Hello - looking for Frederick Andrews, Dublin

littlealison

Can't find the thread for a general Hello!

Hi. I'm new here today, have been working on my family history for 18 months.
I have a 'brick wall' in Dublin about my ggrandfather Frederick Andrews, who was a 'master painter', born 1838-1842. I haven't yet got his birth certificate, can I get it on this information? I don't know his origins either.
I know he was married on 3rd August 1863 to Anne Birmingham /Bermingham. He probably died in 1918, is in both available censuses, then staying with in-laws.

His father was John Andrews and he was a pawnbroker. Family story - his father was also John and he was one of six brothers...that's all I know. I don't know if he was from Dublin.

All the earlier records I have are in Dublin, and this family is connected with 4, Ardee St and 20, St Mary’s Terrace, South Circular Road.

Frederick and Anne had nine or ten children, some of them pawnbrokers. Eva became a Professor of Music, Annie married a fisherman, my grandmother, Adelaide Marian was born in 1876, and registered as Caroline…..married in 1904 and went to Glasgow.


Does anyone know anything about this family?

littlealison

That sounds a bit silly. Why can I never get it right on a first post?
I mean, can anyone tell me about the origins of this family!

pinkypinky

Hi Alison,

Welcome!

I'm sorry to tell you that there are no birth certs in Ireland prior to 1864, so your great grandfather won't have one. However, we may well be able to find a baptismal record for him.

Am I right in thinking this is him on the 1911?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Percy_Place/9373/

I can't find him on the 1901. Does his place of birth say anything other than Dublin City?

Now, I went straight to Irishgenealogy.ie to look at COI parish registers for Dublin.

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name2=&name=frederick+andrews&location=dublin&dd=&mm=&yy=&submit=Search&sort=date&pageSize=100&type=&diocese=DUBLIN+%28COI%29&parish=&century=&decade=

The above link is all COI items mentioning a Frederick Andrews. You'll see that it includes his marriage and most of his children but not a baptism. This is unfortunate and likely means that his baptism was in a church whose parish records do not survive. As far as I know, the RCB library (the Anglican Church's library holds most of the COI records and all have been scanned, along with those in the National Archives).

Shane may be able to help further with trade directories - a pawnbroker and master painter sound likely to be in one. I've found him in Slaters directory of 1894 listed under signwriters at 5 Seapoint Terrace in Irishtown.

littlealison

Hello Pinkypinky.
Fred is on the 1901 census as Fredrick. Birth Dublin. Irish Church, Painting Contractor. - Yes, that's him in 1911.
I looked at the Irishgenealogy site, which has been very useful. but not for the early Andrews family. It's too early for records, is it.
Thanks for looking, doesn't sound very hopeful, but you never know..the signwriter bit is new to me, thankyou.

Shane, I remember you from other forums - Hi. Thanks again for previous help. Can you help with this?
cheers, Alison.

shanew

found a few directory details to start off with...

Frederick's father is listed in Thom's 1879 as :

John Andrews, pawnboker, 4 Ardee Street

and in the 1884 trades index for Pawnbrokers he is listed as :

John Andrews, 4 Ardee St., 159 Old Church St. & 58 Bride St.

On the 1911 return Frederick gives his place of birth as Dublin City - so Irish Genealogy website is the place to try for earlier vital records. As far as I can tell they have most of the surviving Church of Ireland records for the city area..


Shane

littlealison

That's really quick, and useful - I have been looking at the Freeman's Journal on the British Library site....there are far too many John Andrewses, and none attached to the word 'pawnbroker'.

But I did find a small reference to a John Andrews in 1841 - a Patrick Byrne was admitted as a freeman of Dublin on the 6th December, on claim of marriage to a daughter of John Andrews - the thing here being I already know he was a pawnbroker, so it could well be the right John Andrews.

