Pension scam

Gerry.H

I was cold called and then deceived by a saleslady from an irish financial institution into signing up for what she said was a financial product that would allow me to legally transfer cash from my company account into this product tax free, then into my own private account. She said it was set up by Charlie McCreevy for people like me. This turned out to be a pension, unknown to me. Contributions were at a rate of 96% of my salary. there was a large sum in my company account at the time and that is how it was flagged in the first placed and brought to their attention by my bank.
I made it abundantly clear at the time that I had no interest in private pensions, that they did not work.
Needless to say, half of the fund has disappeared, many tens of thousands of euro (I am afraid to look for the exact amount) They even altered the risk rate upwards illegally. They have been fobbing my complaints off for years and refuse to acknowledge the problem. I have a full set of copies of the illegalities. The Fin Services Ombudsman cannot handle the problem because of strong evidence of fraud, and told me to contact the Garda Fraud squad.

I would really like to know if anyone has had a similar experience? Can you contact me if this has happened to you.

many thanks,


Gerry.H

themandan6611

so you did not sign anything in order to take out this product ?

the groutch

hate to be the one to give you the reality check, but sounds like you gave them the proverbial blank cheque to take as much of your money as they want.
You should definitely get the Gardai involved, but I'm not overly optimistic of a happy outcome

Gerry.H

themandan6611 wrote: »

so you did not sign anything in order to take out this product ?

Thank you for replying.
I did sign a set of papers. These were presented to me later by the pension company who said that i did sign up to a pension. However, at the original meeting the product was presented to me in the manner I have already described. The document i was presented with later was 19 pages long, most of it was blank and my signature did appear on it. There was a factfind section that was very basic with no useful information on it other than my name and the name of my company. I later discovered that I had signed up to a pension at the rate of €2,000 per month, 96% of my salary, and retirement at age 70. They later illegally raised the risk level from low to medium in the crudest way possible, scribbling out the original tick. There was an explicit instruction on page 2 of the contract that any changes must be initialled by the customer, me. That was not done. When I recently viewed the contract I discovered also that it had been torn apart. its original continuous form had been torn into separate A4 sheets. That contract is null and void but the vendors refuse to accept this. I had no reason to examine the details as I was not aware of the nature of the product. The form had been completed by others. The sole meeting at that time in 2006 lasted less than 40 minutes. That period consisted of introductory an explanation, banter, and supposedly being led through a pension product (which did not take place) completing a 19 page form, albeit most of it blank. I have no knowledge of such a large document. Forty minutes or less to take out a pension?? My knowledge of pensions (at that time) was scant, but I think such a complex transaction should take a little longer.
The company and bank i am dealing with is not a fly by night outfit but two of this state's major institutions. I just cannot believe such major institutions could behave like this. The amount of contributions in question is in the €50,000. Almost half of it had disappeared after two years. I shudder to guess how much is in there now.
In the course of many contacts I have had with them I get the impression that very many others in my position may have been scammed in a similar way.
Remember i signed up for this in the head SSIA days of 2006. People are in jail now for an awful lot less. I took the sales person at her word. She no longer is employed there but the company is refusing to deal.
I spoke by phone with a member of the Garda Fraud Squad. He was not very inspiring. He said that if they decided to prosecute it would be between the Gardai and the Finance company and it would not involve me.
I have been in touch with the Regulator and explained this to him, but he said that they cannot deal with individual members of the public. I asked him how could he turn away from incontravertible evidence of a crime and the possibility of there being other victims, but I was wasting my breath. I asked if I could be considered as a whistleblower but he said I would have to be an employee of theirs to be considered as such.
I have been around a number of state agencies, pensions board etc. All but one say they would like to help but..... One agency has taken up my case and exploring the possibility of a case against the bank under the data protection act, but that is only a possibility.
The bank are being equally unhelpful.

