Why I joined Ógra Fianna Fáil (thejournal.ie)

joseph brand

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-why-i-joined-ogra-fianna-fail/

Read on if you want to annoy yourself.

as the young people I meet within Ógra are more determined than ever to make a positive difference. And although it’s a tough time to be in Fianna Fáil, it’s an exciting time too as there is a real sense now that this is a good opportunity to shape a better party.

Even better opportunity to leave the party and let it rot. Just sayin.

Laminations

Grrrrr!!


Most of that drivel describes aspects of 'party politics' and not specific to FF - canvassing, diversity of membership, social outlet etc. The only explanation about why they joined FF is this

To decide which party to join, I began by visiting all their websites and researching each party. I knew I was only interested in joining a centre-ground party and so found myself deciding between Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. I read a little further into both parties’ policies and manifestos, then chose FF based on its centrist approach and ideology encompassing all sections of society.

So based on reading their policies (which ones exactly?) and obviously ignoring their actions (both as a government party and the actions of individual members) this person decided FF was for them?? Because their ideology encompasses all sections of sociaety? What ideology is that exactly?

I wonder is mammy or daddy involved in the party?

The rest of the bloody thing reads like an advert for Ogra. Its a poorly disguised recruitment piece.

'Ogra are great, Ogra are fun, Ogra are young, look at all these cool events we have'
Pu-leeeeease

HellsAngel

It must be torture been a FF supporter these days No one deserves it better

HellsAngel

Laminations wrote: »

Grrrrr!!


Most of that drivel describes aspects of 'party politics' and not specific to FF - canvassing, diversity of membership, social outlet etc. The only explanation about why they joined FF is this



So based on reading their policies (which ones exactly?) and obviously ignoring their actions (both as a government party and the actions of individual members) this person decided FF was for them?? Because their ideology encompasses all sections of sociaety? What ideology is that exactly?

I wonder is mammy or daddy involved in the party?

The rest of the bloody thing reads like an advert for Ogra. Its a poorly disguised recruitment piece.

'Ogra are great, Ogra are fun, Ogra are young, look at all these cool events we have'
Pu-leeeeease

So who are the FF role models for these idealistc young people ? Ahern, Haughey, Dev, Lynch, Bev Flynn, Seanie Doherty, Ray Burke ?

thebman

Does someone really need to explain why they joined a party?

Anyway "working full-time in the Irish film industry" sort of implies to me that this area requires/gets government funding for a lot of projects so he joined the party in power to align himself to this for his career and not because of any idealistic reasons.

If his friends are anything like my friends, they don't join political parties because they disagree with the major parties on social issues and are more liberal than the political parties trying to attract a more conservative, older voter since they turn up on polling day in greater numbers.

headmaster

I'm an ex chairman of a Fianna Fail cumann, i love your innocence. I am 3rd generation FF, steeped in the party as much as anyone could possibly be. I'll tell you this for nothing, THE FIANNA FAIL PARTY IS FINISHED. When i think of all the people who did so much work over the years for FF, only to see a mockery made of it by Ahern and Haughy + all their cohorts. When times started to get tough, they took the money and ran. It didn't matter that the country had not got the money, they screwed all of us, put their friends in places of power, screwed everyone, laughed at us, then decided we couldn't touch them in an election if they ran away with obscene pensions. I, or any ex FF member I know, will NEVER forgive them. They have poisoned the FF name, it can never be used again in any election, they have betrayed the party and the country. I am ashamed of them. Like a good lad, see some sense, get out there and form a new political party for 21st century Ireland and be proud to do so. There are thousands of people waiting patiently for this to happen, just make sure you don't take any advise from people involved at any senior level in the old, ruined, betrayed FF hierarchy.

HellsAngel

headmaster wrote: »

I'm an ex chairman of a Fianna Fail cumann, i love your innocence. I am 3rd generation FF, steeped in the party as much as anyone could possibly be. I'll tell you this for nothing, THE FIANNA FAIL PARTY IS FINISHED. When i think of all the people who did so much work over the years for FF, only to see a mockery made of it by Ahern and Haughy + all their cohorts. When times started to get tough, they took the money and ran. It didn't matter that the country had not got the money, they screwed all of us, put their friends in places of power, screwed everyone, laughed at us, then decided we couldn't touch them in an election if they ran away with obscene pensions. I, or any ex FF member I know, will NEVER forgive them. They have poisoned the FF name, it can never be used again in any election, they have betrayed the party and the country. I am ashamed of them. Like a good lad, see some sense, get out there and form a new political party for 21st century Ireland and be proud to do so. There are thousands of people waiting patiently for this to happen, just make sure you don't take any advise from people involved at any senior level in the old, ruined, betrayed FF hierarchy.

