History and the Demographics of Northern Ireland - A cordial discussion

Alopex

steddyeddy wrote: »

We have been hearing a lot of rubbish on this forum along those lines from other posters. People thinking that the irish/ira/catholics or whatever want to kill protestents. My uncle heard the same old crap during the civil rights movement even some gems like "those protestents marching with the civil rights group arent real protestents ect". We may not have heard all the posters speak such rubbish but we are well behind the psychology of it. Sure catholics were denied rights in the north based on that faulty thinking.

vellocet wrote:

You have been banging this drum for a while. They targetted Prods because they were Prods? Can you link or source these claims?

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

steddyeddy

Alopex wrote: »

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

Who are the protestent republicans sectarian against and give me indications of sectarianism in ireland. Myself I have always argued for a secular state.

HellsAngel

Alopex wrote: »

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

Your going way off topic but anyway. I right clicked on your stats and found the source to be http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/charts/declining_prot_1891_1991.gif

If you look on the home page " This is the personal web site for Wesley Johnston. I have more than one site hosted on this domain, so please select the one you require "

I'm quite aware of Wesley and his spin on the troubles etc. It's hardly what I'd call a reliable site

Alopex

steddyeddy wrote: »

Who are the protestent republicans sectarian against and give me indications of sectarianism in ireland. Myself I have always argued for a secular state.

I am not saying all republicans are sectarian. However the above graphs present quite a problem for people who say irish republicanism is a sectarianism free movement.

If it weren't for partition hundreds of thousands of Protestants would have moved to Britain and population would have declined like in the republic

Republicans who deny this are deluding(and embarrassing) themselves.

I am also not saying the same would happen today. In my first post about this I said this is why Protestants have historically feared a united Ireland.

Alopex

HellsAngel wrote: »

Your going way off topic but anyway. I right clicked on your stats and found the source to be http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/charts/declining_prot_1891_1991.gif

If you look on the home page " This is the personal web site for Wesley Johnston. I have more than one site hosted on this domain, so please select the one you require "

I'm quite aware of Wesley and his spin on the troubles etc. It's hardly what I'd call a reliable site

I did not quote any of his opinions for that reason. However those graphs are the real figures so you'll have to do better than that;)

HellsAngel

Alopex wrote: »

I did not quote any of his opinions for that reason. However those graphs are the real figures so you'll have to do better than that.

But what are the sources for those graphs

steddyeddy

HellsAngel wrote: »

But what are the sources for those graphs

and even so does that mean that the decline in protestent numbers due to the irish being sectarianist?

Alopex

HellsAngel wrote: »

But what are the sources for those graphs

county records. Its pretty well known anyway. Usually republicans don't deny the massive decline of the Protestant population in the republic

steddyeddie wrote:

and even so does that mean that the decline in protestent numbers due to the irish being sectarianist?

In some cases they were burned out of their houses. more commonly their businesses were boycotted. Similar stuff happened to Jewish businesses. Protestants would boycott Catholic and Jewish owned businesses too. Religion was a much bigger deal back then.

Do you really think its a coincidence the only counties where the protestant population hasn't declined are in the UK?

KeithAFC

Alopex wrote: »

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

The Protestant people moved up to Ulster as its spiritual home. The moment Northern Ireland came about, they decided enough was enough and moved.

HellsAngel

Alopex wrote: »

HellsAngel But what are the sources for those graphs

county records. Its pretty well known anyway. Usually republicans don't deny the massive decline of the Protestant population in the republic

Anyone could say " county records ". I could make up a graph and attribute it's data to " county records " !!!!!!

Now could you provide the reliable links to prove Wesley's graphs And if it's " well known anyway" you should have no problem backing up the data with reliable links !!!!!!!!

Alopex

HellsAngel wrote: »

Anyone could say " county records ". I could make up a graph and attribute it's data to " county records " !!!!!!

Now could you provide the reliable links to prove Wesley's graphs

I've talked to you before. You do not accept evidence unless you want it to be true. Even if knowledgable republicans are saying it.