Cheers,


gerry

Gerry.H

the groutch wrote: »

hate to be the one to give you the reality check, but sounds like you gave them the proverbial blank cheque to take as much of your money as they want.
You should definitely get the Gardai involved, but I'm not overly optimistic of a happy outcome

Hi "grouch",
Thank you for the reply. I am inclined to agree with you.
It is still wrongdoing on a major scale though. I have met with quite a number of these people in both institutions. They are outwardly respectible middle class people with a courteous exterior, wearing business clothing. They do not wear hoods or sport piercings or carry weapons. They seem to have no trouble in supporting this shabby affair. They remind me of politicians.
The full extent of the situation unfolded slowly over the years. It was only Jan last when I discovered that the "pension" would continue until I was 70 yrs of age. That is after requesting a copy of the contract and they emailed same as a pdf. That is when I also discovered the tampering (which is a criminal offence). That tampering was responsible for the losses.
It is an uphill battle. I do intend to kick up as much of a fuss as possible and have not given up hope at all.
I wish I could disclose the names institutions involved. I bet you would be very surprised if you knew who they were. I will eventually hand this over to the Fraud Squad.

washiskin

Gerry, I really think your first port of call is the Financial Ombudsman -http://www.financialombudsman.ie/

You should talk to them as soon as possible for a fair and impartial hearing and they may decide you have a case.

Gerry.H

washiskin wrote: »

Gerry, I really think your first port of call is the Financial Ombudsman -http://www.financialombudsman.ie/

You should talk to them as soon as possible for a fair and impartial hearing and they may decide you have a case.

Hi Washiskin,

Many thanks for your reply.
I did send a full submission to the Financial Ombudsman and he rejected the whole submission on the grounds, quote:

"Please be advised that our suggestion that you bring this matter to the Gardai's attention still stands."

I thought he might have dealt with the other issues, but not so, he rejected the whole submission on foot of the most serious part of the complaint.

I have been in contact with quite a number of state agencies and their response is usually an expression of sympathy followed by a "but unfortunately....". I am quite cynical regarding these bodies. There are dozens of them and no one seems to be responsible for anything.
I had a go at the pensions office after i discovered (recently) that i was the trustee, but they said that they could not deal with this problem, they would only deal with problems between the company and me regarding admin or holding back contributions, ie, between me and myself.
The Regulator said they cant deal directly with the public and when i suggested i might be a whistleblower, they said no coz i would have to be an employee of the supplier of the pension.
I was watching a re-enactment of 9/11 on TV last week where the "Feds" and the local police were fighting with each other to take control of the investigation and thinking how in this kip it is the very opposite--no one wants to handle anything. I get a slight feeling that these organisations are there to confuse, not to help. They are completely tied up in red tape, and we are so indoctrinated that we dont even notice this. Maybe i should set up a tribunal.
For me unfortunately though there is the serious matter of them taking €50,000 from me.

My main motive for posting this stuff was my hope that I might hear from someone who had been similarly ripped off, or perhaps a disaffected ex-employee who could assist.

Cheers,


gerry

Pablo Sanchez

Hi Gerry,

I can understand your frustrations with this but i do have a few comments/queations.

If you have been contributing 96% of your salary to a personal pension plan what have you been living on? (ignoring the fact that you are not allowed to make contributions anywhere near this level and still get tax relief)

Has your complaint only become apparent since the value of most pensions has dropped considerably in the last few years, ie would you still have made your complaint if your pension had gone from 50 to 100k?

You mentioned that they switched your funds from low to medium risk, did you not sign off on the switch requests? Life companies wont allow you to make fund changes based on the word of a broker/financial advisor, a signed instruction from the customer is required.

When you received your annual statments did you notice that they had switched your funds and if so when did you raise your complaint prior to the market turmoil from 2008 to present.

There is nothing improper in setting up a pesnion arrangemnet in 40 minutes, in fact you can set up a PRSA with Rabo bank online these days.