"get out there and form a new political party"Yeah FFers called Desie O'Malley, Mary Harney etc did that and look what happened !!!

FFers are like an incurable drug addict, sooner or later they will return to their old ways.

Seloth

Sorry lads but yer responses are comical.It seems more so that you want to somehow find a fault with this person as they are in FF.

Most people join for genuine reasons and it troubles me that you hold such a views and hatred.

Laminations

Seloth wrote: »

Sorry lads but yer responses are comical.It seems more so that you want to somehow find a fault with this person as they are in FF.

Most people join for genuine reasons and it troubles me that you hold such a views and hatred.

Moselle's piece in the Journal did not present any genuine reasons. They glossed over the details and differences between the parties (in relation to policy) upon which they claim their choice was made. They also failed to comment on the actions of the party they were joining. You would think that as well as policy you would care about the actual conduct of the party?

Aside from that the rest of the letter was a puff piece advertising how much great fun you can have in Ogra.

Zubeneschamali

Seloth wrote: »

Most people join for genuine reasons

I keep asking, and no-one tells me:

What genuine reason is there for joining FF? What do they stand for?

The linked article is just another "join FF because they are the party of permanent government" spiel: the author joined to defend her tax subsidized job. That's only a reason as long as they really are the party of permanent government.

Wolfe Tone

I remember last year in college they had a stall on clubs and socs day... If you joined they gave you a copy of the proclamation, I took great pleasure in detailing to the guy running the stall how FF should, rather than give away the document, read it and attempt to uphold the sentiments therein.

I noticed a lot of people joined OFF and FG for the stuff! (FG gave away a copy of Michael Collins)

lugha

Laminations wrote: »

They glossed over the details and differences between the parties (in relation to policy) upon which they claim their choice was made.

That's in in a nutshell. Other than family tradition I cannot see why, in normal times, one might be drawn to being a full time supporter of FF rather than FG (or vice versa), based on what you believe the party stands for. (Of course, in the past it made more sense to be in FF; you would be the party of government more often. The same reason in reverse that it now makes sense to give them a wide berth).

The article very much needed a paragraph explaining in detail why not FG. Alas...

raymon

The author should have begun by saying , " I completely ignored the corruption, perjury, forgery, theft, tax evasion, incompetence, misrepresentation, lies, arrogance and financial treason .............."

Scofflaw

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I keep asking, and no-one tells me:

What genuine reason is there for joining FF? What do they stand for?

The linked article is just another "join FF because they are the party of permanent government" spiel: the author joined to defend her tax subsidized job. That's only a reason as long as they really are the party of permanent government.

OK - strictly playing devil's advocate here.

First, say one considers Fianna Fáil to be a legitimate political party despite their recent record - 'legitimate' in the sense that they're legal as a party. So joining is a matter of preference rather than insanity.

Second, Fianna Fáil have a very impressive electoral record, and a very large potential power base in the country. There are a lot of disgruntled ex-Fianna Fáil voters out there, but perhaps in better circumstances (for the party, that is) they could be tempted back within the fold again. Brand recognition is 100% with Irish voters, which is a big plus, even if the brand is currently toxic.

So one might say that what's needed is to rehabilitate the party - to stop it being a party of gombeen economics and chancerism. OK, or being seen that way, anyway.

Has there ever been a better time to do that than now? No, not really. With all the previous power structures within Fianna Fáil in disarray, there's a genuine opportunity there for younger recruits to make the party over. All the potential Fine Gael seats are full, but most of the potential Fianna Fáil seats are empty. And many of the old names are toxic too.

And their policies will hardly stand in the way of someone young and ambitious joining them, because, hey, they don't really have any. So if you weren't particularly policy-driven, but still wanted to embark on a political career, this is quite a good time to join. And if Fianna Fáil comes off the ropes after a few more years of austere Fine Gael/Labour government, you're in with a chance of rising high along with them. In that sense, nowhere to go but up.

Not exactly a noble set of motives, I'll grant you, but relatively coherent.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Thinkingaboutit

Irish politics is a family to a striking degree, so the article can be summarised thus:
'My Daddy was in it.' Family businesses can be excellent, but the favouritism towards some real duds because of the family name in politics is not good in any way. If a dud inherits a privately owned family business, that business will be a goner sooner or later, especially in these times. Remember that the fat man who definitively abolished Irish sovereignty got his place as a TD because of his father.

Laminations

Scofflaw wrote: »

OK - strictly playing devil's advocate here.

First, say one considers Fianna Fáil to be a legitimate political party despite their recent record - 'legitimate' in the sense that they're legal as a party. So joining is a matter of preference rather than insanity.

