Do you think,

There might be a maths teacher or a maths brain here or even anyone with an interest in this.

Do you thing if you took some who did say pass maths in the leaving, someone who is neither brilliant at maths nor someone who doesn't get maths.

Anyway they were given one to one tutoring by a fantastic and brilliant maths teacher, do you think after one year they would be able to do higher level maths and get say an A.

Or in simple language do you think being very good at maths is a very special skill and no amount of one to one teaching by a fantastic teacher will make someone with average maths ability very good at maths or do you think it is something that can be learned?

dr.bollocko

Oh no.
Not another math debater.

L'prof

It all depends on the person, I'd like to think that everybody has the capability to do well if they apply themselves, but in reality a lot of people are restrained by their abilities in one area or another!

jdooley28

i'd imagine after a year 1-to-1 tutoring I could do anything

looky loo

I remember vividly, sitting in 5th year maths class, we had just started algebra...:eek:..I sat for a few months thinking I dont get this, adding up letters lark...was all double dutch to me, wasnt getting it, everybody else in the class seemed to be getting it but not me. Decided enough was enough, end of class one day said to the teacher, listen, Im not getting algebra at all, she kept me back for an hour everyday of class until I got it, I will always be grateful to Marian Harkin for the time she spent with me and maths was then a joy to me.

If you have the right teacher, with the will and ability to teach you can learn but you have to be willing to learn.

ScumLord

Practice will always help improve whatever skill it is you want to improve but to some people maths is always going to be easier.

It also depends on how much you need or want to do it. Deep down if you just hate maths it's always going to be hard to learn

TheZohanS

ScumLord wrote: »

Practice will always help improve whatever skill it is you want to improve but to some people maths is always going to be easier.

It also depends on how much you need or want to do it. Deep down if you just hate maths it's always going to be hard to learn

Exactly, the more you use your brain at something the more efficient you get. When I went back to college I'd forgotten all my maths, didn't take long to pick it up and become pretty proficient in the subject. If you have a good teacher you can do it easily.

I was talking to a teacher about this.

The way they saw it was that for most subjects sheer hard work will do the trick but that maths was different i.e. it is a subject that you need natural ability for.

strobe

mariaalice wrote: »

I was talking to a teacher about this.

The way they saw it was that for most subjects sheer hard work will do the trick but that maths was different i.e. it is a subject that you need natural ability for.

Bullsh1t basically and sounds like something a crap teacher would say to excuse themselves from being a crap teacher.

3ndahalfof6

there is a reason why we have doctors and scrubbers, 1+1 = 2.5

huuuuuuuuuu my shopping is very expensive.

partyatmygaff

looky loo wrote: »

I remember vividly, sitting in 5th year maths class, we had just started algebra...:eek:..

You only started Algebra in 5th year?

What did you do for the first five years?

orourkeda

Any academic discipline can be learned.

Virtually every reason given for the inability or unwillingness to learn maths or any other subject is a cop out

That raises the question...is mathematical ability the same as mathematical academic ability.

kowloon

I think the books are partly to blame. The maths books I had in school, and even in college, were just collections of problems and worked examples. They were there as a tool for teachers. Probably the same now.
Most people need something explained, the more utility the better.
When a student asks 'why do we do it this way?' and gets told that's just the way it is, or that's the way they want it in the exams, the curriculum/teacher has failed.
That's why maths has a special place in the fears of students in this country.

AnamGlas

If you wanted to, it's probably possible.

But most people seriously underestimate the amount of work needed for HL maths.

una_profesora

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

there is a reason why we have doctors and scrubbers, 1+1 = 2.5

huuuuuuuuuu my shopping is very expensive.

Math isn't like 1+1 it's philosophy, way of thinking, you just need to change your philosophy of shopping imo

themadchef

It's about passion, yet again.

I'm completly useless at maths because i dont enjoy it. I did enjoy history, English, and clearly loved Home economics.

Could i be good at it? There is nothing i couldint do with the right motivating factors. Simply put, maths didint do it for me, yet some how geeks do :pac: go figure!

tfitzgerald

I would not think you would be able to do it . I think you have to have a natural ability for it even then you have to work very hard

Scealta_saol

I don't think it's just about passion or natural ability. I have natural ability in school in maths and english and the subjects that fall in the same bracket as them. And I wouldn't say I'm a geek which lets me do maths... it was about interests and the teachers I had...

