Make Donegal's tactics impossible to follow?

Mountainlad

The suggestion that maybe we should have 13 aside games to make more space on a pitch for Football seem to appeal to me the more I say negativity like we've seen in recent times. This was being suggested the last couple of years, but given Donegal have now brought things to a new level, I think it or something similar has to be seriously considered.

keane2097

This sort of thing would have some validity if Donegal had won the AI.

As it stands they were beaten by a team that everybody seems to agree played more "football" than them in the SF.

If the final goes as the bookies expect, Dublin - who are also a defensive team - will be beaten by Kerry, who I think everyone agrees are the best example of what people mean when they say a "footballing team".

This really is much ado about nothing.

Jimoslimos

I can't really see how it can be stopped, unless you start implementing rules on how far half/full forwards can track back, which IMO would be messy to try enforce. Or maybe ban the handpass in your own half.

Top quality teams need to be able to beat all styles of play before they're regarded as such. Dublin's superior fitness won the game for them on Sunday, before that shooting 22 points against Tyrone was the difference. Not sure what'll be needed to beat Kerry but I'm sure Gilroy has it figured out

Cill Dara Abu

Mountainlad wrote: »

The suggestion that maybe we should have 13 aside games to make more space on a pitch for Football seem to appeal to me the more I say negativity like we've seen in recent times. This was being suggested the last couple of years, but given Donegal have now brought things to a new level, I think it or something similar has to be seriously considered.

Agree, I would love too see it 13 a side, games would be far more entertaining to watch.

Dangerous Man

Mountainlad wrote: »

The suggestion that maybe we should have 13 aside games to make more space on a pitch for Football seem to appeal to me the more I say negativity like we've seen in recent times. This was being suggested the last couple of years, but given Donegal have now brought things to a new level, I think it or something similar has to be seriously considered.

It's not necessary. A Gaelic football field is enormous - plenty of space for 30 players. Donegal's tactics only worked for as long as Dublin didn't exploit them. If five players are going to engulf one, then it makes sense not to leave that one player isolated. If you're going to kick it long at least make sure that the receiving player has support ready to pass the ball to when the droves descend. Also, as already pointed out, Dublin won the game. Donegal's tactics will only work for so long. Check out Darragh O'Se's article in the IT today (although he does seem to enjoy having a dig at the Dubs a little bit too much for my liking.)


