, Britain, Europe, UN, neutrality etc.

What is the fixation with placing ones self to the far sides of the political spectrum - do you really have to be entirely left or entirely right? Can you try and create a working policy which amalgamates the best of both sides?

Anyway personally I believe that FF should strive to continue the social advances which it has advocated since the inception of the party. Quick example - in the past FF have been responsible for widening access to education for the people of the republic, have been responsible for implementing social schemes to ensure that those who before could not afford to attend third level education could finally do so . . . these sort of social advances must continue. I guess from that you could say that in a sense I believe FF should be left leaning - but I think its important to recognise that its only possible to make such advances if you have a strong and stable economy. You cannot make social advances based on a shell of an economy. In that way FF needs to be open to pro-business policies in order to ensure we as a republic are in a strong position to continue these social advances. Although you cannot be so pro-business that you let regulation be weakened to such an extent that you see the likes of property bubbles emerging which end up wrecking havok on the republic when they burst. You need balance.

In regards Europe, I think the EU has been a great mechanism in the past for driving social change in Ireland and that Ireland has benefited hugely through its membership of the union. However I do not like the steps the Union is now taking in regards federalisation. I think that if FF really is a republican party then it must oppose the steps that the EU is now taking in regards further federalisation.

With regards Northern Ireland, I think FF should organize in the North. The achievement of unity in Ireland is a central part of the FF constitution and I believe that if FF does not organize in the North then the party cannot be in a position to bring about this unity. The ground work has been laid in the North in so far as Ogra FF was launched there in 2007 but has been greatly neglected since. Its time to support Ogra in the North and take the next steps by fully mobilising the party in the North with the aim of contesting elections in the future.

Just my very, very, brief 2cents.

Kinski wrote: »

Handing out goodies and favours was part of the strategy which allowed it to sustain such a large and active support base, which in turn helped win elections (which in turn meant FF was in a position to hand out the goodies and favours again.) Now it's FG and Labour who will be doing that.

I never thought that was the case myself - but FG & Labour will not be in a position to give out many goodies considering the state that the economy is in. So in that way I think you may be greatly overestimating the benefits of being in government will have for FG & Labour and the disadvantages it will have for FF.

Zubeneschamali

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

What is the fixation with placing ones self in boxes - do you have to be entirely left or entirely right? Can you try and create a working policy which amalgamates the best of both sides?

Thanks for your post, I am trying to figure out what it is that FF supporters think the party represents.

I don't believe things have to be all left, or all right. For example, the current Government is precisely what you think FF should be: a coalition of a centre-left and centre-right party trying to amalgamate the best of both sides.

Matt Holck

I'm not a fan of the politically spectrum paradigm

Dionysus

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Listening to Micheal Martin this morning on Morning Ireland was sickening.

The continued arrogance of the man.

He still doesn't get it.

FF are too afraid to field a Presidential candidate, when in fact they should, and be contrite as part of the election process, and absolve their sins through the campaign!!

MM was then asked about reduction in special needs teachers - all he could do was go on about what he did in 1998!! Too much water under the bridge since Micheal!

FF's terminal decline will continue with this attitude Micheal - have you learned nothing from the errors of Brian Cowan?

Although he did remind me that he and other senior Fianna Fáil ministers voluntarily returned their severance pay, while Enda Kenny and other senior Fine Gael politicians did not return their severance pay from the last time they were in government. The man has a point. Why haven't they?

Matt Holck

maybe they don't have money and entitlement

Het-Field

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

What is the fixation with placing ones self to the far sides of the political spectrum - do you really have to be entirely left or entirely right? Can you try and create a working policy which amalgamates the best of both sides?

Anyway personally I believe that FF should strive to continue the social advances which it has advocated since the inception of the party. Quick example - in the past FF have been responsible for widening access to education for the people of the republic, have been responsible for implementing social schemes to ensure that those who before could not afford to attend third level education could finally do so . . . these sort of social advances must continue. I guess from that you could say that in a sense I believe FF should be left leaning - but I think its important to recognise that its only possible to make such advances if you have a strong and stable economy. You cannot make social advances based on a shell of an economy. In that way FF needs to be open to pro-business policies in order to ensure we as a republic are in a strong position to continue these social advances. Although you cannot be so pro-business that you let regulation be weakened to such an extent that you see the likes of property bubbles emerging which end up wrecking havok on the republic when they burst. You need balance.