For those who simply didn't get it, they need to be taught differently. They need to see how maths figures into everyday life. e.g. a student who is very much into football needs to be shown how a footballer or goalkeeper will mentally (and subconsciously) use trig to score in a penalty situation etc...

Some subjects you will never need after you leave school. Maths is used for everything - to ensure you get the best deal in your mortgage, in budgeting for day to day living/spending etc.. once maths is taught in a more practical manner that emphasises (spelling??) that then it may help more students grasp it..

3ndahalfof6

una_profesora wrote: »

Math isn't like 1+1 it's philosophy, way of thinking, you just need to change your philosophy of shopping imo

thats what you were taught and you believe it, or did you invent it all by your lonesome.

EuropeanSon

mariaalice wrote: »

There might be a maths teacher or a maths brain here or even anyone with an interest in this.

Do you thing if you took some who did say pass maths in the leaving, someone who is neither brilliant at maths nor someone who doesn't get maths.

Anyway they were given one to one tutoring by a fantastic and brilliant maths teacher, do you think after one year they would be able to do higher level maths and get say an A.

Or in simple language do you think being very good at maths is a very special skill and no amount of one to one teaching by a fantastic teacher will makesomeone with average maths ability very good at maths or do you think it is something that can be learned?

I am going into second year undergraduate Maths in TCD, and I give grinds in maths in my spare time, and I think that anybody with no severe learning difficulties is capable of doing HL Maths to A1 standard.

The biggest obstacles to achievement IMO, in order, are as follows:
1. The irrational but pervasive mentality that maths is difficult and that if you don't "get it" immediately, you aren't capable of doing it. This is reinforced by parents, by media, by teachers in many cases, and is a self-fulfilling prophecy in that it makes people more likely to give up when they don't immediately succeed.

2. The poor teaching standards in many schools. Maths teachers should have maths related degrees, but few do. I came across many students who failed to understand simple concepts because their teachers were too lazy to explain it properly and instead did something along the lines of stating "that's just how it is, learn it".

3. The poor incentive that HL maths offers, by virtue of it requiring, on average, more work than most other subjects, while still only offering the same number of points much shorter courses, which are also examined to a much lower standard. Languages such as French and German are taught to very low standards, and should really be taught to the same level as Irish, or to a level comparable to A Level exams.

I would think that 10-12 weeks of intense (say, 1 hour per day of teaching, with another hour+ of 'homework') work would be sufficient to take an Ordinary Level B student to A1 level.

EuropeanSon

AnamGlas wrote: »

If you wanted to, it's probably possible.

But most people seriously underestimate the amount of work needed for HL maths.

That just simply isn't true. Its the type of work that most people need to change. Most people vastly overstate how difficult it is.

pragmatic1

Someone who is average at math can become better. For someone who is poor it would be extremely difficult.

EuropeanSon

Bit of light reading on the subject for you all:
http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

kowloon

EuropeanSon wrote: »

should really be taught to the same level as Irish, or to a level comparable to A Level exams.

Much prefer the A-level way of doing things, no core subjects, they only do subjects they have a passion for, and to a much higher standard.

Novella

The word 'maths' is used so many times in the OP!

strobe

Novella wrote: »

The word 'maths' is used so many times in the OP!

Prove it.

Musicman2006

Just before i sat my junior cert I was told by the teacher that I was useless at maths and that I was to move to the pass maths class. I had no choice in the matter..

Years later - I'm now a chartered civil & structural engineer, got 95% in my final year college maths exams and have since given brief lectures on related topics - so yes, anything's possible.

Conor108

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ek61w1LxSc

Khan Academy ftw

Kojak

Novella wrote: »

The word 'maths' is used so many times in the OP!

If you were good at maths, you would be able to give an accurate number of times....

DEFTLEFTHAND

With hard work you can achieve in any field of academia. We all have innate abilities for certain subjects. In school I found that history and english came to me quite naturally, whereas I had to work alot harder at maths and science to achieve the same competency.

metaoblivia

I agree with EuropeanSon. There are students who will have to work harder at understanding mathematical concepts, but there are students like that in any subject. Unless there is a pronounced learning disability, most people should be able to do higher level maths.

