Right to refuse service: Free choice or Discrimination?

The King of Moo

Last week I was arguing with a friend about an old case in which a Christian B & B owner refused a gay couple a twin room in their B & B as, according to him, he only allowed married couples to stay in twin rooms due to his beliefs. As the couple were technically civil partners, they therefore couldn't stay (of course the owner simply might not have liked gay people). He was subsequently sued successfully by the couple.
Here's two contrasting takes on the case:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/jan/18/christian-hoteliers-gay-couple-equality?intcmp=239

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338232/We-set-claim-Christian-B-amp-B-owners-sued-refusing-let-gay-couple-share-double-bed.html

It got me thinking and I'm in two minds about it. It's terrible to be discriminated against having done nothing wrong, and I'd be raging if I were refused service of some kind for being Irish or cool, for example.

But I also felt some sympathy for the owner, and the libertarian in me (who's getting bigger as I get older) thinks that it's his business and maybe he can run it as he sees fit (though I might be biased as the couple look smug, are fairly well off, and there's suggestions that they targeted him as a test case, and the guy's pretty old).

And what if a group of rowdy lads on a stag night wanted to stay? Would he be obliged to let them stay, even if he thought they were likely to be noisy and troublesome?

You see refusal of service a lot here in pubs, with travellers often being turned away, and (as mentioned in the snobbiest comments thread earlier) people wearing certain clothes not being allowed, and of course lots of people in nightclubs.
I don't know the exact legal situation in Ireland with refusing admission for pubs, shops and B & Bs/hotels etc.

So what do you think?
Should businesses be allowed to choose to serve whomever they want?
Or is it right to have legislation stopping businesses from discriminating against certain potential customers?
Does it depend on the type of business?


TL;DR: Should businesses be allowed to serve whomever they want?

Seanchai

The King of Moo wrote: »

Last week I was arguing with a friend about an old case in which a Christian B & B owner refused a gay couple a twin room in their B & B as, according to him, he only allowed married couples to stay in twin rooms due to his beliefs. As the couple were technically civil partners, they therefore couldn't stay (of course the owner simply might not have liked gay people). He was subsequently sued successfully by the couple.
Here's two contrasting takes on the case:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/jan/18/christian-hoteliers-gay-couple-equality?intcmp=239

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338232/We-set-claim-Christian-B-amp-B-owners-sued-refusing-let-gay-couple-share-double-bed.html

It got me thinking and I'm in two minds about it. It's terrible to be discriminated against having done nothing wrong, and I'd be raging if I were refused service of some kind for being Irish or cool, for example.

But I also felt some sympathy for the owner, and the libertarian in me (who's getting bigger as I get older) thinks that it's his business and maybe he can run it as he sees fit (though I might be biased as the couple look smug, are fairly well off, and there's suggestions that they targeted him as a test case, and the guy's pretty old).

And what if a group of rowdy lads on a stag night wanted to stay? Would he be obliged to let them stay, even if he thought they were likely to be noisy and troublesome?

You see refusal of service a lot here in pubs, with travellers often being turned away, and (as mentioned in the snobbiest comments thread earlier) people wearing certain clothes not being allowed, and of course lots of people in nightclubs.
I don't know the exact legal situation in Ireland with refusing admission for pubs, shops and B & Bs/hotels etc.

So what do you think?
Should businesses be allowed to choose to serve whomever they want?
Or is it right to have legislation stopping businesses from discriminating against certain potential customers?
Does it depend on the type of business?


TL;DR: Should businesses be allowed to serve whomever they want?

Yes, you should have a right. You also should be denied a right to take any subsidy/grant/tax refund from state funds for your business/property if you exercise this right and refuse admission to a citizen of the same state because he/she is on your "prejudice list".

What's sauce for the goose...

mikemac

Equality Authority take Portmarnock Golf Club to court over women members and a court decision had to be overturned
Curves gyms don't allow men to join....

The King of Moo

Seanchai wrote: »

Yes, you should have a right. You also should be denied a right to take any subsidy/grant/tax refund from state funds for your business/property if you exercise this right and refuse admission to a citizen of the same state because he/she is on your "prejudice list".

What's sauce for the goose...

I think that's a good compromise.

Personally I find the thought of discrimination like in the case of the B & B owner pretty abhorrent, but on the other hand there's a part of me that thinks that legislation on discrimination can get too close to basically legislating on personal opinion.
We might not like if people hold such opinions, but maybe the government shouldn't interfere in that.
Like having harsher punishments for hate crimes: surely the crime is the important thing, not the reason the person did it.

