Musgrave's rotten eggs?

camlinhall

The IFA has hit out today at Musgraves (Behind Supervalu and Centra) for getting egg producers to bid against each other. Sounds awful.
Sounds like capitalism/free market economy as we have always known it. And farmers can't be exposed to such a harsh reality, can they?
But it's good enough for the rest of us, I suppose...

mikemac

You won't see any benefit as a consumer

The producer will take lower prices and the retailers and Musgraves will pocket the difference.

For another example:
Every morning the supplier brings his trolley of milk to the shop and loads up the fridge.
The shop owner doesn't even touch the milk until it's put on his counter.
The shop owner then earns more from that litre of milk then the farmer who produced it

You can post about farmers living in a bubble but it's not the case at all.
And when these egg producers are driven out of business well we we can rely on imports I suppose

Nermal

mikemac wrote: »

You won't see any benefit as a consumer

The producer will take lower prices and the retailers and Musgraves will pocket the difference.

Then I'll take my business elsewhere, to Tesco, Lidl, Aldi or Dunnes. That option is available to farmers. Unfortunately they put all their energy into moaning or collecting subsidies.

Sand

mikemac wrote: »

You can post about farmers living in a bubble but it's not the case at all.
And when these egg producers are driven out of business well we we can rely on imports I suppose

Why cant Irish farmers compete? Why is it inevitable that they are driven out of bussiness? Why cant they deliver the best produce at the best prices?

Or is it merely hard?

mikemac

Nermal wrote: »

That option is available to farmers.

It is
But when co-op's turn into corporations like Kerry Group and supermarkets dominate with their buying power there are fewer options then you realize

Compete or die is the motto for this thread, that's business and that is fair enough

And if subsides were abolished and you paid the real price of producing food, it would be you complaining, not the farmer

SBWife

mikemac wrote: »

And if subsides were abolished and you paid the real price of producing food, it would be you complaining, not the farmer

Like what happened to the price of bananas when the subsides to the West Indies changed or the price of sugar when they stopped protecting the beet farmers? Pull the other one.

The IFA haven't shut up complaining since farmers started to have to pay tax on their income.

Sand

mikemac wrote: »

And if subsides were abolished and you paid the real price of producing food, it would be you complaining, not the farmer

Not really - theres huge trade barriers preventing farmers from selling their produce to Irish consumers at even cheaper prices. If those trade barriers were to be removed, Irish farmers would be climbing the walls foaming at the mouth.

mikemac

The first people on the street would be Dept of Agriculture staff who are no longer needed

Though when we went to single farm payments and a lot of administration was no longer needed , some staff transferred yet nobody got made redundant

Actually I shouldn't be surprised
No different to what happened when they merged the health boards and everyone kept their jobs

And with that, I've gone offtopic

camlinhall

mikemac wrote: »

The first people on the street would be Dept of Agriculture staff who are no longer needed

And with that, I've gone offtopic

I don't think she/he was ever really on it.....

mikemac

camlinhall wrote: »

I don't think she/he was ever really on it.....

Are you just looking for opinions that agree with you?

camlinhall

I'll settle for opinions that aren't entirely self-contradictory

Icepick

The IFA obviously defends their members.
People are still rich enough to do their shopping at Supervalu and Centra?

Debtocracy

camlinhall wrote: »

The IFA has hit out today at Musgraves (Behind Supervalu and Centra) for getting egg producers to bid against each other. Sounds awful.
Sounds like capitalism/free market economy as we have always known it. And farmers can't be exposed to such a harsh reality, can they?
But it's good enough for the rest of us, I suppose...

Farmers simply haven’t adapted to the capitalist model. What they need to do is coordinate a worldwide crop failure. People in rich countries will experience hunger for the first time in decades and food prices will skyrocket.

The current method of providing excess food to ensure that the needs of the population are met is a terrible business model. Inevitably the markets will sort themselves out, Irish farmers will be put out of business and onto the dole queues while the average person will need to take out a loan to do their grocery shopping.

