CO2 and VRT

The Guvnor

A friend is looking at bringing in a car from UK.

Motorcheck.ie gave him a vrt figure of €4634 based on OMSP of €12500 or so.

Now revenue gave a figure of €5500.

Both were based on 36% VRT.

However Revenue had CO2 of 278 and MC had 244.

Is it possible to do your own test for the CO2 and if lower will it be accepted?

colm_mcm

The co2 of the particular car is on the v5 cert. That's the figure and theres no changing it.

jjbiker

I've just brought in a 1993 3dr ZX Volcane TD from the UK.

Revenue want €720 to clear it;

Valued it at €2000 and want 36% VRT as they don't have the correct co2 figures and from my calculations is 169 whiich should make it 20% VRT

I hope to get a letter from Citroen stating the above figure.

Fingers crossed . . . . . . .

Atlantic Dawn

jjbiker wrote: »

I've just brought in a 1993 3dr ZX Volcane TD from the UK.

Revenue want €720 to clear it;

Valued it at €2000 and want 36% VRT as they don't have the correct co2 figures and from my calculations is 169 whiich should make it 20% VRT

I hope to get a letter from Citroen stating the above figure.

Fingers crossed . . . . . . .

As far as I know they charge €700 minimum even if it's a wheelbarrow you are registering.

jjbiker

That's a myth regarding the €700 minimum.

I cleared a 98 well speced Octavia TDI for my Dad for €320 recently but the had the correct figures of co2 which made it 16% VRT.

It can be a lottery at times!!

Guy:Incognito

jjbiker wrote: »

That's a myth regarding the €700 minimum.

The €720 figure is the minimum for the top rate of VRT (36%). Any car that falls in to the 36% rate wil have a minimum value of €2000 given to it to give the €720 figure for VRT. Each rate has its own minimum amount.

Atlantic Dawn

jjbiker wrote: »

That's a myth regarding the €700 minimum.

I cleared a 98 well speced Octavia TDI for my Dad for €320 recently but the had the correct figures of co2 which made it 16% VRT.

It can be a lottery at times!!

Yes your right, there's actually a minimum based on the emissions

Yes. The minimum amounts of VRT that will be charged have also changed. Under the old scheme there was a minimum €315 charge for all cars regardless of the value. In recognition of the larger number of rates and the wider range from 14% up to 36%, a limit for each CO2 band has been introduced. The limits are according to the following table:
VRT Rate Minimum VRT
14% €280
16% €320
20% €400
24% €480
28% €560
32% €640
36% €720

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/faqs-co2.html

dbagman

colm_mcm wrote: »

The co2 of the particular car is on the v5 cert. That's the figure and theres no changing it.

so why on the vrt website does it say "you may enter a different co2 emissions figure here if you have documentary evidence to prove it"

surely bringing your car to an authorised garage to have the emissions tested and a cert issued stating if co2 is lower then stated in the tax book you should be able to get it at the lower tax band.

What would actually be considered "documentary evidence" and how would you go about getting it?

Atlantic Dawn

dbagman wrote: »

so why on the vrt website does it say "you may enter a different co2 emissions figure here if you have documentary evidence to prove it"

surely bringing your car to an authorised garage to have the emissions tested and a cert issued stating if co2 is lower then stated in the tax book you should be able to get it at the lower tax band.

What would actually be considered "documentary evidence" and how would you go about getting it?

The data on the V5 would be from the manufacturers official figures, if you can find an authorised garage able to produce a lower test result than when the car was new I would be very suprised. The only way you might get a lower result would be if the car was originally a Japanese import and then figures were based on a different test system from the EU regulation there may be room for improvement on a test here.

McP2011

The co2 details isn't on every v5.

dbagman

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The data on the V5 would be from the manufacturers official figures, if you can find an authorised garage able to produce a lower test result than when the car was new I would be very suprised. The only way you might get a lower result would be if the car was originally a Japanese import and then figures were based on a different test system from the EU regulation there may be room for improvement on a test here.

i dont fully understand what the "documentary evidence" line means though,my reading of it is if you get the car tested and a cert saying the emissions are lower surely that would suffice as documentary evidence?Iv just bought a diesel ford mondeo on english plates and on the v5 it states the co2 as 154.but iv been told with the use of dipetane theres no reason i couldnt get this down below 140 which would drop the car from tax band c to tax band b.thus dropping the annual road tax from 302 to 156 and the vrt rate from 20% to 16%.overall it would save me over a 1000 if i keep the car for a couple of years.If i were to produce that cert when going for the vrt would it not work?

