Showers in School

Iomib

My daughters school ( and i would guess most other schools) have only a big open shower room with no privacy so nobody in her class has ever taken a shower after pe. The school has banned spray deodorant this year so we got a letter telling us to tell our kids to consider taking a shower after pe.

Wolfe Tone

Roll on?

mikemac

Why ban deodorant?

Were the kids messing with the cans and a lighter?

RubyGirl

Packet of baby wipes, I would'nt blame them for not using communial shower's. There wont be enough time anyway I'd say.

January

Packet of wipes and a roll on deodorant should do her fine... especially if there's hardly any time to shower before the next class.

Moonbeam

I would shower in a swim suit!

Some people have really bad allergies to spray deodorants, especially asthmatics.

Iomib

Yes Asthma was the reason given for the banning of the spray cans. Putting on a swimsuit just to take a shower would be a bit too much trouble. My daughter says she and everybody else hates roll on.

Moonbeam

Deodorant wipes then or a non aerosol spray.

Giruilla

Thats absolutely scandalous! You should demand to see scientific proof from them that aerosol is harmful to asthma. They won't have it by the way...

Joey the lips

Giruilla wrote: »

Thats absolutely scandalous! You should demand to see scientific proof from them that aerosol is harmful to asthma. They won't have it by the way...

Trust me it is. Scientific proof is not necessary. I take it you dont know anyone with asthma?

If you speak to most asthmatics they use roll on's for 2 reasons

1. The allergy aspect

2. The skin aspect. The spray causes there skin to badly rash.


Believe it or not. Most baby wipes have the same effect too. Thats why most asthmatics use water wipes on there own kids.

LadyMayBelle

A lot of asthmatics don't need to use roll on etc, my fella has bad asthma and spray deos don't affect himat all..however if one kid in the whole school has a reaction to an ingrediant in sprays, then the school has a duty to elimate that risk.

I work in a school, and there are quite a lot of asthmatics, but sprays aren't issues for them, more so stuff like envirnommetal factors, stress, horse/animal hair etc. If someone was to come into the room and spray a deo, or an airfreshner, it's an irritant, to everyone not just asthmatics..

I imagine there is one specific child or even a handful who have reactions to a particle and the school has to provide for them. I would like to see some recent evidence on it, a quick peek on asthma.org mentions nothing... there appears to be nothing concrete out there *that I can find in a quick search online*

Giruilla

Joey the lips wrote: »

Trust me it is. Scientific proof is not necessary. I take it you dont know anyone with asthma?

If you speak to most asthmatics they use roll on's for 2 reasons

1. The allergy aspect

2. The skin aspect. The spray causes there skin to badly rash.

I've had asthma since I was born. I've never found any adverse affects to using spray, or being around other people while they were using spray. Sorry, but I can't trust you or anyone on it... I'd need to see scientific proof. One of the biggest problems in modern society is allowing people to create and enforce rules based on speculation.

I've become highly convinced that the main cause of asthma is due to the intake of too much oxegen into the lungs which leads to low levels of CO2 in the blood. This leads the body to automatically contract the airwaves, in the hope to stop more oxgen coming in, but has the adverse affect of panicking the person and trying to breath even harder.
If aerosol is causing the childrens asthma to worsen, I'd imagine it is due to a placebo affect of sorts... they already imagining that the aerosol will worsen their asthma thus raising their stress level.
If aerosol doesnt affect non-asthmatics, I see no reason why it should affect asthmatics.

munchkin_utd

id say its an excuse to ban it in case of substance abuse or what was prevalent when I was in school, use as a fire thrower when you light the spray with a lighter!!!!

And why cant kids just wait till they are home to wash?
Ireland is not a hot country (to understate it a bit!) so after a sedate PE session the kids wouldn't be that sweaty at all to be honest.

Joey the lips

Giruilla wrote: »

I've become highly convinced that the main cause of asthma is due to the intake of too much oxegen into the lungs which leads to low levels of CO2 in the blood. This leads the body to automatically contract the airwaves, in the hope to stop more oxgen coming in, but has the adverse affect of panicking the person and trying to breath even harder.

Interesting. Have you spoken to any professionals about this? It borders on the crazy side.

