A good Crossfit experiment

Hanley

I know CF gets some stick here, but every now and again something interesting comes out of it. I found a thread from 2007 today where a dude did "Tabata" style pull ups, push ups and squats 1x per week on top of his normal training schedule for 12 weeks and recorded the effects, every 4th week he did "Cindy" instead of his Tabata style protocol.

He only did 6 rounds, and did all his pull ups in one group, then all the push ups, then all the squats. The next exercise commenced when he was sufficiently recovered, or the next day.

The results were as follows (he used Cindy to measure his progress - max rounds in 20 minutes of 5 pull ups, 10 push ups, 15 squats):

Week 1: 19 rounds and 3 pull ups
Week 12: 24 rounds

Max pull ups: 21 to 40

I'm only on page 6 of a 16 page thread and he's commenced another experiment, but it made for a very interesting read nonetheless.

Full thread here - http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=20405

Hanley

...and I'm trying to think of a way to do similar for myself, just out of boredom from not lifting stuff.

Might do something like push ups, 16kg goblet squat and rows/pull ups, but that'd mean getting somewhre to do pull ups.

I should probably get one of those doorway pull up bars (who's using them, how much was it, where did you get it from and how sturdy is it?!) and just do it as RX'd!!

sharky86

Hanley wrote: »

...and I'm trying to think of a way to do similar for myself, just out of boredom from not lifting stuff.

Might do something like push ups, 16kg goblet squat and rows/pull ups, but that'd mean getting somewhre to do pull ups.

I should probably get one of those doorway pull up bars (who's using them, how much was it, where did you get it from and how sturdy is it?!) and just do it as RX'd!!

Not sure about everything else but I got my door way chin up bar from mickk from irish lifting. I'm 110kg and have had no problems from it. Only thing is no kipping or ya'll get a nasty bump on your head when you hit the ground

Edwardius

Did that about two years back. Good increases for about three (edit: maybe 6, I forget)weeks, burned out on the following weeks and went stale. If you're righteous in your pushups (no slack and chest to floor) they're the limiting point in cindy. If you can't kip, then pullups will be the limitation.
I think Grimes was a football player at one point and is pretty damn good at judo too (texas state champ I think) so I reckon he made good progress due to "taking out the slack" in those particular movements. Kinda ironic that Grimes made more of a contribution to cf than a lot of the folks in HQ despite being one of its biggest haters!

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how ya get on. After the initial adaptation, I reckon you'll make more progress on the KB stuff than the upper body BW stuff (which will probably hit a horrible plateau!). The only time I've ever made progress on upper body BW movements was low intensity, high frequency+volume and avoiding failure like somalia.

Although if your limitation is your "engine" as opposed to muscular endurance then it'll be completely different, in which case ignore everything I said!

CosyAcorn

Hanley wrote: »

...and I'm trying to think of a way to do similar for myself, just out of boredom from not lifting stuff.

Here's a suggestion, I did this one the other week at training after doing a load of other stuff, it's a killer.

Round 1: 75 squats, 55 push ups and 25 dips
Round 2: 50 squats, 35 push ups and 15 dips
Round 3: 25 squats, 15 push ups and 10 dips

Enjoy

Hanley

CosyAcorn wrote: »

Here's a suggestion, I did this one the other week at training after doing a load of other stuff, it's a killer.

Round 1: 75 squats, 55 push ups and 25 dips
Round 2: 50 squats, 35 push ups and 15 dips
Round 3: 25 squats, 15 push ups and 10 dips

Enjoy

You might wanna stick that here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968930

I was talking about a cohesive 12 week training cycle, not a single random workout.

Barry.Oglesby

Pull up bar in next week hopefully. Climbing rope to follow soon after.

Hanley

Dead Ed wrote: »

Did that about two years back. Good increases for about three (edit: maybe 6, I forget)weeks, burned out on the following weeks and went stale. If you're righteous in your pushups (no slack and chest to floor) they're the limiting point in cindy. If you can't kip, then pullups will be the limitation.

Back in the day I did 38 minute murph where I partioned the bodyweight stuff into a 20 round cindy which took 20 minutes. I think I've done 24 rounds at my best or something so I've some good exp with it anyway.