Second, Fianna Fáil have a very impressive electoral record, and a very large potential power base in the country. There are a lot of disgruntled ex-Fianna Fáil voters out there, but perhaps in better circumstances (for the party, that is) they could be tempted back within the fold again. Brand recognition is 100% with Irish voters, which is a big plus, even if the brand is currently toxic.

So one might say that what's needed is to rehabilitate the party - to stop it being a party of gombeen economics and chancerism. OK, or being seen that way, anyway.

Has there ever been a better time to do that than now? No, not really. With all the previous power structures within Fianna Fáil in disarray, there's a genuine opportunity there for younger recruits to make the party over. All the potential Fine Gael seats are full, but most of the potential Fianna Fáil seats are empty. And many of the old names are toxic too.

And their policies will hardly stand in the way of someone young and ambitious joining them, because, hey, they don't really have any. So if you weren't particularly policy-driven, but still wanted to embark on a political career, this is quite a good time to join. And if Fianna Fáil comes off the ropes after a few more years of austere Fine Gael/Labour government, you're in with a chance of rising high along with them. In that sense, nowhere to go but up.

Not exactly a noble set of motives, I'll grant you, but relatively coherent.

cordially,
Scofflaw

And not at all what the contributor to the Journal had to say. You admit they don't have policies and argue (as devils advocate) that this would give a good blank canvas for a new ambitious type to paint with their vision. However the author says they joined because of the policies and ideology of FF. So it is fair to say 'what policies? what ideology?'. Even you (as devils advocate) have admitted they have no policies so I call bullsh1t on their 'reasons' and cite them as yet another example of why FF are toxic, because they attract liars.

And I think we should value a bit of nobility over mere coherence. The lack of morals and hunger for power in FF was a problem that has festered. So the devils advocate would argue that this could be addressed by power hungry opportunists who have few honourable motives for joining the party (and aren't really policy-driven)?

Come back when you wanna play pall-bearer (rather than devils advocate) to FF.

Leslie91

headmaster wrote: »

I'm an ex chairman of a Fianna Fail cumann, i love your innocence. I am 3rd generation FF, steeped in the party as much as anyone could possibly be. I'll tell you this for nothing, THE FIANNA FAIL PARTY IS FINISHED. When i think of all the people who did so much work over the years for FF, only to see a mockery made of it by Ahern and Haughy + all their cohorts. When times started to get tough, they took the money and ran. It didn't matter that the country had not got the money, they screwed all of us, put their friends in places of power, screwed everyone, laughed at us, then decided we couldn't touch them in an election if they ran away with obscene pensions. I, or any ex FF member I know, will NEVER forgive them. They have poisoned the FF name, it can never be used again in any election, they have betrayed the party and the country. I am ashamed of them. Like a good lad, see some sense, get out there and form a new political party for 21st century Ireland and be proud to do so. There are thousands of people waiting patiently for this to happen, just make sure you don't take any advise from people involved at any senior level in the old, ruined, betrayed FF hierarchy.

I hope you are right, that the FF party is finished. May they all rot in you know where.

Scofflaw

Laminations wrote: »

And not at all what the contributor to the Journal had to say. You admit they don't have policies and argue (as devils advocate) that this would give a good blank canvas for a new ambitious type to paint with their vision. However the author says they joined because of the policies and ideology of FF. So it is fair to say 'what policies? what ideology?'. Even you (as devils advocate) have admitted they have no policies so I call bullsh1t on their 'reasons' and cite them as yet another example of why FF are toxic, because they attract liars.

To be fair, I think the author of the piece said that they compared the policies of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, and decided on the former. They don't say that it was the policies that attracted then - they could have been put off by Fine Gael's policies, or even by Fine Gael having policies in the first place.

I'm certainly not aware of any Fianna Fáil policies that deserve the name.

Laminations wrote: »

And I think we should value a bit of nobility over mere coherence. The lack of morals and hunger for power in FF was a problem that has festered. So the devils advocate would argue that this could be addressed by power hungry opportunists who have few honourable motives for joining the party (and aren't really policy-driven)?

As I said, they're not noble motives, but the choice appears to be between a set of coherent if ignoble goals as outlined, and idiocy either congenital or particular. Even as devil's advocate, I'm not suggesting that the likely motives for joining the party are good or desirable ones, only that they're coherent.

Laminations wrote: »

Come back when you wanna play pall-bearer (rather than devils advocate) to FF.

I have a horrible suspicion that it's far too early for anyone to be playing pall-bearer. What's really needed is someone to play stake-wielder, but it's hard to see what kind of stake it would take to settle the matter permanently.

