who would be king?

yogi beer

hey all,
Was chatting with some mates last night (deep, emotional, drunk chats), and was wondering, who would be the high king of Ireland today if the Irish monarchy wasn't ended?
I know the O'Connor clan was the last to rule Ireland (Rory O'Connor if I am not mistaken?), but is there a long lost decendant who is the heir to the thrown, and does anyone know who he is or how he can be found?
It'd be interesting to know who.
cheers guys, have a great day!

Snickers Man

I dunno but I got a letter a few days ago from a man in China who said that somebody with the same surname as myself had been killed in a road accident and died intestate shortly after depositing $10 million in his bank.

Was I a relative and would I like to claim it? If so he will help me through the paperwork for a trifling commission of 50%.

Doubtless you could entice a few O'Connors to come forward with a similar good-news story!

CDfm

The O'Conor Don is traditionally thought to be the strongest claimant but Ireland was never a proper nation state ,nor, did it have a constitutional style moanarchy.

Interesting question though how did the last high king acquire his title

They did though manage to hold on to their estates in part

http://www.landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=273

Financial probs led to the family home Clonalis being sold to another branch of the family in the late 19 century and you can stay there

http://www.clonalis.com/genealogy.html

Obituary for the last O'Conor Don

The O'Conor Don

12:00AM BST 21 Jul 2000

CommentsComment

Head of an ancient family, inspector for the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and Master of Beagles

THE O'CONOR DON, who has died in Dublin aged 88, was the head of a native Irish family of great antiquity descended from the pre-Norman Kings of Connaght and last High Kings of Ireland; but his own immediate background and upbringing was English.

Denis Armar O'Conor was born in London in January 1912. His father Charles William O'Conor, the nephew of Charles Owen O'Conor Don who bore the arms of Ireland at the Coronation of King Edward VII, lived at Croft Castle in Herefordshire. His mother Evelyn was the daughter of Admiral Armar Lowry-Corry, a younger son of the Earl of Belmore.

The young Denis O'Conor won a classical bursary to Downside where he was captain of boxing. He went on to Sandhurst, was commissioned in the Lincolnshire Regiment and served in the East.

In India he was a crack polo player; in China he trained horses, one of which, Kilrea, won several races in Hong Kong. A wild and spirited young man with an eye for the girls, he enjoyed Army life in the East to the limit and often beyond.

He married, in 1936, Elizabeth Marris, a clergyman's daughter, but the marriage did not long outlast the birth of their only son. His wife married subsequently James Cameron, the journalist. O'Conor then married, in 1943, Rosemary O'Connell-Hewett, a great grand-daughter of Daniel O'Connell, the 19th-century Irish Liberator.

O'Conor was wounded in a training accident early in the Second World War and never saw active service. He retired with the rank of Major in 1946 and moved to live in Roundwood, Co Wicklow, where his father had bought a farm.

He was not well off and he abandoned farming to become a representative for a firm that sold tractors to farmers. Later he became a dedicated inspector for the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. In his spare time he was Master of the Delgany Beagles and was a regular judge at shows. His love of dogs and his way with them was legendary.

Because he was divorced, O'Conor was precluded from following the family tradition of becoming a member of the Order of Malta. But he joined and eventually became Grand Prior of the Irish priory of the Oecumenical Order of St Lazarus of Jerusalem, which contributes to the relief of leprosy. His own charitable impulses found a practical outlet in teaching disabled children to ride.

O'Conor succeeded as O'Conor Don on the death in 1981 of his second cousin, Father Charles O'Conor, the former provincial of the Jesuit Order in Ireland. Whereas the Jesuits in their austere way had insisted that Fr O'Conor not call himself O'Conor Don, Denis O'Conor acclaimed the title with relish, and enjoyed its prerogatives to the full.

He became chairman of historical and genealogical societies, a regular presiding presence at community events and was even involved in tourist promotion.

He was founder member of the Council of Irish Chieftains, consisting of the descendants of the few princely families whose pedigrees have been authenticated by the Chief Herald of Ireland. But for all O'Conor's lineage and obvious love of Ireland, he would still have been counted by most people there as more English than Irish.

Since O'Conor's father had sold the remainder interest in the entailed family estate, he was never to inherit Clonalis, the family seat in Roscommon, which is now the residence of Pyers O'Conor Nash, the nephew of the Jesuit O'Conor Don. But Denis O'Conor's son Kieran, an archaeologist, has acquired, with a view to restoration, the ruins of Balanagare, the home of his ancestor Charles O'Conor, the 18th-century antiquarian.

Denis O'Conor was a big man with a booming voice and a rugged ruddy countenance. Larger than life, he was friendly to all comers, rejoiced in convivial gatherings and had a fair appreciation of Irish whiskey. He could quote poetry at length and had a good knowledge of history, especially that of his own family.

He is survived by his wife and three sons.

The current one is an investment fund manager or banker

The eldest, Desmond, who lives in Sussex and is regional director of Dresdener Kleinwort Benson for South America, succeeds as O'Conor Don.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1349558/The-OConor-Don.html

Manach

Let us not forget the Kings over the water: Jacobite_succession

CDfm

Manach wrote: »

Let us not forget the Kings over the water: Jacobite_succession

So its King Desmond Vs King Francis Vs Queen Elisabeth

Who else ???