In regards Europe, I think the EU has been a great mechanism in the past for driving social change in Ireland and that Ireland has benefited hugely through its membership of the union. However I do not like the steps the Union is now taking in regards federalisation. I think that if FF really is a republican party then it must oppose the steps that the EU is now taking in regards further federalisation.

With regards Northern Ireland, I think FF should organize in the North. The achievement of unity in Ireland is a central part of the FF constitution and I believe that if FF does not organize in the North then the party cannot be in a position to bring about this unity. The ground work has been laid in the North in so far as Ogra FF was launched there in 2007 but has been greatly neglected since. Its time to support Ogra in the North and take the next steps by fully mobilising the party in the North with the aim of contesting elections in the future.

Just my very, very, brief 2cents.



I never thought that was the case myself - but FG & Labour will not be in a position to give out many goodies considering the state that the economy is in. So in that way I think you may be greatly overestimating the benefits of being in government will have for FG & Labour and the disadvantages it will have for FF.

With respect, it was Government intervention and de-facto regulation of the property market which caused the bubble. Inflation was displaced thanks to Governmental Policy. Markets were inflated. To claim that the property bubble had anything to do with the free market is ludicrious.

Sierra Oscar

Het-Field wrote: »

With respect, it was Government intervention and de-facto regulation of the property market which caused the bubble. Inflation was displaced thanks to Governmental Policy. Markets were inflated. To claim that the property bubble had anything to do with the free market is ludicrious.

I would argue myself that the governments lack of regulation and oversight over the bankings sector was what actually led to the property bubble itself. Of course you are right in saying that the governments policies also led to the property bubble expanding and expanding - it didn't help that the likes of tax relief schemes were allowed go on and on and on. However if the ludicrous lending habits of the banks were curtailed then the money would not have been there to feed the property bubble in the first instance. I do not think you can deny that.

Het-Field

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I would argue myself that the governments lack of regulation and oversight over the bankings sector was what actually led to the property bubble itself.

It was the Governmental incentives (tax breaks for Developers etc) which provided the banks with the impotus to behave stupidly. While the banks were complicit, it was the Market Distorting policy of the state which encouraged the banks to behave in such a manner i.e. without Governmental encouragement in the property market, the demand would have been far less.

Kinski

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I never thought that was the case myself

If it wasn't an important part of its political strategy then why was the outgoing FF-led administration so keen on filling vacancies on state boards before leaving office?

FG & Labour will not be in a position to give out many goodies considering the state that the economy is in. So in that way I think you may be greatly overestimating the benefits of being in government will have for FG & Labour and the disadvantages it will have for FF.

It's not just about obtaining financially lucrative State positions. People have been known to pursue power and influence for other reasons, such as to ensure that the govt acts in a way which suits their interests, and sometimes as ends in themselves.

Sierra Oscar

Kinski wrote: »

If it wasn't an important part of its political strategy then why was the outgoing FF-led administration so keen on filling vacancies on state boards before leaving office?



It's not just about obtaining financially lucrative State positions. People have been known to pursue power and influence for other reasons, such as to ensure that the govt acts in a way which suits their interests, and sometimes as ends in themselves.

Indeed - I am not denying that it occurs, I am just stating my belief that it is not as widespread as it is made out to be. Nor does this despicable behaviour only apply to FF.

I know my fair share of FG supporters who were rubbing their hands in glee at the prospects of them receiving some patronage positions due to their long commitment to supporting the party prior to the last GE. I guess some of them had reason to be excited - they are not too bad off post election! I am talking about commitments made from the highest ranking positions in FG, some of which were followed through on.

Now in no way does that justify the actions of a minority of FF members who sought to give out lucrative positions in a patronage like manner - those sort of actions are a disgrace. All the same, please, spare us the drama of trying to make out that only FF members would undertake these sort of actions. Give it a few years and I guarantee you the same will be said of FG. The sense of entitlement stretches across the entire political divide in Ireland and it is the political system utilized which is most at fault.

