Returning to education after 22 years - any way to get grant?

Mollymawk

Hi Folks,
Sorry if this has been covered somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it if it has. (Mods, please move if you feel I'm asking in the wrong place)

Here's the problem. 22 years ago I completed 1st year of an Arts degree, and then dropped out. Now I've been accepted to do a science degree. I qualify for the BTEA and fit within all the means etc for the VEC grant to cover Registration fees. I got a letter today from the VEC refusing my application on the grounds that I have previously completed year 1 of a Level 8, and therefore I am not progressing with my education.
The highest qualification I currently hold is a L5 (my leaving cert!), and returning to continue my original course is no longer an option after 22 years. (Plus I live a hundred miles away now, and have a family and ties here.) I wrote to the VEC outlining the above, and requesting them to look again at my application taking into account the time lapsed and my changed circumstances. If I don't get this grant I'll have to forfeit my place in college, as there is just no way I can come up with €2000.
Anybody here come across this situation before? I'll fight this as far as I can, as it's very important to me. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Larianne

I've moved your post to a thread of it's own Mollymawk.

I can't offer any advice myself. The posters in here are pretty good with help and advice.

Mom34

Firstly I would advise you to double check your eligibility with the VEC considering the amount of time that has elapsed since you were last in third level education.

I don't know whether you have accepted a place on a Level 7 or Level 8 programme but I have a feeling that this can also affect your chances of being funded.

If you've accepted a place on a Level 8 programme check if you would have been eligible for funding had it been a Level 7 programme. I think I've come across this before and it makes a difference.

If you cannot get funding for this year make sure you contact the college and defer your place so that it is protected for next year.

Hope it works out for you.

LilMsss

Mollymawk wrote: »

Hi Folks,
Sorry if this has been covered somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it if it has. (Mods, please move if you feel I'm asking in the wrong place)

Here's the problem. 22 years ago I completed 1st year of an Arts degree, and then dropped out. Now I've been accepted to do a science degree. I qualify for the BTEA and fit within all the means etc for the VEC grant to cover Registration fees. I got a letter today from the VEC refusing my application on the grounds that I have previously completed year 1 of a Level 8, and therefore I am not progressing with my education.
The highest qualification I currently hold is a L5 (my leaving cert!), and returning to continue my original course is no longer an option after 22 years. (Plus I live a hundred miles away now, and have a family and ties here.) I wrote to the VEC outlining the above, and requesting them to look again at my application taking into account the time lapsed and my changed circumstances. If I don't get this grant I'll have to forfeit my place in college, as there is just no way I can come up with €2000.
Anybody here come across this situation before? I'll fight this as far as I can, as it's very important to me. Any advice would be gratefully received.

As far as I know, regardless of the level of the course you began, you didn't complete the course and therefore don't hold a level 8 qualification. Also, more than five years have lapsed since you left that course so you should be eligible for full fees and a grant under the second chance section of the grants scheme.

It would only be if you already had a level 8 qualification and then wanted to do a level 8 course or lower (levels 5,6,7 etc.) that you would not be entitled to a grant/fees, or if you were starting a course less than five years since leaving the last course.

Double check with your local authority, as this was the rule they were following up until two years ago, but government savings initiatives crept in and new restrictions were brought in that suddenly made certain groups of students ineligible for the grant.

I think it's fantastic that you are coming back to education after such a long break. It is a very brave thing you're doing, and not at all easy.

Worst case scenario is that you have to pay fees for the first year of this new course, as technically the government paid these on your behalf 22 years ago. If this is the case, and you lose out on all appeals to your local authority, then you are faced with finding funds to pay for this years fees, but you should be eligible for fees and grant for all subsequent years of your course, as you did not have those fees paid previously by the government.

Tulip11

Hi Mollymawk,
I agree with previous posters....you didn't complete your Level 8 Arts Degree therefore you should be eligible for assistance.

I have a similar situation, completed a Level 7 but as I did the full 3 years might only be eligible for the free fees on the last year of my soon to be started Level 8 degree. The college were pretty open to covering the cost provided my previous IT hadn't already claimed fees on my behalf first time around.....which it turned out they had.