While it is never nice to see your investment fall in value, this does not make pension funds a scam or a con.

allthedoyles

Gerry ,
Just because a document is torn in half and quartered don't mean that the contract is cancelled .

It is hard to believe that your pension scheme was altered from low to medium risk without your approval .

There are procedures for dealing with these type of complaints .

Keep a photo-copy of everything and exhaust all avenues with your trustees before bring your complaint to the next level.

As you said there are many offices out there that will listen to you .- these include :

1. Pensions Board
2. Office of the Pensions Ombudsman
3. Financial Services Ombudsman Bureau
4. Financial Regulator

the groutch

there lies an inherint problem in the Irish system, far too much bureacracy, and you have several different government bodies who are all going to pass the buck.

washiskin

I'm sorry you have been treated so shabbily by the ombudsman - I used to hear how he took up the case of incorrect products being sold to people and thought he could help you.

Maybe you should approach Primetime with the whole story including the brush offs you have had from the various agencies? It may sound mad but we are always being told we should seek out these so-called independent voices when we feel we have been shafted by banks etc.

Gerry.H

allthedoyles wrote: »

Gerry ,
Just because a document is torn in half and quartered don't mean that the contract is cancelled .

It is hard to believe that your pension scheme was altered from low to medium risk without your approval .

There are procedures for dealing with these type of complaints .

Keep a photo-copy of everything and exhaust all avenues with your trustees before bring your complaint to the next level.

As you said there are many offices out there that will listen to you .- these include :

1. Pensions Board
2. Office of the Pensions Ombudsman
3. Financial Services Ombudsman Bureau
4. Financial Regulator

Hi Allthedoyles,
Thank you for your suggestions.

I have approached the agencies you list. I will do my best to outline the results of my contacts with them. Please forgive me if I am a little confused. My wife died suddenly and I found her on the floor Sat June 11th, so I am not operating as well right now as i should. I have one goal though, and that is to pursue that organisation for what they have done to me, and their treating me like a piece of dirt on their shoe. There is more to this than money for me.

1. The pensions board. They will only handle trustee issues, which as it turns out would be disputes between me and myself as I recently discovered that I am the trustee.
2. Office of the Pensions ombudsman. I downloaded their form in June but got stuck on the question re who are the trustees. I requested that information from the pensions company, but they didnt reply. At that stage the tragedy happened. I can indeed pursue this avenue--thanks.
3. The Financial Services Ombudsman bureau. I made a detailed submission to this organisation but they rejected it on the grounds that the issues were too serious for them to handle and told me to take it to the Regulator and the Gardai.
4 The Regulator. I spoke with the regulator and the official said that they cannot deal with the public. I told him that it was wrong to ignore such strong evidence of wrongdoing but I was wasting my time. I asked him to consider me as a whistleblower but he said that I was not an employee of the pensions company so could not be considered as a whistle blower.
I spoke with the Garda Fraud Squad in Harcourt St (by phone). The guy i spoke to was quite negative, saying things like such a case would be between the gardai and the pensions company, and that juries can be unpredictable, etc etc (it was quite a long phonecall).

I am at present dealing with the Nat Consumer Agency, but only in connection with the data protection act vis a vis the bank.

Again, Many Thanks.


Gerry

Gerry.H

washiskin wrote: »

I'm sorry you have been treated so shabbily by the ombudsman - I used to hear how he took up the case of incorrect products being sold to people and thought he could help you.

Maybe you should approach Primetime with the whole story including the brush offs you have had from the various agencies? It may sound mad but we are always being told we should seek out these so-called independent voices when we feel we have been shafted by banks etc.

Sorry Allthedoyles, I forgot to deal with the rest of your reply.

At this stage i am suspicious of every aspect of this mess. Re the tearing apart of the contract, i can only surmise that this was done for a pupose. It would give them huge scope in replacing pages with different versions. However, I am unclear as to the legal implications of such action.