Everyone knows the Protestant population declined massively since partition. If you deny that you are just trolling.

The Scientician

Alopex wrote: »

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

Did you analyse the birth rate of Catholics and Protestants in Ireland during that time?

Alopex

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Protestant people moved up to Ulster as its spiritual home. The moment Northern Ireland came about, they decided enough was enough and moved.

Ulster was never the spiritual home for many Protestants. Protestants in the likes of Dublin were descended from English settlers with no connection to Ulster.

I think many must have moved to Britain rather than Ulster because its rare you meet Protestants with grandparents originally from the south.

Alopex

The Scientician wrote: »

Did you analyse the birth rate of Catholics and Protestants in Ireland during that time?

Its not like catholics and protestants are different species. I also cannot see how Protestants would become infertile in 26 counties.

Its obvious there is some reason Protestants felt they needed to leave the free state/irish republic

KeithAFC

Alopex wrote: »

Ulster was never the spiritual home for many Protestants. Protestants in the likes of Dublin were descended from English settlers with no connection to Ulster.

I think many must have moved to Britain rather than Ulster because its rare you meet Protestants with grandparents originally from the south.

Look at the history of Antrim and Down and in that region in Ulster. Protestants from the 1600s roamed the place.

FTA69

I don't think anyone would deny a decline in the Protestant population in the south, what I would deny though, are the hysterical reasons being put forward by some posters on this thread. Irish Protestants were not "ethnically cleansed" in the south, that notion is pure and utter nonsense, utter historical vomit. The only "historians" I've ever heard seriously articulate this theory were that fool Eoghan Harris (who was subsequently called out by John A Murphy, the founder of revisionism, and shown up to be a bullsh*tter) and Peter Hart, the deceased Canadian historian who was also proven to be a liar.

The prime reason behind the decline of Irish Protestants in the south was Ne Temere, a Papal decree which stipulated the children of mixed marriages were to be brought up Catholic. This was a prime reason behind the decline in population, in my opinion southern Protestants being far more liberal and less zealous in their religion than their Catholic counterparts would have accepted this without much fuss. Emigration also would have played a major part with many southern Unionists moving to the North and to a greater degree, Britain itself.

For the record my family are southern Protestants from the border region, and I often remember asking about this period, we've no recollections of being "burned out" or any of that lark. Comparing this with the treatment of the Jews in Germany is lazy in the extreme. You'll find a better parallel of that behaviour in the Orange state to the north.

The Scientician

Alopex wrote: »

Its not like catholics and protestants are different species. I also cannot see how Protestants would become infertile in 26 counties.

A relative difference would account for some of the decline in the percentage population. They're not different species but different ethnic, religious, cultural groups DO have different birth rates. Also, you'd have to look at the economic background.

Actually here's a question for any history buffs reading. Were non-Catholics in the south allowed avail of contraceptives more easily than Catholics?

FTA69

People promoting the "ethnic cleansing" fallacy often point to Cork as an example, funnily enough this area today still has a large Protestant population, a significant amount of acreage in the hands of Protestant farmers and a number of thriving private schools that primarily cater for Protestants. There is no real narrative of persecution or "ethnic cleansing" there at all.

However, sectarianism did occur but certainly not on the scale some people here are suggesting. There were also cases when Protestant informers were shot and these have subsequently been portrayed as sectarian killings when in fact they weren't.

vellocet

Alopex wrote: »

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

Can you do a similar graph for the OVERALL population decline 1861-1991 please.

vellocet

Alopex wrote: »

Its not like catholics and protestants are different species. I also cannot see how Protestants would become infertile in 26 counties.

Its obvious there is some reason Protestants felt they needed to leave the free state/irish republic

I'm afraid it isn't.

A certain percentage of the Anglo Irish would have left with their government jobs when the British withdrew. Protestant families tended to have less children than Catholic families and there was of course the disgraceful NeTemere doctrine from the Catholic church.

The WHOLE Irish population fell in the period in question, so your chart is pointless.

There was no ethnic cleansing. There was no forced movement of people. To contrive this idea to point score against your modern political foes does a massive disservice to those who are victims of pogroms around the world.