If you truly understand asthma then you know the effects of oxygen.

With the greatest respect, I dont want to get into voodoo medicine here and i said what i need to aerosols do have an effect on asthma.

Hannibal Smith

Giruilla wrote: »

I've had asthma since I was born. I've never found any adverse affects to using spray, or being around other people while they were using spray. Sorry, but I can't trust you or anyone on it... I'd need to see scientific proof. One of the biggest problems in modern society is allowing people to create and enforce rules based on speculation.

I've become highly convinced that the main cause of asthma is due to the intake of too much oxegen into the lungs which leads to low levels of CO2 in the blood. This leads the body to automatically contract the airwaves, in the hope to stop more oxgen coming in, but has the adverse affect of panicking the person and trying to breath even harder.
If aerosol is causing the childrens asthma to worsen, I'd imagine it is due to a placebo affect of sorts... they already imagining that the aerosol will worsen their asthma thus raising their stress level.
If aerosol doesnt affect non-asthmatics, I see no reason why it should affect asthmatics.

My hubby has asthma and he has a problem with sprays. Not deoderant thought, with spray polishes and the like. But I guess all asthmatics have different triggers.

OP, our school banned deoderant when we were students (about 20 years ago), so it doesn't come as a surprise...we didn't have showering facilities either, I couldn't imagine you'd have time before the next class?

Giruilla

Joey the lips wrote: »

Interesting. Have you spoken to any professionals about this? It borders on the crazy side.

If you truly understand asthma then you know the effects of oxygen.

With the greatest respect, I dont want to get into voodoo medicine here and i said what i need to aerosols do have an effect on asthma.

Nobody truly understands asthma, if they did there would be a cure for it.
There is no proof to say that aerosols have an effect on asthma. There have been cases where asthmatics breathing in the presense of aerosol worsen, but guess what,
there have also been countless cases of asthmatics breathing in the presense of AIR worsen!!

Asthma is as much a psychological problem as it is a physical one.

Truley

Asthma aside I always hated when girls in my class would bring in sprays. They would spray it everywhere, at each other, in people's eyes etc. It has a very strong, invasive smell even to a non asthmatic. I can imagine why teachers wouldn't want it. I can't understand the aversion to roll-ons, especially something natural like this

nicowa

Truley wrote: »

Asthma aside I always hated when girls in my class would bring in sprays. They would spray it everywhere, at each other, in people's eyes etc. It has a very strong, invasive smell even to a non asthmatic. I can imagine why teachers wouldn't want it. I can't understand the aversion to roll-ons, especially something natural like this

I was going to respond with this too. I remember changing after pe and used to find it really difficult with all the sprays from deodrant to the frangrant body sprays (which are a fragrance thing only, not a sweat/perspiration thing). And I'd say I'd find it as bad if I wasn't asthmatic.

Moonbeam

Giruilla wrote: »

Thats absolutely scandalous! You should demand to see scientific proof from them that aerosol is harmful to asthma. They won't have it by the way...

I developed an allergy to aerosols when I was about 12 and grew out of it in my 20's, I went from having rare asthma attacks to regular ones as a result.
I also went to boarding school which didn't help.

Joey the lips

Giruilla wrote: »

Asthma is as much a psychological problem as it is a physical one.

Have you proof. You are seriously delusional. Considering babies born who develop asthma quite quickly would not understand this.

With respect i am not doing this any more. It borders on absurd.

Giruilla

Joey the lips wrote: »

Have you proof. You are seriously delusional. Considering babies born who develop asthma quite quickly would not understand this.

With respect i am not doing this any more. It borders on absurd.

What do you want proof for? I'm not trying to enforce a rule in a school. People who enforce idiotic rules in schools like 'banning deoderant because it affects asthmatics' are the ones who should be providing proof.

It's delusional to think you have a right to force obligations and rules on other people which are based purely on speculation and circumstantial evidence.

I see no reason why you think my argument is delusional or absurd.

Stench Blossoms

mikemac wrote: »

Why ban deodorant?

Were the kids messing with the cans and a lighter?

That's why they were banned when I went to school.

Baby wipes and a roll on are the answer here.