The alteration from low to medium did take place. I sighted the original at a meeting with them a few months ago. There was a tick on the "Low risk" box. It had been scribbled over and a tick placed in the medium risk box. This alone makes the contract null and void, and constitutes a criminal act. Other factors that i might discuss may only serve to fog over that very significant act.
When i pointed this problem out at our meeting they pointed out that further down in the form a box was ticked entitled "are you prepared to take some risk". i replied that low risk was some risk, but i was talking to closed minds.
The pension people furnished on request all documentation. I have all of this plus correspondce and emails. I think i have a strong case for court but i fear that in this country there are few protections in law for people like me, and i feel that i may be outgunned in court and the Gardai's record for pursuing white collar crime is not good. I forwarded my information to a journalist in a national daily newspaper who deals with financial issues. (I first spoke to him by phone. He agreed to have a look and forwarded me his email information). I do not want to contact him again coz I would feel like a pest.

There is a lot more to this affair that i did not include because there is so much to absorb in one go and the submission would begin to look like "War and Peace". I have no problem in disclosing any of it and can justify all of it because all of it is true and free of spin (though i do concede that withholding information could be construed as spin).

Correspondence from the other side (bank and pension organisation) however is littered with evasion, sophistry and nonesense that would insult anyones intelligence.

I will disclose further interesting information in due course.

Again, thanks,

gerry

amdublin

I am very sorry about your wife Gerry.

Did you not notice €2k leaving your account every month?
How long did this go on for?
Why did you not stop the direct debit after the first direct debit or second or third or fourth or tenth etc?

Gerry.H

Hi Washikins,

Yes, I would like to do that and will probably ready to do so shortly. I am still querying a number of points with Bank and Pension company. I do know that some of the media have been excellent in exposing so many scandals that we are all familiar with. My case would be significant if it was discovered that a lot of people had been treated in a similar way to me.
In that regard however, I fear that i might be unique in the sense that I have always been firmly hostile to private pensions and would be the last person on earth to take on a pension. In that form they just do not work!! They are ideal for the fat cats we are all familiar with. I am one of those ordinary people tipping along the bottom. I run a one man company (with a relative as co secretary). This came about when i lost my job in the eighties. I had a particular talent in my field and was known by people for that talent and that is how i earned my living. I also enjoyed the euphoria of the success of a number of high profile projects that i completed successfully on my own. I was very strong in the skills that i possessed but corresponding weak on the financials.


Cheers,

gerry

dudara

This isn't a post for Rip Off Ireland - better suited to Banking & Insurance & Pensions

dudara

Gerry.H

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

Hi Gerry,

I can understand your frustrations with this but i do have a few comments/queations.

If you have been contributing 96% of your salary to a personal pension plan what have you been living on? (ignoring the fact that you are not allowed to make contributions anywhere near this level and still get tax relief)

Has your complaint only become apparent since the value of most pensions has dropped considerably in the last few years, ie would you still have made your complaint if your pension had gone from 50 to 100k?

You mentioned that they switched your funds from low to medium risk, did you not sign off on the switch requests? Life companies wont allow you to make fund changes based on the word of a broker/financial advisor, a signed instruction from the customer is required.

When you received your annual statments did you notice that they had switched your funds and if so when did you raise your complaint prior to the market turmoil from 2008 to present.

There is nothing improper in setting up a pesnion arrangemnet in 40 minutes, in fact you can set up a PRSA with Rabo bank online these days.

While it is never nice to see your investment fall in value, this does not make pension funds a scam or a con.