And would the death of Fianna Fáil really remove their style of politics from Ireland? If the best coherent and conscious motives I can think of as devil's advocate are ignoble and self-serving ones, and nobody can suggest any better ones (or can only suggest various delusional ones), then it seems unlikely.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zubeneschamali

The only way I see that FF is permanently irrelevant is if some kind of crisis causes the Government to fall, and FG somehow blame Labour and get an overall majority, or enough to form a Government with some Shane Ross style independents. Then we might get a FG government, with a left wing opposition led by Labour, and then a government of the left after the following election, and a left-right realignment.

Far more likely, people will vote to throw the current lot out at the next election, and FF will look more electable than the Shinners, looney left or the Greens.

Scofflaw

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The only way I see that FF is permanently irrelevant is if some kind of crisis causes the Government to fall, and FG somehow blame Labour and get an overall majority, or enough to form a Government with some Shane Ross style independents. Then we might get a FG government, with a left wing opposition led by Labour, and then a government of the left after the following election, and a left-right realignment.

Far more likely, people will vote to throw the current lot out at the next election, and FF will look more electable than the Shinners, looney left or the Greens.

Seems likely to me. If Fine Gael are very lucky, they might get two terms here - but once dissatisfaction has set in, the alternative is likely to be Fianna Fáil.

glumly,
Scofflaw

Zubeneschamali

Scofflaw wrote: »

And would the death of Fianna Fáil really remove their style of politics from Ireland?

No: corruption, clientism, cronyism, fake nationalism, and tribalism are common in other countries, and not unknown in other Irish parties.

But those aren't usually core values in other parties.

Laminations

Scofflaw wrote: »

To be fair, I think the author of the piece said that they compared the policies of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, and decided on the former. They don't say that it was the policies that attracted then - they could have been put off by Fine Gael's policies, or even by Fine Gael having policies in the first place.

I'm certainly not aware of any Fianna Fáil policies that deserve the name.

So if looking at websites and liking the FF policies/ideology was not the reason that the author was giving for joining FF, then what was their reason? My problem is with having an article called 'why I joined FF' and then not actually giving any reasons but just using the space to say 'Ogra FF are great' is an appalling decision by theJournal. That coupled with the number of anti-FF comments apparently being deleted makes me question the affiliations of the editors and mods of that site.

As I said, they're not noble motives, but the choice appears to be between a set of coherent if ignoble goals as outlined, and idiocy either congenital or particular. Even as devil's advocate, I'm not suggesting that the likely motives for joining the party are good or desirable ones, only that they're coherent.

If FFers laid out their stall in such a coherent way it would expose their ignoble motives. We'd all see them for the power hungry opportunists (that aren't policy-driven) you may paint them to be. At least doing so they'd be honest. I'd settle for coherence over the incoherent lies we get from the card-carrying members of the party, but I'd still dismiss that coherent argument for its ignobility and conclude that 'more of the same' is not what is needed in Irish politics.

I have a horrible suspicion that it's far too early for anyone to be playing pall-bearer. What's really needed is someone to play stake-wielder, but it's hard to see what kind of stake it would take to settle the matter permanently.

FF will devour itself from within.

And would the death of Fianna Fáil really remove their style of politics from Ireland? If the best coherent and conscious motives I can think of as devil's advocate are ignoble and self-serving ones, and nobody can suggest any better ones (or can only suggest various delusional ones), then it seems unlikely.

Their death would hopefully send a message that that type of person is not wanted by the people. There are plenty of people who want to contribute to politics for the good of the country. They don't have to nail their colours to any party flag to make that contribution and congratulating people for merely getting involved (as many of the FF commentators to the article have done) is meaningless. Getting involved is not a laudable exercise in itself. I wouldn't congratulate someone who joined the BNP because they were 'getting involved' or 'showing an interest in politics'.

As devils advocate you have pieced together a coherent but disturbing, ignoble set of reasons for joining FF. It suggests to me that the party is still attracting ignoble individuals. Yes, if FF disappear these ignoble power hungry people (not policy-driven) may find another outlet and route to power. But maybe it won't be as easy for them, I'd settle for that

Scofflaw

Their death would hopefully send a message that that type of person is not wanted by the people. There are plenty of people who want to contribute to politics for the good of the country. They don't have to nail their colours to any party flag to make that contribution and congratulating people for merely getting involved (as many of the FF commentators to the article have done) is meaningless. Getting involved is not a laudable exercise in itself. I wouldn't congratulate someone who joined the BNP because they were 'getting involved' or 'showing an interest in politics'.

As devils advocate you have pieced together a coherent but disturbing, ignoble set of reasons for joining FF. It suggests to me that the party is still attracting ignoble individuals. Yes, if FF disappear these ignoble power hungry people (not policy-driven) may find another outlet and route to power. But maybe uit won't be as easy for them, I'd settle for that

Sure. Fianna Fáil's core values over the last 20 years appear to have been getting into and retaining power, nothing more - and that's really 'nothing more' on a scale which isn't usually the case in politics.