Kinski

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

All the same, please, spare us the drama of trying to make out that only FF members would undertake these sort of actions. Give it a few years and I guarantee you the same will be said of FG. The sense of entitlement stretches across the entire political divide in Ireland and it is the political system utilized which is most at fault.

Drama? What the hell are you talking about? I already noted that FG/Lab would be doing the same thing - in fact, they are already accused of doing the same thing. It's a deep-rooted problem within the culture of Irish politics that elected representatives see fit to dispense such positions to supporters.

Now in no way does that justify the actions of a minority of FF members who sought to give out lucrative positions in a patronage like manner - those sort of actions are a disgrace.

Yes, of course, it was just a minority of bad apples within FF who ensured that the country was grossly mismanaged throughout the party's time in office, riding roughshod over the wishes of its majority of more conscientious members.

I suppose it was these same bad apples who put forward Bertie Aherne as the party's candidate to lead the country - the former Minister for Finance, and self-described accountant, who claims that he can't keep track of his own personal finances. And who says he appointed his benefactors to this and that position because they were his friends.

Sand

@Sierra Oscar

I have been a FF member for years and I have never been on a state board!

Bitter?

[/CouldntResist]

end a eknny

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The only people who continue to delude themselves that Fianna Fail did not make the recession in Ireland - are FF members.

This speaks volumes libraries.

without a doubt ireland should have remained a thriving ecconomy. while the rest of the world suffered global recession. what with us being in the centre of europe( its not like we are a isolated island on the outskirts of europe). combine that with are wealth of natural resources and are irresistable weather. if only we had a f.g lab goverment things could have been so different the changes they have made in 6 months is unbelievable can only imagine the improvements they will make over the next ten years

thebman

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Give it a few years and I guarantee you the same will be said of FG. The sense of entitlement stretches across the entire political divide in Ireland and it is the political system utilized which is most at fault.

The reason no party should be in power for more than 5 years with our current political system.

Also the reason FG got a lot of votes for promising change which if not delivered will lose them that vote. FF may not get it though unless they can actually show they have reformed.

Personally I'd rather FF split into the MM supporters and the others. I don't think any proper reform can come from the man who started the HSE.

Mr.Micro

Fianna Fail still in terminal decline

Is there anything we can do to hasten its demise?

Sierra Oscar

thebman wrote: »

The reason no party should be in power for more than 5 years with our current political system.

Wouldn't you agree that this means some major political reform is needed?

I don't mean to sound depressing, but we were hearing all about political reform from FG prior to the election and during the early days of at the governments formation. It does seem that it has taken quite a backseat at the moment though.

I'm telling you - I am convinced no real political reform occurs here because parties find it hard to make the changes once they are at the reigns of power.

thebman

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Wouldn't you agree that this means some major political reform is needed?

I agree completely. I think FG promised modest reforms and have yet to deliver on them and should be held accountable if they don't as they aren't even major reforms.

I don't mean to sound depressing, but we were hearing all about political reform from FG prior to the election and during the early days of at the governments formation. It does seem that it has taken quite a backseat at the moment though.

It can do can't it? We only need it by the next elections. Improving the economy and reducing the deficit are certainly more pressing issues at the moment but if political reform does not occur before the next election then I would not vote FG.

I'm telling you - I am convinced no real political reform occurs here because parties find it hard to make the changes once they are at the reigns of power.

I completely agree with this but it was promised and parties must be held accountable on unfulfilled promises by the people who cared about those issues when they voted for them.

jank

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Anyway personally I believe that FF should strive to continue the social advances which it has advocated since the inception of the party. Quick example - in the past FF have been responsible for widening access to education for the people of the republic, have been responsible for implementing social schemes to ensure that those who before could not afford to attend third level education could finally do so . . . these sort of social advances must continue. I guess from that you could say that in a sense I believe FF should be left leaning - but I think its important to recognise that its only possible to make such advances if you have a strong and stable economy. You cannot make social advances based on a shell of an economy. In that way FF needs to be open to pro-business policies in order to ensure we as a republic are in a strong position to continue these social advances. Although you cannot be so pro-business that you let regulation be weakened to such an extent that you see the likes of property bubbles emerging which end up wrecking havok on the republic when they burst. You need balance.

.

So basicly everything FF wasnt in the last 25 years?