Home Automation

delboyfagan

Just building new house and wondering if you have any thoughts on home automation. I had never really heard about it before and have now just got basic ideas.

Anybody able to let me know about what services I should consider before asking for a quote.
Thks,

Del

beyondpassive

KNX seems to be the way to go. Home entertainment and building management with power and comms on the same cable.

maxer

Home Automation should start with effective control of your heating and lighting and if your budget extends then you can look at integrating some Audio Visual

KNX is good because it gives you a choice of over 200 manufacturers to choose products from to suit either your technical or cost requirements and it is very flexible to add products later as you may need. Systems start from a few hundred euro.

I've been working with KNX for over 8 years now with lots of commercial and residential projects examples. Send me a PM and i will gladly give you some advice.

GerryP

Hi maxer,

I'm currently in the middle of a new build and getting close to electrical first fix and want to try and get the "plumbing" right so I can add automation at a later date when funds are available. I'm planning on putting in Cat6 data points in every room and running this all back to a central hub. Really though I'm relying on the advice of my electrician and bits I've seen on boards, but what should I be considering?

All advice greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
GerryP

maxer

GerryP

Cat 5 at data-points is good for connectivity of multimedia devices like video, internet and telephone etc. If you want to look at Home automation for lighting and heating control then you will also have to look at planing to also have it at the light switch/thermostat points.

Typically you will have to place switch actuators centrally to switch or dim the lighting circuits. They can be located in a larger fuseboard or if you have a larger house then you can place a second small fuseboard up in the attic to make the wiring less expensive and link it to main one with a power supply and a knx cable.

The knx cable from the switches is also linked to the fuseboards and this allows you send a command from a light switch to the actuators. Typically for lighitng you would have several buttons and these can be set to allow you to re-program them yourself using scene save functions. Also tiny presence detectors can automatically control lighting in and toilet areas and only switch on when there is not enough natural light available. These cost less than the light switches and work fantastic and provide a level of energy saving.

If you plan to install it later then you can wire as normal and in the future buy a KNX light switch with the actuator built into it that will allow you to retrofit from a standard one. KNX and power cable can be installed in the same electrical conduit.

For the heating you can add a thermostat to match the light switch on the same knx cable and place a another actuator to control the boiler and zone pumps or manifold. Again the thermostats will communicate with the heating system to accurately control the heating when required.

There is an intruder alarm system available locally that also has a KNX interface. The alarm is installed by an PSA installer and it can use the alarm window contacts to reduce the heating set-points when you open a window and when you set the alarm leaving the house everything can switch off. it is also possible to use the alarm PIRs to control the lighitng thus keeping the equipment costs down.

Also there are low KNX interfaces to control your Home Cinema from and iphone type or android device or dedicated interfaces that allow it to interface with more expensive audiovisual systems.

Send me a message and i can send you some examples of some new installs and retrofits that may give you a better idea.

BryanF

maxer, from your piece above, can you confirm. for a really simple new house system or retro-fitting solution for basic centrally controlled heating management, you need:

maxer wrote: »

• .. The knx cable from the switches .. linked to the fuseboard..

• For the heating you can add a thermostat to match the light switch on the same knx cable ..
• and place a another actuator to control the boiler and zone pumps or manifold ..

thanks for your help. is there a completely wireless system for something as straight forward? how would I work out a rough price for this?

maxer

If you are building, good Insulation should be first on your spending list for sure.
As an an example project:
a house with 7 rooms each with a radiator or underfloor heating zones :

KNX cable (cat 5 will work over short runs)
1 KNX power supply
1 central switch actuator with 8 channels
7 Room temperature controllers (or less depending on the actual level of zone temperature control required)
7 Radiator valves actuators
each of the valve actuators are wired back to the switch actuator and the temperature controllers in the rooms are also daisy-chained on the KNX cable.

Comfort/on and standby/off set-points are programmed in based on the room type and location with some time schedules, boost times and each of the temperature controllers will switch on and off the water to the radiator/underfloor heating zone with the boiler & zone pump to meet the set-point temperature. So if the room temperature is 20 degrees and the heating is scheduled to switch to comfort/on (20 degrees) then the boiler will not switch on as there is no requirement for heat and so on. You can also place priority levels on the heating zones to avoid the boiler switching on if only a spare room calls for heat.

Also you can program in an offset for the summer months that will reduce the overall set-points by 1-2 degrees based on the date or outside temperature to save more energy. So in March the comfort/on temperature set-point would be 20 degrees but in July it would be 18 and in October back to 20 etc.


Also there is a good wireless system available called Synco Living it is great for retrofits as you can place wireless water valve controllers (for example on radiators) and thermostats with a central controller and it has a KNX connection for connecting with lighting control etc if required.

If you PM me the amount of rooms and proposed type of heating i can send you some cost examples and info on the synco etc.

Tifosi

delboyfagan wrote: »

Just building new house and wondering if you have any thoughts on home automation. I had never really heard about it before and have now just got basic ideas.