Having thought about it, one could postulate in theory someone joining Fianna Fáil largely for the reasons already suggested, but with a dedication to making them a policy-driven party. But since the author of the piece doesn't mention any policies, that's not likely to be the reason.

cordially,
Scofflaw

lugha

Laminations wrote: »

Their death would hopefully send a message that that type of person is not wanted by the people.

Alas I don't think this is true. Much of the demise of FF is IMO, not down to their ethical standards but essentially because of the economic collapse. I cannot recall the economist that said the '07 would be a good one to lose but I think had FG made it over the line then, then it would be them now standing on the precipice.

Truth is the people were given opportunities at the ballot on many occasions to punish the errant ways of our various misbehaving politicians but when the going was good, or even when it was not too bad, we found ourselves very forgiving.

When, before the election this year, was the last time you could indisputably say a TD lost their seat because of low standards in public office? I half suspect this is how some of the FFers might see thinks. Hunker down for a couple of years and ride out the storm.

raymon

headmaster wrote: »

I'm an ex chairman of a Fianna Fail cumann, i love your innocence. I am 3rd generation FF, steeped in the party as much as anyone could possibly be. I'll tell you this for nothing, THE FIANNA FAIL PARTY IS FINISHED.

I do hope you are right . They should apologise and disband

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Brand recognition is 100% with Irish voters, which is a big plus, even if the brand is currently toxic.

What? Everyone recognises "Chernobyl" too - you wouldn't vote in favour of it, though.

Maybe I am completely out-of-touch with the majority (possible, considering the popularity of Jedward, X-factor and other "branded" tripe) but if the brand is more important than the actions then there's something seriously wrong with a majority of Irish voters.

HellsAngel

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What? Everyone recognises "Chernobyl" too - you wouldn't vote in favour of it, though.

Maybe I am completely out-of-touch with the majority (possible, considering the popularity of Jedward, X-factor and other "branded" tripe) but if the brand is more important than the actions then there's something seriously wrong with a majority of Irish voters.

Well when you look at how they returned the most corrupt, rotten, cronyist govt for 14 years - you can be forgiven for thinking their is something wrong with them

Scofflaw

lugha wrote:

Alas I don't think this is true. Much of the demise of FF is IMO, not down to their ethical standards but essentially because of the economic collapse. I cannot recall the economist that said the '07 would be a good one to lose but I think had FG made it over the line then, then it would be them now standing on the precipice.

Truth is the people were given opportunities at the ballot on many occasions to punish the errant ways of our various misbehaving politicians but when the going was good, or even when it was not too bad, we found ourselves very forgiving.

When, before the election this year, was the last time you could indisputably say a TD lost their seat because of low standards in public office? I half suspect this is how some of the FFers might see thinks. Hunker down for a couple of years and ride out the storm.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What? Everyone recognises "Chernobyl" too - you wouldn't vote in favour of it, though.

Maybe I am completely out-of-touch with the majority (possible, considering the popularity of Jedward, X-factor and other "branded" tripe) but if the brand is more important than the actions then there's something seriously wrong with a majority of Irish voters.

The evidence points ineluctably in that direction.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

HellsAngel wrote: »

when you look at how they returned the most corrupt, rotten, cronyist govt for 14 years - you can be forgiven for thinking their is something wrong with them

No argument here. And that's actually what really makes me consider moving to another country - the fact that so many people here approve of such sickening crap, and vote for it in their droves.

Some other countries do too, but then you have places like Canada who not only buck that trend, but escaped the worst of the recession trend as a result.

Coincidence ? Maybe But I suspect it's what happens when people refuse to support con-men who tell realists to commit suicide.

nesf

HellsAngel wrote: »

Well when you look at how they returned the most corrupt, rotten, cronyist govt for 14 years - you can be forgiven for thinking their is something wrong with them

And it's this kind of sensationalism that is the problem I think with anti-FFers getting through to potential FF voters. The last Government had nothing on Haughey for corruption, rottenness etc. Corruption wasn't even a problem with the Government really, it was just something alleged about Bertie and even then it was small fry not money being paid for political decisions like with the Planning Issues. FF of the 90s and 00s had nothing on the FF of the 70s and 80s in terms of dodgy dealings.

FF got decimated because they mishandled the economy badly and ended up in office at the exact wrong time. They weren't decimated as a result of a mass upswelling against corruption or cronyism no matter how much some anti-FF people would dearly love that to be.

dsmythy

thebman wrote: »

Does someone really need to explain why they joined a party?

Anyway "working full-time in the Irish film industry" sort of implies to me that this area requires/gets government funding for a lot of projects so he joined the party in power to align himself to this for his career and not because of any idealistic reasons.

