Maybe its the players...

Silvio.Dante

It was the same four years ago. When the 'big one' came to town our players bottled it big time.

Only a few months ago DOC expalined in great detail how much he dislikes playing in important matches for Munster due to the pressure to win.

Now another WC come knocking on the dooor and our players suddenly can't work a lineout, hold onto the ball in the tackle and we all turn on the Coach...

Amazotheamazing

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

It was the same four years ago. When the 'big one' came to town our players bottled it big time.

Only a few months ago DOC expalined in great detail how much he dislikes playing in important matches for Munster due to the pressure to win.

Now another WC come knocking on the dooor and our players suddenly can't work a lineout, hold onto the ball in the tackle and we all turn on the Coach...

All the players have handled pressure all through their careers.

Too many of our players can't do the basics of their position. Healy (while much improved), Court and especially Buckley are weak scrummagers, Best is a weak thrower, DOC, POC, Cullen have poor hands, Reddan is too error prone, O'Leary can't pass, O'Gara can't break and Sexton's control is very suspect at Int level, D'Arcy is a limited passer, Earls, Kearney and Trimble are poor passers, etc. Most of these are skills shortages that shouldn't exist in pro players.

MoneyMilo

Healy isn't a weak scrummager

CiaranMT

Didn't see the game but any RTÉ highlights showing a scrum invariably showed the Irish one on top.

Amazotheamazing

MoneyMilo wrote: »

Healy isn't a weak scrummager

Yes he is. In the last three games the Irish scrum has been second best. Admittedly, France and England take the scrum seriously but Healy is nowhere near as good as he's going to be. Healy gave away three penalties today, don't recall any being in open play but I'm open to correction.

GerM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Cullen have poor hands

Fair point on most there but I definitely disagree on this one. Cullen, despite perceptions, has good hands. He very rarely knocks on and takes passes that he has no right to. He's not O'Kelly or Richie Grey but he's solid. He was a No. 8 in the early stages of his career. Completely useless as a ball carrier, mind you, but his hands are actually decent enough.

Amazotheamazing

GerM wrote: »

Fair point on most there but I definitely disagree on this one. Cullen, despite perceptions, has good hands. He very rarely knocks on and takes passes that he has no right to. He's not O'Kelly or Richie Grey but he's solid. He was a No. 8 in the early stages of his career. Completely useless as a ball carrier, mind you, but his hands are actually decent enough.

But these guys should be as good as Grey (for example), they've been pro's for 10 years or more. Maybe it's not right to say poor as in hands like feet but definitely not as good as they should be. Tbf, i think the next generation of players will be better in this regard, I've even seen Nagle pass behind his back, somehow I hope I never see POC try.

durkadurka

Cullens deficiency is his legs.

yimrsg

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Yes he is. In the last three games the Irish scrum has been second best. Admittedly, France and England take the scrum seriously but Healy is nowhere near as good as he's going to be. Healy gave away three penalties today, don't recall any being in open play but I'm open to correction.

One of them was going in from the side at a ruck in england's half. Considering some of our players aversion to rucking today I'd rather someone do that than and make an error than avoid hitting a ruck and give the opposition nice quick ball. Also he got an unprecedented amount of treatment in the game, both from our own medics and the England players. DK knows how important he is to the team at scrums and that was clearly evident today as DK chose to play him for so long rather than to preserve him in case of injury. Plenty of others here in the matchday thread were calling for him to be subbed earlier as he was in the wars so much.

If you consider Healy weak then Court/Horan etc are far weaker scrummagers, compared to them he's also got the advantage of youth on his side and once he's accumulated more experience he'll improve further.

Hagz

Healy is a fine/good scrummager. He's got one over on Clermont, Northampton and England. All you need from your props these days, is for them not to be such a hindrance on the game itself. And by that I mean, if the scrum is such a shambles that the other team are free to knock on and throw forward passes without loosing possession. At least when Healy and Ross are on, the other team knocking on is a good thing.