I can look under Andrews and the addresses now.
Um...how far back do your Directories go, Shane? - Alison

shanew

I had a quick look at Thom's 1852 and there are no Pawnbrokers with the surname Andrews listed in that year. 4 Ardee Street is listed as James Haigh, engineer, millwright, brass and iron works

Will check the 1860s later on, to see how far back John can be traced..


Shane

pinkypinky

Couple more directory entries for John Andrews

Slaters 1881 4 Ardee St & 21 Jervis St (pawnbroker)

I see a couple of mentions for a John Andrews who was an ivory turner - probably not the same man as that would have been a skilled trade, rather than something on the side of a pawnbroking business.

Slaters 1894 4 Ardee St, 58 Bride St, 159 Church St & 21 Jervis St (pawnbroker)

At this stage, I have to wonder how realistic it is that a man fathering a child in the late 1830s/early 1840s would still be alive in 1894. Though with 4 entries, that's quite a big business.

I've seen examples (in Thoms) of a name in a directory being listed long after the person was dead, presumably because no one told the directory people he died.

littlealison

Shane, he may not have been a pawnbroker then, of course.

Pinky, I went back to my family tree and there are four John Andrews.
- the one I am after, John born 1820ish: his son John born 1848: his grandson born 1881: and another grandson John Robert, born to Frederick in 1869.

I've been on the Freeman's Journal again and find that in 1877 John Andrews is in Ardee St, and in 1899 there is Mrs Andrews. Advertising sales of unclaimed goods. I think he died in between, but no death notice.

Back to the census of 1901. I've now been able to sort out the two Andrews households of pawnbrokers there:
In Victoria Terrace, Clontarf East, are Miss Adelaide Andrews and her nephew William (Liam) Andrews - that's Fred's sister. And she is selling jewelry from Jervis St. (Advert in the Freeman's Journal).
In South Circular Road (Merchants Quay), are Anne Andrews, Mrs Andrews, and her son John born 1881...

Whoops. Hang on a minute, her husband is Fred's brother.
Anne's husband was the John born 1848.

Shane, I think the Ardee St records will start in the 1860s when this John is old enough! And this John would likely have been alive. Sounds like the business was all in the family.

Which gets no further with Fred's father. Bother. He was a pawnbroker, according to Fred's marriage record. but he could even have been in the north of Ireland where the name Andrews is much more common...

I think my head is going round, but thanks to you both for pushing me on a bit - Alison.

shanew

No sign of John Andrews at Ardee street in 1868 - it's still listed as the engineer at that stage.

There is a change of business by 1872 that might be of interest..

4 Ardee Street
Patrick Cummins, pawnbroker

there is one pawnbroker with the surname Andrews in the trades index of 1872 that looks promising :

John Andrews, pawnbroker, Bray

I haven't found the listing for him in Bray yet...

Maybe your John moved to Dublin at some stage either to work for Patrick, or to take over the business ?


Shane

littlealison

from the Freeman's Journal:

I've found Patrick Cummins, pawnbroker, in Bray in 1879 (Usher's Island) and 1895 (10 Moore St)...not in Ardee St, though. But it looks as though the address became a pawnbrokers then...

I haven't found a John Andrews in Bray, but I have found a Robert Andrews, pawnbroker, in 1880 - and a Mr Andrews in 1873. (Pity neither of then can be John Robert b 1869!)

Awaiting another sighting of John Andrews, pawnbroker, Bray! - Alison

PS: I searched all the other papers for an early sight of John Andrews, pawnbroker........no luck.

littlealison

I feel I have a bit more information....but it's still a brick wall. I refuse to call it a dead end yet.

Searching for John Andrews Snr, I keep being directed towards County Down - whether he came from there or there are just more Andrews there, I don't know....any ideas?

I wonder if any family history societies in Ireland could put me onto anyone researching the family and having family info?

