The fixation with joining Luas lines

Slideshowbob

I don't get the necessity to join them.

To take an extreme example - Are people likely to want to get a tram from Tallaght to sandyford?

Isn't there a 75 bus for that?

Is it all worth the cost and disturbance just to join two lines that happen to be close?

As I alluded to before on boards, RPA have an agenda to push these projects to keep all their jobs regardless of certain elements

Tragedy

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I don't get the necessity to join them.

Because it will make orbital transport around dublin far easier.

To take an extreme example - Are people likely to want to get a tram from Tallaght to sandyford?

Yes, there was even a thread this week about someone working in Sandyford looking to buy in Tallaght and asking about transport links. However, it's more about people from Stillorgan getting to St James, as an example.

Isn't there a 75 bus for that?

The 75 serves a much smaller catchment area than the two Luas lines.

Is it all worth the cost and disturbance just to join two lines that happen to be close?

Yes

As I alluded to before on boards, RPA have an agenda to push these projects to keep all their jobs regardless of certain elements

Immaterial. Transport in Dublin is great for getting in to and out of the City Centre, for any other kind of journey you're screwed unless you live on a few poorly served bus routes.

Judgement Day

+1

The joining of the two lines is a total nonsense and it's not like there's going to be through running and as you say the amount of people who will want to take the long way to Tallaght etc.will be very few. The whole idea is like something a railway modeller would think up rather than a transport planner. As I'm sicking of saying, linking the Green Line to Pearse/Tara Street and Connolly would serve a purpose and benefit IE as well as the Luas not to mention the public but linking the two Luas lines in the vicinity of O'Connell Street will benefit few except the Red Line junkies who will have more patrons to hassle. Is anybody listening - NO!

corktina

+2

i always thought it was a waste of resources to join these lines up just for the sake of it, although I suppose there would be a possible econmy in shutting one workshop down.

these lines raison etre surely is to facilitate movement to and from the City, not to cross it.

Slideshowbob

Tragedy wrote: »

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I don't get the necessity to join them.

Because it will make orbital transport around dublin far easier.

It won't be an orbital route though ...

To take an extreme example - Are people likely to want to get a tram from Tallaght to sandyford?

Yes, there was even a thread this week about someone working in Sandyford looking to buy in Tallaght and asking about transport links. However, it's more about people from Stillorgan getting to St James, as an example.

Solid evidence there ...

Isn't there a 75 bus for that?

The 75 serves a much smaller catchment area than the two Luas lines.

Einstein ... Did u go to the college for stating thebleeding obvious

Is it all worth the cost and disturbance just to join two lines that happen to be close?

Yes

Please expand to prove ur hypothesis

As I alluded to before on boards, RPA have an agenda to push these projects to keep all their jobs regardless of certain elements

Immaterial. Transport in Dublin is great for getting in to and out of the City Centre, for any other kind of journey you're screwed unless you live on a few poorly served bus routes.

Not immaterial. The RPA are pushing their agenda to save their jobs. They should lobby on such matters in their posititiob as they stand to benefit

etchyed

Slideshowbob wrote: »

To take an extreme example

Why?

L1011

The linking isn't for people to go from Sandyford to Tallaght, its for people to go from, say, Connolly to Sandyford; Heuston to Dundrum, etc, etc

Also, could you please quote properly, its nearly impossible to read your replies.

Victor

Slideshowbob wrote: »

As I alluded to before on boards, RPA have an agenda to push these projects to keep all their jobs regardless of certain elements

I think you have that the wrong way around - it is their job to build the projects as instructed by government. Of course, you can just as easily say those opposing the projects typically have their own pockets in mind.

Every change from one tram/bus/train to another means you lose 50% of your customer base. If Luas was connected with direct services from say Sandyford to Red Cow X% of passengers would use tram. However, as direct services aren't proposed only 0.5X% will do it. The current situation is that only half again, i.e. 0.25X% will use the tram as changes need to be made at St. Stephen's Green and Abbey Street. Instead, a proportion of people will drive instead, creating congestion for other people and costing them money.

AngryLips

Wow, an entire thread of contributions from people complaining that the two Luas line shouldn't be connected. This chorus was tired the first time but let's hear it again. My favorite parts are when AA's Conor Faughnan and the folk at SIMI chime in.

Red Alert

You also avoid duplication of maintenance and can transfer trams just by driving them over to the other side.