R.O.R

dbagman wrote: »

i dont fully understand what the "documentary evidence" line means though,my reading of it is if you get the car tested and a cert saying the emissions are lower surely that would suffice as documentary evidence?Iv just bought a diesel ford mondeo on english plates and on the v5 it states the co2 as 154.but iv been told with the use of dipetane theres no reason i couldnt get this down below 140 which would drop the car from tax band c to tax band b.thus dropping the annual road tax from 302 to 156 and the vrt rate from 20% to 16%.overall it would save me over a 1000 if i keep the car for a couple of years.If i were to produce that cert when going for the vrt would it not work?

The CO2 emissions the manufacturer's state are based on a certain test run in controlled conditions (different speeds, stopping / starting etc.)

Do you think your local garage will be able to replicate this run and the conditions to allow an new type approval for your specific vehicle?

The documentary evidence is the CO2 emissions on the Log Book, which will be same as on the Certificate of Conformity issued for that make/model.

dbagman

R.O.R wrote: »

The CO2 emissions the manufacturer's state are based on a certain test run in controlled conditions (different speeds, stopping / starting etc.)

Do you think your local garage will be able to replicate this run and the conditions to allow an new type approval for your specific vehicle?

The documentary evidence is the CO2 emissions on the Log Book, which will be same as on the Certificate of Conformity issued for that make/model.

well it was a mate that gave me this idea in the first place and suggested a garage nearby that he knows for a fact carry out emission tests.Hes in the vehicle recovery business so is in the know when it comes all things car related and has imported a car from the uk himself a couple of years back.it has to be worth a shot in fairness.i cant see how they cant take a cert from a garage as anything but documentary evidence.what if someone were to lose their v5 form?how would they prove their co2 emissions then?

R.O.R

dbagman wrote: »

well it was a mate that gave me this idea in the first place and suggested a garage nearby that he knows for a fact carry out emission tests.Hes in the vehicle recovery business so is in the know when it comes all things car related and has imported a car from the uk himself a couple of years back.it has to be worth a shot in fairness.i cant see how they cant take a cert from a garage as anything but documentary evidence.what if someone were to lose their v5 form?how would they prove their co2 emissions then?

If someone loses their V5, then they can get a replacement. If that's not possible, then the car manufacturer will have the test results on file for that model of vehicle.

I can get an emissions test done on a car in most garages, but doesn't measure the grams of CO2 emitted per KM, which is what the figure on the V5 is.

dbagman

R.O.R wrote: »

If someone loses their V5, then they can get a replacement. If that's not possible, then the car manufacturer will have the test results on file for that model of vehicle.

I can get an emissions test done on a car in most garages, but doesn't measure the grams of CO2 emitted per KM, which is what the figure on the V5 is.

okay,but there has to be a way to get grams of co2 per km read??the fact that you can enter your own value for the co2 levels on the vrt calculator must indicate that there is some room for scope on this matter.if it was a case of what the manufacturer says is gospel then they wouldnt have added this feature to the form.

R.O.R

dbagman wrote: »

okay,but there has to be a way to get grams of co2 per km read??the fact that you can enter your own value for the co2 levels on the vrt calculator must indicate that there is some room for scope on this matter.if it was a case of what the manufacturer says is gospel then they wouldnt have added this feature to the form.

That feature on the form is because different versions of the same car might have different emission levels.

e.g. If you enter a 2008 Audi A6 2.0Tdi Saloon on the form it will come back with a CO2 amount, but as there were different evolutions of the engine available in that car, sold at different points of the year, the figure that revenue have might be for the older version. If you have the newer, more effiecient engine, you can enter the CO2 emissions from the V5 for that vehicle which will result in a lower VRT category.

dbagman

R.O.R wrote: »

That feature on the form is because different versions of the same car might have different emission levels.

e.g. If you enter a 2008 Audi A6 2.0Tdi Saloon on the form it will come back with a CO2 amount, but as there were different evolutions of the engine available in that car, sold at different points of the year, the figure that revenue have might be for the older version. If you have the newer, more effiecient engine, you can enter the CO2 emissions from the V5 for that vehicle which will result in a lower VRT category.

well looking at this on vrtireland.com there are 3 different tax bands for the same engine as in my mondeo.
http://www.vrtireland.com/2008/04/11/ford-co2-emission-guide/
1.8 duratorq TDCI (125ps)
and funny enough after looking at my v5 form it states the co2 as 154 and on that website and the vrt calculator its read as 149.so seems their own readings dont conform to what the manufacturer says.

