Ticket touting , online or otherwise , what is the legal situation ??

anbrutog

Hi legal folks...

Would like your take on ticket touting. Essentially , what is the exact law on ticket touting?? Is it just the case that the guards merely move touts on but really theres nothing they can do unless they catch them in the act and can prove that the ticket is being sold at above cost ??

I'm thinking there must be no exact law if a site like this can operate with supposed impunity ??

http://www.needaticket.ie/sellyours.php


AB

Finnbar01

anbrutog wrote: »

Hi legal folks...

Would like your take on ticket touting. Essentially , what is the exact law on ticket touting?? Is it just the case that the guards merely move touts on but really theres nothing they can do unless they catch them in the act and can prove that the ticket is being sold at above cost ??

I'm thinking there must be no exact law if a site like this can operate with supposed impunity ??

http://www.needaticket.ie/sellyours.php


AB

Ticket touts provide a uselful service. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist.

Jev/N

Beside being against the T&C's (AFAIK), couldn't they be done for casual trading without a licence?

A tout in the colloquial sense of the word does not provide a useful service because they sell above cost

Finnbar01

Jev/N wrote: »

Beside being against the T&C's (AFAIK), couldn't they be done for casual trading without a licence?

A tout in the colloquial sense of the word does not provide a useful service because they sell above cost

They sell at a price people are willing to pay.

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Ticket touts provide a uselful service. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist.

So do hitmen.

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

So do hitmen.

In that case so does everybody else who provides a job or service.

Jev/N

Finnbar01 wrote: »

They sell at a price people are willing to pay.

No, they're taking advantage of a finite supply and exploiting it.

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

In that case so does everybody else who provides a job or service.

Just because there is demand doesn not make it right or legal.

TouchingVirus

Finnbar01 wrote: »

In that case so does everybody else who provides a job or service.

What tickets have you got for sale Finnbar? :pac:

stimpson

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Just because there is demand doesn not make it right or legal.

Yet if there is no law against it it...

I ended up with too many tickets for U2 in Slane in 2001 so I stuck them up on ebay. I got 800 quid for the pair. Does that make me a tout?

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Just because there is demand doesn not make it right or legal.

Is ticket touting illegal? I not so sure if it is. Anyways if it is not, touters are providing a service. They are selling tickets at a price someone is willing to pay.

If you put something on ebay that you genuinely thought was only worth at max €100 euros and the final bid was €500, would you withdraw it from sale or except the bid and be glad of the extra profit you've made?

I know what I would do.

RangeR

stimpson wrote: »

Yet if there is no law against it it...

I ended up with too many tickets for U2 in Slane in 2001 so I stuck them up on ebay. I got 800 quid for the pair. Does that make me a tout?

In my eyes, yes.

stimpson

RangeR wrote: »

In my eyes, yes.

So what should I have done with them?

RangeR

stimpson wrote: »

So what should I have done with them?

Sold them close to face value. Maybe +5% to allow for service charges from Ticketmaster etc

However, you put them on ebay for auction. Selling to the highest bidder. Taking full advantage of a scarce resource.

Finnbar01

TouchingVirus wrote: »

What tickets have you got for sale Finnbar? :pac:

No, but this guy is looking for some EP tickets. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056375163

RangeR wrote: »

Sold them close to face value. Maybe +5% to allow for service charges from Ticketmaster etc

However, you put them on ebay for auction. Selling to the highest bidder. Taking full advantage of a scarce resource.

Why should he? They're his property and he should try and get the best price for them.

If we go with your logic, than ebay itself should be closed down.

stimpson

RangeR wrote: »

Sold them close to face value. Maybe +5% to allow for service charges from Ticketmaster etc

To who? First come first served? Is that what you would have done?

However, you put them on ebay for auction. Selling to the highest bidder. Taking full advantage of a scarce resource.

Yep. It's called capitalism. Strictly speaking, it's called a free market. If I bought an ounce of gold at $1000 yet the spot price of gold is now $1800, have I the right to sell it at market rate?

Why should tickets be any different?

eyescreamcone

Jev/N wrote: »

No, they're taking advantage of a finite supply and exploiting it.

No different to airlines and hotels who up their prices closer to the date.
If they are allowed to do it then touts should be allowed.

RangeR

stimpson wrote: »

To who? First come first served? Is that what you would have done?