There were girls in my school that said they didn't like them....so they got called smelly.

CrazyRabbit

Giruilla, are you trolling? Because it's the only reasonable conclusion when reading your past few posts.

Asthma or not, these sprays can be quite overwhelming. There are plenty of effective alternatives to body sprays, so why take the risk of possibly triggering an asthma attack in a child by allowing these sprays?

Body sprays are fine in the privacy of your own home. But 20-30 kids in an enclosed room all spraying them is just madness. The kids might as well just start 'sniffing' the cans.

hardCopy

Sprays were banned when I was in Irish college, due to a few lads getting whacked off the solvent fumes, they may be using asthma as a cover rather than putting ideas in the kids heads..

Giruilla

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Giruilla, are you trolling? Because it's the only reasonable conclusion when reading your past few posts.

Suprise suprise, was wondering when someone was going to throw that word out. As seems to always happen when people have an opinion that isn't the consensus on boards. Want to explain how its the only reasonable conclusion?

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Asthma or not, these sprays can be quite overwhelming.

My argument is completely centred on using asthma as an excuse to ban sprays. There are plenty of other valid reasons to ban sprays in schools so why not just use them. eg. school saying they fear danger of children spraying deodorant into other pupils eyes, and they also feel they don't have control to stop them.

ash23

my brother isn't asthmatic but he is seriously allergic to any sort of fragrances. Air fresheners, scented candles and especially perfumes and deoderants.

We were never allowed aerosols in school because people either were lighting them or sniffing them.
Baby wipes and deo wipes or a natural deoderant should do the trick. Freshen then up without affecting other students.

darklighter

Giruilla wrote: »

Nobody truly understands asthma, if they did there would be a cure for it.
There is no proof to say that aerosols have an effect on asthma. There have been cases where asthmatics breathing in the presense of aerosol worsen, but guess what,
there have also been countless cases of asthmatics breathing in the presense of AIR worsen!!

Asthma is as much a psychological problem as it is a physical one.

You were already asked for proof of the statement in bold above and couldnt provide it.

Please do not insult people who deal with this debilitating disease with tripe like this.

Giruilla wrote: »

Suprise suprise, was wondering when someone was going to throw that word out. As seems to always happen when people have an opinion that isn't the consensus on boards. Want to explain how its the only reasonable conclusion?



My argument is completely centred on using asthma as an excuse to ban sprays. There are plenty of other valid reasons to ban sprays in schools so why not just use them. eg. school saying they fear danger of children spraying deodorant into other pupils eyes, and they also feel they don't have control to stop them.

And why cant the school use it as an excuse?

If a student has had a reaction to a deodorant and there is no information given that this isnt the reason, then why shouldnt it be banned?

Giruilla

darklighter wrote: »

You were already asked for proof of the statement in bold above and couldnt provide it.

I already answered that. I've no need to provide proof as I'm not the one trying to bring a rule in. If you make a claim which forms the basis of a rule or law, then you should need to provide proof.

darklighter wrote: »

Please do not insult people who deal with this debilitating disease with tripe like this.

I have asthma.

darklighter wrote: »

If a student has had a reaction to a deodorant and there is no information given that this isnt the reason, then why shouldnt it be banned?

Because there is no direct evidence to support either view, but circumstantial evidence to support both views. So why should one view win over the other? This is giving power to fear and speculation rather than proof.

darklighter

Giruilla wrote: »

I already answered that. I've no need to provide proof as I'm not the one trying to bring a rule in. If you make a claim which forms the basis of a rule or law, then you should need to provide proof.


I have asthma.



Because there is no direct evidence to support either view, but circumstantial evidence to support both views. So why should one view win over the other? This is giving power to fear and speculation rather than proof.

Asthma is as much a psychological problem as it is a physical one.

YOU made the above statement of fact. If you cant back up your utterances, dont post them.

I also have asthma and have had since I was a baby. I find it deeply offensive that you are insinuating that asthma sufferers have a psychological problem. Do other disease sufferers also have psychological problems?