Good loser

camlinhall wrote: »

I'll settle for opinions that aren't entirely self-contradictory

The obvious consequence of Musgraves move will be to put some egg farmers and their workers out of business.

I wonder will Bord Gais give them a job?

What if a firm put its jobs out for tender every three months? How many rules would that break?

Life is never simple.

lmimmfn

buy an egg in tescos, pick the premium ones, buy an egg off a local farmer and compare.

Tesco egg shell will be a lot weaker, i.e. regardless of the farm it came from, they will have been squeezed for profits which always affects quality.

If you support crap youll only be able to get crap. Regarding Musgrave's, it doesnt matter, the scrap for the cheapest eggs will last a while until consumers are pissed off at the quality and then its back to normal.

Note: Thats presuming consumers actually care about their eggs lol.

For the sake of saying it, i am extremely particular about the eggs i eat lol.

Tipp Man

Looks like a lot of people on here are in for 1 hell of a shock over the next few years when they realise just how much they are going to have to pay for food

It will double by 2025 in my opinion and continue to rise after that. This isn't an Irish phenomenon by the way - worldwide food will become a scarce commodity

So be prepared to pay for it

Tipp Man

SBWife wrote: »

Like what happened to the price of bananas when the subsides to the West Indies changed or the price of sugar when they stopped protecting the beet farmers? Pull the other one.

The IFA haven't shut up complaining since farmers started to have to pay tax on their income.

You do know that there is now a world shortage of sugar and that prices are at record highes don't you??

Mr.Micro

SBWife wrote: »

The IFA haven't shut up complaining since farmers started to have to pay tax on their income.

That is the truth. A farmer I know had not paid tax in 25 years of any sort. He got a demand a few years back which he had to pay. He is still thick about it.

Growing up in Ireland farmers paid no tax, got every grant going and even got the state pension, medical cards the lot. On top of that they had subsidies for this, that, whatever. They even get money for keeping the ditches and hedges in good order, reps I think its called. Its all about competition. Tesco and Sainsbury's drive their source costs down to get the best deal for them, so the gorged and pampered farmers better get used to it and compete.

SupaNova

Tipp Man wrote: »

Looks like a lot of people on here are in for 1 hell of a shock over the next few years when they realise just how much they are going to have to pay for food

It will double by 2025 in my opinion and continue to rise after that. This isn't an Irish phenomenon by the way - worldwide food will become a scarce commodity

So be prepared to pay for it

The notion that subsidies are there to save people money is wrong given its the same people that pay for the subsidy. So people are paying a high price for food, its just hidden from them.

A lot of things will double in price by 2025. With inflation at 5% a yr it takes less than 15 years for prices to double.

Tipp Man

Mr.Micro wrote: »

That is the truth. A farmer I know had not paid tax in 25 years of any sort. He got a demand a few years back which he had to pay. He is still thick about it.

Growing up in Ireland farmers paid no tax, got every grant going and even got the state pension, medical cards the lot. On top of that they had subsidies for this, that, whatever. They even get money for keeping the ditches and hedges in good order, reps I think its called. Its all about competition. Tesco and Sainsbury's drive their source costs down to get the best deal for them, so the gorged and pampered farmers better get used to it and compete.

Sorry but you are talking crap here

My family (farmers) have been paying tax every year since tax began in this state. Look if you are making a profit you are paying tax, thats the long and the short of it. Plenty of good farmers are making money and paying tax. Plenty of not so good farmers are not making money and are living of very little amounts of money

Do you ever stop to question what Tesco et al do once they have driven down there source costs? Where do you think that additional money goes? Do you honestly believe that you are the one to benefit from it?

Tipp Man

SupaNova wrote: »

The notion that subsidies are there to save people money is wrong given its the same people that pay for the subsidy. So people are paying a high price for food, its just hidden from them.