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0831/1224303237811.html

THE MIDDLE THIRD: The composure of players like Bernard Brogan and the team’s superior fitness helped Dublin edge over the line in a terrible game that wasn’t helped by a poor refereeing performance
I WENT to two games in Dublin over the weekend. In both of them, 30 fellas leathered lumps out of each other, all of them chasing after the ball at the same time and with very little structure that I could work out sitting in the stands.
The main difference was Ronan O’Gara and Jonny Wilkinson could at least kick straight in the rugby match at the Aviva on Saturday. I couldn’t say the same for very many of the players I watched in Croke Park the next day.
I’ve never seen a game like Dublin v Donegal before, one where for most of the game a backward pass was more effective than a forward pass. It was almost surreal to watch, fascinating in one way because of how the two teams set up, but terrible stuff at the same time.
Donegal have received a huge amount of criticism over how many men they got behind the ball but Dublin weren’t blameless either. Colm McFadden must have been thinking he was the best footballer in the country because there were times Dublin had three players marking him.
To see it from their point of view for a minute, it’s easy enough to get a handle on where both teams were coming from. When you’re mixing paint, you have to use the right colours. Dublin were always going to have to see for themselves how Donegal would come at that before committing to a plan themselves so I can see why they would have kept a few men back in the first half. But it made for horrific viewing.
I would still defend the right of both managers to set their teams up in whatever way they think will get results but even so, there’s a wider picture to think about.
Say you’re a young coach taking over a club team that has done nothing for a few years and is in the right frame of mind for a big idea or a big change. Well, this is a very effective short cut to success.
I don’t mean that it’s lazy because it surely isn’t – players need huge fitness and commitment to pull it off.
And actually, Dublin were fitter than Donegal on Sunday, which was a big reason they came through in the closing stages.
But in a results-based business, it will guarantee you keep every game close and, because other teams aren’t used to it on such a big scale, you’ll probably win more than you lose. Donegal have made very little impression on the championship in recent years but they came within a kick of a ball of an All-Ireland final this time around. That’s a remarkable rise in a short space of time and I can see plenty of coaches out there looking at them and deciding there’s a ready-made template there to work off.
This will tell you what an odd game it was – Kerry shouldn’t waste a minute thinking about it between now and the final. I think it’s a game to be completely disregarded just because it was so out of the ordinary. It was just a one-off and it will mean nothing come the final.
Dublin set themselves up for Donegal on Sunday, not for Kerry. Had they taken Donegal for granted, they would have been beaten but they didn’t and they weren’t.
When it comes to the final, their form against Tyrone will be a better pointer.
Even allowing for them paying Donegal all due respect, Dublin were overly conservative in the first half. They stood and let Donegal take their best shot before coming back at them, knowing they were fit enough to come through at the end.
I actually thought watching the game that if Dublin were a bit more adventurous, they could have won by a lot more. But instead, they decided to play the game on Donegal’s terms and trusted that they’d come out the other end of it. That decision had as much of an effect on the spectacle as Donegal’s set-up had.
At one point, Bernard Brogan took possession under the Hogan Stand and although five Donegal men converged upon him, there was no Dublin player inside the 65-metre line. If you stopped the DVD there in front of a room of young lads and asked them what options Brogan had in that split second, they’d know instinctively he was done for.
That ball was either going out over the sideline or Brogan was going to run into traffic or kick a Hail Mary shot. And all because Dublin weren’t getting players forward to help him out.
The main reason Dublin won in the end was players like Brogan kept their heads. He made the play of the game with his kick-pass across goal for Bryan Cullen’s point. He was under pressure, getting swarmed like he had been all day, fighting traffic as he was trying to look around him and yet he still managed to pick out a left-footed pass to Cullen for the crucial point that put Dublin ahead.
Doing that after all that had gone before was a sign of class and he went way up in my estimation on Sunday.
I’ve always thought he was a fine footballer but I still wouldn’t have classed him in the absolute top rank of players in the country. But the way he came through what must have been one of the least enjoyable games of his life was very impressive.
He knew he was going to have three or four fellas around him every time he touched the ball and that he was going to take plenty of hits and flakes all the way through. But he showed a level of maturity in his game on Sunday that I didn’t think was there beforehand.
I would have hated to play in that game. From a midfielder’s point of view, it wasn’t a game to relish at all, even though most of the play was between the two 45s.
There were hardly any kick-outs contested because both goalkeepers were usually happy to just flick out a short ball to one of the four defenders free in their full-back line.
All the usual rules of thumb went out the window. There was no accountability. Who was marking Cullen? Who was marking any of them? I feel I have a decent grasp of how the game is played and yet sitting in the stand, I couldn’t work out who was taking responsibility for stopping specific players in the opposition.
It was collective rather than man-to-man, obviously, but even so, surely at some point you have to be accountable to your peers if your man gets in a for a score? I’ve never seen a game like it before.
It wasn’t helped by the referee either. This is the point I’ve been making here all summer – a referee can make or break a game by the attitude he takes to it. Sometimes, all a referee needs to do is let a game flow and that will make it. But if ever a game needed breaking, it was this one.
Maurice Deegan just let far too many things slide, from stray slaps to kicking the ball away to just pure fouling that was let go as tackling.
Small things like that add up to a frustrating game. But even when it came to the big decisions, he sent off Diarmuid Connolly for nothing more than what a few Donegal players were doing the whole time. I just felt he kept the game tighter than it should have been and the net result was that Donegal stayed closer than a team scoring six points in an All-Ireland semi-final had any right to be.
Connolly was unlucky to go and if I was him I’d be raging at missing out on the final on the back of it. But Dublin shouldn’t waste too much time or energy trying to get him cleared for the final. That kind of thing can take your attention away from what you’re preparing for.
I remember back a few years ago when Paul Galvin got suspended after, well, let’s just say it was the time the referee dropped his notebook in Killarney. There was an attempt to try and get his suspension shortened and the whole thing had a bearing on our preparation for matches that summer. It turned into a big thing in the county. People would be stopping you to ask if Paul was going to be cleared and the whole thing became a distraction.
Dublin can’t afford that going into the final, even though it’s harsh on Connolly. Given the context of that game on Sunday, where there were Donegal men who played the game far rougher and did plenty more belting than him, it’s hard to argue he deserved to be the one who walked. There was much of a muchness between what he did and what some of the rest of them did in the game. What’s good for the goose should have been good for the gander.
But Dublin will have to move on and get ready for the final we were all afraid to mention before the Donegal game.
Dublin GAA is on a high now with teams in the minor finals in both hurling and football and now a senior final against Kerry to look forward to. Semi-finals are always games to be forgotten, never more so than this one.
As I was walking into Croke Park on Sunday, I saw Kevin Moran go through the gate ahead of me. He was always a hero of mine, although probably more as a Man United and Ireland player than as a Dub. He and Kevin Heffernan had a big hug for each other, like they maybe hadn’t seen each other in a while.
There was a real warmth between the two of them, the kind of thing that lasts for years after a great team breaks up. It was a lovely moment, probably the highlight of the day for me. Mind you, that wouldn’t be hard, given the game that followed.

davegrohl48

Problem is that the game ends up with twelve marking ten in a small area of what is a huge playing area Iv watched 13 aside many times n it is consistently better All skill character n basics of the game remain A team like Longford few years ago would've benefitted from it Impact of Bardens would be greater in 13 aside Two late goals could allow some interesting shocks Playing numbers in lot o teams at club level are thin enough helps out there Injury rate should drop as the amount of collisions would be lower with less bodies under dropping ball (Im stretching there but maybe grain truth)

Mountainlad

Dangerous Man wrote: »

It's not necessary. A Gaelic football field is enormous - plenty of space for 30 players. Donegal's tactics only worked for as long as Dublin didn't exploit them. If five players are going to engulf one, then it makes sense not to leave that one player isolated. If you're going to kick it long at least make sure that the receiving player has support ready to pass the ball to when the droves descend. Also, as already pointed out, Dublin won the game. Donegal's tactics will only work for so long. Check out Darragh O'Se's article in the IT today (although he does seem to enjoy having a dig at the Dubs a little bit too much for my liking.)