Are you saying that if a student has had a reaction to a deodorant, that this isnt enough DIRECT evidence for them to be banned?

nkay1985

When I was in school (finished 8 years ago), the changing rooms got done up and went from having cubicle showers (no door or anything but three walls) to an open shower area just off the dressing room. The rule with both the old and new shower facilities was that everybody had to have a shower for hygiene reasons. PE class had to finish early enough so that there was time for this.

Is this the case anywhere anymore or are children allowed to decide whether they shower or not? Obviously deodorant will only serve to cover up any body odour.

I think the school are right to ban spray deodorant if it has affected anybody at all. I am ok with deodorant but polishes and other sprays cause my asthma to flare up.

RustyNut

Schools put all sorts of rules in place for all sorts of reasons. If you don't like them find a school where the rules are suitable for you. Mountain and molehill are the words that come to mind here.

Giruilla

darklighter wrote: »

YOU made the above statement of fact.

Where did I say it was a fact? It's a widely held theory.

darklighter wrote: »

I find it deeply offensive that you are insinuating that asthma sufferers have a psychological problem.

It wasn't my intention to offend you and I apologise that I did. You may be interpreting 'psychological problem' as some sort of mental disorder, however I meant it in the sense that I believe asthma can be cured by natural methods without medication.

darklighter wrote: »

Do other disease sufferers also have psychological problems?

Thats far too general a question, so the only way I can answer that is , sometimes yes and sometimes no.

darklighter wrote: »

Are you saying that if a student has had a reaction to a deodorant, that this isnt enough DIRECT evidence for them to be banned?

If it can be proven that the deodorant was the direct reason, then yes it should be banned.

darklighter

Giruilla wrote: »

Where did I say it was a fact? It's a widely held theory.
It wasn't my intention to offend you and I apologise that I did. You may be interpreting 'psychological problem' as some sort of mental disorder, however I meant it in the sense that I believe asthma can be cured by natural methods without medication.
Thats far too general a question, so the only way I can answer that is , sometimes yes and sometimes no.
If it can be proven that the deodorant was the direct reason, then yes it should be banned.

Read the sentance again. Use of IS indicates that that what you are stating is a fact and has been proved conclusively.

As for widely-held, its not a theory i've ever heard before. And as Ireland has one of the highest, if not the highest, rates of Asthma afflication in the world, i'd be pretty sure I would have heard if it was widely held.

I dont no how you expect anyone to associate "psychological problem" with anything other than that they have a mental problem contributing to their illness. I'm sure you didnt mean any offense but that is how it reads.

I wont make a comment on your belief that natural methods have an impact as I havent tried any. But if you have any tips that work for you, i'd love to hear them. Anything is worth a shot I find that the more exercise I get, the less my asthma affects me.

Giruilla

darklighter wrote: »

As for widely-held, its not a theory i've ever heard before. And as Ireland has one of the highest, if not the highest, rates of Asthma afflication in the world, i'd be pretty sure I would have heard if it was widely held.

Have you ever had it where you could go days without using using your inhaler, yet one day you will go to work/school, realise you forgot your inhaler and then your asthma comes on worse than ever? This is a prime example of asthma being a psychologically induced problem.
People have a stereotype of hearing the word psychological, and immediately thinking of a mental disorder.

darklighter wrote: »

n your belief that natural methods have an impact as I havent tried any. But if you have any tips that work for you, i'd love to hear them. Anything is worth a shot I find that the more exercise I get, the less my asthma affects me.

I completely find that too! My tip would be paying attention to how breath in different situations. Do you breath through your mouth a lot?

My main point was I object to schools making rules of this sort without evidence (or at least debate).

RustyNut

If the biggest problem someone has on their journey through school is having to use roll on rather than spray on deodorant well thats an easy journey.

Maybe pick a worthwhile issue to get worked up about. Aerosols affect some people negatively roll ons don't move on...

January

I reckon a student had a reaction to the spray deodorant (whether it be an asthma attack or an allergic reaction) so they decided to ban them, kind of like when a student has a nut/egg etc allergy, it's easier to just ban the product than try and isolate the student from it.

*Mod Note* If anyone suspects anyone of being a troll, then please report the post rather than call them out on thread about it, it can cause arguments and that's not the sort of debate we want here. Let's try and keep it all on topic.