Hi Pablo Sanchez,

thank you for your reply. I also appreciate your questioning of some of my motives. This affair is so complex that i was unable to include all of the information at one go. There are the issues you raise that i did not cover at the outset, there are other issues too that require explaining and i will do so in due course and I will do so in complete honesty with the truth as i know it.

anyway, here goes:
I run a small company with me as the only worker. My wife and I raised a family of five children and always felt very insecure after my experiences during the first oil crisis in the seventies. We lived frugally and I carefully saved for a rainy day. In the early 2000's the last of our children left home. My mortgage commitments were winding down. By the mid 2000's I truly feared a recession. I shopped in Aldi/Lidl long before it became fashionable. I do not drink or smoke (If the banks and politicians had taken a leaf out of my book, the country would not be in crisis now and families with young children would not be facing Armageddon. My approach was correct theirs wasnt. It annoys me that the B*****ds did eventually get me). My company account was "Cash rich" as the pension saleslady described it (hence the data protection issue with the bank). I was operating in a state of fear. I could describe that in detail but again it would only serve to raise further issues (all of which i can answer). Anyway, this is how i was targeted by the bank/pension company. You must remember that I was lied to by the pensions agent to the extent that i didnt know that she signed me up to a pension. I was not aware at the time of the 96%, or the retirement age of 70, or the locked in nature of contributions, or the risk she applied to me. I was 59 years old at that time in 2006. I recently worked out that if i were to retire at 70 and draw a pension at the rate of contribution, i would be 83 years old before i would receive back my contributions alone. This ignores of course the inept fund managers, the huge fees they extract, inflation, risk for no return, and other stuff that i might not even be aware of.
Re tax relief, That is a question for the pension company not me. I had no idea of pension fundamentals and bear in mind too that I was not even aware that it was a pension, it was presented to me as a straightforward, legal, tax avoidance vehicle. If you think such vehicles are inappropriate then the designers of the product are the ones responsible, not me. However, the product did not even exist. it was a lie.
Surely the details of the contract as set out above will support my assertion. I would have to be raving mad to sign up to it. I do not think i will live to age 70 and do not wish to do so (again, i can explain if required).
My complaint was indeed triggered by the falls in 2008. It only slowly began to dawn on me what i had signed up to. My complaint round about then led to a drip feed of information over the years to the realisation that i was mixed up in turned out to be a pandora's box.

You point out that there would be paperwork, statements in the post etc. That is true. However, there were also mounds of junk mail. I had a traumatic experience in 1987. this led to an extreme reluctance to open correspondence. My utilities were paid by direct debit and i never opened any of that mail, statements, etc. This sounds unlikely but it is true. I have the evidence in mounds of mail here in boxes. One may think serves you right then, but that does not give these institutions the right to do these things to me.
Issues such as statements etc come into play after the event.

They did elevate the risk level without my knowledge. It happened. I have the proof in hard copy. They committed a crime. That fact is incontrovertible. What they are now engaged in is a cover-up. I feel that immediately after the product was set up they had to make this change to make the projections even vaguely plausible. They could not get my endorsement coz they knew full well that they had deceived me, and they probably didnt foresee that this act would ever be discovered, so why worry (morality?--forget it).

I plan to involve the directors of both institutions by registered letter in the hope that they can be held accountable if they refuse to act. I have already requested this at the bank, but the manager refuses to do this. She told me also that she has been forbidden by her legal department from discussing the problem with me.

No broker is involved.

I am the only one with 100% proof of the deception, because I was present when it happened and i remember what i was told. I would hope that the parameters of the contract would support this. All it succeeded in doing was to empty my bank account. There was not a hope in hell of it carrying on to age 70. The other problem, the tampering is there in black and white.

As an incidental, i found out in recent weeks from the pensions board that my "pension" had been registered by a completely different pension company. At this stage i am immune to surprises. On further investigation I discovered that this pension company is only a trading front for this third company. They both have the same board of directors, shuffled around. Its name is identical to the Bank with the exception of the last word which is placed underneath in a less significant font. Their prominent logo is identical to the bank's logo in every way, it is the same logo. At the time of the contract I was under the impression that i was dealing with my bank. The meeting took place in my Bank.