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0831/1224303237811.html

THE MIDDLE THIRD: The composure of players like Bernard Brogan and the team’s superior fitness helped Dublin edge over the line in a terrible game that wasn’t helped by a poor refereeing performance
I WENT to two games in Dublin over the weekend. In both of them, 30 fellas leathered lumps out of each other, all of them chasing after the ball at the same time and with very little structure that I could work out sitting in the stands.
The main difference was Ronan O’Gara and Jonny Wilkinson could at least kick straight in the rugby match at the Aviva on Saturday. I couldn’t say the same for very many of the players I watched in Croke Park the next day.
I’ve never seen a game like Dublin v Donegal before, one where for most of the game a backward pass was more effective than a forward pass. It was almost surreal to watch, fascinating in one way because of how the two teams set up, but terrible stuff at the same time.
Donegal have received a huge amount of criticism over how many men they got behind the ball but Dublin weren’t blameless either. Colm McFadden must have been thinking he was the best footballer in the country because there were times Dublin had three players marking him.
To see it from their point of view for a minute, it’s easy enough to get a handle on where both teams were coming from. When you’re mixing paint, you have to use the right colours. Dublin were always going to have to see for themselves how Donegal would come at that before committing to a plan themselves so I can see why they would have kept a few men back in the first half. But it made for horrific viewing.
I would still defend the right of both managers to set their teams up in whatever way they think will get results but even so, there’s a wider picture to think about.
Say you’re a young coach taking over a club team that has done nothing for a few years and is in the right frame of mind for a big idea or a big change. Well, this is a very effective short cut to success.
I don’t mean that it’s lazy because it surely isn’t – players need huge fitness and commitment to pull it off.
And actually, Dublin were fitter than Donegal on Sunday, which was a big reason they came through in the closing stages.
But in a results-based business, it will guarantee you keep every game close and, because other teams aren’t used to it on such a big scale, you’ll probably win more than you lose. Donegal have made very little impression on the championship in recent years but they came within a kick of a ball of an All-Ireland final this time around. That’s a remarkable rise in a short space of time and I can see plenty of coaches out there looking at them and deciding there’s a ready-made template there to work off.
This will tell you what an odd game it was – Kerry shouldn’t waste a minute thinking about it between now and the final. I think it’s a game to be completely disregarded just because it was so out of the ordinary. It was just a one-off and it will mean nothing come the final.
Dublin set themselves up for Donegal on Sunday, not for Kerry. Had they taken Donegal for granted, they would have been beaten but they didn’t and they weren’t.
When it comes to the final, their form against Tyrone will be a better pointer.
Even allowing for them paying Donegal all due respect, Dublin were overly conservative in the first half. They stood and let Donegal take their best shot before coming back at them, knowing they were fit enough to come through at the end.
I actually thought watching the game that if Dublin were a bit more adventurous, they could have won by a lot more. But instead, they decided to play the game on Donegal’s terms and trusted that they’d come out the other end of it. That decision had as much of an effect on the spectacle as Donegal’s set-up had.
At one point, Bernard Brogan took possession under the Hogan Stand and although five Donegal men converged upon him, there was no Dublin player inside the 65-metre line. If you stopped the DVD there in front of a room of young lads and asked them what options Brogan had in that split second, they’d know instinctively he was done for.
That ball was either going out over the sideline or Brogan was going to run into traffic or kick a Hail Mary shot. And all because Dublin weren’t getting players forward to help him out.
The main reason Dublin won in the end was players like Brogan kept their heads. He made the play of the game with his kick-pass across goal for Bryan Cullen’s point. He was under pressure, getting swarmed like he had been all day, fighting traffic as he was trying to look around him and yet he still managed to pick out a left-footed pass to Cullen for the crucial point that put Dublin ahead.
Doing that after all that had gone before was a sign of class and he went way up in my estimation on Sunday.
I’ve always thought he was a fine footballer but I still wouldn’t have classed him in the absolute top rank of players in the country. But the way he came through what must have been one of the least enjoyable games of his life was very impressive.
He knew he was going to have three or four fellas around him every time he touched the ball and that he was going to take plenty of hits and flakes all the way through. But he showed a level of maturity in his game on Sunday that I didn’t think was there beforehand.
I would have hated to play in that game. From a midfielder’s point of view, it wasn’t a game to relish at all, even though most of the play was between the two 45s.
There were hardly any kick-outs contested because both goalkeepers were usually happy to just flick out a short ball to one of the four defenders free in their full-back line.
All the usual rules of thumb went out the window. There was no accountability. Who was marking Cullen? Who was marking any of them? I feel I have a decent grasp of how the game is played and yet sitting in the stand, I couldn’t work out who was taking responsibility for stopping specific players in the opposition.
It was collective rather than man-to-man, obviously, but even so, surely at some point you have to be accountable to your peers if your man gets in a for a score? I’ve never seen a game like it before.
It wasn’t helped by the referee either. This is the point I’ve been making here all summer – a referee can make or break a game by the attitude he takes to it. Sometimes, all a referee needs to do is let a game flow and that will make it. But if ever a game needed breaking, it was this one.
Maurice Deegan just let far too many things slide, from stray slaps to kicking the ball away to just pure fouling that was let go as tackling.
Small things like that add up to a frustrating game. But even when it came to the big decisions, he sent off Diarmuid Connolly for nothing more than what a few Donegal players were doing the whole time. I just felt he kept the game tighter than it should have been and the net result was that Donegal stayed closer than a team scoring six points in an All-Ireland semi-final had any right to be.
Connolly was unlucky to go and if I was him I’d be raging at missing out on the final on the back of it. But Dublin shouldn’t waste too much time or energy trying to get him cleared for the final. That kind of thing can take your attention away from what you’re preparing for.
I remember back a few years ago when Paul Galvin got suspended after, well, let’s just say it was the time the referee dropped his notebook in Killarney. There was an attempt to try and get his suspension shortened and the whole thing had a bearing on our preparation for matches that summer. It turned into a big thing in the county. People would be stopping you to ask if Paul was going to be cleared and the whole thing became a distraction.
Dublin can’t afford that going into the final, even though it’s harsh on Connolly. Given the context of that game on Sunday, where there were Donegal men who played the game far rougher and did plenty more belting than him, it’s hard to argue he deserved to be the one who walked. There was much of a muchness between what he did and what some of the rest of them did in the game. What’s good for the goose should have been good for the gander.
But Dublin will have to move on and get ready for the final we were all afraid to mention before the Donegal game.
Dublin GAA is on a high now with teams in the minor finals in both hurling and football and now a senior final against Kerry to look forward to. Semi-finals are always games to be forgotten, never more so than this one.
As I was walking into Croke Park on Sunday, I saw Kevin Moran go through the gate ahead of me. He was always a hero of mine, although probably more as a Man United and Ireland player than as a Dub. He and Kevin Heffernan had a big hug for each other, like they maybe hadn’t seen each other in a while.
There was a real warmth between the two of them, the kind of thing that lasts for years after a great team breaks up. It was a lovely moment, probably the highlight of the day for me. Mind you, that wouldn’t be hard, given the game that followed.