I wonder what his thoughts are about the undercutting of wages in said industry...

raymon

R

nesf wrote: »

And it's this kind of sensationalism that is the problem I think with anti-FFers getting through to potential FF voters. The last Government had nothing on Haughey for corruption, rottenness etc. Corruption wasn't even a problem with the Government really, it was just something alleged about Bertie and even then it was small fry not money being paid for political decisions like with the Planning Issues. FF of the 90s and 00s had nothing on the FF of the 70s and 80s in terms of dodgy dealings.

FF got decimated because they mishandled the economy badly and ended up in office at the exact wrong time. They weren't decimated as a result of a mass upswelling against corruption or cronyism no matter how much some anti-FF people would dearly love that to be.

You are completely wrong here.

FF were as dishonest as they were incompetent.

A rag tag group of dishonest clowns .

This is widely documented...... I will not bore everyone with links , we have all seen the evidence

Rotten rotten rotten

nesf

raymon wrote: »

R

You are completely wrong here.

FF were as dishonest as they were incompetent.

A rag tag group of dishonest clowns .

This is widely documented...... I will not bore everyone with links , we have all seen the evidence

Rotten rotten rotten

Compared to Haughey? Honestly, I've never been convinced that Bertie came even close.

phantom_lord

Nobody in Ogra even has an answer for what FF stand for.

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

. The last Government had nothing on Haughey for corruption, rottenness etc. Corruption wasn't even a problem with the Government really, it was just something alleged about Bertie....

It wasn't just alleged; he admitted to nepotism - "I gave them jobs because they were my friends" - and for some reason very few of us went "hang on a sec"....not even the papers highlighted this confession (assuming, that is, that anything Ahern ever uttered could be believed)

The other issue with that "article" is that a lot of posts are being deleted while horrendous claims like the one slurring people's dads and assuming that objectors to FF were boozing teenagers by the canal are left in place! It's astonishing and it really, really questions the objectivity and credibility of thejournal.ie!

I've left a few comments on the page and deleted the app - definitely wouldn't rely on it for truth or balance after reading that page and the posts that they selectively deleted while leaving far more objectionable ones there!

Wolfe Tone

I agree Liam, the Journal most certainly has an agenda, not to mention low journalistic standards.


Its coverage of the Popes visit to Spain was remarkably one sided for a long time for instance.

raymon

nesf wrote: »

Compared to Haughey? Honestly, I've never been convinced that Bertie came even close.

It wasn't just Bertie , you know yourself that the dishonesty had spread throughout FF.


In any case to compare anyone to Haughey is not fair. Corruption is corruption whether it is 1,000 100,000 or 10,000,000.

thebman

After reading the comments and the article, I have to say that I just think that it shows very poor standards from thejournal.ie to allow such nonsense on their website.

To do this properly, they should have allowed a member of each party to do the same. Why only Ogra FF at the start of college when they are trying to attract members? Shows an extreme bias and an obvious agenda TBH.

Did Ogra FF just pay for it? It reads like an advertisement to me and the number of pro FF's in the comments far outweighs the usual number seen on most articles on the website and they aren't the usual commenters on thejournal.ie's articles again showing that this whole thing is pre-planned advertising for Ogra FF by thejournal.ie IMO.

I'm definitely going to have to stop recommending it as a news source to people now and try to read it less often. Voting with my clicks on this one.

Pride Fighter

Scofflaw wrote: »

OK - strictly playing devil's advocate here.

First, say one considers Fianna Fáil to be a legitimate political party despite their recent record - 'legitimate' in the sense that they're legal as a party. So joining is a matter of preference rather than insanity.

Second, Fianna Fáil have a very impressive electoral record, and a very large potential power base in the country. There are a lot of disgruntled ex-Fianna Fáil voters out there, but perhaps in better circumstances (for the party, that is) they could be tempted back within the fold again. Brand recognition is 100% with Irish voters, which is a big plus, even if the brand is currently toxic.

So one might say that what's needed is to rehabilitate the party - to stop it being a party of gombeen economics and chancerism. OK, or being seen that way, anyway.

Has there ever been a better time to do that than now? No, not really. With all the previous power structures within Fianna Fáil in disarray, there's a genuine opportunity there for younger recruits to make the party over. All the potential Fine Gael seats are full, but most of the potential Fianna Fáil seats are empty. And many of the old names are toxic too.

And their policies will hardly stand in the way of someone young and ambitious joining them, because, hey, they don't really have any. So if you weren't particularly policy-driven, but still wanted to embark on a political career, this is quite a good time to join. And if Fianna Fáil comes off the ropes after a few more years of austere Fine Gael/Labour government, you're in with a chance of rising high along with them. In that sense, nowhere to go but up.