Finding distant cousins is one way I have followed those who emigrated or stayed - and last week I met Linda from South Africa, visiting here! So far I've corresponded with at least 6 people and each one has contributed to family knowledge....I am so grateful.
Frederick and Anne are the only greatgrandparents who I do not have a photograph of, now.

Thank you both for what you have found. Every little may help - Alison.

PS - I'll be back!

littlealison

Of course it's only now that it's occurred to me that if I give the names of John Andrews' children, someone might know who, when and where their father was ....duh.



Children of John Andrews - so far as I know:



Adelaide 1840 ....Pawnbroker
Arthur ?1841 ....Tea and Spirit Merchant
Frederick 1838-42 ....My Gran Little’s father, Master Painter
Nathaniel 1838 - 1843 ....Went to Vermont, Bookkeeper
John 1848 ....Pawnbroker
Eva 1851 or 1856 ....Professor of Music


Frederick's nephew, Arthur's son, was the piper Liam Andrews. He played to Frederick when he was on his deathbed.



WATSON Occurrences:
Nathaniel Watson Andrews – John’s son
Wellington Watson Andrews – grandson


Does anyone know about any of these people? - Alison

littlealison

Back again. Since yesterday I now have a little more info, via Vermont history and Ancestry:



"Nathaniel W Andrews, son of John and Marion ( Watson ) Andrews, was born in the city of Dublin, Ireland, May 25,1838, he came to Perkinsville, VT in 1856 and in 1858 moved to Springfield and began work in the office of Ellis, Britton & Eaton, manufacturers of children's carriages and toys."



So John Andrews' wife was Marian Watson. I've found a probable birth for her in 1816 - 'Mariana' in their Latin versions in the Irish genealogy site.


Still no further with John Andrews' date or place of birth. However, I've done an exhaustive search of Dublin directories , Griffiths Valuation and a list of Irish pawnbrokers....only to find that he doesn't appear anywhere as a pawnbroker.......so I guess if he was, he wasn't a proprietor....not a lot of help!


No marriage date for him found, no children in the records. No death in Dublin. Did he too go to Vermont?

Still searching. Help!

shanew

Not sure how this fit's in - conflicts with your timeline, and probably going in the opposite direction to your dates of interest, but there seems to be a marriage in Dublin for that Nathaniel :

1863 Marriage of Nathaniel Watson Andrews : http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/32ce9d0575231
Nathaniel's occupation is painter, his father John is a pawn broker.

a couple of other Andrews/Watson records - but nothing else that looks linked, but since your Andrews were CofI the baptism records will not include mother's maiden name - http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name2=andrews&namefm=&namel=watso*&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=&submit=Search&sort=&pageSize=100&diocese=&parish=&century=&decade=&exact=&ddB=&ddM=&ddD=&mmB=&mmM=&mmD=&yyB=&yyM=&yyD=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&member0=&member1=&member2=&member3=&member4=&member5=&member6=&member7=&member8=&member9=&namef0=&namef1=&namef2=&namef3=&namef4=&namef5=&namef6=&namef7=&namef8=&namef9=&namel0=&namel1=&namel2=&namel3=&namel4=&namel5=&namel6=&namel7=&namel8=&namel9=&keyword=



Shane

littlealison

Hi, Shane.
Yes it is in the opposite direction! I have the marriage, can't prove the 'pawnbroker', anywhere.
Wellington Watson Andrews was Nathaniel's nephew - who oddly headed for Vermont in 1910, when his uncle had left there....and died in Dublin that autumn at 26. I'm thinking of sending for his death cert, find out why.

But you gave me a headsup on Marian - I checked back to that birth and this Marian is RC. Unexpected - but possible.

shanew

The 'problem' with that marriage is that the address for Nathaniel at the time of marriage (I think it's 37 not 39 as transcribed) doesn't doesn't seem to be a pawnbroker in the 1860s - which would suggest that maybe that John worked elsewhere, or was possibly deceased by 1863.

Did your Nathaniel come back to Dublin to marry ?
Your post mentioned that he was in the US in 1856/8..