I dunno. Like Donegal were bad last year. I know they should have won the u21 all ireland last year but for Murphy hitting the crossbar with that penalty, but like to win Div 2, then an Ulster title, then beat Kildare and then give Dublin enough of it would surely suggest to anyone that this is a good template to follow, that if implemented correctly it could reap rewards. The amount of entertaining football games we see these is quite few, but I really have never seen anything like Donegal. Didn't see much of them this year I'll admit, other than then the Antrim game and most of the Kildare game. Was lucky enough to miss Sunday's game. I was hoping they'd lose to Dublin because I couldn't hack watching them in the final. I mean 13 aside would have down sides; less chance of making a team for example. However, there aren't many alternatives that are viable that encourage the use of the kick pass, and also make it more difficult to enforce this awful and extreme defensive structure.

By the way, I don't think O'Sé was having much of a cut at the Dubs at all from what I read there.

Jimoslimos

Mountainlad wrote: »

The suggestion that maybe we should have 13 aside games to make more space on a pitch for Football seem to appeal to me the more I say negativity like we've seen in recent times. This was being suggested the last couple of years, but given Donegal have now brought things to a new level, I think it or something similar has to be seriously considered.

TBH I don't really see 13-aside working as well as might be believed. If anything the extra space afforded will push teams to develop fitter, stronger athletes rather than concentrate on core skills.