R.O.R

dbagman wrote: »

well looking at this on vrtireland.com there are 3 different tax bands for the same engine as in my mondeo.
http://www.vrtireland.com/2008/04/11/ford-co2-emission-guide/
1.8 duratorq TDCI (125ps)
and funny enough after looking at my v5 form it states the co2 as 154 and on that website and the vrt calculator its read as 149.so seems their own readings dont conform to what the manufacturer says.

125ps Zetec 1.8Tdci had emissions of 154g. Should be a 6 speed gearbox in this. The 100ps LX engine had emissions of 149g - should be a 5 speed box with a slightly smaller chasm in low down torque.

ecoNetic version of the 1.8Tdci 125ps had emissions of 139g when it was launched. This came with a 5 speed box, smaller fuel tank and a couple of aero tweaks.

dbagman

R.O.R wrote: »

125ps Zetec 1.8Tdci had emissions of 154g. Should be a 6 speed gearbox in this. The 100ps LX engine had emissions of 149g - should be a 5 speed box with a slightly smaller chasm in low down torque.

ecoNetic version of the 1.8Tdci 125ps had emissions of 139g when it was launched. This came with a 5 speed box, smaller fuel tank and a couple of aero tweaks.

mine has a 6 speed gearbox,should that make a difference?(its at this point i should tell you beyond driving the car i have no idea whatsoever as to the workings of them)look lets agree to disagree,im gonna give it a shot,all they can do is say no and all the emissions test costs is 40,is surely worth the investment at the possibility of savings of 1000+. ill let you know how it goes in a few weeks when i go for it

-Chris-

dbagman wrote: »

mine has a 6 speed gearbox,should that make a difference?

Yes, the difference it makes is that it means your car is 154, not 149, as per R.O.R's post.
AKA your V5 is correct.

I'm not sure what the issue is, you have a CO2 reading, pay your VRT.

The revenue won't give you a reduced amount based on the fact that you promise to put Dipetane in every tank.
You certainly won't be informing them if your mechanic get a higher CO2 reading that puts you in a higher tax band.

You're just wasting your time and money tbh.

Henry Ford III

I agree with ROR and Chris.

VRT is based on what the car actually is, not some fanciful notion of what you'd prefer it to be.

R.O.R

There is also no difference in the VRT category of a 149g car and a 154g car (both band C). I'd be very surprised if you put 149 in the box on the VRT calc and it made any difference to the cost.

dbagman

R.O.R wrote: »

There is also no difference in the VRT category of a 149g car and a 154g car (both band C). I'd be very surprised if you put 149 in the box on the VRT calc and it made any difference to the cost.

i never said there was a difference in tax between 149 and 154,vrt says car emissions is 149 and v5 says 154,the difference comes into play if the emissions go down to 140,which is very achievable,you seem to be missing my point here,clearly the vrt system DOES NOT go on the figures provided by the manufacturer when the v5 reading is different to the one given on the calculator.

"VRT is based on what the car actually is, not some fanciful notion of what you'd prefer it to be"
clearly its not what id prefer it to be its what it will be.If i had preference cars wouldn't produce any harmful toxins at all.

And theres no "problem" as you put it with paying the vrt,but if theres a chance of saving myself over a grand im going to give it a shot,dont tell me you wouldn't do the same after being given the idea from a professional within the car trade.

-Chris-

dbagman wrote: »

i never said there was a difference in tax between 149 and 154,vrt says car emissions is 149 and v5 says 154,the difference comes into play if the emissions go down to 140,which is very achievable,you seem to be missing my point here,clearly the vrt system DOES NOT go on the figures provided by the manufacturer when the v5 reading is different to the one given on the calculator.

"VRT is based on what the car actually is, not some fanciful notion of what you'd prefer it to be"
clearly its not what id prefer it to be its what it will be.If i had preference cars wouldn't produce any harmful toxins at all.

And theres no "problem" as you put it with paying the vrt,but if theres a chance of saving myself over a grand im going to give it a shot,dont tell me you wouldn't do the same after being given the idea from a professional within the car trade.

Jesus, you're not going to let this go, are you?

It's been shown that there have been 3 different CO2 emissions versions of your car/engine. Your V5 shows which model you have.

The VRT website isn't allowing leeway, it's just listing the CO2 figure from a different version of your car.

There's no ambiguity here, no confusion. You have a valid CO2 figure supplied by the manufacturer and printed on your V5.

R.O.R

dbagman wrote: »

dont tell me you wouldn't do the same after being given the idea from a professional within the car trade.