Shane

littlealison

I certainly can't find him after the birth of Eva - 1851 or 1856 according to which 20C census you look at.
I found a nationalisation application for a John Andrews in Vermont, but don't know if it's him. I did follow one JA that wasn't.

Nat's marriage - yes, sorry, should have included this. The extract goes on to say:
"He has continued in the office of this company through all its changes, except for two years 1862 and 1863 when he was in Ireland. He is now (1895) the bookkeeper of the Vermont Novelty Works Company, and stockholder in the company. he m: in Dublin, July 6,1863 Cathleen M Payne who was B: in Tralee, county of Kerry, Ireland."



I have asked the Ancestry responder to see if there is any more - including possibly about John.

shanew

wonder where they got the parents and detailed date of birth for him ?... there's no sign that I see of an Andrews baptism on IrishGenealogy with that date...


S.

littlealison

Presumably from Nathaniel! - still alive in 1895, when the Vermont history was written.
I did find 'May 1838' on his Vermont Census for 1900.

But there are no births or baptisms recorded that I can find for any of John's children. The dates for the others are pretty uncertain.
Some were in the Irish censuses.
My info is from my grandmother Andrews - notes taken by my sister in the 1960s..........and so far they have been pretty accurate.

shanew

pity the place of birth isn't a bit more detailed - i.e. parish, or part of the city or county...

p.s. had a quick look at RootIreland also - nothing promising on the index there for Nathaniel's baptism either


S.

littlealison

I made a list of recorded origins of John's children, and it went like this:
(Mostly from censuses...from memory as I can't find it!!)

Adelaide 1840 b IRE ....Pawnbroker
Arthur ?1841 b County Dublin ....Tea and Spirit Merchant
Frederick 1838-42 b Dublin ....My Gran’s father, Master Painter
Nathaniel 1838 (? 42) b Dublin ....Went to Vermont, Bookkeeper
John 1848 b County Dublin ....Pawnbroker
Eva 1851 (or 1856) b IRE ....Professor of Music

As you can see I didn't even know Nat was the first child then. I guess that's why he got the Watson in his name.
The others all seem to have stayed in Dublin.

A lot of the family seem to have had connections with St Peter's parish, and there are no births/baptisms recorded there for the 1840s.

shanew

littlealison wrote: »

....

A lot of the family seem to have had connections with St Peter's parish, and there are no births/baptisms recorded there for the 1840s.

There are several Andrews baptisms records in St. Peters during the 1840s - but none with father John - see : http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=&namel=andrews&exact=&name2=&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=&diocese=DUBLIN%20%28COI%29&parish=ST.%20PETER&century=1800&decade=1840&type=B&sort=date&pageSize=100&ddB=&ddM=&ddD=&mmB=&mmM=&mmD=&yyB=&yyM=&yyD=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&keyword=&member0=&member1=&member2=&member3=&member4=&member5=&member6=&member7=&member8=&member9=&namef0=&namef1=&namef2=&namef3=&namef4=&namef5=&namef6=&namef7=&namef8=&namef9=&namel0=&namel1=&namel2=&namel3=&namel4=&namel5=&namel6=&namel7=&namel8=&namel9=&submit=Search

St. Peter's did include a part of what was then Co. Dublin, but in light of the places of birth mentioned for Arthur and John I'm wondering if you might need to widen the search out from the city and in to the county..



Shane

littlealison

I think my search must have been for John Andrews children specifically.
I looked just now in the RC records but no known names.

I don't know quite where to go from here........but I have to go out and post stuff at the PO! I'll be back sometime. Thanks Shane.

Jellybaby1

Don't suppose the family were Jewish originally? I only throw this in because I knew an elderly man once who I was surprised to find out when he died that he had been Jewish. Just a thought.

littlealison

I don't think he was Jewish....this is because he was a pawnbroker?