Amazotheamazing

yimrsg wrote: »

If you consider Healy weak then Court/Horan etc are far weaker scrummagers, compared to them he's also got the advantage of youth on his side and once he's accumulated more experience he'll improve further.

I said as much in my post.

The standards people are applying are far too low, if we want to win a RWC.

We should expect our props to be destructive scrummagers, we should expect our locks to be auxiliary backrowers, we should expect our 9's to be able to pass etc. In many ways Healy is the ideal modern prop but he's not a destructive scrummager, that's the start and end of it imo, if people are going to go around calling him a strong prop.

Corsendonk

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

, DOC, POC, Cullen have poor hands,

durkadurka wrote: »

Cullens deficiency is his legs.

Jesus, has Cullen got any body parts that work?

danthefan

All of 5 months ago we had the players to hammer England off the pitch. The reason we lost today is not that we didn't have the personnel.

durkadurka

Corsendonk wrote: »

Jesus, has Cullen got any body parts that work?

His hands are grand IMO. He also has movie star looks.

yimrsg

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I said as much in my post.

The standards people are applying are far too low, if we want to win a RWC.

We should expect our props to be destructive scrummagers, we should expect our locks to be auxiliary backrowers, we should expect our 9's to be able to pass etc. In many ways Healy is the ideal modern prop but he's not a destructive scrummager, that's the start and end of it imo, if people are going to go around calling him a strong prop.

Completely agree with you on the destructive point. He'll hold his own but he ain't no Tonga'huia. But there are very few props that are as mobile or as powerful a ball carrier as Healy, he ain't the best at scrummaging but he can improve that over time coupled with him playing like an extra back rower I wouldn't complain. It's guys who are chosen as back rowers failing to due their primary duty that worrys me most.

It's all well and good expecting WC challenges but on todays evidence having a destructive scrummager won't be enough. It's a case of too many average players playing and/or too many good players playing beneath themselves.

Fight_Night

On paper we don't have the squad to beat a full strength NZ, SA or Oz. Anyone who thinks that we do is delusional. Realistically the only way we could win the world cup is if other teams were very off form or suffered a lot of injuries, combined with us being on form. However with that said we have probably the second best first choice 15 in the northern hemisphere. Therefore we should be playing better than this and the biggest problem does not lie with the players, it lies with the management.

sleepyman

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

But these guys should be as good as Grey (for example), they've been pro's for 10 years or more. Maybe it's not right to say poor as in hands like feet but definitely not as good as they should be. Tbf, i think the next generation of players will be better in this regard, I've even seen Nagle pass behind his back, somehow I hope I never see POC try.

You've hit the nail on the head regarding the skills shortages that prevail in the irish team-another thing is we don't have the level of pace that's the norm in the southern hemisphere.Earls is probably our fastest back but how would he compare in terms of speed to the AUS & NZ backlines.

I think people like at the Heineken Cup successes & expect Ireland to be getting to world cup semi-finals.I don't think we've beaten a southern hemisphere team away since 1979 against Australia.We've never beaten New Zealand & we've France four times I think since 2000.
Quarter-Finals is about as good as it gets at the moment.

Our positions where we have an "All-rounder" and their name

1. Healy - completely disagree that he can't scrummage.
2. NA
3. NA - (Ross can scrum, but wont win awards in the loose though he is competent)
4. POC
5. NA
6. Ferris, SOB
7. Wallace, (Jennings almost makes it but lack of exposure at international level makes it extremely tough to say so.)
8. Heaslip, SOB
9. NA
10. Sexton (ROG has a poor running game, and a weak shoulder, there are aspects of his game that he's the best in the world at, but he's not an all-rounder)
11. Earls has the game to be an allrounder at 11 (but no other position on the field), Trimble can't kick but doesn't need to
12. NA
13. BOD (barely here anymore if we're being brutally honest)
14. Bowe, Trimble (rarely see a 14 kicking)
15. NA (Kearney and Jones may be here, but we're gonna need to see a lot more of them first.)