But by all means it would be good to see it trialled in the league

keane2097

Jimoslimos wrote: »

TBH I don't really see 13-aside working as well as might be believed. If anything the extra space afforded will push teams to develop fitter, stronger athletes rather than concentrate on core skills.

this.

davegrohl48

I would say the footballers wouldn't look all that much different in 13 a side. It's still the same 13 best footballers after an intense training period of overall conditioning. I would say there would be a little more concentration on the skills and less on strength training. From what I'v seen the defenders stay back and the forwards stay up the pitch in 13 a side. In 15 a side your forwards are instructed some of them to fall back to defence and some to midfield or full forwards as far as half forward. Then often your defenders will roam up the pitch as well at times.
In 13 a side I have already seen where small very skillful forwards have benefitted and I'v seen the same players struggle in 15 a side. They were just able to get space to shoot easier in 13 a side and were in space when they got past the first defender. In 15 a side getting past your man does not mean you are automatically in space to shoot. Also they had room to come out and show for low balls kicked into the corner.
Agility and speed would be a big asset which would suit smaller men. Think of the way Cooper always gets past the first defender with his agility. So I would say there would be a big concentration on evasiveness using yer solo, bounce and side steps etc.

keane2097

There is absolutely no reason why Donegal's tactics wouldn't work in 13 a side exactly the same way they work in 15 a side.

Mountainlad

keane2097 wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason why Donegal's tactics wouldn't work in 13 a side exactly the same way they work in 15 a side.

More space, they'd need there players to be even faster then possible. It is noticable that 13 aside games are more open then 15 aside if you've seen one.

keane2097

Mountainlad wrote: »

More space, they'd need there players to be even faster then possible. It is noticable that 13 aside games are more open then 15 aside if you've seen one.

I doubt you've seen a 13 man team attempt to implement Donegal's tactics, so the sample is biased.

The system is based around defending the area straight in front of the goals. They don't need or use 15 men to do that.

There is plenty space against Donegal, just not where people have been attempting to put the ball against them.

Whenever they come up against a team with good forwards who can kick from the wings and from distance they'll be destroyed.

davegrohl48

Well in my opinion you are wrong.
Donegals tactics in 13 a side would only work against a very poor side.
Donegals tactics would have consideraly less chance of working against the competive sides they meet in championship.
- the ability to create a shooting opportunity from whithin 40 yards is not quite as difficult as in 15 a side.
- Donegals ability to score would be lessened as they would have even less players up the pitch than in 15 a side
- The chance of a goal being scored against Donegal are much greater in 13 a side
- Donegal would have to play as deep if not even deeper than in 15 a side meaning frees would be conceded a bit closer to their own goal as more of the game would be played in their half. Resulting frees are more scorable.

All of those four combined make Donegals tactics way less effective.

Surely Dublins forwards are a reasonable measure of good forwads. That is unfair to say otherwise. Bernard Brogan, Alan Brogan if they can't score more than 8 and other reasonable forwards lines have failed that is surely proof enough.

Mountainlad

keane2097 wrote: »

I doubt you've seen a 13 man team attempt to implement Donegal's tactics, so the sample is biased.

The system is based around defending the area straight in front of the goals. They don't need or use 15 men to do that.

There is plenty space against Donegal, just not where people have been attempting to put the ball against them.

Whenever they come up against a team with good forwards who can kick from the wings and from distance they'll be destroyed.

They haven't come up against any of those teams so far. True, I've never seen anyone do what Donegal did to that extent in any form, but direct comparisons between the same teams playing 15 v 15 or 13 v 13 it's been more open so I think in general it would be harder to do.

keane2097

Who have Donegal beaten this year to make people lose their minds about this?

A Tyrone team by a couple of points that Dublin annihilated, and an incredibly overrated, and almost equally defensive Kildare team.

And here we're talking about making probably the most drastic change in the history of the game to stop them?

lol tbh, they won't make an AI final in the next five years unless they get a bizarrely favourable draw, they certainly won't win one.

hisholinessnb

If the game was switched to 13 a side Donegal wouldn't even have the one token forward.
Hello nil nil draws!:D

Mountainlad

keane2097 wrote: »

Who have Donegal beaten this year to make people lose their minds about this?

A Tyrone team by a couple of points that Dublin annihilated, and an incredibly overrated, and almost equally defensive Kildare team.

And here we're talking about making probably the most drastic change in the history of the game to stop them?

lol tbh, they won't make an AI final in the next five years unless they get a bizarrely favourable draw, they certainly won't win one.

What team are out there that they wouldn't beat? They'd beat anything in Leinster bar Dublin (and they weren't miles away on that account). I'd say they'd beat anyone in Connaught. They've beaten everyone in Ulster. So Kerry really are the only other team, because Cork were average this year.l

Maybe this is just one of those years for them, and next year people will be able to effectively get around there strategies, but at the moment it's pretty bad.

hisholinessnb

Mountainlad wrote: »

They'd beat anything in Leinster bar Dublin (and they weren't miles away on that account)

You could say Kildare may have something to say about that having drawn with them over 70 minutes and would have beaten Donegal only for the worst square ball decision I've seen in some time.

Just because they scraped past them this year does not mean they would by right beat them again.

Mountainlad

hisholinessnb wrote: »

You could say Kildare may have something to say about that having drawn with them over 70 minutes and would have beaten Donegal only for the worst square ball decision I've seen in some time.

Just because they scraped past them this year does not mean they would by right beat them again.