And as someone who runs a tutoring company, I can tell you that one-on-one tutoring from a brilliant math tutor would make a huge difference. Ideally, your tutor would be brilliant not just because of their subject knowledge, but also because they know how to present ideas and concepts in different ways, so that if you don't get it the first time, there's another method. In my personal experience, that's one of the key elements of learning math. In school, I always tested extremely high on mathematical concepts, and again and again I would be placed in upper level math courses that I struggled to succeed in. If I followed the teacher's method, I would barely pass. But if I had the freedom to use my own method, I would get top scores. I didn't always understand the methods I used - I mainly operated on pure instinct of what felt right and logical - but it got me A's, time and again. Had I had a math tutor, maybe I would have understood what I was doing and felt more comfortable with the subject.

partyatmygaff

EuropeanSon wrote: »

That just simply isn't true. Its the type of work that most people need to change. Most people vastly overstate how difficult it is.

Maths as a discipline is not difficult. Maths as a subject taught in the Leaving Cert is difficult.

It's not the content that's difficult, it's the subject itself. The teaching methods and standards are so poor that students are more often than not either forced to get grinds or self-teach. This causes an exponential increase in workload that puts HL Maths at twice or thrice the burden of other subjects. Looking at it from the perspective of someone doing the LC what incentives are there in bothering with Maths?

Is the course content interesting? Do people think "This may come in handy one day, I better learn it"? For the most part, no. The subject seems so far removed from real life when compared to other subjects such as English or Chemistry. To the average 17/18 year old, subjects such as English or Chemistry are seen as being much more worthwhile to learn.

Not only is there a lack of interest but the fact that the workload for HL Maths far exceeds any other subject on the LC course you can see why people avoid doing HL Maths if at all possible.

strobe

strobe wrote: »

Prove it.

What? No one? That's top quality maths humour right there.

Bah! I'm going to bed.

PseudoFamous

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What did you do for the first five years?

I went to a tech for the junior cycle, so throwing staplers at each other, mainly. I still managed to get a B.

later12

mariaalice wrote: »

Do you thing if you took some who did say pass maths in the leaving, someone who is neither brilliant at maths nor someone who doesn't get maths.

Anyway they were given one to one tutoring by a fantastic and brilliant maths teacher, do you think after one year they would be able to do higher level maths and get say an A.

At higher level maths? I think it would either (a) take longer than a year or (b) take up so much of the individual's time & energy that their other subjects would suffer.

Strong performance in Mathematics is not something that can be learned, it's a skill that has to be developed.

Also, it's a cumulative skill, so if a student progresses through his or her studies without really making sure they have grasped all earlier stages of the knowledge pyramid, then the whole thing can start to look like complete double dutch.

I used to give maths grinds, & one of the most frequent causes of students' difficulties were failing to really establish a rule or method in their brains, to know it upside down and inside out before moving on to the next stage of their education.

Another problem was that students would know a rule off my heart, say, pertaining to differentiation or integration in their heads, but they wouldn't understand why they were doing what they were doing. In fact, in some cases they wouldn't even be able to string two sentences together to describe something as basic as differentiation and how it might have a practical application. So that sort of thinking impedes progress as well: if you don't get the basics in plain english, then it renders the more complex and theoretical stuff incomprehensible.

MarshellaSmith

Our kids are very smart. Still most of them may fail Math tests conducted in Europe or in Asian countries. This is because of easy curriculum they are offered at school here. Parents need to take Math education in their hand, and offer curriculum like Saxon or Tutorteddy at an early age. Spread the word, and save America.

Badly Drunk Boy

looky loo wrote: »

I remember vividly, sitting in 5th year maths class, we had just started algebra...:eek:..I sat for a few months thinking I dont get this, adding up letters lark...was all double dutch to me, wasnt getting it, everybody else in the class seemed to be getting it but not me. Decided enough was enough, end of class one day said to the teacher, listen, Im not getting algebra at all, she kept me back for an hour everyday of class until I got it, I will always be grateful to Marian Harkin for the time she spent with me and maths was then a joy to me.

Is that the MEP?

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

There might be a maths teacher or a maths brain here or even anyone with an interest in this.

Do you thing if you took some who did say pass maths in the leaving, someone who is neither brilliant at maths nor someone who doesn't get maths.

Anyway they were given one to one tutoring by a fantastic and brilliant maths teacher, do you think after one year they would be able to do higher level maths and get say an A.