Corsendonk

Channel 4 did a programme based on the Plantagent claim to the English throne on evidence that Edward IV was not the son of Duke Richard and then traced who would be the Plantagent King today. I don't know how the claim stood up but was pretty funny to know that they traced the other family line to a sheep farmer in Oz.

The Evidence

Jones' evidence centres around a document located in Rouen Cathedral, Seine Martime, France. This document, Jones claims, shows that Edward the IV's parents at the time of his conception were 160 kilometres apart and that through a liaison of Lady Cecily Neville's she produced a natural son born officially on the 28th April 1442 at Rouen.

"Edward's 'father', Richard Duke of York, was fighting the French at Pontoise, near Paris, while Edward's mother, Lady Cicely Neville - based at Rouen - was apparently deeply engrossed in the company of a local archer. In the five-week period when conception could have taken place, Edward's royal father was a good five days' march away. The court was rife with whispers of an affair. King Louis XI of France is recorded as shouting about Edward: "His name is not King Edward - everybody knows his name is Blaybourne!' (the surname of the French archer). A concerted campaign was launched by the family, hoping to stifle such rumours. The royal flaks even suggested that conception had taken place at Hatfield Chase, South Yorkshire in May 1440 before the royal parents set sail for France, an 11-month pregnancy!"5

Modern historians generally agree that Edward IV was born at Rouen on the 28th April 1442.2,3 where he was christened in a side chapel of the cathedral. George his brother, by contrast, was christened in the main part of Rouen Cathedral. It is George who according to the alternative line of succession was the rightful inheritor of the kingship.

Edward IV Plantagenet is described2 as being six feet tall, it has been suggested that his height came from his mother. At first he was outstandingly handsome and clean-shaven with straight brown hair worn long, he was always interested in social life, 'a party goer'. He was a sound, ruthless soldier, competent financial manager and showed an interest in disseminating knowledge. In time he became gluttonous and obese. Edward married a commoner, Elizabeth Woodville, the daughter of a knight and this caused controversy with Warwick The King-Maker and the nobility who briefly deposed him. His dissolute sexual practices eventually diseased him and he died of a 'surfeit' [an over indulgence of eating and drinking]. Among his mistresses were Jane Shore, the lady of the Robin Hood ballads, and Elizabeth Lacy.3 Following Edward's death Jane Shore became the mistress of Thomas Grey and then William Hastings.

As such then, Jones is pinning his hopes on the fact, that as he sees it, Edward IV was the product of the Neville line and a person who Jones has identified as a French archer. If this is correct then the presently accepted line of succession is based upon a Frenchman! Sacre bleu! Shades of William the Conqueror and the Angevin Empire. No wonder Elizabeth I referred to the French as frogs.4 All hail King Michael!

The Channel 4 programme went to air in Britain in the first week of January 2004, those of us who listened to the evidence find it credible if lacking strong support, the doubt is there. Antagonists to the alternative line point out that it would have been logistically possible for Richard Duke of York to have returned briefly from battle to Rouen.

http://www.churchofgoddiaspora.com/the_true_english_monarch.htm

goose2005

The only king to have any real power over the whole island was Brian Boru; and primogeniture wasn't used by the Irish anyway

CDfm

Here is a link to the Irish Chiefs

http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/index.htm

The Standing Council of Irish Chiefs and Chieftains




Irish Chiefs and President of Ireland

Members of the Irish Standing Council of Chiefs and Chieftains meeting with President Mary Robinson in October 1991
(the hoaxer Terence MacCarthy 'Mór' is at far left, Chief Herald Begley who recognised him is at far right,
and MacCarthy's grand-uncle Maguire 'of Fermanagh' is fourth from left with briefcase)

http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/councilchiefs.html

Bannasidhe

The concept of 'kingship' as generally understood had no meaning in Ireland as primogeniture was never the basis for the selection of clan leaders. Indeed, until the Middle Ages most chieftains were accorded the title Rí but this was eventually dropped except for provincial and high kings - for a very scholarly examination of this process I would recommend Katherine Simms From Kings to Warlords.

Essentially in Ireland, under what became referred to (by the Tudors) as the Tanistry system each clan chose its leader from within a group called the derbfine - 4 male generations descended from a previous chieftain. Within each province, theoretically, the leader of most powerful of these clans would claim the title of Rí - although in practice it tended to remain under the control of a small number of clans whose various septs would contend with each other. The most powerful of the provincial kings would in turn vie to become Ard Rí.

In the case of the Uí Conchobhairs of Connacht for example - they contended with the Uí Briain for provincial power plus various branches of the Uí Neill for the high kingship. The also sowed the seeds of their own destruction by continual internecine warfare among not just the different septs which were later to give rise to the titles of Uí Conchobhair Don, Uí Conchobhair Rua and Uí Conchobhair Sligigh but also within close family connections - father against son, brother against brother etc. Indeed, it was as a direct consequence of this faction fighting that the de Burghs were eventually able to gain control over much of Connacht - William Concur de Burgh (not to be confused with William the Conqueror) was employed as a mercenary by several of the competing factions - as was Hugh de Lacy. The Annals of Loch Cé charts the upheavals which occurred across Connacht in the 11th/12th/13th centuries.

Gaelic Ireland never had a high king without opposition, nor did it ever come close to adopting primogeniture or unifying. So in reality we can 'thank' Henry VIII for the creation of the Kingdom of Ireland and say with some certainty that the first monarch who could truly claim to rule all of Ireland was James IV - mainly thanks to the groundwork laid under Elizabeth I.