Anybody able to let me know about what services I should consider before asking for a quote.
Thks,

Del

All these fan dangle things are great in principal, and are only as good as the installation, commissioning and ease of use.

Most people don't use half the, " technology" installed.

What you should be asking yourself is how would you like to operate your house, lighting, power, heating, music, TV, telephones, data.

Remember the oven we all bought with 8 settings, and we only use 2, the microwave with a grill setting that is never used. The key is to keep it simple.

Technology is only as good as the person that controls it.

creedp

Tifosi wrote: »

All these fan dangle things are great in principal, and are only as good as the installation, commissioning and ease of use.

Most people don't use half the, " technology" installed.

What you should be asking yourself is how would you like to operate your house, lighting, power, heating, music, TV, telephones, data.

Remember the oven we are bought with 8 settings, and we only use 2, the microwave with a grill setting that is never used. The key is to keep it simple.

Technology is only as good as the person that controls it.

I'm glad someone else is thinking along same wavelenght. I was afraid I was the only one who was living in the stoneage when it come to all this technology. It does indeed all sound impressive but as Tifosi says above how many people would actually know how it all works not to mention setting it up optimally for their particular circumstances and adjusting it over time as lifestyles change. Btw this is coming from a guy who can't even get his head around wireless broadband/phone services and what is a router and an ADC:). All too often people complain that they can't set up their TV's/Sky box properly - I'd hate to see what they would do if they were let loose on this automation stuff.

SAINTRON

Tifosi wrote: »

Technology is only as good as the person that controls it.

Point taken, but if its an available option and proven to increase performance in whatever capacity then it should be embraced, explored and understood so that its potential can be realised. Generally people (moreso in Ireland for some reason) are quick to knock technologies where there is no tangible result or end product, resulting in a 'it'll never work' attitude. Ambient Intelligence is here to stay and maybe at the pricier end of the scale at the moment but fast forward 3 or 4 years and it will be the norm in new builds.

Do-more

I've looked into this on a basic level as I am about to start a build and want to future proof things as much as possible.

I'm not sure if my thinking is correct so maybe some who are more expert would care to comment.

It seems like a good idea to have a wired network to everywhere in the house that there might be a TV in the future because as of yet at least video seems to be much better delivered by wire rather than wireless.

So I intend to run two cores of cat5e to all TV points and maybe 5 or 6 cores to the main TV in the living room so that the various equipment can be shared around the house. I'll have a hub under the stairs with a micro server.

I'm not bothered about lighting controls and haven't decided on an alarm system yet, is there anything to look out for in terms of an alarm system? Not bothered about a full monitored system but something that can dial a few phones.

If I can I will put in trunking with pull wires so I can upgrade cables in the future.

Any advice please?

Tifosi

SAINTRON wrote: »

Point taken, but if its an available option and proven to increase performance in whatever capacity then it should be embraced, explored and understood so that its potential can be realised. Generally people (moreso in Ireland for some reason) are quick to knock technologies where there is no tangible result or end product, resulting in a 'it'll never work' attitude. Ambient Intelligence is here to stay and maybe at the pricier end of the scale at the moment but fast forward 3 or 4 years and it will be the norm in new builds.

"Intelligent houses" will not be the norm for new builds, especially in Ireland. It's all buzz words. In the heady days of the " boom" people jump on any and every bandwagon, and had to have the latest, gadet regardless of want it purported to do, or moreover didn't do.

In an average Irish home, how sophisticated do we require the lighting to be, we don't really, dimming here and there maybe. Zoned heating, stats in every room , simple controller.

sas

Tifosi wrote: »

"Intelligent houses" will not be the norm for new builds, especially in Ireland. It's all buzz words. In the heady days of the " boom" people jump on any and every bandwagon, and had to have the latest, gadet regardless of want it purported to do, or moreover didn't do.

In an average Irish home, how sophisticated do we require the lighting to be, we don't really, dimming here and there maybe. Zoned heating, stats in every room , simple controller.

Sorry Saintron, I'm with Tifosi on this. Not a prayer of this becoming anything close to standard on homes here within the next 10 - 15 years. That screams of sales pitch and nothing more. The average house builder here sees meeting the building regs as the gold standard on things like insulation which has tangible savings. If there's no money for more insulation I'd say automation would fall lower down the priority list.

I'm building certified passive and also work in IT. You can take it that I'm prepared to try new things and am comfortable with technology. I want multiroom audio for example, I've seen enough of Sonos to know that it will comfortably meet my needs without being unduly expensive. Plus it doesn't require custom installers. I can go online or into 1 of their stockists and buy off the shelf. Bought the starter kit last sunday. 15 mins after I opened the box I had music streaming from my pc to our living room. Anyone can set this up. Multiroom tv I also see value in.

Automation such as lighting I personally feel is tacky and very MTV cribs. It is also valueless. Given the way some of the automated lighting solutions are wired also you have no fallback option if the controller failed unless you double up on the wiring to your light switches e.g. standard wiring and cat5\6.