I wouldn't do the same as it's an exercise in futility, and I'm a professional within the car trade.

dbagman

R.O.R wrote: »

I wouldn't do the same as it's an exercise in futility, and I'm a professional within the car trade.

how do you know for sure it would be futile?have you heard of anyone trying it?for the sake off 40quid it has to be worth a chance???

Gumbo

dbagman wrote: »

how do you know for sure it would be futile?have you heard of anyone trying it?for the sake off 40quid it has to be worth a chance???

It will 100% be futile. You have a V5 with a stated CO2. You pay VRT based on that figure and nothing on earth will change that. If Holy Jesus appeared tomorrow and granted free fish to south africa, you will still be paying VRT based on the 154 figure, as thats whats on the V5.

-Chris-

dbagman wrote: »

how do you know for sure it would be futile?have you heard of anyone trying it?for the sake off 40quid it has to be worth a chance???

How much does a phone call cost? Would you not ring a VRT office and ask them what documentation they'll accept before you waste €40 on an emissions test that won't be accepted.


And I'll put it to you again - if it turns out that your car has been misused during its life in the UK and is making a higher CO2 figure than it should, pushing it up a band, I'll guarantee you won't be providing this documentation and asking to pay a higher rate of VRT/Motor Tax....

dbagman

-Chris- wrote: »

How much does a phone call cost? Would you not ring a VRT office and ask them what documentation they'll accept before you waste €40 on an emissions test that won't be accepted.


And I'll put it to you again - if it turns out that your car has been misused during its life in the UK and is making a higher CO2 figure than it should, pushing it up a band, I'll guarantee you won't be providing this documentation and asking to pay a higher rate of VRT/Motor Tax....

tried contacting them and will try again,just said id ask here and see what everyone thinks.

of course im not going to tell them if the car is running on a higher co2 rate and ask to pay more,that would defeat the whole purpose of this in the first place!bit of a pointless statement to make really

-Chris-

dbagman wrote: »

tried contacting them and will try again,just said id ask here and see what everyone thinks.

And yet, even though eveyone's pretty much agreed on what'll happen, you're still planning on going ahead with it.

dbagman wrote: »

of course im not going to tell them if the car is running on a higher co2 rate and ask to pay more,that would defeat the whole purpose of this in the first place!bit of a pointless statement to make really

Fair 'nuff, I just wondered how committed you were to the whole "my VRT should be based on my real world emissions" philosophy (ignoring, of course, the goalpost-moving effect of the addition of emission-reducing fuel additives).


Keep trying on the phone, they can be a pain to get through to, but it's far more beneficial for you to talk to someone in the VRT office than it is for you to take advice from anonymous posters on the internet of from a (clearly deluded) tow truck operator.

dbagman

-Chris- wrote: »

And yet, even though eveyone's pretty much agreed on what'll happen, you're still planning on going ahead with it.




Fair 'nuff, I just wondered how committed you were to the whole "my VRT should be based on my real world emissions" philosophy (ignoring, of course, the goalpost-moving effect of the addition of emission-reducing fuel additives).

everyone being 3 people??wow,i have more people then that telling me in person that its worth a shot.sure what harm could it do to ask?you dont ask you dont get.

-Chris-

dbagman wrote: »

everyone being 3 people??wow,i have more people then that telling me in person that its worth a shot.sure what harm could it do to ask?you dont ask you dont get.

Absolutely, go for it then. Please let us know how you get on so that others may also take the same route if it turns out to be successful.

dbagman

-Chris- wrote: »

Absolutely, go for it then. Please let us know how you get on so that others may also take the same route if it turns out to be successful.

will do mate,wont be for a month tho,not booked for vrt till then

R.O.R

dbagman wrote: »

will do mate,wont be for a month tho,not booked for vrt till then

Don't leave us in suspense for that long. Come back and let us know how many grams of Co2 per KM the test you are having done states - just for my reference.

R.O.R

Just came across this while looking up what classifies a Charity Minibus (any links would be greatly appreciated)

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/faqs-vrt.html#section23

"I can put a filter on my car to reduce the CO2 emissions. Does this mean I can get a reduction in VRT?No. The level of CO2 emissions measured at manufacture and contained on the certificate of conformity dictates the rate of VRT charged on registration. Subsequent changes will not impact on the VRT charged"

michellie

An emissions test won't be sufficient. It will just be a waste of money.

Get something from the manufacturer. That's all that is going to be accepted. It's unfortunate but true

mickdw

Jesus, there is no telling this guy.

dr.fuzzenstein

God loves a trier!
Chances of this succeeding are somewhere in the snowball/hell scenario, but go for it, worst that can happen is that they say no.