Yes. Definitely. A lot of "I'm bad at maths" is bad teaching and bad teachers passing on bad attitudes to the child.

Or in simple language do you think being very good at maths is a very special skill and no amount of one to one teaching by a fantastic teacher will make someone with average maths ability very good at maths or do you think it is something that can be learned?

It is definitely something that can be learned if you have a good teacher and are willing to try.

Frank Black

Because some of the concepts in higher level match are quite abstract, they can be difficult to convey to pupils - that's why having a good maths teacher for this subject is essential. I was lucky that I did have such a teacher. A lot of students are not so lucky.

The Big Red Button

looky loo wrote: »

I will always be grateful to Marian Harkin for the time she spent with me and maths was then a joy to me.

Oooh I think I went to your school!

Scanlas The 2nd

I got an A1 in honours maths and have a degree in maths and think most maths teachers are rubbish. I would be confident of getting anyone of average intelligence at least a C in honours maths by giving them 4 or 5 hours a week tuturing for 6th year.

VenusPlays

metaoblivia wrote: »

I agree with EuropeanSon. There are students who will have to work harder at understanding mathematical concepts, but there are students like that in any subject. Unless there is a pronounced learning disability, most people should be able to do higher level maths.

And as someone who runs a tutoring company, I can tell you that one-on-one tutoring from a brilliant math tutor would make a huge difference. Ideally, your tutor would be brilliant not just because of their subject knowledge, but also because they know how to present ideas and concepts in different ways, so that if you don't get it the first time, there's another method. In my personal experience, that's one of the key elements of learning math. In school, I always tested extremely high on mathematical concepts, and again and again I would be placed in upper level math courses that I struggled to succeed in. If I followed the teacher's method, I would barely pass. But if I had the freedom to use my own method, I would get top scores. I didn't always understand the methods I used - I mainly operated on pure instinct of what felt right and logical - but it got me A's, time and again. Had I had a math tutor, maybe I would have understood what I was doing and felt more comfortable with the subject.

I totally agree with this. In fifth year I was asked to tutor a third year who was failing honours maths. I showed her different ways of looking at the problems and went through the papers explaining what the questions actually meant, if they were worded a certain way, what they were looking for. She went from failing miserably to a C in her junior cert just a few weeks later. Imagine how well she would have done with a proper well-trained tutor instead of me, just another pupil!

LeeHoffmann

Do you think,

if someone were to get tutoring from boards members for one year, they could write a descriptive title for their thread...or is that a specific skill you have to be born with?.

mackeire

irish grinds is where its at!!

maudgonner

MarshellaSmith wrote: »

Our kids are very smart. Still most of them may fail Math tests conducted in Europe or in Asian countries. This is because of easy curriculum they are offered at school here. Parents need to take Math education in their hand, and offer curriculum like Saxon or Tutorteddy at an early age. Spread the word, and save America.

Did I go to sleep in Ireland and wake up in America by accident? Again!

kingtut

mariaalice wrote: »

Or in simple language

You saying we are all stupid ? :mad: My mum said I was a clever boy

pickarooney

I always found maths a fairly relaxing class, especially compared with the two hours of Flemish class on a Thursday afternoon. It was just double Dutch to me.

Dravokivich

strobe wrote: »

What? No one? That's top quality maths humour right there.

Bah! I'm going to bed.

Dear Strobe,

I myself was in bed at the time and only catching up now, please except my sincere apologies with regards to my delay in thanking your previous post.

-Kind Regards

strobe

Dravokivich wrote: »

Dear Strobe,

I myself was in bed at the time and only catching up now, please except my sincere apologies with regards to my delay in thanking your previous post.

-Kind Regards

You, Dravokivich sir, are an oddly named gentleman and a scholar and I shall fight any man or man sized woman that says differently.

Yours in unrelenting and disproportionate awe,

L.F.F.III

JuliusCaesar

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Bit of light reading on the subject for you all:
http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

Brilliant link.

Yes, I do think a lot of the problem is to do with the mind-set; but it's also with the way it is taught. People understand maths in different ways. I was cr*p at maths in school until I had some tutoring just before the LC. The tutor explained it in a way I could understand and I just took it and flew with it.
We had to do statistics in college, and I worked really hard at it, until I understood it. After that I enjoyed it and even gave tutorials myself.