A lot of things will double in price by 2025. With inflation at 5% a yr it takes less than 15 years for prices to double.

Food inflation will outstrip inflation between now and 2025

I never said that subsidies are there to save money - i never even mentioned subsidies

SupaNova

Tipp Man wrote: »

Do you ever stop to question what Tesco et al do once they have driven down there source costs? Where do you think that additional money goes? Do you honestly believe that you are the one to benefit from it?

Supermarkets are also competing. If they can get food at the same source costs, the one that offers the best price attracts the most customers. Their profit per food item sold is smaller but they gain a larger market to sell to.

Tipp Man

SupaNova wrote: »

Supermarkets are also competing. If they can get food at the same source costs, the one that offers the best price attracts the most customers. Their profit per food item sold is smaller but they gain a larger market to sell to.

Why do you think Tesco called Ireland Treasure Island when they moved here?

Why do you think that supermarkets have become such a dominant force across Europe in the last 25 years? (supermarkets being the net winners from agri subsidies but people are too blind to see it)

SupaNova

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why do you think that supermarkets have become such a dominant force across Europe in the last 25 years? (supermarkets being the net winners from agri subsidies but people are too blind to see it)

They became dominant by offering the best prices to consumers. If the farmer sold produce at higher price X without the subsidy, the process would have been the same, whichever supermarket passed on the best price to the consumers would have become dominant.

Tipp Man

SupaNova wrote: »

They became dominant by offering the best prices to consumers. If the farmer sold produce at higher price X without the subsidy, the process would have been the same, whichever supermarket passed on the best price to the consumers would have become dominant.

by that token Lidl and/or Aldi should be the dominant players in Ireland - but they aint

Look the supermarkets were able to squeeze processors and farmers prices and still charge high prices to customers. They were able to use CAP to squeeze producer prices - the relationship between the cost to produce a food item and its cost on the supermarket shelf was completly broken ensuring that supermarkets earned huge profits

Taking milk in ireland as an example - the only time a supermarket worker will touch a carton of milk is to scan it (with self scan now it is possible for a product to be sold without a single employee touching it). Yet the supermarket will make over 5 times the profit from it that the processing company or the farmer will make from it. The farmer has to keep a cow for a year, the processor has the costs of collecting, processing and delivering. Are you trying to tell me that this scenario isn't a completly broken relationship??

You seem to think the supermarkets are doing you a favour or providing you with some kind of value. Let me tell you they most certainly are not

Like i said - Treasure Island

Mr.Micro

Tipp Man wrote: »

Sorry but you are talking crap here

My family (farmers) have been paying tax every year since tax began in this state. Look if you are making a profit you are paying tax, thats the long and the short of it. Plenty of good farmers are making money and paying tax. Plenty of not so good farmers are not making money and are living of very little amounts of money

Do you ever stop to question what Tesco et al do once they have driven down there source costs? Where do you think that additional money goes? Do you honestly believe that you are the one to benefit from it?

Well I am going on my anecdotal recollections which IMO are accurate and true in my area. Farmers have had it very good on the whole. Of course Tesco and the like will exploit. Its the consumer who pays through the nose all the time no matter what offers Tesco or Dunnes put on the shelves.

Tipp Man

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Well I am going on my anecdotal recollections which IMO are accurate and true in my area. Farmers have had it very good on the whole. Of course Tesco and the like will exploit. Its the consumer who pays through the nose all the time no matter what offers Tesco or Dunnes put on the shelves.

Like i said if a farmer is doing well he is paying tax - if not no tax. They are no different to any other business in the country in this respect

SupaNova

Tipp Man wrote: »

by that token Lidl and/or Aldi should be the dominant players in Ireland - but they aint

Lidl and Aldi offer cheaper prices but not for the same food/food quality.

darklighter

Tipp Man wrote: »

Taking milk in ireland as an example - the only time a supermarket worker will touch a carton of milk is to scan it (with self scan now it is possible for a product to be sold without a single employee touching it). Yet the supermarket will make over 5 times the profit from it that the processing company or the farmer will make from it. The farmer has to keep a cow for a year, the processor has the costs of collecting, processing and delivering. Are you trying to tell me that this scenario isn't a completly broken relationship??