Yep. It's called capitalism. Strictly speaking, it's called a free market. If I bought an ounce of gold at $1000 yet the spot price of gold is now $1800, have I the right to sell it at market rate?

Why should tickets be any different?

The original question was

stimpson wrote: »

I got 800 quid for the pair. Does that make me a tout?

To which I answered "Yes".

You are what you are. Reasonings for same are irrelevant.

stimpson

RangeR wrote: »

You are what you are. Reasonings for same are irrelevant.

That is just your opinion. I asked you to back it up.

What would you do in the same situation? If you sold them at face value then you would be a fool.

What if it wasn't a ticket, but an ounce of gold. Is it any different?

RangeR

stimpson wrote: »

That is just your opinion. I asked you to back it up.

What would you do in the same situation? If you sold them at face value then you would be a fool.

What if it wasn't a ticket, but an ounce of gold. Is it any different?

Last post on this, we are derailing this thread. An opinion was asked for and I gave it. I'm not going to back it up with anything.

MagicSean

I would consider a tout a person who buys for the purpose of resale only.

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I would consider a tout a person who buys for the purpose of resale only.

So all those people who bought property with the intention of selling at a later date and making a profit are touts?

stimpson

RangeR wrote: »

Last post on this, we are derailing this thread. An opinion was asked for and I gave it. I'm not going to back it up with anything.

You're not even going to try? I guess you can't defend it.

What I did was neither illegal nor immoral. No more so than selling a collectable record or a piece of art for profit.

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

So all those people who bought property with the intention of selling at a later date and making a profit are touts?

I understood we were talkin about tickets here. The clue was the title of the thread "Ticket touting".

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I understood we were talkin about tickets here. The clue was the title of the thread "Ticket touting".

Yes we are talking about ticket touting which is just another way of making a profit ( or sometimes a loss).

If you are going to crib about touts, than anyone else providing a product or service, who wants to make a profit, will also have to come under your criticism.

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Yes we are talking about ticket touting which is just another way of making a profit ( or sometimes a loss).

If you are going to crib about touts, than anyone else providing a product or service, who wants to make a profit, will also have to come under your criticism.

Why? Ticket touts don't provide a service at all. The service is already there. They interfere with it.

stimpson

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I understood we were talkin about tickets here.

What is so special about tickets that they need to be protected from the laws of supply and demand?

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Why? Ticket touts don't provide a service at all. The service is already there. They interfere with it.

What if you want tickets but you got in too late to buy, or you couldn't get the time off or you weren't willing to queue for hours upon hours to buy the tickets?

Surely you can see how touts can have a function?

MagicSean

Finnbar01 wrote: »

What if you want tickets but you got in too late to buy, or you couldn't get the time off or you weren't willing to queue for hours upon hours to buy the tickets?

Surely you can see how touts can have a function?

Most tickets can be bought online. If the tout has the ticket he is most likely the reason you couldn't buy it because he has interfered with the service provided by the supplier.

stimpson

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Most tickets can be bought online. If the tout has the ticket he is most likely the reason you couldn't buy it because he has interfered with the service provided by the supplier.

Assuming they aren't stolen or forged, he has bought them through the normal channels, or second-hand from someone who bought them and cant attend. How is that interfering with the service?

MagicSean

stimpson wrote: »

Assuming they aren't stolen or forged, he has bought them through the normal channels, or second-hand from someone who bought them and cant attend. How is that interfering with the service?

He has interfered with the supply. He cannot buy them through legitimate channels for resale as afaik the terms and conditions on most tickets do not allow for this.

Finnbar01

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

He has interfered with the supply. He cannot buy them through legitimate channels for resale as afaik the terms and conditions on most tickets do not allow for this.

But he has brought them thru' the legitimate channels. Let the agent who sold them enforce the terms and conditions then.

stimpson

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

He has interfered with the supply. He cannot buy them through legitimate channels for resale as afaik the terms and conditions on most tickets do not allow for this.

That's debatable. Terms and Conditions aren't necessarily legally binding. It's like if I put up a sign saying tresspassers will be shot - it doesn't give me the right to shoot someone.

MagicSean

Put if he bought and sold them in contravention of the terms and conditions they are not valid and hence he has not acted legitimately and is not providing a useful service. He is merely making money by interfering with the existing service. If it wasn't for touts them touts would not be needed.

stimpson

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Put if he bought and sold them in contravention of the terms and conditions they are not valid and hence he has not acted legitimately and is not providing a useful service. He is merely making money by interfering with the existing service. If it wasn't for touts them touts would not be needed.