CIE

Red Alert wrote: »

You also avoid duplication of maintenance and can transfer trams just by driving them over to the other side

Hmm. Same thing could have been done even better by not creating the RPA and building both lines as DART, possibly underground in the city centre and elevating in the Naas Road median; in both cases, chances for accidents with road vehicles minimised to just about eliminated. (cue Interconnector "DART Underground" fans)

LXFlyer

Red Alert wrote: »

You also avoid duplication of maintenance and can transfer trams just by driving them over to the other side.

You're still going to require two depots.

Frankly the number of times trams have been switched from one line to the other (apart from the permanent switch of the 4xxx series) is in single figures.

I wouldn't see that as a justification for joining the lines up.

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

Slideshowbob wrote: »

As I alluded to before on boards, RPA have an agenda to push these projects to keep all their jobs regardless of certain elements

I think you have that the wrong way around - it is their job to build the projects as instructed by government. Of course, you can just as easily say those opposing the projects typically have their own pockets in mind.

Every change from one tram/bus/train to another means you lose 50% of your customer base. If Luas was connected with direct services from say Sandyford to Red Cow X% of passengers would use tram. However, as direct services aren't proposed only 0.5X% will do it. The current situation is that only half again, i.e. 0.25X% will use the tram as changes need to be made at St. Stephen's Green and Abbey Street. Instead, a proportion of people will drive instead, creating congestion for other people and costing them money.

Correct, but the arrival of the integrated smartcard will change that making switching from LUAS to bus much easier.

Judgement Day

CIE wrote: »

Hmm. Same thing could have been done even better by not creating the RPA and building both lines as DART, possibly underground in the city centre and elevating in the Naas Road median; in both cases, chances for accidents with road vehicles minimised to just about eliminated. (cue Interconnector "DART Underground" fans)

I think that anybody living along on the Luas lines has a far better frequency of service than that could ever be offered by a heavy rail DART type operation. If I had to move back to Dublin and had to choose which route to live along it wouldn't be the DART.

The point about joining the two lines to reduce the number of maintenance depots is daft as the fleet is now so large as to justify the two depots. DART Underground was an engineer's wet dream and will probably never happen now - thankfully.

Carawaystick

Why not get some double ended buses like used for transferring at airports? Paint em the same as the trams and have them running on the same frequency or higher as the trams

HivemindXX

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Not immaterial. The RPA are pushing their agenda to save their jobs. They should lobby on such matters in their posititiob as they stand to benefit

You're wrong. It is immaterial. Even if, as you claim, they only want to do this to save their jobs it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is whether it is a good idea. Meaning good return (in the shape of convenience for population) on investment.

As has already been pointed out the Luas lines don't operate an express service straight to Sandyford / Tallaght. They serve a large catchment area and there are plenty of people who would be well served by connecting them. If you were genuinely interested you could find plenty of posts on boards from people who work in Tallaght and want to live somewhere long the green line. It would also mean that the Green line is connected to a mainline rail station.

To be honest it's farcical that they are not joined up and I have a hard time believing anyone doesn't think it would be better if they were. The only sensible question is whether this is worth doing with the very limited amount of money available for transport projects at the moment or if it should be shelved so that other things can go ahead.

LXFlyer

Or why not just use the high frequency bus service that already exists?

-Chris-

lxflyer wrote: »

Or why not just use the high frequency bus service that already exists?

If I want to get from Sandyford to the IFSC or the O2, can that be done with existing public transport?

LXFlyer

HivemindXX wrote: »

You're wrong. It is immaterial. Even if, as you claim, they only want to do this to save their jobs it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is whether it is a good idea. Meaning good return (in the shape of convenience for population) on investment.

As has already been pointed out the Luas lines don't operate an express service straight to Sandyford / Tallaght. They serve a large catchment area and there are plenty of people who would be well served by connecting them. If you were genuinely interested you could find plenty of posts on boards from people who work in Tallaght and want to live somewhere long the green line. It would also mean that the Green line is connected to a mainline rail station.

To be honest it's farcical that they are not joined up and I have a hard time believing anyone doesn't think it would be better if they were. The only sensible question is whether this is worth doing with the very limited amount of money available for transport projects at the moment or if it should be shelved so that other things can go ahead.