I fell it would be known in the family if he had been.....but you never know. We have had some Plymouth Brethren later on - that was known - and Eva joined them.

Is there any place (I've been looking) that Jewish Irish births were recorded?

Jellybaby1

littlealison wrote: »

I don't think he was Jewish....this is because he was a pawnbroker?

I fell it would be known in the family if he had been.....but you never know. We have had some Plymouth Brethren later on - that was known - and Eva joined them.

Is there any place (I've been looking) that Jewish Irish births were recorded?

Well, possibly, but at the time of his birth there were pogroms in Europe and Russia and any surviving Jewish families would have been scattered. This link was in a Sticky here, http://www.jewishireland.org/genealogy.html. Or contact a Synagogue.

Keep in mind I'm not a genealogist or historian just an interested individual so I'm not really your best source. Someone else might add another link for Jewish records for you or contradict me.

littlealison

Jellybaby1 - this link doesn't work any more (Moderator please note) - but I had found the site and an address, and will ask for redirection, if necessary, for a letter. I feel it is worth finding out. I am puzzled that there are no records that I can find. - Alison

pinkypinky

littlealison wrote: »

Jellybaby1 - this link doesn't work any more (Moderator please note) - but I had found the site and an address, and will ask for redirection, if necessary, for a letter. I feel it is worth finding out. I am puzzled that there are no records that I can find. - Alison

Link is working fine this am.

littlealison

I mean the email link on their site - sorry. That's why I will write.

shanew

the email link is set up incorrectly (has protocol set as http:// instead of mailto: ) - dont click on it, try copying and pasting the address to your email app.


Shane

littlealison

Ah, thanks. Will try again. - Alison

littlealison

(Continued from last year!)...
I did email the Jewish site but have had no reply.

I have now found two possible records for John Andrews
1) on http://www.findmypast.ie “Marriage: JOHN ANDREWS 1834 DUBLIN N/A”
‘Deputy Keeper of Ireland, Index to the Act or Grant Books, and to Original Wills, of the Diocese of Dublin 1272-1858 (26th, 30th and 31st Reports, 1894, 1899)’

I copied this to a file of mine last year and I can’t find it online again. I'm not a member of fmp.ie, can't get details - can anyone confirm this? Or give any more details?


2) On comparing records from Dublin Directories:

1851: ‘Jno Andrews 16 Leinster St, St Anne’s, South’
…..same address as Mary Anne Andrews in 1850 – and 1842 - could she be Marion?
If married in 1834…..but not living together sometimes, or having separate workplaces….??
...........................Or am I completely confused? - Alison.

littlealison

Yes I was, and I still am!

pinkypinky

I just had a look on FMP and can't see that record. It looks like the record of a marriage banns and there won't be anything else - destroyed in Four Courts.

littlealison

Thanks for looking, pinkypinky. It is at least possible.
And these records together do make sense with what I had already.

If so, he was in Dublin and old enough to marry in 1834....was that 21 at the time? Or younger?

pinkypinky

I believe you could marry at 16 with parental consent - 21 is the age of majority but you could marry before it no problem

littlealison

I have no birth date -
But....if he was over 21 he was born before 1813, if over 16 he was born before 1818.
(- and I probably won't find any record.)

Ah well, this is maybe as far as I can get, unless some new records turn up....
thanks though.

littlealison

I have recently found PROBATE records on FamilySearch!
(Ireland, Calendar of Wills and Administrations, 1858-1920)

- records of both John Andrews with address and executor!
So I started on a search of the 'Freeman's Journal' where I knew there were many pawnbrokers' adverts. And have managed to disentangle the two. Quite a slog.
Father died in 1893, aged 83, son in 1894.

The elder John had one shop at 21 Jervis Street.
The younger had three establishments at Ardee Street, Bride Street and Church Street.
The ads start about 1871. In 1872, the older John sold a house in Bray.
(There's one ad that says 'Jervis St and Bray'.)