That's simply not enough positions where we have players that can compete in all facets of the game. We've got plenty of players than can do 60/70% of their role to an exceptionally high standard, but whom can look very average at the rest.

rockman15

Here's the thing,

The NH players have not developed the skill set of the SH counterparts. The simple reason is because they are coached differently and are brought up in a different playing culture. Where kids/teenagers play union and league on different days of the weekend, they learn different skill sets that complement eachother. The focus on skills from 8-12 in the SH is on support running and handling drills. The speed, strength etc will come as they grow. Up here we compete against GAA and s*ccer. The skill sets dont really cross over as the mechanics of passing etc are different as are the support lines.

Until we get a generation that is coached in an exploratory and continuity based rugby fashion the skills wont be inate to them. The days of big, lumbering forwards plodding up the park are long gone. Dynamism is now more important and its shown in our reliance on the like of Healy, SOB, ferris and heaslip. POC DOC and Leo are all now very very much behind the skill set required at international level. Our backs when on song can compete but we lack size at 12 (similar to the Australians) and wingers who score tries frequently. I'm sure the guys will get the ball over the line, but getting them up there to do that is our biggest problem at the moment. Any ball beyond 13 looks impotent, futile and directionless. It's Alan Gaffney who has questions to answer IMO.

Tigerandahalf

James Downey should have been looked at at 12. Badly need someone to get the ball over the gain line. When Drico was at his best he was taking ball off Henderson's or Roberts' shoulder after the initial break had been made. Serious lack of pace in the team. Many of the backs like Earls and Fitzgerald have been over-hyped. Hopefully they'll come good if they get a few scores. The team should change their game plan too....it's way too risky playing the ball out from your 22....do the grind first and then you can do that. It's a strategy that forces way too many turnovers and against the likes of Australia we would be killed. Keep the ball tight, sort out the line out and consistently challenge the opposition line out throw...too often we let the opposition free reign on their own throw. If it's wet in NZ the current strategy is asking for trouble.
All's not lost though. Australia are beatable, if we play the game very tight, take them on in the scrums and make it a game of penalties...the Aussies don't have a reliable goalkicker...we could turn them over.

shuffol

The reason why we continually throw the ball laterally from one side of the pitch to the other isnt because Court and Buckley cant scrummage.

The reason we send one off static runners into contact and cant get over the gainline isnt because POC has poor hands.

The reason we commit too few players to the breakdown and end up with slow ball isnt because D'arcy cant pass.

Its because as a team we havent a notion what we're trying to achieve when we have the ball, you have to blame the coaches for that one.

skregs

The whole "big lad playing 12" thing is crap. Look at the impact JdV had at Munster. Nonu is a brilliant crash-baller and certainly isn't a giant.

D'arcy, when he's on form is great at line-breaks and sucking in defenders. Wallace is a great second OH style centre.

James Downey is a donkey and there's a reason he doesn't play for Ireland

Fight_Night

skregs wrote: »

The whole "big lad playing 12" thing is crap. Look at the impact JdV had at Munster. Nonu is a brilliant crash-baller and certainly isn't a giant.

D'arcy, when he's on form is great at line-breaks and sucking in defenders. Wallace is a great second OH style centre.

James Downey is a donkey and there's a reason he doesn't play for Ireland

Ah tbf Nonu is good bit bigger than Paddy Wallace(over 20kgs heavier). Wallace does not have the muscle to be an international centre. We might get away with it against Wales or Scotland but certainly against New Zealand he would be found out.

Fight_Night

Fight_Night wrote: »

Ah tbf Nonu is good bit bigger than Paddy Wallace(over 20kgs heavier). Wallace does not have the muscle to be an international centre. We might get away with it against Wales or Scotland but certainly against New Zealand he would be found out.

sure as shít wasn't "found out" the last time he played against them...

You don't need to be heavy to tackle a heavy guy. Technique is more important in defence than strength.