Many thanks again Pablo. Sorry the text is so long. I hope it goes some way to explain your queries. Please consider too that i am an ordinary person with a skill in one discipline only, electronics. I was at the time heavily involved in design projects. These were my principle focus. All were a success. I admit that my concentration in these financial shenanigans was less than diligent, to put it mildly, i will concede that, but it does not justify the actions of these slick operators to do these things to people. I did not seek out any of their products, they cold called me, lured me in to meeting them, deceived me, set up an inappropriate product that could never serve me in any way. The bank and their cronies devised a scheme to empty my account into their coffers. They may have a cynical knowledge of the weakness of the ordinary person when it comes to financials and how we can be so easily duped, and then at the stage when the game is up, to be tied up so tightly in red tape that we are helpless. as it is now, they have many tens of thousands of euro that is mine, and they know what they have done. They see nothing wrong in what they did, and have no intention of returning their ill gotten gains. The people refusing to deal with this should spend long periods in jail. They are not stupid. They know what they have done.

Cheers,


Gerry

Gerry.H

amdublin wrote: »

I am very sorry about your wife Gerry.

Did you not notice €2k leaving your account every month?
How long did this go on for?
Why did you not stop the direct debit after the first direct debit or second or third or fourth or tenth etc?

Hi Amdublin,

I was fine with the D/Ds coming from my account because I had been deceived into thinking that I was signed up to a tax avoidance product. I was told it was legal and i was told that it was set up by Charlie McCreevy for people "just like me". I was told that my company account was cash rich and that this was unusual.
I had no idea that I had been signed up to a pension. I believed what i was told at the bank; back in 2006 the banks had not been exposed as the dysfunctional entities that they are; and taking what i was told at face value, I had no reason to feel other than pleased with the transaction. It took a long time for reality to kick in, and it kicked in slowly.

I have to say, with risk of looking unfairly for sympathy, that while all of this was happening my dearest eldest son was involved in a bad marriage to a Chinese national in Southampton. David was a law graduate and doing well. He was pitilessly ground down and had a breakdown. he was fine again for some time. the abuse continued. he was diagnosed as Bipolar (no doubt an existing weakness, exacerbated by what he was enduring). in March 2009 his life ended. He was flown home and buried in Fingal cemetery. I am barely existing and cannot even afford a gravestone. his mother is now resting next to him. One of my other sons has volunteered to pay for a headstone. When banks play about with people the consequences can be serious. I dont suppose they even care though. Its all down to money, isnt it? nothing else matters.
I hesitate to include such details as they are so unbelievable. The trauma of the passing of my wife does not even begin to compare to the passing of David. He was 35 years old, good fun and very kind.
That was the mindset of a comment i made in a post elsewhere when i said that i did not wish to live to age 70. However, i plan to sort out these bank people first. I bet you would be very surprised if you knew the identity of these organisations, but the rules of this site forbid me (understandably) from identifying them.

Regards,


Gerry

Gerry.H

Hi Dudara,

I am new to boards.ie and i am not fully up to speed in its use.

I did put banking as another thread in that section, so it may be there too, but i am not sure of that.

I did feel that Rip-off is probably a euphamism to describe what this Bank did.

I would dearly love to hear from even one other who had this same think done to them.

Cheers,


Gerry

Gerry.H

Hi again amdublin,

i should have pointed out that i did eventually stop the D/Ds, but at that stage €50,000 had been taken. Would you believe that in my confusion i actually did not initially cut the D/Ds, but reduced them to €200 a month. The situation was so confusing, i was being lied to and cajoled, like for instance, at the time they were telling me that losses were cyclical and look to the long term. i didnt realise even then that such advice was academic and the account was being rapidly drained and heading for the buffers. I was not thinking properly and the only goal of the pension people was to extract the maximum.

it was a mixed up messy and pernicious affair, and people would need to be very careful when dealing with these people. They are dangerous. I would even advocate avoiding pensions at all cost coz of the rapacious behaviour of these people

Cheers,


gerry

BuffyBot

Some things really stink here, but either way what you need is proper legal advice, not observations from a message board.

Go see a solicitor. Boards.ie is great for somethings, but somethings lie beyond it's scope.