There is an additional orbital route (the 175) to be introduced as part of the Dublin Bus Network Direct project which will link Tallaght with Dundrum, Sandyford, Stillorgan and Dun Laoghaire, while the 75 will be re-routed to take a more direct route also.

The 17 and 18 both connect the inner end of the red line with the green line.

I have to concur with the dissenters here - the lines effectively will not be joined up as they will merely cross one another. Trams will not operate from one to the other. People will still have to switch trams and walk between stops to connect.

Given that within months we will have an integrated pay as you go smartcard that will facilitate bus/rail/tram travel I fail to see what real benefit this link will give as there is already an excellent cross city bus service linking St Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street and the 145 links up with Heuston (and is indeed faster than the tram is between O'Connell Street and Heuston).

-Chris-

lxflyer wrote: »

I have to concur with the dissenters here - the lines effectively will not be joined up as they will merely cross one another. Trams will not operate from one to the other. People will still have to switch trams and walk between stops to connect.

My take on that would be that, as long as they share a stop as they cross paths, I'd be ok with getting off one Luas and waiting for the next one (like you'd do in the Metro). Based on current frequency and predictability I wouldn't consider that to be an imposition at all.

LXFlyer

-Chris- wrote: »

If I want to get from Sandyford to the IFSC or the O2, can that be done with existing public transport?

Sandyford to IFSC: LUAS or route 11 to St Stephen's Green and then 128 to Busaras.

To the O2 - Route 11 to Westmoreland Street - walk to Bachelors Walk and then route 151.

LXFlyer

-Chris- wrote: »

My take on that would be that, as long as they share a stop as they cross paths, I'd be ok with getting off one Luas and waiting for the next one (like you'd do in the Metro). Based on current frequency and predictability I wouldn't consider that to be an imposition at all.

My point is, is it money well spent given the current economic climate and with the integrated ticketing most journeys could be done by switching to a bus at SSG?

I don't honestly think so. The money could be far better spent on other transport projects.

Tragedy

The 75 and 175 mostly serve people who aren't on either Luas line. Me and my brother both worked somewhere on the Red Line(Crumlin), lived beside the Green Line(Stillorgan) and ended up driving the M50 to Tallaght and going through D6W following the 150 route until it got to the hospital.

People so far seem to be obtusely ignoring the fact that both the green and red line luas stops in between Sandyford/Tallaght and town, and both takes on and lets off passengers. That means I could potentially go from Ranelagh to Blackhall, Crumlin to Milltown etc etc.

The only viable public transport option for us was:
Walk 10 minutes to Luas Stillorgan stop and wait between 0 and 10 minutes for a Luas. Take said luas in to Stephens Green. Walk 10 minutes to Dame Street, and wait another 0-10 minutes for a 150, ride the 150 to work.

If the Luas lines were connected, I could have rode one tram all the way to town, gotten out, stood there and waited for another tram and been on my way - cutting out the sheer bloody effort and hassle of pissing about town.

As it was, we both worked different shifts so two cars were driving from one stop on the luas green line to near another stop on the luas red line.

Of course, interconnecting is stupid, no-one would use it as there's already one bus from Tallaght to Sandyford and that clearly solves all the orbital problems.

n97 mini

Joined Luas lines = integrated system = simple system

If people can find their way around easily they'll use the system.

There are Luas maps all over the place. I've yet to see a Dublin Bus map anywhere apart from the internet.....

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Sandyford to IFSC: LUAS or route 11 to St Stephen's Green and then 128 to Busaras.

To the O2 - Route 11 to Westmoreland Street - walk to Bachelors Walk and then route 151.

Without you, posting here on boards.ie, how would Joe Bloggs figure that out.

I know I'd post on boards.ie and wait for a reply... but that's not practical if I need to go now. Whereas I can always consult the Luas map at any of the stops.

bk

I'm hearing that the integrated tickets won't be as integrated as we would like them to be and will end up just holding multiple tickets on them like we have today, without much advantage to people using multimodal transport.

I wonder if it would be better to use the 300 million to help subsidise the rollout of true integrated ticketing, with proper reductions for people using multiple modes of transport and reduction in smart card ticket prices.

I wonder what would happen if a €1 flat smart card fare (€3 cash) was introduced on Dublin Bus and true daily cap when using LUAS/DART, etc.

I'd expect a massive increase in the use of public transport. Yes it would require an increase in the subsidies to DB, etc. but I wonder if we could benefit from it much more then spending 300 million on LUAS BXD?