What about someone who has legitimately bought a ticket that they can't use. Surely you should be able to sell it on ebay to the highest bidder.

BrianD

stimpson wrote: »

What about someone who has legitimately bought a ticket that they can't use. Surely you should be able to sell it on ebay to the highest bidder.

There's a whole new arguement there. Starting with the promoter who assumes the risk of putting on a show and selling tickets at a fixed price irrespective of demand. If you want to go the highest bidder route then the promoter should do the same which would be disasterous.

TM terms and conditions of sale: If this ticket is re-sold or transferred for profit or commercial gain by anyone other than the Promoter, Venue Management, Ticketmaster or one of their authorised sub-agents, it will become voidable and the holder may be refused entry to or ejected from the venue. Ticketmaster reserves the right to cancel any tickets advertised or published in any manner with the intent to resell for profit or commercial gain.

darklighter

While I wouldnt be fond of touting, it is currently not illegal. There was talk of it being legislated but at this moment in time, I think our legislators have bigger fish to fry.

Morally its a grey area as well. Personally, i try to avoid giving them business but if it came down to it, i would buy from a tout to go to an event if i wanted it enough.

Breaking T&C's is a different story. Dont think that not complying with T&C's is illegal (I stand to be corrected though) and there aint much chance of ticketmaster catching anyone out. I think they should roll out the same system they use at glastonbury to as much ticketing as possible to reduce touting as much as possible.

I never thought about the casual trading angle! Obviously doesnt apply to online, but what are the laws regarding this? Is it something like trading for commercial purposes, you need a licence??

stimpson

BrianD wrote: »

There's a whole new arguement there. Starting with the promoter who assumes the risk of putting on a show and selling tickets at a fixed price irrespective of demand. If you want to go the highest bidder route then the promoter should do the same which would be disasterous.

TM terms and conditions of sale: If this ticket is re-sold or transferred for profit or commercial gain by anyone other than the Promoter, Venue Management, Ticketmaster or one of their authorised sub-agents, it will become voidable and the holder may be refused entry to or ejected from the venue. Ticketmaster reserves the right to cancel any tickets advertised or published in any manner with the intent to resell for profit or commercial gain.

Promoters are free to price their concerts how they like and are subject to the laws of Supply and Demand. The right to resell a ticket is currently a reality and I have yet to see a starving promoter.

You see similar conditions imposed in the copyright notices on CDs and DVDs. Yet nobody thinks it's a problem to buy or sell in a secondhand record shop - even for profit.

They can specify any T&C they like, however it doesn't mean theyre enforceable.

XxMCRxBabyxX

stimpson wrote: »

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Most tickets can be bought online. If the tout has the ticket he is most likely the reason you couldn't buy it because he has interfered with the service provided by the supplier.

Assuming they aren't stolen or forged, he has bought them through the normal channels, or second-hand from someone who bought them and cant attend. How is that interfering with the service?

By buying the ticket he has stopped a legitimate customer buying the same ticket. That is definitely interfering

eyescreamcone

What about companies who flog tickets + "fancy dinner" at exorbitant prices?

Everyone knows that you are paying way over the odds for these "executive" experiences!!!

Is this not some type of exploitation?
No - it's a method for making maximum profit.

Everybody is trying to make a profit so live and let live.

You could say that touts provide a service to punters who make a last minute decision to go to an event

paddy7654321

watch out for these guys....they let loads of people down...lots of unhappy customers....do a few internet searches and you will see for yourself ... help spread the word https://www.facebook.com/Boycottneedaticket.ie

BrianD

eyescreamcone wrote: »

What about companies who flog tickets + "fancy dinner" at exorbitant prices?

Everyone knows that you are paying way over the odds for these "executive" experiences!!!

Is this not some type of exploitation?
No - it's a method for making maximum profit.

Everybody is trying to make a profit so live and let live.

You could say that touts provide a service to punters who make a last minute decision to go to an event

Well I have often wondered if the reluctance to deal with touting was due to the existence of "corporate entertainment" and the kind of folks who enjoy it.. This activity involves packaging up the ticket with the fancy dinner or just sourcing a decent ticket and paying a service fee for the priveledge. A grey area that would be threatened by anti-touting laws.