If I was gonna do it I'd make sure to do all the press ups to a tennis ball or something. I'd say the pull ups would have to be strict cos I'd be doing them at home. I've always found the squats to be the limiting factor. I'm sure there's some fancy reason like glycolytic versus oxidative ability due to my training history all I know is my legs burn out quick.

I think Grimes was a football player at one point and is pretty damn good at judo too (texas state champ I think) so I reckon he made good progress due to "taking out the slack" in those particular movements. Kinda ironic that Grimes made more of a contribution to cf than a lot of the folks in HQ despite being one of its biggest haters!

Yeah I was wondering what the "departed" tag line under his name was all about!!

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how ya get on. After the initial adaptation, I reckon you'll make more progress on the KB stuff than the upper body BW stuff (which will probably hit a horrible plateau!). The only time I've ever made progress on upper body BW movements was low intensity, high frequency+volume and avoiding failure like somalia.

Although if your limitation is your "engine" as opposed to muscular endurance then it'll be completely different, in which case ignore everything I said!

I'm expecting a quick increase in everything because they're all movements I'd hav been proficient in but not done in a long time so results will probably taper off over the cycle.

Muscular endurance is definitely the limiting factor over my engine. Not that either is particularly good, one's just worse than the other.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Pull up bar in next week hopefully. Climbing rope to follow soon after.

Ohhhhhhh...

itsallaboutheL

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

. Climbing rope to follow soon after.

lol, remember the climbing rope in raw hanley?

CosyAcorn

Hanley wrote: »

You might wanna stick that here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968930

I was talking about a cohesive 12 week training cycle, not a single random workout.

Sorry, excuse my noob-ness...

TimeToShine

hanley how many full ROM pullups can you do?

Hanley

TimeToShine wrote: »

hanley how many full ROM pullups can you do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpaSVkMNAXo

Lack of full extension is a result of a FUBAR'd shoulder.

I'll test everything before doing it tho so I've basis for comparison!

Frank Bullitt

There is a rather hideous little number that I am doing at the minute along with my program, its a pyramid style plan, 1-7 rounds then back down again, at the end of it it totals to 147 push-ups, 47 pull-ups, 245 squats and 245 sit-ups.

Lovely.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

Ohhhhhhh...

Ooooh. yes that giant metal frame in the car park is ours and will be a bag/rope/pullup frame soon. I'm just waiting on the welder dude. Anyway the physio cleared me to weight train again about 4 weeks ago and I just haven't bothered doing anything. I was waiting for the right moment, or something. I might do something along with you.

I was talking with Amanda about something like this yesterday. Maybe we could integrate your very poor idea with my very good one, and include a few others in it. I would drag my idea down a bit, but on the plus side, yours would be brought up.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Ooooh. yes that giant metal frame in the car park is ours and will be a bag/rope/pullup frame soon. I'm just waiting on the welder dude.

MY PRECIOUS!!

Anyway the physio cleared me to weight train again about 4 weeks ago and I just haven't bothered doing anything. I was waiting for the right moment, or something. I might do something along with you.

I was talking with Amanda about something like this yesterday. Maybe we could integrate your very poor idea with my very good one, and include a few others in it. I would drag my idea down a bit, but on the plus side, yours would be brought up.

A race to be average you say? Excellent.

But yeah, could work alright. I think people would see their numbers climb steadily over the weeks if they did the Tabata STYLE** intervals which would make them feel nice about themselves.

**I did a little inside any time I reference Tabata in context to this.

d'Oracle

I read this thread before I clicked the link.

On clicking the link I had a giggle seeing who started the linked thread.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

I read this thread before I clicked the link.

On clicking the link I had a giggle seeing who started the linked thread.

It sounds like I should know who this bloke is.

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

It sounds like I should know who this bloke is.

Maybe, maybe not.

He was in the crossfit.
He trained in Rippetoes Gym, was involved in the 70s big thing at the start. Judo Player/Instructor I believe.
He is now one of the more vitriolic voices in criticism of crossfit and posts a fair bit on the Catalyst Athletics forum.

Look up "Gant Grimes Hybrid programme" Which is a strength programme with Old school CF skill work and metcons. Wot he wrote, innit.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

A race to be average you say? Excellent.