CrazyRabbit

January wrote: »

I reckon a student had a reaction to the spray deodorant (whether it be an asthma attack or an allergic reaction) so they decided to ban them, kind of like when a student has a nut/egg etc allergy, it's easier to just ban the product than try and isolate the student from it.

*Mod Note* If anyone suspects anyone of being a troll, then please report the post rather than call them out on thread about it, it can cause arguments and that's not the sort of debate we want here. Let's try and keep it all on topic.

Apologies, but I did not call the other poster a troll. I merely asked them if they were trolling. If I was sure, I would have used the report button.

Making unsubstantiated claims which are likely to piss off a large number of readers and evoke emotive responses is typical behaviour of trolls and I was just curious.

Giruilla

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Making unsubstantiated claims which are likely to piss off a large number of readers and evoke emotive responses is typical behaviour of trolls and I was just curious.

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Giruilla, are you trolling? Because it's the only reasonable conclusion when reading your past few posts.

Seeing as you haven't substantiated the above claim, I'd call that an unsubstantiated claim.
CrazyRabbit, are you trolling? Just curious.

Banning aerosol from school changing rooms on the basis it provokes asthma, is unsubstantiated in my opinion.

Orion

That's quite enough from both of you. Next similar comment earns an infraction.

Back on topic please

darklighter

Giruilla wrote: »

Have you ever had it where you could go days without using using your inhaler, yet one day you will go to work/school, realise you forgot your inhaler and then your asthma comes on worse than ever? This is a prime example of asthma being a psychologically induced problem.
People have a stereotype of hearing the word psychological, and immediately thinking of a mental disorder.

I completely find that too! My tip would be paying attention to how breath in different situations. Do you breath through your mouth a lot?

My main point was I object to schools making rules of this sort without evidence (or at least debate).

That has never happened to me nor anyone I know of with Asthma. I find the only time I use my ventolin is when i forget to take my other medication. The rest of the time the ventolin stays well out of the way.

I try to breath in through the nose, out through the mouth. Though since I read an article about how breathing through your mouth can affect your teeth alignment, I try to breathe through the nose all the time.

Back OT, I couldnt agree more that if they are banning spray deodorants for no reason, its ridiculous. But I personally can think of no other reason other than a student has had an issue for them banning - ie if it was because of abuse or that students were doing the flamthrower thing, why wouldnt they just say so?

LadyMayBelle

Giruilla wrote: »

Seeing as you haven't substantiated the above claim, I'd call that an unsubstantiated claim.
CrazyRabbit, are you trolling? Just curious.

Banning aerosol from school changing rooms on the basis it provokes asthma, is unsubstantiated in my opinion.

I am with Giruilla on this one, and do not think he/she is trolling. There are barely any grounds to ban aerosels in relation to asthma (a quick google of asthma and aerosols on google scholar will tell you that). A school has grounds for banning aerosols for reasons such as kids messing with them, or if one child or indeed ten children have reactions to the chemicals or ingredients in them.

I am shocked at people's belief that asthma does not have psychological aspect; it is a organic medical issue that is triggered and affected by yes, physical things such as allergens but also environmental and systemic issues such as relational stress, anxiety, even domestic violence. Asthma can be deemed as a psychosomatic reaction in some instances.

This is not saying the 'root cause is in poor parenting or bad upbringing' however the management of stressors and emotion regulation WILL inevitably lead to a better quality of life for asthma sufferers. I think people may be getting carried away with thinking asthma sufferers have 'dreadful psychological backgrounds'... asthma has a physical medical basis but psychology will most def affect management.

Some light reading :
http://jpepsy.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/5/542.full.pdf+html

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/31/2/144.short

Edit: just giving info, apologies for going OT. i have made my point about it being ludicrous to ban it for asthma reasons, and baby wipes and roll ons are the next best option if you get nowhere.

darklighter

LadyMayBelle wrote: »

I am with Giruilla on this one, and do not think he/she is trolling. There are barely any grounds to ban aerosels in relation to asthma (a quick google of asthma and aerosols on google scholar will tell you that). A school has grounds for banning aerosols for reasons such as kids messing with them, or if one child or indeed ten children have reactions to the chemicals or ingredients in them.