He says in the marriage records in 1863 that he is a pawnbroker at the time....but in the same year there is an article in the 'Freemans' Journal' giving a list of pawnbroker's assistants and the name John Andrews is in there.
I suspect that he wasn't a pawnbroker in his own right until 1871 or so....on the other hand this might be his son and he was in Bray.
All his children were born in Dublin or county Dublin, though.

Anyway I know a lot more than I did...about the last 30 years of his life.
Still don't know where he came from!

Hermy

You can also check the Calender of Wills here.

littlealison

Thanks Hermy. I will keep that as it seems a quick way to check a name.
But, on the Familysearch version you can see the original and it gives the address - which has been very important in this bit of research!

Hermy

Oh better again - I didn't realise that!

Just checked and it's the same image as NAI.
Either way I'm glad you made a new inroad into your research.
It's great when you get a breakthrough.:)

littlealison

Didn't find images there, but it's fine.....I went back and found three Arthur Andrewses as well, all of whom I can identify.

littlealison

This might be of interest to someone.
It is the marriage database form more unusual sources by the Irish Genealogical Research Society.

http://www.irishancestors.ie/?page_id=1926

AND - I have just found John Andrews' marriage in 1828 on it.
John Andrews = Mary Anne Watson (or Marian, but same difference) !

littlealison

Hello all. Been away for a while, but after some correspondence with an Andrews relative in the US, I am checking all my Andrews records again. particularly Frederick Andrews' and his brother Arthur's children. Found two records on www.irishgenealogy.ie where the baby was baptised before it was born....I must tell them!
About John Andrews' children, I am thinking that if you have a clandestine marriage - possibly mixed religions - how do you record the births of your children? As Schulze died in 1839, and you're not attached to any church that would recognise your marriage......  I think John and Marian didn't.                                                                                              

Only Nathaniel has a birth date, and that info came from Vermont.

See https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/retrieve_text.php?text_contentid=18 . I can find no trace online of the 55 baptisms mentioned here.  Anyone know if they are available?

pinkypinky

What makes you think it's clandestine? Inter-denominational marriages were far more common than people realise. Most churches recognised marriages in other Christian churches.
Schulze was just one of the known couple-beggars of the period. Afaik, the Schulze marriages/baptisms are not included in the records on irishgenealogy.ie but you can certainly ask the GRO in Roscommon to search them. There's also a printed book of the records and the marriage records are included in the IGRS's Early marriage index.

littlealison

'Clandestine' seems the usual description for these marriages. But I have the marriage.

My point was, why no birth records for any of the six known children of John Andrews
and Marian Watson ?
I postulated a reason. Can you give me another?

littlealison

Yes, I suppose all the records could have been lost. (Nathaniel Andrews seemed very sure of his birth date though!)   And Schulze's marriages were not declared legally sound until a court challenge in the 1870s.

In case anyone wants to have a look, these dates are from other records:
Adelaide (?1841)
Arthur (?1841)
Frederick (?1842),
Nathaniel ( now known May 5th 1838, from Vermont history book)
John ?1848.
[font=Times New Roman","serif]Eva (1851 or 1856, censuses differ….).[/font]

pedroeibar1

littlealison wrote: »

Hello all. Been away for a while, but after some correspondence with an Andrews relative in the US, I am checking all my Andrews records again. particularly Frederick Andrews' and his brother Arthur's children. Found two records on www.irishgenealogy.ie where the baby was baptised before it was born....I must tell them!
About John Andrews' children, I am thinking that if you have a clandestine marriage - possibly mixed religions - how do you record the births of your children? .......?

Something very odd in this thread. For starters, in the RC and CoI Churches baptism is a sacrament – it requires the pouring of water on the person to be baptised. That cannot be done on a child in the womb. So baptism cannot happen pre-birth..