GerM

skregs wrote: »

The whole "big lad playing 12" thing is crap. Look at the impact JdV had at Munster. Nonu is a brilliant crash-baller and certainly isn't a giant.

It's not crap at all. It's a very effective tactic but those who play there and are successful at the top level have more to their game than simply crash ball. Nonu is an absolute tank so I don't know where you're getting your ideas on him from. He's a centre that is about 16.5 stone. JDV is a big guy but there's a lot more to him than simply crashing ball. He has excellent pace, decent hands and a great nose for the try line. Nonu is similar.

The reason Downey shouldn't be playing for Ireland that he, unlike those above, is a one trick pony. It was telling when Ashton was interviewed after the a game and was asked about Downey's soft hands for a try and he broke down laughing at the comment asking was the interviewer sure he was talking about Downey. He's over 30 and is very one dimensional. He's a good option to have and would be useful against the lower nations but he turns like a bus and isn't particularly quick unlike the likes of Nonu and JDV who had the pace to play wing before moving to 12 nor does he have hands as good as them.

skregs

Fight_Night wrote: »

Ah tbf Nonu is good bit bigger than Paddy Wallace(over 20kgs heavier). Wallace does not have the muscle to be an international centre. We might get away with it against Wales or Scotland but certainly against New Zealand he would be found out.

Wallace doesn't play the crash ball game though, so he doesn't need that extra weight. He plays the Matt Giteau style of 12, and he's pretty much the same size/weight as Giteau

Fight_Night

Deleted User wrote: »

sure as shít wasn't "found out" the last time he played against them...

You don't need to be heavy to tackle a heavy guy. Technique is more important in defence than strength.

Don't get me wrong I still think he's our best replacement 12, I just don't think it's very reassuring that it's the case. Would be happy to be proven wrong though.

wixfjord

skregs wrote: »

The whole "big lad playing 12" thing is crap. Look at the impact JdV had at Munster. Nonu is a brilliant crash-baller and certainly isn't a giant.

D'arcy, when he's on form is great at line-breaks and sucking in defenders. Wallace is a great second OH style centre.

James Downey is a donkey and there's a reason he doesn't play for Ireland

Certainly helps if you're big and good though, and Nonu and De Villiers are hardly small men!
It's definitely the trend to have a big man at 12. and Downey is playing really well for N'hampton, not that I'd agree with him playing.

You've also got the argument that BOD played some of his best rugby when paired with Roberts for the Lions, who Downey is quite like.

skregs

GerM wrote: »

It's not crap at all. It's a very effective tactic but those who play there and are successful at the top level have more to their game than simply crash ball.

I completely agree with you. A big lad who is also excellent at the fundamentals of playing centre is unstoppable, but this idea that you need to be big to play inside centre or that all you need to do is crash ball (like when London Irish were doing that thing with Steffon Armitage in the second receiver position) is ridiculous.

sock puppet

sleepyman wrote: »

You've hit the nail on the head regarding the skills shortages that prevail in the irish team-another thing is we don't have the level of pace that's the norm in the southern hemisphere.Earls is probably our fastest back but how would he compare in terms of speed to the AUS & NZ backlines.

Actually neither New Zealand nor South Africa would be the quickest. For one their centres wouldn't be much younger than ours and they seem to be going for solidity rather than pace in the back three.

CatFromHue

wixfjord wrote: »

You've also got the argument that BOD played some of his best rugby when paired with Roberts for the Lions, who Downey is quite like.

I think Roberts played his best rugby with a skill full player like BOD so it works both ways. He is looking like a very average player at the moment.

Downey is at his level in England I think. I can't see him making the step up to international level.

matthew8

Part of the problem is the low expectations for these players. For years in Munster getting to the quarter finals was a given and getting knocked out there was quite a disappointment. For Ireland the expectations are that a triple crown is a success and getting to the quarters and losing respectably is success. It's ridiculous.