I saw a post on one of the other forums where someone else was having difficulty with their VEC/Local Authority and they appealed the decision....I would do the same, put all the facts in writing.....you didn't complete your degree, therefore no college claimed free fees for you after year 1 therefore you should be entitled to assistance.

You may not be covered this year but will certainly be covered for the remaining years.

Best of luck,
Tulip 11

Mollymawk

Thanks, everybody, for your words of encouragement and advice. All greatly appreciated.

I have written a letter to the VEC appealing the decision, on the grounds that the highest qualification I currently hold is a Level 5 (Leaving Cert). Therefore, beginning a Level 7 course is obviously progressing in my education. And my previous course is no longer open to me as an option.
When I went in with the letter, I actually got to speak to one of the officers, who was very reasonable, but she said that new rulings came out, and she had to turn down somebody who got their degree 35 years ago. I pointed out to her that the difference is that they actually got their degree!
I also told her that I will continue to write in, and appeal this to the very end, because it's very important to me. I will go in to college from next Monday and sit through lectures and wait to see if I get kicked out at some stage while appealing. But if I push that one too far I could find myself in trouble with the Social Welfare, as I won't be available for work and won't be on the BTEA until such time as I register.
I know that the worst case scenario is that I'll have to pay registration fees myself for this year, but without moaning or being melodramatic, I just can't manage that. My son is also starting in 3rd level this year, and there's no way an extra €2000 can be found in the space of a week. Believe me, I've been to every bank and credit union etc.

Mom34 - I most certainly will try to defer my course, although I have a feeling that they don't do that for mature students. Even still, I'm sure I could convince them again at interview next year that they should offer me a place again.
I'd much rather start this year, as waiting until next Sept will mean that I can't even look for any kind of work for a whole 12 months, or I lose all eligiblity for BTEA. Grrr. I don't have the patience for working this system.

LilMsss - I hear all your advice, and it all makes good sense. I think it is the new restrictions that are causing the problem, possibly along with the fact that my previous course was a Level 8 and this one is a Level 7. The irony of it all is that the Government never paid for me the first time around, my parents did. Ah well, it makes no odds really.

Tulip11 - you say your college were amenable to the idea of covering your fees? How did you go about that negotiation? - As the Gov never paid for me first time around, that sounds like a potential path.

And in all of this, is there anyone who can show me how to quote others in my posts? It would make life a lot more straightforward!

Thanks again, everybody. I'll keep trying.

Tulip11

Hi Mollymawk,

Ok, I've applied to St Pats and got in and they sent me out a fees form to get filled in by the previous 3rd level institution (DIT) and when I spoke to St Pats enquiring as to my eligibility they said they wouldn't have a problem but it all depended on whether DIT ever claimed on my behalf the first time around, so the decision wasn't up to St Pats until they received confirmation from DIT.

If you're fees were covered by anyone other than the college then you should be eilgible but am I right in thinking you're moving level 8 to level 7....did you definitely confirm your science degree is level 7 and not level 8?
Either way I'd say the VEC are getting hung up on all this level business....St Pats and DIT were a bit the same...but I'd say you have them on a technicality.....you commenced a level 8 22 yrs ago...before the National Framework of Qualifications was even in existence....you didn't complete the level 8 and no one covered you're fees 22 years ago...therefore you should be eligible for some assistance.

If all else fails, try your local councillor or if you need the 2K urgently try St Vincent de Paul.....I recall seeing another poster contacting them about her registration fee...although they are probabaly inundated at the moment what with the Back to School debacle!! And after exhausting all these options I would contact the college....they usually have a student hardship fund for emergencies.

Sorry for the long drawn out post.....I really hope you get something sorted as it's so annoying when pople are willing to better their situation/employment opportunities and they just can't get someone to mee them half way!

Let us know how you get on,
Tulip11

Mollymawk

If you're fees were covered by anyone other than the college then you should be eilgible

The letter states -
"You are not eligible to receive funding at this time and as you are not progressing in your studies. This stands regardless of ever having grant funding in the past"
"Having previously attended, but not completed, any undergraduate course at Level 8, an applicant will be required to complete an equivalent period of study on an approved course at Level 6, 7, or 8 before being eligible to be considered for a grant."