But yeah, allowing people to choose to serve anyone they like but forcing them to "opt out" and receive no assistance from the state is an interesting idea.

tayto lover

mikemac wrote: »

Equality Authority take Portmarnock Golf Club to court over women members and a court decision had to be overturned
Curves gyms don't allow men to join....

This club refused eight of us entry to their bar years ago because we were not wearing shirts and ties. If we had known this earlier we would not have paid £45 each to play the course. I hope every woman in Ireland sues them.

The King of Moo

mikemac wrote: »

Equality Authority take Portmarnock Golf Club to court over women members and a court decision had to be overturned
Curves gyms don't allow men to join....

I'd forgotten about the Portmarnock case. Didn't they claim that as they were a private club they were allowed to choose their own members?

Still seem like a business to me though, so the same rules should apply in both cases.

hatrickpatrick

Businesses do not have human rights. Human rights come before entity rights.

AhSureTisGrand

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Businesses do not have human rights. Human rights come before entity rights.

So sole traders are grand then?

Logical Fallacy

The King of Moo wrote: »

So what do you think?
Should businesses be allowed to choose to serve whomever they want?
Or is it right to have legislation stopping businesses from discriminating against certain potential customers?
Does it depend on the type of business?

Technically all business can refuse service to whoever they like.

It's all about the why.

Overheal

Limitations on Freedoms. Not even sure how this topic came up.

Can't refuse for invalid reasons, those invalid reasons being Protected Categories.

I'm sure this relates back to the nightclub and the gay couple the other week that I missed out on - but from the joint statement released I'll bet it transpired the gay couple was actually at fault and the bar wasn't actually refusing them or kicking them out based on their homosexuality but rather their insistence to be able to break the rules of the dance floor, if I am remembering that situation correctly.

Similarly airlines discriminate against pregnant women not because of their womanhood but because cabin compression, turbulence and air travel can harm the fetus. Hence there is no lawsuit to file in that circumstance.

Even the YMCA doesn't require that you actually be Male, or Christian, to enroll in or use their facilities and organizations.

The King of Moo

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Technically all business can refuse service to whoever they like.

It's all about the why.

Therein lies the difficulty. If I were homophobic and refused a gay person a room in my hypothetical B &B, but never told him why I was refusing him, how can it be proven I refused him because he was gay?

And there's also the problem of deciding which reasons are valid and which aren't.

Snakeblood

The King of Moo wrote: »

Last week I was arguing with a friend about an old case in which a Christian B & B owner refused a gay couple a twin room in their B & B as, according to him, he only allowed married couples to stay in twin rooms due to his beliefs. As the couple were technically civil partners, they therefore couldn't stay (of course the owner simply might not have liked gay people). He was subsequently sued successfully by the couple.
Here's two contrasting takes on the case:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/jan/18/christian-hoteliers-gay-couple-equality?intcmp=239

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338232/We-set-claim-Christian-B-amp-B-owners-sued-refusing-let-gay-couple-share-double-bed.html

It got me thinking and I'm in two minds about it. It's terrible to be discriminated against having done nothing wrong, and I'd be raging if I were refused service of some kind for being Irish or cool, for example.

But I also felt some sympathy for the owner, and the libertarian in me (who's getting bigger as I get older) thinks that it's his business and maybe he can run it as he sees fit (though I might be biased as the couple look smug, are fairly well off, and there's suggestions that they targeted him as a test case, and the guy's pretty old).

And what if a group of rowdy lads on a stag night wanted to stay? Would he be obliged to let them stay, even if he thought they were likely to be noisy and troublesome?

You see refusal of service a lot here in pubs, with travellers often being turned away, and (as mentioned in the snobbiest comments thread earlier) people wearing certain clothes not being allowed, and of course lots of people in nightclubs.
I don't know the exact legal situation in Ireland with refusing admission for pubs, shops and B & Bs/hotels etc.

So what do you think?
Should businesses be allowed to choose to serve whomever they want?
Or is it right to have legislation stopping businesses from discriminating against certain potential customers?
Does it depend on the type of business?


TL;DR: Should businesses be allowed to serve whomever they want?

As a general rule of thumb, whatever the Daily Mail is advising is completely stupid.

Logical Fallacy

The King of Moo wrote: »

Therein lies the difficulty. If I were homophobic and refused a gay person a room in my hypothetical B &B, but never told him why I was refusing him, how can it be proven I refused him because he was gay?