Well true, but I'm not assuming Donegal are going to make every semi final from now til when ever McGuinness leaves nor am I suggesting that these 4 teams will always make semi finals or whatever. And I agree about that shocking decision. However, given this is Doengal's first year with McGuinness in charge, they'll have better preparation next year, and they had a successful u21 team last year, I think dismissing them now is also premature. Point is, I really don't want other teams following. I just want to hear what could be done to prevent them being so boring.

I would agree that it probably is a bit rash at the moment to introduce 13 aside teams, but I think it is worth thinking about because if things were to get any worse...

keane2097

Mountainlad wrote: »

What team are out there that they wouldn't beat? They'd beat anything in Leinster bar Dublin (and they weren't miles away on that account). I'd say they'd beat anyone in Connaught. They've beaten everyone in Ulster. So Kerry really are the only other team, because Cork were average this year.l

Maybe this is just one of those years for them, and next year people will be able to effectively get around there strategies, but at the moment it's pretty bad.

Cork were missing half their team after the Munster final, the team that played Kerry in Munster would destroy Donegal, so would Kerry.

Dublin would pretty much never lose to them, they just play too defensively themselves to ever look comfortable.

They straight up robbed Kildare in the QF, and I'd fancy Mayo & Roscommon to give Mayo a fairly tough time of it.

Their system is completely out of balance, and like any unbalanced system it's super-exploitable. The problem is it's new, so teams weren't quite sure how to exploit it tactically this year.

Dublin showed how awful a system it is at dealing with players running with the ball from deep at speed - along with being overlapped - in the last ten minutes.

Cork or Kerry's forwards (Kerry's backs too) would show how easy it is to exploit by kicking from range, a team combining the two approaches would have no trouble.

On the other hand, they pose zero threat themselves, and give you as many chances as you need to put them to bed.

I'd be amazed if they win Ulster next year without a pretty visible shift in the balance of the team, and even if they do it's an indictment of every other team's inability to exploit a ridiculously exploitable system.

hisholinessnb

The element of surprise will be gone next year also with most teams having plenty of time to think about exactly how to play them, which should be interesting.

Het-Field

keane2097 wrote: »

Cork were missing half their team after the Munster final, the team that played Kerry in Munster would destroy Donegal, so would Kerry.

Dublin would pretty much never lose to them, they just play too defensively themselves to ever look comfortable.

They straight up robbed Kildare in the QF, and I'd fancy Mayo & Roscommon to give Mayo a fairly tough time of it.

Their system is completely out of balance, and like any unbalanced system it's super-exploitable. The problem is it's new, so teams weren't quite sure how to exploit it tactically this year.

Dublin showed how awful a system it is at dealing with players running with the ball from deep at speed - along with being overlapped - in the last ten minutes.

Cork or Kerry's forwards (Kerry's backs too) would show how easy it is to exploit by kicking from range, a team combining the two approaches would have no trouble.

On the other hand, they pose zero threat themselves, and give you as many chances as you need to put them to bed.

I'd be amazed if they win Ulster next year without a pretty visible shift in the balance of the team, and even if they do it's an indictment of every other team's inability to exploit a ridiculously exploitable system.

Agree with this entirely.

What concerns me is the potential for a plethora of smaller teams to take cognisence of Donegal's achievements, and seek to emulate Donegal's style of play. Naturally, this will mean a limited, and uber defensive game will be employed by teams which simply dont have the guile or talent to break into the top 15. Naturally, this could be very detrimental on the whole as it simply becomes a battle for the likes of Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Kildare, and Mayo etc to break down blanket defences, in the hope that the defending team will conceede little enough that they may achieve victory by scoring 6 or 7 points.

DoctaDee

hisholinessnb wrote: »

The element of surprise will be gone next year also with most teams having plenty of time to think about exactly how to play them, which should be interesting.

Ya know what, I really think you have to play them first to appreciate the enormity of the task in hand .. BB said as much post match. Dublin now understand what's required, the NFL will give the other good teams that experience also.... come next years AI Champs, unless theres a drastic rethink, normal service will resume .... a bit like Tomas O'Flaharta and Westmeath were found out in due course

keane2097

Het-Field wrote: »

Agree with this entirely.

What concerns me is the potential for a plethora of smaller teams to take cognisence of Donegal's achievements, and seek to emulate Donegal's style of play. Naturally, this will mean a limited, and uber defensive game will be employed by teams which simply dont have the guile or talent to break into the top 15. Naturally, this could be very detrimental on the whole as it simply becomes a battle for the likes of Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Kildare, and Mayo etc to break down blanket defences, in the hope that the defending team will conceede little enough that they may achieve victory by scoring 6 or 7 points.

As long as good football beats this type of system year after year, as it will, teams will soon lose the stomach for this sort of thing.

Het-Field

keane2097 wrote: »

As long as good football beats this type of system year after year, as it will, teams will soon lose the stomach for this sort of thing.

Agreed. But the smaller expectations of some of the smaller counties may be served by adopting such a system.