But yeah, could work alright. I think people would see their numbers climb steadily over the weeks if they did the Tabata STYLE** intervals which would make them feel nice about themselves.

**I did a little inside any time I reference Tabata in context to this.

I was thinking of a 6 week thing. Very simple and very short- 20 minutes work before Mon and Weds, and after Tues and Thurs training each evening- involving some strength stuff, some conditioning work (on the light nights) and one big session on a Saturday afternoon. There are some folk who'd really like it I reckon and it would be a nice add on to regular training, with grappling specific stuff like grip work etc.

I'm going to call it Kyuzofit Roisín.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I was thinking of a 6 week thing. Very simple and very short- 20 minutes work before Mon and Weds, and after Tues and Thurs training each evening- involving some strength stuff, some conditioning work (on the light nights) and one big session on a Saturday afternoon. There are some folk who'd really like it I reckon and it would be a nice add on to regular training, with grappling specific stuff like grip work etc.

I'm going to call it Kyuzofit Roisín.

I like everything but the name.

Seppuku-fit would be better, cos it's so hard, it might just kill you. Like Crossfit.

Which is actually kind of ironic cos I heard reports out of a Dublin hospital of 3 Crossfit related cases of Rhabdo in the last few months.

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

I like everything but the name.

Seppuku-fit would be better, cos it's so hard, it might just kill you. Like Crossfit.

Which is actually kind of ironic cos I heard reports out of a Dublin hospital of 3 Crossfit related cases of Rhabdo in the last few months.

Really?
That's ****ing awful.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

I like everything but the name.

Seppuku-fit would be better, cos it's so hard, it might just kill you. Like Crossfit.

Which is actually kind of ironic cos I heard reports out of a Dublin hospital of 3 Crossfit related cases of Rhabdo in the last few months.

Seriously? Rhabdo is very rare isn't it? I mean I'm no Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman but I thought the chances of it even with the dumbest crossfit programming were of the "perfect storm" variety?

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

Really?
That's ****ing awful.

Yup well like it was posted on a semi-public forum by a chap who has a PT business in Dublin, using his real name. Said one of his clients is an A&E doctor and was asking him about CF and said they've had 3 cases of exercise induced rhabdo in the last few months.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Seriously? Rhabdo is very rare isn't it? I mean I'm no Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman but I thought the chances of it even with the dumbest crossfit programming were of the "perfect storm" variety?

Well yah, that was the claim that has been made. With a guy running a fairly major practice attached to it. So I doubt he'd be putting his a55 on the line if it wasn't true.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

Well yah, that was the claim that has been made. With a guy running a fairly major practice attached to it. So I doubt he'd be putting his a55 on the line if it wasn't true.

Do I know the PT? It's a big, possibly libelous claim.

d'Oracle

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Seriously? Rhabdo is very rare isn't it? I mean I'm no Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman but I thought the chances of it even with the dumbest crossfit programming were of the "perfect storm" variety?

There is a fellow who posts on a forum belonging to a gym which was formerly a prominent crossfit affiliate.
He started a thread which has sort of taken a life of its own.

Basically, driven by hatred, he trawls CF blogs and forums for reported instances of Rhabdo and keeping count posting links as he finds them.

He is at over 200.

He contacted a physician who wrote a journal article, posted the return email.
Apparently People presenting with it from crossfit is becoming a lot more common in 'Merica.

Satanta

Why does this happen? Is it the case that these people are super fit and the programming pushes them beyond their bodies ability? Tbh I don't think I could push that hard.

Edwardius

Satanta wrote: »

Why does this happen? Is it the case that these people are super fit and the programming pushes them beyond their bodies ability? Tbh I don't think I could push that hard.

Seems to be a bunch of things. Timed workouts with high reps and lots of eccentric movements seems to be a common cause. There was one forum post where someone gave a guy AMRAP 20 of 10 thrusters and 10 pullups on his first day. He couldn't do the pullups so they had him basically jump and do controlled negatives, he got rhabdo (and the forum leader basically told the trainer he had done nothing wrong). GHD situps seem to be another culprit (up to 150 in some cases) and workouts with high reps, e.g. angie (100 pullups, pushups, situps, squats) few rhabdos from that. Some high rep deadlift workouts seem to cause it too.