Automating heating systems etc is mostly irrelevant for me, you can't automate a solid fuel stove.Feel free to prove me wrong on this one!

I went to see the demo showroom for the Control4 system and got a price for 4 zone audio, 4 zone tv (hdmi splitter) and a basic home network. 22k. If nothing else it was worth it for the laugh.

My opinion in summary, if the pieces can be bought off the shelf in a local store and installed by any electrician then it may start to take hold. As long as its supplied by small specialist installers it will stay a small enthusiast market.

maxer

There is a big difference between a simple effective control system for heating and lighting and control4 or cribs style installations. and a massive cost difference. I also agree with simplicity. Also all the actuators for all the circuits have a manual over-ride, but KNX is noted for its reliability over the past 20 years in the market. Also it dosent bother me if anyone else installs a system as 99.9% of my work in commercial installations. i am glad to give any information i have to hand.

I am not into fancy tvs or music systems, ipads or iphones. I have a sky box and a tv and thats it. I do however have a simple heating and lighting control system installed which i am basing my personal experience on. The lighting has presence detectors (absence upstairs) with low energy lamps all round. So personally I am convinced with simple well set up, cost effective technology. You could say forget about a sat-nav when you could use a map (im sure you will get there in the end :-))

In the last 5 years we have seldom touched a light switch or adjusted a thermostat in our home as it works well for us automatically as it was set up and the house is never to hot or lights are never on for more than required. it cost about 2K for all the KNX lighting and heating sensors etc and interfaced to the alarm to switch everything off when we leave the house. I am a building automation engineer for almost 20 years and did initially put quite a lot of research into getting the best set-up for us.

We renovated the house 5 years ago when i installed it, but i first packed the house with installation. Also i found before the works that every morning and evening the boiler would run for an hour regardless of the temperature even though there was thermostat valves on the rads an the house was either freezing or roasting. Now our gas bill for 6 months in the years is almost the standing charge.

Calibos

It might be cost effective when you are fitting it yourself but that 2000 becaomes 10000 when you add labour

I'm with most of the lads here. I'm reasonably tech savvy/aware, have all our pictures/music/Dvd's on a central server and accessible by 6 XBMC clients around the house. I ran 2xCat5e & 2xCoax to every room from the eaves storage area in converted attic. That was as far as I went though. It all sounded very 21st century but the more I investigated and started adding up the cost the more this Home Automation thing rang hollow for me. Its a very expensive way of saving me the hassle of getting up off my @rse to adjust the thermostat( which I don't really need to do anyway with TRV's on the rads) or to flick on a lightswitch(which I don't really need to do with a cheap IR lightswitch) I think its more suited to a McMansion than the average Irish home. I can see the benefit of adjusting the heating from a touchscreen or iPhone to save myself walking to the other wing of the house or presence detecting lights saving the long walks .

If I won the Lotto? You bet I'd fill the house with that stuff. Spending more on Home Automation than my total electrical rewire,replumb and replaster combined? No thanks. I'll wait till all the gadgets are wireless and available in Woodies for a tenner a pop.

PPD

Delboyfagan, did you do follow up and do any system after?

Thunderbird2

Could anyone give me some advice on the control4 systems?
Want to be able to control lights .security and cameras from an ipad and control4 has an app but needs a master controller to work.
Any ideas on prices for supply only?
Thanks

rob_

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

Could anyone give me some advice on the control4 systems?
Want to be able to control lights .security and cameras from an ipad and control4 has an app but needs a master controller to work.
Any ideas on prices for supply only?
Thanks

There is no supply only, its a custom install product. Google control4 and you will see various dealers who can give you a price. I would recommend using a platinum rated dealer, which basically means they are approved by control4.

obonner

Hi,

Anybody know roughly how much a HC300 controller is? I know it is custom install product but am looking into it as an AV integration platform but wondering if it's way off the mark. Not a quote now mind - a general idea!

rob_

obonner wrote: »

Hi,


Anybody know roughly how much a HC300 controller is? I know it is custom install product but am looking into it as an AV integration platform but wondering if it's way off the mark. Not a quote now mind - a general idea!

Afaik it's between €1500 and €2k, but im not sure if that includes programming.

sas

I got a quote for a Control4 setup last year.

Unit price excluding programming and vat for the HC300 is listed at €1136.

maxer

Take a look at Iridium mobile. It starts at about 200 euro. They currently have a version for Apple and Windows and met them in Amsterdam last week and they are just about to launch the Android version which i have been testing.
It will control KNX directly for lighting and many more lighting systems. or also you can connect to a multiple AV controllers throughout your home wired or wireless. (about 200 euro) if you just want to control your AV equipment. It is a fully customizable, very easy to program and also integrates your CCTV cameras etc to show them on your iPad. PM me if you need more info as i have been using it for over the last year in many projects with some beautiful interfaces.