Alopex

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't think anyone would deny a decline in the Protestant population in the south, what I would deny though, are the hysterical reasons being put forward by some posters on this thread. Irish Protestants were not "ethnically cleansed" in the south, that notion is pure and utter nonsense, utter historical vomit. The only "historians" I've ever heard seriously articulate this theory were that fool Eoghan Harris (who was subsequently called out by John A Murphy, the founder of revisionism, and shown up to be a bullsh*tter) and Peter Hart, the deceased Canadian historian who was also proven to be a liar.

The prime reason behind the decline of Irish Protestants in the south was Ne Temere, a Papal decree which stipulated the children of mixed marriages were to be brought up Catholic. This was a prime reason behind the decline in population, in my opinion southern Protestants being far more liberal and less zealous in their religion than their Catholic counterparts would have accepted this without much fuss. Emigration also would have played a major part with many southern Unionists moving to the North and to a greater degree, Britain itself.

that's a fair point about the ne temere decree. You also mention emigration to the northern ireland and Britain. This is what I mean. I'm interested in why they emigrated to those places. I think sectarianism was a factor. I'm not saying they were all burned out or anything. I reckon it was more subtle sectarianism like boycotting and general unwelcomeness. A lot of southern Protestants were made to feel like they weren't "proper" Irish

I honestly think if it weren't for partition the Protestant population would be far lower than it is today. Most Irish Protestants probably would have moved to Britain.

For the record my family are southern Protestants from the border region, and I often remember asking about this period, we've no recollections of being "burned out" or any of that lark. Comparing this with the treatment of the Jews in Germany is lazy in the extreme. You'll find a better parallel of that behaviour in the Orange state to the north.

For the record I did no such thing. I wasn't Godwinning I was talking about Jews in Dublin. People back then would often choose businesses and services based on the religion of the owners

I do appreciate your opinions though. Interesting reading

vellocet

Alopex wrote: »

county records. Its pretty well known anyway. Usually republicans don't deny the massive decline of the Protestant population in the republic



In some cases they were burned out of their houses. more commonly their businesses were boycotted. Similar stuff happened to Jewish businesses. Protestants would boycott Catholic and Jewish owned businesses too. Religion was a much bigger deal back then.

Do you really think its a coincidence the only counties where the protestant population hasn't declined are in the UK?

Again, if this happened, there would be copious documentation about it.

Other than in Limerick for a brief period, when were Jewish business targeted? Prods boycotting Jews? What on earth are you on about?

KeithAFC

A lot of Protestants at the time didn't want "Rome rule" which is obviously why a lot of them moved to Northern Ireland and other parts of Britain. The majority of Protestants on the island live in Northern Ireland. Not the Republic.

Anyway, what this has to do with Gerry and this recent story I don't know but interesting discussion anyway.

vellocet

Am I the only person who finds the Nationalist / Republican side being accused of sectarian pogroms a bit surreal?

One tribe on this island have a history of burning out their neighbours based on their religion, and it aint the indiginious Irish one.

FTA69

that's a fair point about the ne temere decree.

That's by far and away the defining factor really, with emigration also being an issue. As I said, when considering a marriage southern Protestants would have been far more liberal than the ultra-conservative Catholicism which was prevalent at the time.

This is what I mean. I'm interested in why they emigrated to those places.

Bear in mind in the early part of the 20th Century Britain was the destination of choice for Irish people in general. I know what you mean though. Look at this way, if you were an Irish Unionist who strongly believed in Ireland's place in the United Kingdom and felt you and your people were dependent on that relationship wouldn't you be a bit nervous? In a very sudden period you saw the country erupt in conflict and within seven years you see armed Republicans taking power on a local and national level and all of a sudden Irish nationalism is the order of the day; a lot of Protestants said f*ck this and joined the emigration tide to Britain. That however, doesn't equate with there being a program of sectarianism against them, rather that their sense of place was shattered by a revolution. For the same reason you'll see white South Africans emigrating en masse to Australia.