I am shocked at people's belief that asthma does not have psychological aspect; it is a organic medical issue that is triggered and affected by yes, physical things such as allergens but also environmental and systemic issues such as relational stress, anxiety, even domestic violence. Asthma can be deemed as a psychosomatic reaction in some instances.

This is not saying the 'root cause is in poor parenting or bad upbringing' however the management of stressors and emotion regulation WILL inevitably lead to a better quality of life for asthma sufferers. I think people may be getting carried away with thinking asthma sufferers have 'dreadful psychological backgrounds'... asthma has a physical medical basis but psychology will most def affect management.

Some light reading :
http://jpepsy.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/5/542.full.pdf+html

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/31/2/144.short

Edit: just giving info, apologies for going OT. i have made my point about it being ludicrous to ban it for asthma reasons, and baby wipes and roll ons are the next best option if you get nowhere.

Nobody said it doesnt have a "psychological aspect".

However, stating that it is as much a psychological problem as it is a physical one, has no basis in fact.

If a student has had a reaction, that is enough grounds IMO. The health and well-being of a child is a darn sight more important than whether kids get to use lynx or impluse.

Giruilla

LadyMayBelle wrote: »

A school has grounds for banning aerosols for reasons such as kids messing with them, or if one child or indeed ten children have reactions to the chemicals or ingredients in them.

Completely agree. When there are so many logical reasons to ban aerosols, I don't know why they would use asthma as a reason.

and as to

RustyNut wrote: »

Schools put all sorts of rules in place for all sorts of reasons. If you don't like them find a school where the rules are suitable for you.

Would it not be better where parents are allowed to question the running of a school rather than accept a de facto standard of unquestionable authority?

RustyNut

Giruilla wrote: »

Would it not be better where parents are allowed to question the running of a school rather than accept a de facto standard of unquestionable authority?

Of course parents should have an input into the running of the school and should be consulted on all policy issues.

This however is a mickey mouse issue, some puples don't like rollon deodorant I have not heard any reason to complane other than they don't like them, well suck it up.

I don't think it is appropriate for parents to be trying to micromanage schools that is best left to the professionals, if they have decided that it is in the best intrest of the pupils and school that aerosols should be banned well that's that.

Principls have enough to deal with with out, my johney doesn't like liquid soap, my Mary wants softer toilet paper, my anney won't use roll on deodorant.

Get over it and move on
Just my opinion...

Giruilla

RustyNut wrote: »

I don't think it is appropriate for parents to be trying to micromanage schools that is best left to the professionals, if they have decided that it is in the best intrest of the pupils and school that aerosols should be banned well that's that.

I completely agree. Yet, how would you feel about a school constantly making decisions that have no logical basis? Or as is the case here, having logical bases, yet giving parents illogical reasons?

RustyNut

Giruilla wrote: »

I completely agree. Yet, how would you feel about a school constantly making decisions that have no logical basis? Or as is the case here, having logical bases, yet giving parents illogical reasons?

I didn't get constantly from anywhere,this appears to be a single issue to me.

Guy:Incognito

Do kids not play on sports teams outside of schools anymore? Where do they shower after those?

Giruilla

RustyNut wrote: »

I didn't get constantly from anywhere,this appears to be a single issue to me.

It was a hypothetical question

darklighter

Giruilla wrote: »

I completely agree. Yet, how would you feel about a school constantly making decisions that have no logical basis? Or as is the case here, having logical bases, yet giving parents illogical reasons?

What is the illogical reason? They gave the reason as asthma and there is no evidence to say that this isnt the reason and no logical reason for the school to use asthma as the excuse if it wasnt.

RustyNut

Giruilla wrote: »

It was a hypothetical question

In that hypothetical situation I would approach the BOM and express my concerns, that is not the case here, they said it was due to an asthma issue and whether that was physical or psychological we shall just have to take their word.

Orion

RustyNut wrote: »

Giruilla wrote: »

It was a hypothetical question

In that hypothetical situation I would approach the BOM and express my concerns, that is not the case here, they said it was due to an asthma issue and whether that was physical or psychological we shall just have to take their word.

The BoM will refer you to the PA. That's the forum to raise issues like this. The BOM deals with the broader picture not day to day matters.