Not exactly a noble set of motives, I'll grant you, but relatively coherent.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Fianna Fail are dead and buried. Irish politics will be a 3 horse race between FG, Labour and SF in the future. SF have been redeemed in the eyes of the electorate at the last GE. This will continue into 2014 where they will take at least 80 county council seats off FF. FF will never be redeemed as a party off anyone that has had family or friends leave due to FF destroying this country, that is most of the population. The sooner they're gone, the better.

Dirk Gently

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Fianna Fail are dead and buried. Irish politics will be a 3 horse race between FG, Labour and SF in the future. SF have been redeemed in the eyes of the electorate at the last GE. This will continue into 2014 where they will take at least 80 county council seats off FF. FF will never be redeemed as a party off anyone that has had family or friends leave due to FF destroying this country, that is most of the population. The sooner they're gone, the better.

I sympathise but unfortunately that's a bit of a naive emotional assessment. The real elephant in the room when it comes to Irish politics is the Irish population ourselves. As a people we simply don't demand standards, transparency and accountability. While the primitive tribalism of voting FF or FG because of civil war household allegiance is slowly fading, we still have a stale and toxic 2 and a half party clientele system and I don't see that changing.

FG + Lab might get 2 terms but FF will be back. Their arrogance and hard necks will see the party survives and they know if they keep their heads down long enough people will vote for them again once people tire of FG+LAB. That's the nature of Irish politics, people (the majority of) rotate the 2 and a half parties based on short term anger rather than a willingness to engage the process and work for something better.

More so than even a new party, what we need is genuine political reform. Until we fix our systems of government and until people actually want to do that then we will always have a FF / FG see-saw and people will always chose one or the other based on who messes up at any particular point in time.

I would love to see FF disband and leave a vacuum in opposition for a new political party to oppose FG/LAB but it's just not going to happen. FF will be back and it will be our own fault for accepting such low standards. We're more comfortable moaning about politics than actually trying to achieve a real republic.

Laminations

nesf wrote: »

Compared to Haughey? Honestly, I've never been convinced that Bertie came even close.

Nah, nowhere close :rolleyes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1537400/Ahern-signed-blank-cheques-for-Haughey.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/highly-unlikely-bertie-didnt-know-where-blank-cheques-were-going-65920.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-ahern-years/most-devious-of-them-all-was-a-salute-from-haughey-1359902.html

jmayo

Seloth wrote: »

...
Most people join for genuine reasons and it troubles me that you hold such a views and hatred.

Yeah reasons like personal advancement and the advancement of family and friends at the epxense of the taxpayers.

Maybe some of us hate ff and it's memebrs because for years they have screwed us over all for their own benefit.

headmaster wrote: »

I'm an ex chairman of a Fianna Fail cumann, i love your innocence. I am 3rd generation FF, steeped in the party as much as anyone could possibly be. I'll tell you this for nothing, THE FIANNA FAIL PARTY IS FINISHED. When i think of all the people who did so much work over the years for FF, only to see a mockery made of it by Ahern and Haughy + all their cohorts. When times started to get tough, they took the money and ran. It didn't matter that the country had not got the money, they screwed all of us, put their friends in places of power, screwed everyone, laughed at us, then decided we couldn't touch them in an election if they ran away with obscene pensions. I, or any ex FF member I know, will NEVER forgive them. They have poisoned the FF name, it can never be used again in any election, they have betrayed the party and the country. I am ashamed of them. Like a good lad, see some sense, get out there and form a new political party for 21st century Ireland and be proud to do so. There are thousands of people waiting patiently for this to happen, just make sure you don't take any advise from people involved at any senior level in the old, ruined, betrayed FF hierarchy.

Fine speech, but when did you leave the party ?
If you felt that haughey and his cohorts were wrong I presume you left around the time of Dessie O'Malley ?

Otherwise if you stayed in the party during the haughey years, during the years of the tribunal revelations about haughey, lawlor, burke, flynn, etc and the revelations about bertie's dodgy accounts then you are a hypocrit.
Your loyalty helped these people do those things, your loyalty to these people as leaders helped bring this state to it's knees.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure. Fianna Fáil's core values over the last 20 years appear to have been getting into and retaining power, nothing more - and that's really 'nothing more' on a scale which isn't usually the case in politics.

Last 20 years ???
Try the last 40 years.

nesf wrote: »

And it's this kind of sensationalism that is the problem I think with anti-FFers getting through to potential FF voters. The last Government had nothing on Haughey for corruption, rottenness etc. Corruption wasn't even a problem with the Government really, it was just something alleged about Bertie and even then it was small fry not money being paid for political decisions like with the Planning Issues. FF of the 90s and 00s had nothing on the FF of the 70s and 80s in terms of dodgy dealings.