Those Protestants that stayed were generally unmolested, and today the Protestant population is quite a prosperous and prominent one.

Hannibal

KeithAFC wrote: »

A lot of Protestants at the time didn't want "Rome rule" which is obviously why a lot of them moved to Northern Ireland and other parts of Britain. The majority of Protestants on the island live in Northern Ireland. Not the Republic.

Anyway, what this has to do with Gerry and this recent story I don't know but interesting discussion anyway.

Ireland never had "Rome Rule" in any way, shape or form Keith. It's a myth created by Protestants own xenophobic feelings about the Irish republic.

I accept certain institutions like hospitals and schools were over run with clergy but the government was not led by Rome.

Another point is that the Church of Ireland isn't a protestant church. It's doctrine is mostly Catholic it just rejects the influence of the Vatican. I wonder has falling attendences got anything to do with the decline of Protestants or the rise of people being agnostic and athiest.

Let's be honest in this internet generation at the touch of a button everyone can find out that most relgions are built on tales and make believe anyway.

FTA69

Dotsey wrote: »

Ireland never had "Rome Rule" in any way, shape or form Keith. It's a myth created by Protestants own xenophobic feelings about the Irish republic.

Of course we had Rome Rule. the 26 Counties' health and education policies were determined by the Catholic Church with its institutions being under their complete control. For the love of God, you couldn't even get contraception or get a divorce in this state until the 1990s. Not to mention the likes of the Magdalene Laundries etc which wouldn't have been tolerated in any other country in Europe.

I wouldn't be under any illusions about the gombeen banana state that emerged after the Treaty, it was exactly as Connolly said it would be, "a carnival of reaction".

FTA69

Dr Galen wrote: »

How a thread discussing the IRA and their "involvement in South Africa has descended into a discussion about the historical demographics of Northern Ireland I'm not quite sure.......

Anyway, can we get back onto the topic at hand, and leave the OT stuff for another thread or another day or both.

When I get my broadband back working properly I'll be going through this thread and deleting anything I deem to be OT and not relating to the OP so don't waste any more of your time on it

Cheers

DrG

Shame, tis a good cordial discussion like. Would it be worth splitting the thread?

matthew8

vellocet wrote: »

Can you do a similar graph for the OVERALL population decline 1861-1991 please.

It is done by percentage, not actual numbers.

Dr Galen

As discussed over in the other thread, this is the split off thread.

Take notice of the thread title please people, with cordial being the big word there.

Any messin or trench digging isn't going to be viewed in a good light, as it's taken me a good bit of time to sort this out, (due to crap UPC broadband being crap), and I'd hate for that effort to be in vain

So play nice

vellocet

matthew8 wrote: »

It is done by percentage, not actual numbers.

I mean compare and contrast with Catholic population decline

blahfckingblah

Alopex wrote: »

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

Theres nothing in them graphs to suggest sectarianism

The Scientician

The migration to the north idea doesn't hold as much water when you realise that the Protestant percentage of the population in Northern Ireland has also dropped over the years.

Anyway, from googling around, it seems that migration AND a low birth rate are to blame. According to this book, the Protestant % of population in the Republic actually increased to 5% by 2006 largely due to boom-era inward migration.

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Protestant people moved up to Ulster as its spiritual home. The moment Northern Ireland came about, they decided enough was enough and moved.

Thats not the full story either. I know a lot of Protestants that married Catholics and ended up raising the children Catholic. So Protestant numbers dropped that way also.

woodoo

Dotsey wrote: »

Ireland never had "Rome Rule" in any way, shape or form Keith.

I remember in secondary school (90's) we were forced to go to mass while in uniform and during school hours. There was no getting out of it.

Nodin

Alopex wrote: »

I am not saying all republicans are sectarian. However the above graphs present quite a problem for people who say irish republicanism is a sectarianism free movement.

..........

...which presumes that the departure from the south was in some way connected to republicanism and not the mass emmigration the rest of the demographic were engaged in.

steddyeddy

Alopex wrote: »

county records. Its pretty well known anyway. Usually republicans don't deny the massive decline of the Protestant population in the republic



In some cases they were burned out of their houses. more commonly their businesses were boycotted. Similar stuff happened to Jewish businesses. Protestants would boycott Catholic and Jewish owned businesses too. Religion was a much bigger deal back then.