Of course you wouldn't spend the 300 million just on subsidies, you would also spend it on other projects like extending Dublin Bikes scheme, removing bottlenecks like the Cat & Cage, more bus gates, etc.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Joined Luas lines = integrated system = simple system

If people can find their way around easily they'll use the system.

There are Luas maps all over the place. I've yet to see a Dublin Bus map anywhere apart from the internet.....

Given the entire network is changing virtually every 2 weeks at the moment a map would be rendered useless.

When the network review is complete in the winter I would imagine we will see a major push in terms of delivering new spider maps on street and online.

LXFlyer

Tragedy wrote: »

The 75 and 175 mostly serve people who aren't on either Luas line. Me and my brother both worked somewhere on the Red Line(Crumlin), lived beside the Green Line(Stillorgan) and ended up driving the M50 to Tallaght and going through D6W following the 150 route until it got to the hospital.

People so far seem to be obtusely ignoring the fact that both the green and red line luas stops in between Sandyford/Tallaght and town, and both takes on and lets off passengers. That means I could potentially go from Ranelagh to Blackhall, Crumlin to Milltown etc etc.

The only viable public transport option for us was:
Walk 10 minutes to Luas Stillorgan stop and wait between 0 and 10 minutes for a Luas. Take said luas in to Stephens Green. Walk 10 minutes to Dame Street, and wait another 0-10 minutes for a 150, ride the 150 to work.

If the Luas lines were connected, I could have rode one tram all the way to town, gotten out, stood there and waited for another tram and been on my way - cutting out the sheer bloody effort and hassle of pissing about town.

As it was, we both worked different shifts so two cars were driving from one stop on the luas green line to near another stop on the luas red line.

Of course, interconnecting is stupid, no-one would use it as there's already one bus from Tallaght to Sandyford and that clearly solves all the orbital problems.

Both the 17 and 18 connect Crumlin with the LUAS green line.

No need to go to the city centre at all. The rollout of RTPI for the bus service will make that part of the journey far easier also.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Without you, posting here on boards.ie, how would Joe Bloggs figure that out.

I know I'd post on boards.ie and wait for a reply... but that's not practical if I need to go now. Whereas I can always consult the Luas map at any of the stops.

Use the Dublin Bus journey planner or www.hittheroad.ie

There will be an NTA journey planner rolled out also - that is being worked on as we speak.

The point is that the bus network is going through a massive overhaul, in terms of network design, timetable integration, RTPI rollout, plus there is the integrated smartcard being rolled out also.

All of this means that the bus service should be far more attractive when these are completed, meaning that the need for this flight of fancy is far less important.

LXFlyer

-Chris- wrote: »

If I want to get from Sandyford to the IFSC or the O2, can that be done with existing public transport?

Also the 11 and LUAS both connect into the 74 and 74a at St Stephen's Green that will take you to North Wall Quay beside Macken Street Bridge.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I'm hearing that the integrated tickets won't be as integrated as we would like them to be and will end up just holding multiple tickets on them like we have today, without much advantage to people using multimodal transport.

I wonder if it would be better to use the 300 million to help subsidise the rollout of true integrated ticketing, with proper reductions for people using multiple modes of transport and reduction in smart card ticket prices.

I wonder what would happen if a €1 flat smart card fare (€3 cash) was introduced on Dublin Bus and true daily cap when using LUAS/DART, etc.

I'd expect a massive increase in the use of public transport. Yes it would require an increase in the subsidies to DB, etc. but I wonder if we could benefit from it much more then spending 300 million on LUAS BXD?

Of course you wouldn't spend the 300 million just on subsidies, you would also spend it on other projects like extending Dublin Bikes scheme, removing bottlenecks like the Cat & Cage, more bus gates, etc.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

The full existing range of pre-paid tickets will still be there (daily/weekly/monthly/annual single-mode and multi-mode), and will be capable of being loaded onto the card - therefore you won't need multiple tickets.

The pay-as-you-go element will be the smart element, applying a discount to multi-mode single journeys. There will I believe be a daily cap applied, and potentially a longer one, thereby restricting the maximum cost to the appropriate 1 day ticket price or something similar.

The one imponderable is what the DB fare structure is going to be post-introduction, and whether this will require tagging on and off.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

The pay-as-you-go element will be the smart element, applying a discount to multi-mode single journeys. There will I believe be a daily cap applied, and potentially a longer one, thereby restricting the maximum cost to the appropriate 1 day ticket price or something similar.