And there's also the problem of deciding which reasons are valid and which aren't.

Exactly. The problem is if you are homophobic you may have done or said things to people that imply you are homophobic. As such if the person decides to take a case against you it may be quite easy for them to prove a pattern of homophobic sentiment and actions which could be used to prove that the reason you denied them service is because you just don't like gay people.

It's kind of complicated from both sides.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Anyone else think the thread was going to be about bin charges?

orourkeda

Throwing people out or abusing them is the only thing that makes my working day bearable.

Taking this opportunity away would not allow the chance to reinforce my utter disdain for the human race

whydoibother?

There should be a list of important grounds that people are not allowed to discriminate on:

Age
Gender
Race
Sexual Orientation
Disability
Religion

etc.

What if it's a small town and there is only one or two providers of whatever service it is?

Also what if the provider has a monopoly nationally or there are only one or two competitors?

As for things like dress codes, I think they are fair enough generally speaking. A dress code doesn't normally go to the core of who you are. I can easily change out of my jeans into something smarter. I cannot change the fact that I'm female. (realistically)

The King of Moo

orourkeda wrote: »

Throwing people out or abusing them is the only thing that makes my working day bearable.

Taking this opportunity away would not allow the chance to reinforce my utter disdain for the human race

Where do you work?
And what are your reasons, if any, for throwing people out?

Cat Melodeon

The King of Moo wrote: »

Therein lies the difficulty. If I were homophobic and refused a gay person a room in my hypothetical B &B, but never told him why I was refusing him, how can it be proven I refused him because he was gay?

And there's also the problem of deciding which reasons are valid and which aren't.

There are nine grounds for discrimination defined under law. If you refuse service on the basis of any of those grounds, you are in breach of legislation and can be sued. If you refuse service on some other grounds (ie refusing to accept larger groups of people on a stag because you fear they will damage the property) you are within your rights.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_authority.html
Under the equality legislation discrimination based on any one of 9 distinct grounds is unlawful. These grounds are:

• Gender
• Civil status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age (does not apply to a person under 16)
• Disability
• Race
• Membership of the Traveller community.

The King of Moo

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

There are nine grounds for discrimination defined under law. If you refuse service on the basis of any of those grounds, you are in breach of legislation and can be sued. If you refuse service on some other grounds (ie refusing to accept larger groups of people on a stag because you fear they will damage the property) you are within your rights.

Is the business owner obliged to give an explanation if they have a complaint brought against them, or could they just say they just didn't want to serve the person?

And could they simply say they didn't like the look of the person, or some obvious excuse like that they didn't like their haircut, or does their reason for refusal have to be a reasonable one, with the owner being put out somehow if they were to serve the person?

mikemac

If you own accommodation lying and saying you are double booked avoids all problems

You have an angry customers, you'll have to give a refund but at least you'll never find yourself in court

Saila

The King of Moo wrote: »

Last week I was arguing with a friend about an old case in which a Christian B & B owner refused a gay couple a twin room in their B & B as, according to him, he only allowed married couples to stay in twin rooms due to his beliefs. As the couple were technically civil partners, they therefore couldn't stay (of course the owner simply might not have liked gay people). He was subsequently sued successfully by the couple.
Here's two contrasting takes on the case:

Does it depend on the type of business?


TL;DR: Should businesses be allowed to serve whomever they want?

is there demand for divorced couples to stay in B & B's at the same time

Logical Fallacy

Saila wrote: »

is there demand for divorced couples to stay in B & B's at the same time

I think the implication is if a couple of not married, as in boyfriend and girlfriend they will also not be allowed to share the same bed.

whydoibother?

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

There are nine grounds for discrimination defined under law. If you refuse service on the basis of any of those grounds, you are in breach of legislation and can be sued. If you refuse service on some other grounds (ie refusing to accept larger groups of people on a stag because you fear they will damage the property) you are within your rights.

I agree with the existence of the list, I just wonder whether it covers all the potential groups that might be discriminated against and all the circumstances in which discrimination might occur.

The King of Moo

whydoibother? wrote: »

I agree with the existence of the list, I just wonder whether it covers all the potential groups that might be discriminated against and all the circumstances in which discrimination might occur.

Agreed, people will always find reasons to discriminate against other people, and I think the list would just grow and grow.

Ideally of course we wouldn't need a list as there'd be no discrimination, but that's more than wishful thinking.

lastlaugh

Interesting Thread OP.