What exactly do you mean by a clandestine marriage? Are you confusing this with an irregular marriage? Or with a mixed marriage, which, as correctly noted by Pinky in the post above, were quite frequent. Furthermore, marriage and baptism are not related. If a baptism took place it would be recorded in a church register (pre 1864). If the parents were not married the child would be classified as ‘Illegitimate’ if the father’s name-was unknown (or he did not acknowledge the child) and the space for the father’s name would be left blank. If the parents were unmarried and living together it would be ‘son / dau. of Joe Smith & Jane Bloggs (unmarried)’. But a baptism would/could take place. Provided of course that the parents wanted the child to be baptised, which they probably would if they had earlier bothered with banns.

Earlier you mention Banns being read, so you need to research the Marriage Acts, marital ages and parental consent for marriages in Ireland.

As for ‘data’ coming from the US. I’d also add (no offence to anyone) that all but one of the daftest genealogical notions/stories/claims I’ve encountered have been from the US. Too many times I’ve found leaps of faith to connect a ‘John Smith son of Joseph of Dublin’ simply linked to a Joseph Smith of Dublin who conveniently happens to be around at the appropriate date and nothing more. For that reason I look at ALL information emanating from the US as a clue until I prove it myself.

littlealison

I think you are really complicating things here. what I said about baptism before birth was a joke - there has obviously been a mistranscription in one or other! Which should be corrected. (Oh - I may have caused confusion here as this was a reference to other records than this particular family.)

I needed to check my records as they occasionally did not agree with my relatives'....and I do have some agreement that their assumptions are sometimes hasty.
I have not mentioned banns (not in these recent posts), that must have been someone else.

I repeat, I have found the record of the marriage of John Andrews and Marian Watson. whether you want to call it mixed or irregular or whatever. I can find no records of the births OR baptisms of their six children I know existed.  That's my problem.

pedroeibar1

littlealison wrote: »

I think you are really complicating things here. what I said about baptism before birth was a joke - there has obviously been a mistranscription in one or other! Which should be corrected. (Oh - I may have caused confusion here as this was a reference to other records than this particular family.)

I needed to check my records as they occasionally did not agree with my relatives'....and I do have some agreement that their assumptions are sometimes hasty.
I have not mentioned banns (not in these recent posts), that must have been someone else.

I repeat, I have found the record of the marriage of John Andrews and Marian Watson. whether you want to call it mixed or irregular or whatever. I can find no records of the births OR baptisms of their six children I know existed. That's my problem.

Genealogy can be complicated, I always try to simplify it.;)
Your pre-birth baptism comment might have been intended as a joke, but I read it at face value. That baptism might also be an indication of another child/family of the same name, or– with an appropriate time gap - in the correct family, the records of an infant death and the subsequent child being given the same name (very common).

John Andrews and Mary/ Watson married in 1828. Even allowing a 20 year span for childbirths, that still means the births would predate the civil system by about 20 years. So there are now and never were official records of their births. It also means that you are in a period where baptism records can be sparse – I have several people who were baptised 1830's & 40's but the apposite parish registers simply do not exist.

It becomes highly innaccurate, confusing and complicated when working forward rather than working backward – if for example a John Smith born 1750 had three sons, one would be called John (third son named after father), and their first-born sons would most likely be called John due to the naming patterns prevailing in the era (named after the grandfather). That means possibly three cousins named John, so a genealogist would never assume one of the correct era/family group to be the ‘correct’ John. Add to that the usual pattern of given-name / surname frequency. For example Cornelius frequently is associated with O’Callaghan, Hugh with O’Neill and O’Donnell, etc. John is among the most common forenames, so there is a much higher probability of several John Andrews being unrelated.

You can only trawl the newspapers in the hope that the family was important enough for a birth or two to be recorded ('The lady of John Andrews - a son'). Anything else would be shooting in the dark.

FWIW – Weirs, the posh jewellery store in Dublin's Grafton St. is AFAIK still controlled by the Andrews family but I know nothing about their genealogy.