I recently heard that this isn't going to happen, at least initially, that it will just carry the existing tickets and a pre pay purse with no integration between multiple modes.

I really hope I'm wrong and you are right.

lxflyer wrote: »

The one imponderable is what the DB fare structure is going to be post-introduction, and whether this will require tagging on and off.

Yup.

One thing that surprises me is that they don't roll it out on Cork City bus service as a trial. Cork City already has a flat fare, so it would be ideal to try it out there.

steve-o

Tragedy wrote: »

If the Luas lines were connected, I could have rode one tram all the way to town, gotten out, stood there and waited for another tram and been on my way

You'd be stood there waiting a long time. There will be no integrated stops. If you want to change from Green to Red, you'll need to walk a short distance between stops, crossing O'Connell / Marlborough Street and Abbey Street in the process.

Weyhey

lxflyer wrote: »

Both the 17 and 18 connect Crumlin with the LUAS green line.

No need to go to the city centre at all. The rollout of RTPI for the bus service will make that part of the journey far easier also.

17 and 18 buses only go to certain parts of Crumlin and not along the Crumlin Road. Also if you ever had the experience of using these buses you would know the nightmare involved, they are few and fare between, go a long and complex route and often do not turn up.

I would also like to see the two luas lines joined up. Many times I would like to go Tallaght or Inchicore or Heuston to Stephens Green or Ranelagh or Kilmacud.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

The full existing range of pre-paid tickets will still be there (daily/weekly/monthly/annual single-mode and multi-mode), and will be capable of being loaded onto the card - therefore you won't need multiple tickets.

The pay-as-you-go element will be the smart element, applying a discount to multi-mode single journeys. There will I believe be a daily cap applied, and potentially a longer one, thereby restricting the maximum cost to the appropriate 1 day ticket price or something similar.

The one imponderable is what the DB fare structure is going to be post-introduction, and whether this will require tagging on and off.

My understanding curently,is that progress is slower than was anticipated on the "fully" integrated element of the LEAP card.

There appears to be an significant issue now emerging over the DB fare Structure post LEAP,as the company is now,more than ever,dependant on its ticket revenue as opposed to the shrinking "Subvention".

Therefore It may well,as bk sez,see the initial introduction of a basic LEAP functionality,with the remainder to follow as the difficulties are sorted.

I fervently hope this scenario can be avoided,but given the absolute shambles which the greater project descended into I would not be surprised.

All of the issues we are debating now should have been the very first to be sorted,long before we had Logo's,Branding or anything else.
Instead in true modern Irish Administrative fashion,we started at the end and worked back.

At this point in time it's all about holding one's breath and crossing one's digits :eek:

LXFlyer

Weyhey wrote: »

17 and 18 buses only go to certain parts of Crumlin and not along the Crumlin Road. Also if you ever had the experience of using these buses you would know the nightmare involved, they are few and fare between, go a long and complex route and often do not turn up.

I would also like to see the two luas lines joined up. Many times I would like to go Tallaght or Inchicore or Heuston to Stephens Green or Ranelagh or Kilmacud.

LUAS does not serve Crumlin Road at all. Both the 17 and 18 pass either end of it, so I don't see what your point is? I'm a regular 17 user, and rarely have any problems using it.

As for going to St Stephen's Green, the 50, 56a, 77/a all leave you at Dame Street a 7-8 minute walk from St Stephen's Green already, or from where you can take a bus to Aungier Street which is even closer (9, 16, 83, 122).

The 18 directly links Crumlin with Ranelagh. If it's not close enough - the 122, 123 will link Drimnagh with it and the 50, 77, 151 all connect it with the lowere end of the Crumlin Road.

As I've said several times the continued rollout of the Network Direct project with standard interval departures, and the RTPI rollout on-street, online and by text should make life far easier using the orbital routes.

But does any of that justify the amount of money being spent on this proposal and the disruption that will be caused particularly to the bus routes while there are viable alternatives?

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

My understanding curently,is that progress is slower than was anticipated on the "fully" integrated element of the LEAP card.

There appears to be an significant issue now emerging over the DB fare Structure post LEAP,as the company is now,more than ever,dependant on its ticket revenue as opposed to the shrinking "Subvention".