FF got decimated because they mishandled the economy badly and ended up in office at the exact wrong time. They weren't decimated as a result of a mass upswelling against corruption or cronyism no matter how much some anti-FF people would dearly love that to be.

What they didn't have in outright corruption they made up for in profligate spending and wastage.
The arrogance and distain they showed both to the taxpayers of this country and to the EU has us where we are today.

BTW did not haughery once utter that ahern was the cutest of them all.
That is some glowing reference from the chief theif.

HellsAngel

raymon wrote: »

R

You are completely wrong here.

FF were as dishonest as they were incompetent.

A rag tag group of dishonest clowns .

This is widely documented...... I will not bore everyone with links , we have all seen the evidence

Rotten rotten rotten

Totally agree. yesterday I statted on post #7 that " FFers are like an incurable drug addict, sooner or later they will return to their old ways. ". And all I had to wait for was one day I think this deserves a thread of it's own but anyway -

FF TDs defy Martin to pocket cabinet pay-offs

SENIOR Fianna Fáil TDs have defied an order by party leader Micheál Martin not to accept ministerial severance payments on top of their TD salaries. Limerick City TD Willie O’Dea has taken €8,500 in “step-down” payments this year, on top of his Dáil salary of €92,000. He claimed €54,000 in golden handshake payments in 2010 after being forced to resign as minister for defence in February 2010.

Mayo TD Dara Calleary, who Mr Martin recently appointed to a presidential election strategy committee, has been awarded €8,802 in step-down payments this year, on top of his €92,000 salary. Cork North Central TD and spokesman on health, Billy Kelleher, has received the same sum. Neither man was available for comment last night.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ff-tds-pocket-cabinet-pay-offs-165164.html#ixzz1VqkWOaZ3

So Ogra FF, the new beiginning ??

dsmythy

I'm not sure how people think the third largest party in the state is finished?

Laminations

dsmythy wrote: »

I'm not sure how people think the third largest party in the state is finished?

DDT was one of the most well-known, widely used pesticides. When people realised how toxic it was, DDT was finished

HellsAngel

dsmythy wrote: »

I'm not sure how people think the third largest party in the state is finished?

Their afraid to run a candidate for the President. They have only one seat in Dublin which they will soon lose. Their in debt with no sign of plenty of money in auld brown paper bags from their old 'friends'. Their surviving on the old rural vote in 4 and 5 seater constituency's, yes they have a bright future.

Scofflaw

HellsAngel wrote: »

Their afraid to run a candidate for the President. They have only one seat in Dublin which they will soon lose. Their in debt with no sign of plenty of money in auld brown paper bags from their old 'friends'. Their surviving on the old rural vote in 4 and 5 seater constituency's, yes they have a bright future.

It's fitting that the party that managed to leave the country up to its ears in debt after the longest and largest boom in its history is itself in debt.

cordially,
Scofflaw

thebman

HellsAngel wrote: »

Their afraid to run a candidate for the President. They have only one seat in Dublin which they will soon lose. Their in debt with no sign of plenty of money in auld brown paper bags from their old 'friends'. Their surviving on the old rural vote in 4 and 5 seater constituency's, yes they have a bright future.

They could yet have a bright future if the media are publishing promotional pieces like this one. Someone was posting on thejournal.ie comments that TV3 and RTE have shows lined up for the Autumn/Winter period about FF.

I don't know how accurate that is though. I'd be further disappointed by the standard of journalism in this country if they create promotional shows for one party in the state and ignore all the others.

A documentary on the fall of FF might be expected but very hard to be objective if creating one.

steelcityblues

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I remember last year in college they had a stall on clubs and socs day... If you joined they gave you a copy of the proclamation, I took great pleasure in detailing to the guy running the stall how FF should, rather than give away the document, read it and attempt to uphold the sentiments therein.

I noticed a lot of people joined OFF and FG for the stuff! (FG gave away a copy of Michael Collins)

I think college political parties in general are a bad thing.

Most people only join for the p1ss ups, and actually have very little knowledge about politics or the world in general.

blahfckingblah

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's fitting that the party that managed to leave the country up to its ears in debt after the longest and largest boom in its history is itself in debt.

cordially,
Scofflaw

i agree totally and the only problem with their complete implosion would be that fine gael would have a monopoly until the smaller partys grow (i dont think labour will get even near the same vote next time round)

blahfckingblah

steelcityblues wrote: »

I think college political parties in general are a bad thing.

Most people only join for the p1ss ups, and actually have very little knowledge about politics or the world in general.

yea this is probably true i spent a long time convincing people in college with me to vote i even had to tell them how to regester and things like that there really is a lot of ignorance to politics amongst students