Do you really think its a coincidence the only counties where the protestant population hasn't declined are in the UK?

Simply put I think your spewing a load of rubbish about the irish being anti jewish and anti protestent. Even the ira had jewish and protestent members.

end a eknny

Alopex wrote: »

Devalera gave the RC church a "special place" in the constitution. The number of Protestants in the south dropped hugely since partition.

Same in border areas in the north. South Armagh used to be 20% protestant but is now less than 1%

You can say republicans are non-sectarian all you like, these figures tell the real story.

maybe they just seen the light. the erro of there ways you might say

steddyeddy

Alopex wrote: »

I am not saying all republicans are sectarian. However the above graphs present quite a problem for people who say irish republicanism is a sectarianism free movement.

If it weren't for partition hundreds of thousands of Protestants would have moved to Britain and population would have declined like in the republic

Republicans who deny this are deluding(and embarrassing) themselves.

I am also not saying the same would happen today. In my first post about this I said this is why Protestants have historically feared a united Ireland.

All that potentially shows is that the protestents who left were unionist and wanted to live in the uk not that they were vicitms of sectarianisim. How can you tell the difference?

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

All that potentially shows is that the protestents who left were unionist and wanted to live in the uk not that they were vicitms of sectarianisim. How can you tell the difference?

That is a lot of Protestants though. Perhaps you are right but it is a lot to be fair.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

That is a lot of Protestants though. Perhaps you are right but it is a lot to be fair.

It is a lot and if any sectarianism went on towards protestents well I would personally say that those who do that are bigots and should be ashamed.

vellocet

KeithAFC wrote: »

That is a lot of Protestants though. Perhaps you are right but it is a lot to be fair.

If a united Ireland happened tomorrow, would you stay?

You see where this is going etc?

Alopex

steddyeddy wrote: »

Simply put I think your spewing a load of rubbish about the irish being anti jewish and anti protestent. Even the ira had jewish and protestent members.

well that wasn't what I was doing. I was saying sectarianism was a bigger deal back then. Thats why I said Protestants boycotted Jewish and Catholic owned companies too.

I know of one catering company in dublin who opened in the 60s under the banner "we'll take anyone's money" as at the time protestant companies used protestant companies/jewish used jewish/catholic used catholic etc. up until recently sectarianism from all sides was a big deal. not an irish thing it was everyone. scratch the surface its sometime still the case in northern ireland. If you need a taxi from great victoria st to west belfast only certain taxi companies will take you.

vellocet

Alopex wrote: »

well that wasn't what I was doing. I was saying sectarianism was a bigger deal back then. Thats why I said Protestants boycotted Jewish and Catholic owned companies too.

I know of one catering company in dublin who opened in the 60s under the banner "we'll take anyone's money" as at the time protestant companies used protestant companies/jewish used jewish/catholic used catholic etc. up until recently sectarianism from all sides was a big deal. not an irish thing it was everyone. scratch the surface its sometime still the case in northern ireland. If you need a taxi from great victoria st to west belfast only certain taxi companies will take you.

We know Belfast has sectarian problems. Protestant taxi drivers refusing a fare from a catholic isn't front page news.

But you have claimed a troika of Catholic, Jewish and Protestant boycott and hate in the south. You have to back it up...

Alopex

vellocet wrote: »

We know Belfast has sectarian problems. Protestant taxi drivers refusing a fare from a catholic isn't front page news.

But you have claimed a troika of Catholic, Jewish and Protestant boycott and hate in the south. You have to back it up...

just to be clear i am not saying it would be the case today.

it was the case in the not too distant past though. i am also saying it was the case across many religious groups. not just catholics, protestants or jews, but everyone.

Sectarianism was a much bigger deal back then than today.

vellocet

Alopex wrote: »

just to be clear i am not saying it would be the case today.

it was the case in the not too distant past though. i am also saying it was the case across many religious groups. not just catholics, protestants or jews, but everyone.