Therefore It may well,as bk sez,see the initial introduction of a basic LEAP functionality,with the remainder to follow as the difficulties are sorted.

I fervently hope this scenario can be avoided,but given the absolute shambles which the greater project descended into I would not be surprised.

All of the issues we are debating now should have been the very first to be sorted,long before we had Logo's,Branding or anything else.
Instead in true modern Irish Administrative fashion,we started at the end and worked back.

At this point in time it's all about holding one's breath and crossing one's digits :eek:

At long last this penny seems to be dropping with the powers that be. An urban bus service costs money and needs funding - amazing that penny only seems to be dropping now?

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

At long last this penny seems to be dropping with the powers that be. An urban bus service costs money and needs funding - amazing that penny only seems to be dropping now?

You got it in one Lxflyer...the point being that it is a Penny that's dropping.....those Powers that Be are only now gearing up for the Euro.....:D

AngryLips

AlekSmart wrote: »

You got it in one Lxflyer...the point being that it is a Penny that's dropping.....those Powers that Be are only now gearing up for the Euro.....:D

Until Leap is introduced I hope the pennies that are dropping comprise the exact fare.

Slideshowbob

HivemindXX wrote: »

You're wrong. It is immaterial. Even if, as you claim, they only want to do this to save their jobs it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is whether it is a good idea. Meaning good return (in the shape of convenience for population) on investment.

Can you please cite where I can obtain hard facts that the joining would provide a "good return (in the shape of convenience for population) on investment" ?

PS - I'd be interested on how "the shape of convenience for population" is measured - again if you have references for matrices would be much appreciated.

AngryLips

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Can you please cite where I can obtain hard facts that the joining would provide a "good return (in the shape of convenience for population) on investment" ?

PS - I'd be interested on how "the shape of convenience for population" is measured - again if you have references for matrices would be much appreciated.

The argument for connectivity is well proven as a formula successfully used by all of the finest urban public transport networks across many of world leading cities. Just how you can make a case against it is totally beyond me.

You only need to see how ridership figures on London's East London line went through the roof after it was connected into the London Overground network to know that connecting Luas Green and Red lines makes sense in this context. The assumption here that ridership figures will increase at a factor exceeding the length of the extension proposed is sound. It's your assumption that ridership figures that will remain static that is totally flawed. The fact that all the detractors here have failed to provide any example of precedent where connectivity has not resulted in increase usage speaks for itself really.

Slideshowbob

AngryLips wrote: »

The argument for connectivity is well proven as a formula successfully used by all of the finest urban public transport networks across many of world leading cities. Just how you can make a case against it is totally beyond me.

You only need to see how ridership figures on London's East London line went through the roof after it was connected into the London Overground network to know that connecting Luas Green and Red lines makes sense in this context. The assumption here that ridership figures will increase at a factor exceeding the length of the extension proposed is sound. It's your assumption that ridership figures that will remain static that is totally flawed. The fact that all the detractors here have failed to provide any example of precedent where connectivity has not resulted in increase usage speaks for itself really.

Surely any "well proven formula" (which you can't refer to anyway!) is dependent on the city it must correlate with!?!

Anyway - to progress matters, see attached diagram

Black lines reflect existing Luas lines

Blue €'s with circles reflect combined distubance costs and land costs.

Red lines suggest roughly some options for connectivity.

It's obvious to me!!

Can you post a link to the London East Line map to reflect the connectivity it achieved and we can compare?

I'm not saying linking in the city is wrong, I'm just saying protagonists of it have not yet made a convincing argument ...... waiting to be proved wrong ...

runway16

I simply cannot Believe we are having this debate - AGAIN!

It because of this endless moaning, contradicting, rehashing, and failure to even examine how real public transport systems work in other countries, that we have been left with nothing after going through 20 years of unprecedented national wealth.

It is stunning that people still can't grasp the need for linked transport lines, and throw up the example of someone travelling from one line terminus to the other line terminus as a excuse, with no mention of the many that will use the link to travel between intermediate stations.

So how about we just finally stop talking about it, stop picking every proposal to bits and just bloody build something!

CIE

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think that anybody living along on the Luas lines has a far better frequency of service than that could ever be offered by a heavy rail DART type operation. If I had to move back to Dublin and had to choose which route to live along it wouldn't be the DART.

The point about joining the two lines to reduce the number of maintenance depots is daft as the fleet is now so large as to justify the two depots. DART Underground was an engineer's wet dream and will probably never happen now - thankfully.