I dont think Carlow would turn down a chance to have a day out in a Leinster Final, if playing puke football got them there. If Donegal's footballing style got Clare to an AI 4th Round, they would grab it with both hands. All they would need is a favourable draw against weaker provincial sides, and it is achievable. The expectations and desires of the fans of Kerry, Tyrone, Cork,Kildare, Mayo and Dublin are simply not the same as the desires of traditional weaklings of AI Football.

davegrohl48

Also being honest about it the quality of the player required to implement the system is not as high. It needs one or two good forwards (McFadden/Murphy).
Look at Wicklow they have Leighton Glynn and Austin OMalley.
Then a whole bunch of mobile men around the 6 foot mark who can handpass. Players need to be of a reasonable size to make sure every tackle counts. They need to have great stamina moreso than speed to make sure again and again they are in the area where play is developing. Wicklow are endurance type lads rather than speedsters after their endurance training under Micko.
It's not the kind of defending man against man as for example Marc O'Se on Andy Moran.
Key to the system is holding up the forward with aggressive but fair tackling.
So it looks straight up as being the obvious way to bring some limited success in the qualifiers to a smaller county.
Aggressive tackling is easily coached as regards correct foot position, positioning, hunting in packs, when to retreat and let opposition player have it in his own half. Basically at lots of training sessions this area is practiced.
Then you work on strength and endurance.
Leaving aside Donegal. The typical play nowadays of teams playing sweepers and forwards defending back around midfield/half back. It's being developing since Mayo '96 maybe with Colm McMenamon and I think the amount of good games has gone down.

Glenbhoy

keane2097 wrote: »

Who have Donegal beaten this year to make people lose their minds about this?

A Tyrone team by a couple of points that Dublin annihilated, and an incredibly overrated, and almost equally defensive Kildare team.

And here we're talking about making probably the most drastic change in the history of the game to stop them?

lol tbh, they won't make an AI final in the next five years unless they get a bizarrely favourable draw, they certainly won't win one.

Tyrone should have beaten Donegal regardless, they had a lot of bad wides and many of them were relatively straight forward free kicks.
They beat a Derry team shorn of it's 3 best players.
They beat Kildare who have been reknowned for having problems shooting for a few years now, who had to play their only top class forward at midfield.

What got me about Donegal, wasn't their system which I found incredibly fascinating to watch (I know it was awful football, but the work rate really was amazing), it was the cynical fouls, the stopping play with bad tackles (Murphy was rightly booked for one on Sunday), the niggly stuff. A way to combat that would be via the introduction of team fouls like we see in basketball. Allow a team 5 or 10 of these per game and after that a 14 yd free in front of the goals is awarded for each one.

It's my belief that Kerry would have beaten them well in the final, and do you know what, I'd actually be more interested in seeing Donegal v Kerry than Dublin v Kerry. It would be fascinating imo to see the aristrocats of gaelic football take on the Donegal system. As it is we'll get to see Donegal lite take on Kerry (but of course there'll be barely a word said about Dublin's tactics).

Het-Field

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Tyrone should have beaten Donegal regardless, they had a lot of bad wides and many of them were relatively straight forward free kicks.
They beat a Derry team shorn of it's 3 best players.
They beat Kildare who have been reknowned for having problems shooting for a few years now, who had to play their only top class forward at midfield.

What got me about Donegal, wasn't their system which I found incredibly fascinating to watch (I know it was awful football, but the work rate really was amazing), it was the cynical fouls, the stopping play with bad tackles (Murphy was rightly booked for one on Sunday), the niggly stuff. A way to combat that would be via the introduction of team fouls like we see in basketball. Allow a team 5 or 10 of these per game and after that a 14 yd free in front of the goals is awarded for each one.

It's my belief that Kerry would have beaten them well in the final, and do you know what, I'd actually be more interested in seeing Donegal v Kerry than Dublin v Kerry. It would be fascinating imo to see the aristrocats of gaelic football take on the Donegal system. As it is we'll get to see Donegal lite take on Kerry (but of course there'll be barely a word said about Dublin's tactics).

In fairness, Dublin actually play some football as was demonstrated in the Kildare and Tyrone game

keane2097

Het-Field wrote: »

In fairness, Dublin actually play some football as was demonstrated in the Kildare and Tyrone game

Yeah wouldn't have too much of an issue with how Dublin have played so far this year tbh, although starting Cahill against Donegal was dreadfully negative.

davegrohl48

I don't know how he played earlier in the year. But I thought Cahill was very good against Tyrone. He passed well and got a few nice scores from play. So probably reason he was retained against Donegal.
May have been picked to man mark Lacey though so I see your point. You'd have to know what instructions he was sent out with, whether it was play yer own game or track Lacey all the time.

DoctaDee

keane2097 wrote: »

Yeah wouldn't have too much of an issue with how Dublin have played so far this year tbh, although starting Cahill against Donegal was dreadfully negative.