CatFromHue

matthew8 wrote: »

Part of the problem is the low expectations for these players. For years in Munster getting to the quarter finals was a given and getting knocked out there was quite a disappointment. For Ireland the expectations are that a triple crown is a success and getting to the quarters and losing respectably is success. It's ridiculous.

I think you've got this all wrong. Look at the ridicule McGahan got after bring Munster to a Heineken Semi in 09/10. The players themselves said that wasn't good enough.

Piliger

I am starting to day dream about the golden years of Irish rugby a couple of years ago. I really feel it's all over now, for another 10 years or more. All of these players are either past their best, not good enough or guided by labrador with a harness ......

Blobby George

Corsendonk wrote: »

Jesus, has Cullen got any body parts that work?

His cock works perfectly well. Just ask your mother.

CiaranMT

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think you've got this all wrong. Look at the ridicule McGahan got after bring Munster to a Heineken Semi in 09/10. The players themselves said that wasn't good enough.

That's more or less what matthew has said.

GreenHell

On one hand I'm glad we are having these nightmares now, instead of in the world cup. Maybe these slow starts to the season are just an Ireland thing.

These guys are pro's though and I really would have hoped that would have started this run into the world cup closer to the standard we are seeing in the French.

Looking at positives..

Our defensive system looks correct to counter the type of game we'll see from the SH sides.
Our scrum has improved, Ross and Healy have to start. I doubt out scrum will be cause of many penalties come the World cup.
Murray could well be the Ireland number one scrum half by the end of the tournament.
No weakness at 10
Back 3 look potent

Worries

Centre looks weak, I really hope D'Arcy improves. Not picking on him here as we all saw Earls flat footed in the last game. But you could see the impact Tindell had at 12 for England. We really missed some penetration/guile at 12. I would expect more from our senior players.
Lineout looks get at able.

CatFromHue

Blobby George wrote: »

His cock works perfectly well. Just ask your mother.

:pac::pac::pac: Zing!

CiaranMT wrote: »

That's more or less what matthew has said.

Oops I forget to finish. I'm fairly sure both BOD and POC have said publicly that a triple crown isn't good enough for this team.

PhatPiggins

CatFromHue wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac: Zing!



Oops I forget to finish. I'm fairly sure both BOD and POC have said publicly that a triple crown isn't good enough for this team.

That would be easier for them to back up if they were actually winning triple crowns.

Celly Smunt

Piliger wrote: »

I am starting to day dream about the golden years of Irish rugby a couple of years ago. I really feel it's all over now, for another 10 years or more. All of these players are either past their best, not good enough or guided by labrador with a harness ......

to be honest a lot of the younger players are promising and will probably only prosper over the next few years i.e trimble,sexton,murray etc etc,it's almost like we're in a bad transition period now.

Piliger

Piliger wrote: »

I am starting to day dream about the golden years of Irish rugby a couple of years ago. I really feel it's all over now, for another 10 years or more. All of these players are either past their best, not good enough or guided by labrador with a harness ......

I don't share your pessimism at all. In the next 3/4 years, we will see these players competing for Ireland Jerseys, as well as guys we know nothing about at this stage.

1. Healy, Archer, McGrath
2. Strauss, Cronin
3. Hagan, McAllister, McGrath
4. Nagle, O'Callaghan
5.
6. SOB, Ruddock, Butler
7. Ryan,
8. SOB, Ruddock, Butler
9. Murray, Cooney, McGrath
10. Sexton, Keatley, McAllister, Marshall, McKinney
11. Earls, Conway, Gilroy, Zebo
12/13. McFadden, Spence, Cave, Whitten, Griffin, O'Malley, Barnes
14. Bowe, Zebo, D.Kearney,
15. Kearney, Jones,

Plenty of others worth talking about too.

tolosenc

Heaslip'll still be around come the next WC too!

Why do we seem to fall so drastically short in the lock department? Ferris and McLoughlin is the future of the Irish SR, for me.