Sectarianism was a much bigger deal back then than today.

I know what you are saying. But I believe it to be nonsense. You haven't backed up a controversial statement in any meaningful way

blahfckingblah

Alopex wrote: »

just to be clear i am not saying it would be the case today.

it was the case in the not too distant past though. i am also saying it was the case across many religious groups. not just catholics, protestants or jews, but everyone.

Sectarianism was a much bigger deal back then than today.

there was never sectarianism to the extent you accused,and hopefully never will be

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course we had Rome Rule. the 26 Counties' health and education policies were determined by the Catholic Church with its institutions being under their complete control. For the love of God, you couldn't even get contraception or get a divorce in this state until the 1990s. Not to mention the likes of the Magdalene Laundries etc which wouldn't have been tolerated in any other country in Europe.

I wouldn't be under any illusions about the gombeen banana state that emerged after the Treaty, it was exactly as Connolly said it would be, "a carnival of reaction".

I think you have hit the nail on the head in several of your posts.

Ne Temere would have played a big part in the reduction in numbers, as would the mess the country was in post independence.

With the odd (and I stress infrequent) bit of anti protestant scandal or call it what you like, such as the well documented case of the Librarian, or Dev's statement about doctors, a lot of protestants probably just decided to clear off the England or elsewhere.

Ireland was/is a Catholic country, maybe not in legislation, but the church controlled the schools and the hospitals, so if you were an Anglican that wanted to be a doctor or a teacher, it was pretty clear there was no future for you in Ireland.

I'm not saying people left for sectarian reasons, more practical and economic ones.

Rebelheart

FTA69 wrote: »

The prime reason behind the decline of Irish Protestants in the south was Ne Temere, a Papal decree which stipulated the children of mixed marriages were to be brought up Catholic. This was a prime reason behind the decline in population, in my opinion southern Protestants being far more liberal and less zealous in their religion than their Catholic counterparts would have accepted this without much fuss. Emigration also would have played a major part with many southern Unionists moving to the North and to a greater degree, Britain itself.

For the record my family are southern Protestants from the border region, and I often remember asking about this period, we've no recollections of being "burned out" or any of that lark. Comparing this with the treatment of the Jews in Germany is lazy in the extreme. You'll find a better parallel of that behaviour in the Orange state to the north.

I've thanked this, but Ne Temera doesn't account for the decline as much as WWI does and, even moreso, the withdrawal of over 100,000 British troops and their families from Ireland by 6 December 1922. Why do none of the "protestant decline" people acknowledge this enormous number of people who left when the colonial power left? I've linked to studies in the past which specifically discuss the impact of the British military withdrawal from most of Ireland on the Protestant population.

For some reason, the "ethnic cleansing" people here entirely avoid this most basic issue. Why? Because it has very obvious implications for their 1641esque "popish natives ethnically cleanse us civilised British colonialists in Ireland". When asked for evidence, they invariably link to the same British loyalist website by Wesley Johnston or to Robin Bury's positively anti-Irish "Reform Movement" website, rather than to academic studies.

Rebelheart

woodoo wrote: »

I remember in secondary school (90's) we were forced to go to mass while in uniform and during school hours. There was no getting out of it.

That was, I can assure without fear of contradiction, the policy of the school to which your parents chose to send you. They sent you to that school cognizant of school policy. They could have chosen other schools which do not have such a policy. They didn't. To say that school's policy is the Irish state's policy is simply nonsense - and people in "Protestant" schools will be among the first to attest to that.

The Irish state should own, and control, all schools in this state, in my view - and all schools should be non-religious. There is, however, a huge number of people, both Protestant and Catholic, in Ireland who will resist that. Until they are conquered, the current situation will continue. Please stop trying to misrepresent it.

KeithAFC

woodoo wrote: »

I remember in secondary school (90's) we were forced to go to mass while in uniform and during school hours. There was no getting out of it.

The priests ruled the roost. Got all the best food when visiting homes, and covered up sex abuse of kids.