So that's where they have me. But I'll find a way to do it. It's either that or resign myself to the status quo, which is not a happy thought!

am I right in thinking you're moving level 8 to level 7....did you definitely confirm your science degree is level 7 and not level 8?

My original course was L8, and the one I have now accepted is a L7 with the option to transfer into L8 at the end of the 3 years.

try your local councillor or if you need the 2K urgently try St Vincent de Paul.....I recall seeing another poster contacting them about her registration fee

I hate the thoughts of going to the St V de P - I get the image of those miserable kids at Christmas and feel like I'm taking the bit of turkey straight out of their mouths. But I won't rule anything out just yet.

In the meantime, I'm trying to get the young lad out of home and into campus accommodation without any word on his grant yet. Aaaaghhh! After all this, college is bound to be a breeze!

Thanks for the support folks.

Annasopra

OK

Lets have a look at where this rule is coming from

http://www.studentfinance.ie/downloads/Student%20Grant%20Scheme%202011.pdf

(5) A grant shall be paid to a student or tuition student, where he or she is in “progression”, within the meaning given to that term by section 2 of the Act, irrespective of whether he or she was paid a grant for previous attendance on a course and subject to the terms and conditions of this Scheme.

(6) Subject to paragraph (8), a grant may not be paid in respect of a repeat period of study on the same course.

(7) Subject to this paragraph, paragraphs (5) and (8), and the specific progression conditions in articles 15 to 17 a grant may not be paid in respect of a repeat period of study, on a different course. Notwithstanding this condition an applicant who, having previously pursued any course, but not completed it, wishes to pursue an approved course, shall be considered for funding in line with the following provisions—


(c) Having previously attended, but not completed, any undergraduate course at Level 8 of the framework of qualifications, or equivalent, an applicant will—

(i) be required to complete an equivalent period of study on an approved undergraduate course at Level 8 of the framework of qualifications before being eligible to be considered for a grant, or
(ii) be required to complete an equivalent period of study on an approved undergraduate course at Level 6 or 7 of the framework of qualifications before being eligible to be considered for a grant, or
(iii) be eligible to be considered for a grant to pursue an approved post leaving certificate course where no more than one year was completed on an undergraduate course at Level 8 of the framework of qualifications, or
(iv) be required to complete an equivalent period of study on an approved post leaving certificate course where more than one
year was completed on any undergraduate course at Level 8 of the framework of qualifications, or equivalent, before being eligible to be considered for a grant, or
(v) be eligible to be considered for a grant to pursue an approved postgraduate course.

(8) An awarding authority shall have discretion to waive the provisions at paragraphs (6) and (7) in exceptional circumstances, in line with guidelines drawn up by the Minister.

(9) Notwithstanding paragraphs (6), (7) and (8), a second chance student or second chance tuition student, in accordance with article 12(6), returning in order to pursue an approved course, may be considered eligible for a grant to pursue an approved course, including where this provides for a repeat period of study, subject to the rules of progression, as provided for in this Scheme and section 2 of the Act.

http://www.studentfinance.ie/downloads/Student%20Grant%20Scheme%202011.pdf
Essentially the grant authority is correct -

However I think that you are perfectly entitled to ask them if they would consider waiving it under Article 8 of their own rules for exceptional circumstances and ask for a copy of the guidelines drawn up by the Minister in Article 8 that I have highlighted in bold above

Mollymawk

Thank you so much, Mango Salsa.
That's exactly the sort of direction I was looking for.

I genuinely feel that my application and my appeal are valid, and everybody I have spoken to is of the same opinion, and yet I understand where the VEC officers are coming from. They have guideines that they have to follow. Hopefully by handing them the exact reason they should reconsider me, in their own words, from their own document, I'll make it easy for them to back down and give it to me.

Fingers, toes, and all appendages in general crossed!

Will keep ye posted.

Mollymawk

Happy days!
Thanks everyone, for your support and advice. I got a call from the VEC yesterday saying that I have been approved for the grant. Today I got a letter of approval for the BTEA, so it's all systems go! I'm thrilled, as I'm really enjoying the course, and now I feel secure there.