Podge_irl

GreenHell wrote: »

Back 3 look potent

We haven't scored a try in 3 of our last 4 games...

tolosenc

And the only back 3 player involved in any of the tries we did score was Fitz...

dtpc191991

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't share your pessimism at all. In the next 3/4 years, we will see these players competing for Ireland Jerseys, as well as guys we know nothing about at this stage.

1. Healy, Archer, McGrath
2. Strauss, Cronin
3. Hagan, McAllister, McGrath
4. Nagle, O'Callaghan
5.
6. SOB, Ruddock, Butler
7. Ryan,
8. SOB, Ruddock, Butler
9. Murray, Cooney, McGrath
10. Sexton, Keatley, McAllister, Marshall, McKinney
11. Earls, Conway, Gilroy, Zebo
12/13. McFadden, Spence, Cave, Whitten, Griffin, O'Malley, Barnes
14. Bowe, Zebo, D.Kearney,
15. Kearney, Jones,

Plenty of others worth talking about too.

Thought I'd add these three
8. Heaslip
10. I.Humpherys
11/13/14/15. Fitzgerald

desertcircus

tolosenc wrote: »

Heaslip'll still be around come the next WC too!

Why do we seem to fall so drastically short in the lock department? Ferris and McLoughlin is the future of the Irish SR, for me.

McLoughlin will hopefully be there, but Ferris doesn't want to play second row and has said so. As well as that, the last time this was mentioned here someone pointed out that lineout duty isn't where you want to put a player with dodgy knees.

Someone who I think will be competing for the second row in coming years is Devin Toner. I know a lot of people are unconvinced by him, but he's still quite young, and he appears to have bulked up during the summer - he no longer looks gangly, just bloody huge. He's only 25, and he'll be getting a lot of gametime with Leinster this year - and his sheer size means you can wreck a lot of opposition lineouts simply by lifting him at 2. Alternatively, Leinster could in a year or two be fielding a second row of Ruddock and Locky along with Heaslip, O'Brien and Dominic Ryan behind them - those five would make for a hell of a time in the loose.

Ian Humphreys won't have a chance at an Ireland jersey unless and until he starts putting in hits. Ulster and Ireland would be reasonably well served by asking a couple of recently retired props and locks (say Hayes and Mal O'Kelly) to spend a full summer barrelling into him once a minute, eight hours a day, five days a week, until he starts fronting up and taking them down.

Overall, the Ireland team in four years' time will have to have far more of an emphasis on open play, handling skills and running rugby - grunt isn't going to cut it. The last couple of years seems to have shown that a team relying on brute force can get closed down very effectively by a team able to move faster - strong defensive lines are now conceding virtually zero territory to teams using pick-and-go tactics. That means more and more members of the pack are going to move and run like backrowers - Leinster played like that last year, with Healy, Strauss and Hines all doing it.

GerM

Whatever about his defence, Humphreys is simply too old for Irish management to start considering him for an international career. He'll turn 30 in this season's 6N. Keatley will be brought in and I'm sure will be viewed as the long term option in the role alongside Sexton.

JustinDee

tolosenc wrote: »

Why do we seem to fall so drastically short in the lock department? Ferris and McLoughlin is the future of the Irish SR, for me.

I doubt that would be anything like a future Irish second-row. Donnacha Ryan, Devin Toner, Dan Tuohy and Ian Nagle would be, in my mind, names more likely to be seen there.

WeeBushy

JustinDee wrote: »

I doubt that would be anything like a future Irish second-row. Donnacha Ryan, Devin Toner, Dan Tuohy and Ian Nagle would be, in my mind, names more likely to be seen there.

Well that's depressing.

shuffol

I realy cant see Toner making it, he's just too awkward. He Buckleys in the scrum, he cant get low enough in defence so people just run through him and he's ineffective at best at rucks. For his size he doesnt have the impact in lineouts you'd expect either In fairness to him though he does understand how to run onto the ball at pace which is a concept beyond most Irish forwards.

We're one injury to POC away from having a huge crisis in the second row, DOC and Cullen are very limited players at test level.