Consider the following.

A Nigerian opens a Pub called 'Brothers Only'

A German opens a Pub called 'Seig Heil'

A straight bloke opens a Pub called 'There's nothing like a nice wet Pussy'
(with a picture of smiling wet cat beside a fire)

A Gay opens a pub called 'We are Gay!'
(With a picture of a load of Police & Cowboys looking ecstatic)

Granted, these are outrageous examples.

BUT, is it not the owners perogative to target specific groups of clientele at the expense of others?

Although legislation exists to stop discrimination, is it 'wrong' to model an establishment according to one's personnel beliefs?

Daith

The King of Moo wrote: »

Is the business owner obliged to give an explanation if they have a complaint brought against them, or could they just say they just didn't want to serve the person?

From what I remember in that B&B case, they had a sign saying only married hetrosexual people could share a bed.

I admire their honesty and it's a shame that someone else who would lie about a refusal wouldnt get sued.

looky loo

I used to run my own guesthouse....experiences as follows:-

- Had no problem with gays...very mannerly, didnt steal the towels or the batteries out of the tv remote, room was grand when they left.

- Hen nights....room was like something out of 'The Hangover' when they left, up all nite with them shouting and roaring from all the alchohol, all towels robbed, no batteries in remotes...

- germans, lovely up at 8am gone by 9, never a bother with them.

- Irish 20-30 age group, out til 6am, couldnt get them out of bed until 2pm, nightmare for other guests waiting to get in.
Didnt steal towels, could barely walk or look at the sun.

- no dogs allowed though, one woman did sneak her dog in, denied it and then he ran down the hall....was funny...:pac:

Its an experience running a guesthouse folks an experience!

The King of Moo

lastlaugh wrote: »

Interesting Thread OP.

Consider the following.

A Nigerian opens a Pub called 'Brothers Only'

A German opens a Pub called 'Seig Heil'

A straight bloke opens a Pub called 'There's nothing like a nice wet Pussy'
(with a picture of smiling wet cat beside a fire)

A Gay opens a pub called 'We are Gay!'
(With a picture of a load of Police & Cowboys looking ecstatic)

Granted, these are outrageous examples.

BUT, is it not the owners perogative to target specific groups of clientele at the expense of others?

Although legislation exists to stop discrimination, is it 'wrong' to model an establishment according to one's personnel beliefs?

I think the problem is drawing the line and defining what is unacceptable discrimination. Many businesses to some extent discriminates against some people in that they're choosy.

The examples above are easy to tackle as the discrimination is so blatant.
But somewhere with a dress code banning soccer jerseys to stop "riff raff" coming in is harder to legislate against as it's less inflammatory and harder to prove that there's discrimination against a particular group.

But finding the line in between having a dress code and banning people because of the colour of their skin in order to determine what's acceptable discrimination and what's not, for instance, is difficult.

criticalcritic

Any place that refuses anyone service should be burned down as a warning from human beings that this sh.t wont fly on planet earth

The King of Moo

Daith wrote: »

From what I remember in that B&B case, they had a sign saying only married hetrosexual people could share a bed.

I admire their honesty and it's a shame that someone else who would lie about a refusal wouldnt get sued.

The fact that they had the sign also raises the argument that potential customers were well aware in advance of the situation and should have looked for another place to stay (though apparently there's not many in the area).

There are also some suggestions that the couple knew the policy, I think maybe from the place's website or just its reputation, and deliberately chose it, knowing they'd be refused.

The religion issue also brings up the issue of whether the B & B owner's right to freedom of religious expression were infringed by the lawsuit, though I personally don't think religion and business are a good mix.

Daith

criticalcritic wrote: »

Any place that refuses anyone service should be burned down as a warning from human beings that this sh.t wont fly on planet earth

Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

liamcun

Hi there,

I have a problem with something. This week I was refused entry to a lisstock mart i.e. the manager stoped me from buying or selling livestock in the mart and further stated that he was putting me out of the mart forever. I made a complaint to him sometime ago about a shortcoming that I saw with the service the mart was providing and he became infuriated by it. I am presuming this is the reason why he is putting me out of the mart for good. He is putting me out of the mart without any just reason. Can he do this? Can anyone help me with this problem? Some urgeant advice would be very much appreciated.
Thanks.

Hi Liamcun.

Boards.ie cannot give legal advice. Perhaps talk your local citizens advice bureau for further information