I had all my research done, and was all prepared to put in a further appeal, but I didn't have to.
In the end, a very nice lady from the VEC rang me and said that she had scoured the same document that you posted above, Mango Salsa, and I qualified as a "Second Chance Student". She actually apologised for the stress that I must have been under worrying about the grant, and wished me all the best with my studies. It was lovely (if unexpected) to get such a personal call, and I must admit, it restored my faith in human nature somewhat.
So, for the record, it would seem that 5 years out of ed makes you a second chance student, and appears to over-ride the rules of progression. But check it out properly before taking my word for it!

AntiRip

Are your tuition fees also paid for the first year?

I'm in the same boat, second week down now in college and still on JB. I have a level 7 from 14 yrs ago and now doing a level 8 in a different course. College are saying I'm liable for e1800 a year tuition fees for the first three years. Still waiting on decision from VEC. Can't relax until it's all sorted or not..

Mollymawk

Hi AntiRip,

That's a very stressful place to find yourself. Sorry, I'm only seeing your post now - I hope that you have had some luck with resolving this.

I'm not certain, but I think our situations are different, as I never got any sort of qualification in the past, and have been deemed, by the VEC at least, to be a "Second Chance Student".
I don't have full confirmation yet, but I'm fairly certain my tuition fees will be covered. Fingers crossed, because it's awful having committed yourself to something as big as this without knowing exactly where you stand.

I took a few minutes to look into your situation, and the following is on the website below:

http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp9377/course-fees/index.html

The scheme is subject to the following conditions -

1. Tuition fees will be paid in respect only of students attending full-time undergraduate courses.
2. The courses must, other than exceptionally, be of a minimum of two years duration.
3. The courses must be followed in one of the institutions listed in Appendix 2.
4. Tuition fees will not be paid in respect of:
   • students pursuing a second undergraduate course.
   • students who already hold a postgraduate qualification
   Notwithstanding this condition and subject to compliance with the other conditions of the Free Fees initiative, students who already hold a Level 6 qualification (Higher Certificate or National Certificate) or a Level 7 qualification (Ordinary Bachelor Degree or National Diploma) and are progressing to a Level 8 (Honours Bachelor Degree) course without necessarily having received an exemption from the normal duration of the course may be deemed eligible for free fees,
5. Tuition fees will also not be paid in respect of students undertaking a repeat year of study at the same year level. In this regard, this condition may be waived where evidence of exceptional circumstances, such as cases of certified serious illness, is provided.
6. Subject to compliance with the other conditions of the Free Fees initiative, students who have previously pursued but have not completed a course of third level study and subsequently resume third level studies:
   • may be deemed eligible for free fees where the third level course concerned did not attract any exchequer funding (e.g. fees, maintenance, tax relief, subsidy towards course cost)
   • are not eligible for free fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first course of study where the third level course concerned did attract exchequer funding (as above). Part-time and evening students are included in this category.
7. Tuition fees will be paid in respect of eligible students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level in the 2010/2011 academic year.
8. The tuition fees payable do not include the payment to be made by students towards the cost of registration, examination and student services.

September 2010

If I were you I think I would try to appeal the decision, quoting the above, and respectfully asking that they reconsider your application, as you are following the Rules of Progression, and without their support you will be forced through financial circumstances to forfeit your place on the course (I'm assuming here that you don't have that sort of money lying around!).

The very best of luck. Let us know how you get on.

AntiRip

Hi Mollymawk

Got a letter Monday stating that my registration fee will be covered and nothing about the tuition fees. So rang up the VEC and they told me they'd pay for the tuition fees too! I think they heard my relief down the phone line!

3 weeks in and I can now finally relax, well in relative terms as I have two projects already. But at least I know I'm sticking with it now.

All the best to you!

Mollymawk

That's fantastic news. Congratulations, and the very best of luck.

I know the feeling on the assignments etc. It's a bit of a shock to the system. The length of time between my visits here in a sign of how busy I've been, but it's great, isn't it? I'm enjoying every minute of it (except possible having to leave the house in hailstones first thing in the morning!

Hope it all goes smoothly for you.

donegal11

Is the 5 year rule gone?