You seem to think the supermarkets are doing you a favour or providing you with some kind of value. Let me tell you they most certainly are not

Like i said - Treasure Island

Anyone who thinks that supermarkets do ANYTHING for anyones benefits other than their bottom line is deluded.

And while the milk example above does highlight the power supermarkets have, that is how capitalism works. It mighn't be fair but that's life.

As for farmers not paying tax, that applies to every sector of society. There are judges, accountants, doctors, dentists, buliders, plumbers, bar-staff, people on social-welfare, celebrities etc all abusing the system

Chuck Stone

Tipp Man wrote: »

You do know that there is now a world shortage of sugar and that prices are at record highes don't you??

That's interesting.

High sugar prices are probably a good thing though wouldn't you agree?. High sugar prices will drive up the cost of soft drinks and cake which will benefit people's health I'd imagine.

Tipp Man

SupaNova wrote: »

Lidl and Aldi offer cheaper prices but not for the same food/food quality.

Tesco's food in general is poor for the prices charged and yet they are the largest in the country

Anyway that doesn't address any of the points i have raised

Mr.Micro

Tipp Man wrote: »

Like i said if a farmer is doing well he is paying tax - if not no tax. They are no different to any other business in the country in this respect

So that is most of them then I guess.:D

Tipp Man

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's interesting.

High sugar prices are probably a good thing though wouldn't you agree?. High sugar prices will drive up the cost of soft drinks and cake which will benefit people's health I'd imagine.

I wouldn't disagree with you in theory, whether that will happen in practice is another question

Tipp Man

Mr.Micro wrote: »

So that is most of them then I guess.:D

Well if you were to look at it from a financial point of view and consider the amount of money they have invested in land, machinery, buildings, machinery etc then the returns are currently poor

SupaNova

Tipp Man wrote: »

Tesco's food in general is poor for the prices charged and yet they are the largest in the country

Its a function of price and quality. Obviously a larger number of people prefer Tesco's quality to price offering than its competitor's

Anyway that doesn't address any of the points i have raised

You gave an example of milk without any concrete figures or facts and asked me if it was a broken relationship. Not 100% sure what your point was. Are you asking is it fair that some people earn more than others?

Tipp Man

SupaNova wrote: »

Its a function of price and quality. Obviously a larger number of people prefer Tesco's quality to price offering than its competitor's



You gave an example of milk without any concrete figures or facts and asked me if it was a broken relationship. Not 100% sure what your point was. Are you asking is it fair that some people earn more than others?

The point is the supermarkets are ripping you, me and every other customer off yet on this thread it seems the supermarkets are holier than thou and its all down to the evil farmers who get subsidies. What people are failing to see is that the subsidies actually end up in the pockets of the supermarkets

Mr.Micro

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well if you were to look at it from a financial point of view and consider the amount of money they have invested in land, machinery, buildings, machinery etc then the returns are currently poor

as in poor farmer?:D. Well they could always look for a paye job 9-5.

Tipp Man

Mr.Micro wrote: »

as in poor farmer?:D. Well they could always look for a paye job 9-5.

No just looking at it from a financial point of view. A farmer is entitled to a return on his/her assets as much as the next asset owner

There are a huge amount of farmers who are part time farmers with full time paye jobs.

paul71

SBWife wrote: »

The IFA haven't shut up complaining since farmers started to have to pay tax on their income.

So at what stage in the past did this mysterious event occur? Farmers have always been, and continue to be liable to pay tax on their income at the same rate and and within the same bands as all other self employed tax-payers.