..... and starting him on the full forward line v Tyrone .. albeit he was only there for the throw in ? ... he ran great attacking channels against Tyrone and was a constant threat .. Barry was not suited to the game on Sunday, he's not physically imposing enough......

keane2097

He's a good player, but playing him against Donegal was a mistake considering how Donegal line up.

Glenbhoy

keane2097 wrote: »

Yeah wouldn't have too much of an issue with how Dublin have played so far this year tbh, although starting Cahill against Donegal was dreadfully negative.

Prob won the game for them all the same, the tackle on Lacey meant that Donegal lost their most effective player.

DoctaDee

keane2097 wrote: »

He's a good player, but playing him against Donegal was a mistake considering how Donegal line up.

Yup agreed in hindsight it was .. personally (again with hindsight) I woudda started Ross McConnell

Glenbhoy

Het-Field wrote: »

In fairness, Dublin actually play some football as was demonstrated in the Kildare and Tyrone game

We'll see what they try for the final, but there's no doubting they are a pretty defensive team. I don't have a problem with that as when it's played well as Tyrone have done in the past (and by Dublin and Kildare more recently) it can be very fluid and exciting to watch.

DoctaDee

There's a big difference between a defensive team and having a good defense ... Dublin are the latter

Glenbhoy

DoctaDee wrote: »

There's a big difference between a defensive team and having a good defense ... Dublin are the latter

I know, but I disagree with you on that.

Het-Field

Glenbhoy wrote: »

I know, but I disagree with you on that.

I must ask, on what basis?

This new defence has been a mean defence during its tenure. The only screw up was the odd-ball and freak five goal concession to Meath when the defence was in its infancy.

It has conceeded no more than a good defence should.

DoctaDee

Glenbhoy wrote: »

DoctaDee wrote: »

There's a big difference between a defensive team and having a good defense ... Dublin are the latter

I know, but I disagree with you on that.

Ya see whatcha wanna see brother...

Glenbhoy

Very true, we all see things differently. To be honest I haven't seen this Dublin team live this year and without doing so, it's not possible for me to completely form an opinion on their defensiveness or otherwise. The general consensus amongst the media is that Dublin play a blanket defence and attack at pace and directly. Tyrone played an identical game for years and barring the All Ireland semi and final of 2003 (which you could almost forgive them for as it was their first all ireland) they were usually a joy to watch.
Even watching the game on Sunday on tv, one could see that Dublin were not committing any numbers forward, as that Dara O'Se article points out, McFadden was usually surrounded by 3 men - to what purpose exactly?
If I go to the final I will come back and update my opinon as to whether the media are right or wrong on this one.

corny

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Very true, we all see things differently. To be honest I haven't seen this Dublin team live this year and without doing so, it's not possible for me to completely form an opinion on their defensiveness or otherwise. The general consensus amongst the media is that Dublin play a blanket defence and attack at pace and directly. Tyrone played an identical game for years and barring the All Ireland semi and final of 2003 (which you could almost forgive them for as it was their first all ireland) they were usually a joy to watch.
Even watching the game on Sunday on tv, one could see that Dublin were not committing any numbers forward, as that Dara O'Se article points out, McFadden was usually surrounded by 3 men - to what purpose exactly?
If I go to the final I will come back and update my opinon as to whether the media are right or wrong on this one.

So essentially what you're saying your opinion doesn't hold much credence?

Dublin lined up in an orthodox fashion on Sunday. Its not their fault 5 defenders were marking fresh air, that would be Donegals for not pushing men forward. Gilroy didn't want to play the game on Donegals terms so what you had was a chess match for 60 minutes until Dublin upped the intensity against a tired Donegal team.

A defensive team doesn't get 19 points from play against a good Tyrone team, some fantastic scores too. You're slating them because they've good young defenders, they defend well and work like dogs to get the ball back. Either that or its another case of clutching at straws to criticise the Dublin footballers.

Glenbhoy

corny wrote: »

So essentially what you're saying your opinion doesn't hold much credence?

Dublin lined up in an orthodox fashion on Sunday. Its not their fault 5 defenders were marking fresh air, that would be Donegals for not pushing men forward. Gilroy didn't want to play the game on Donegals terms so what you had was a chess match for 60 minutes until Dublin upped the intensity against a tired Donegal team.

A defensive team doesn't get 19 points from play against a good Tyrone team, some fantastic scores too. You're slating them because they've good young defenders, they defend well and work like dogs to get the ball back. Either that or its another case of clutching at straws to criticise the Dublin footballers.

I am not saying anything about the credence or otherwise of my opinion, I'm explaining what my opinion is based on.

I'm not going to go back through my posts on this thread, but I'm pretty sure I didn't slate Dublin and I actually thought I was being complementary to Dublin by comparing them to Tyrone, I think it's maybe another case of someone going out of their way to be offended.
From the amount of commentary on this Dublin side and its tactics, I honestly thought it was well established that they play a defensive blanket type game. As I say, if I go to the final I'll update you on my opinion after that, can't be trusting the bloody media after all.