You sure about that? DART at its peak matched Luas at 5-minute frequencies (3-4 minute frequencies are meaningless because you're running more vehicles with lower capacity at lower average speeds, and that means not only higher operating costs but also the possibility of increased maintenance costs both for rolling stock and infrastructure). The DART has far higher passenger capacity than Luas could ever offer (unless of course the RPA had bought Citadis trams with actual Scharfenberg couplers, which are indeed available for those trams; but once you do that, you might be losing a bit of power with those lower-voltage wires and all), and will always have a higher average speed than Luas. The disadvantage of cutting off the Harcourt Street Line from the general railway network in perpetuity removes the flexibility that would have been there if it had been rebuilt as DART. Building tramways in the city centre reduces road capacity and increases the amount of money lost due to road congestion (this runs in the billions); it also increases danger to pedestrians who have to cross live tram tracks (a danger nonexistent with heavy railways where you have overpasses and underpasses and such); the average speed will always be lower due to the lack of modal separation.

I do agree that the point about depot consolidation is moot; however, there would be the matter of being able to easily move fleets between depots. I also agree about the matter of "DART underground", unless it's something that makes sense (e.g. joining the Harcourt Street Line with the Broadstone Line to create a Maynooth-Bray DART line that stops at the GPO; far more useful than Luas between Brides Glen and Broombridge...is it really too late to reverse-engineer the Green Line to achieve that? Which of the elites' pension funds can we raid to pay for that, I wonder...)

Slideshowbob

runway16 wrote: »

just bloody build something!

eh sure all you need is money!! :rolleyes: In short supply at the moment though

Judgement Day

runway16 wrote: »

So how about we just finally stop talking about it, stop picking every proposal to bits and just bloody build something!

It's this sort of lash it about attitude, sure it's only money, that has us where we are - Thornton Hall, P Pars, E Voting etc. You sound like Noel Dempsey.

trad

I applied for, but was turned down, a licence to operate a commercial ferry service on the Grand Canal between Suir Road and Portobelo, effectively connecting the two Luas lines with existing ( and paid for ) infrastructure.

LXFlyer

runway16 wrote: »

I simply cannot Believe we are having this debate - AGAIN!

It because of this endless moaning, contradicting, rehashing, and failure to even examine how real public transport systems work in other countries, that we have been left with nothing after going through 20 years of unprecedented national wealth.

It is stunning that people still can't grasp the need for linked transport lines, and throw up the example of someone travelling from one line terminus to the other line terminus as a excuse, with no mention of the many that will use the link to travel between intermediate stations.

So how about we just finally stop talking about it, stop picking every proposal to bits and just bloody build something!

I fully grasp it - my point is that the integrated ticketing will remove the barrier to using two modes of transport.

I certainly don't think that there are people going terminus to terminus, but there are buses from SSG to all of the city centre areas served by the red line, and connections along the green line to the red line also.

I have a serious problem with the amount of disruption the construction of this will cause to thousands more bus users (who will still be bus users) every day for far fewer beneficiaries.

If it were Metro North I'd live with it, but this is nonsense in the context of having integrated ticketing.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

eh sure all you need is money!! In short supply at the moment though

That's the problem and it could be spent on something far more beneficial than this.

Cathaoirleach

Yes, you're right - BXD is complete nonsense.

We should build another line from Finglas to Broadstone so we can have 3 unconnected tram lines.

AngryLips

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Surely any "well proven formula" (which you can't refer to anyway!) is dependent on the city it must correlate with!?!

Anyway - to progress matters, see attached diagram

Black lines reflect existing Luas lines

Blue €'s with circles reflect combined distubance costs and land costs.

Red lines suggest roughly some options for connectivity.

It's obvious to me!!

Can you post a link to the London East Line map to reflect the connectivity it achieved and we can compare?

I'm not saying linking in the city is wrong, I'm just saying protagonists of it have not yet made a convincing argument ...... waiting to be proved wrong ...

You've still failed to demonstrate how connectivity exponentially increases ridership even in the face of an example I've given. You're point is completely without substance. I await your response.

CIE

AngryLips wrote: »

You've still failed to demonstrate how connectivity exponentially increases ridership even in the face of an example I've given. You're point is completely without substance. I await your response.

Ridership increase doesn't necessarily mean revenue increase, if costs go up.