Having said that, OPT apparently got it in the 09 games and he wasn't a newbie.

Basically if something looks really retarded don't do it!

Also, it seems that people on statins are more at risk of rhabdo too.

G86

Hanley wrote: »

I know CF gets some stick here, but every now and again something interesting comes out of it. I found a thread from 2007 today where a dude did "Tabata" style pull ups, push ups and squats 1x per week on top of his normal training schedule for 12 weeks and recorded the effects, every 4th week he did "Cindy" instead of his Tabata style protocol.

He only did 6 rounds, and did all his pull ups in one group, then all the push ups, then all the squats. The next exercise commenced when he was sufficiently recovered, or the next day.

The results were as follows (he used Cindy to measure his progress - max rounds in 20 minutes of 5 pull ups, 10 push ups, 15 squats):

Week 1: 19 rounds and 3 pull ups
Week 12: 24 rounds

Max pull ups: 21 to 40

I'm only on page 6 of a 16 page thread and he's commenced another experiment, but it made for a very interesting read nonetheless.

Full thread here - http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=20405

Haven't read the thread yet, but is it not just simply a case of he did more pull ups, so he got better at pull ups?

Black Sheep

I think there probably is some skill component (or neurological adaptation?) that accounts for some of the numbers gains. But at the same time you are genuinely adding several dozen extra pullups per week too- the volume builds up.

When I did this protocol plus CrossFit, a number of years ago, I improved, like DeadEd, in the short term and in the medium/long term stalled and eventually stopped bothering.

The next similar thing I tried was Pavel T.'s 'grease the groove' approach where you're adding volume throughout the day or whenever feasible, doing sets but never to failure, and they felt like a better fit for me. Numbers-wise I made gains that have stuck around.

Never tried the approach Pavel's advocated to pull-up ladders, I'd also be curious about that too. (You're with a training partner. You do 1 pullup, he does 1, you do 2, he does 2, etc adding reps on until one of you fails... This is repeated whenever you want before, during, after a workout etc)

Curious about the Dublin rhabdo cases ... That's pretty dramatic stuff if true. I would have thought 3 pinned to any one training method in a city the size of Dublin would be pretty dynamite stuff in the long term.

I've certainly spoken to an ART/physical therapist in south Dublin who said he'd had an influx of Crossfit-induced injuries. Arguably though you've got to ask the question whether he sees more tag rugby related injuries or globogym-related injuries per head?

d'Oracle

G86 wrote: »

Haven't read the thread yet, but is it not just simply a case of he did more pull ups, so he got better at pull ups?

And did more squats and pressups so got better at squats and pullups.

There is a logical conclusion to that case though.
In that, as you probably know from doing them, in those CF style metcons you are also getting better at maintaining some level of workrate when you are ****ed.

So he probably got better at squats, pressups and pullups while improving his conditioning at some level which I won't even venture to define for fear of creating a faecal hurricane.

d'Oracle

Black Sheep wrote: »

I've certainly spoken to an ART/physical therapist in south Dublin who said he'd had an influx of Crossfit-induced injuries. Arguably though you've got to ask the question whether he sees more tag rugby related injuries or globogym-related injuries per head?

I'm willing to bet that he sees more tag rugby related injuries.
Amateur field sports + ankles = money for therapists.

*I'm not actually willing to bet.

SanoVitae

http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/38_05_cf_rhabdo.pdf

Greg Glassman wrote:

No experienced CrossFitter has had any rhabdo problems.

Our victims had typically previously experienced only low-power-output, low-intensity workouts. Regimens that separate strength training from cardio are almost always low-intensity regimens.

Bodybuilding workouts coupled with long distance runs are not adequate preparation for sport, combat, emergency, or CrossFit.

Ah, I get it now.

It's not Crossfit's exercise training programs that are responsible for these injuries, it's every other exercise program except Crossfit which is the cause.

What next? Exercise-related deaths at Crossfit, which Glassman then blames on the victim paying the price of having performed too many sets of lat pulldowns, leg extensions and concentration curls in the past?

Pathetic.

Molly

Except experienced crossfitters have experienced rhabdo. Glassman in full of ****e shocker

Hanley

G86 wrote: »

Haven't read the thread yet, but is it not just simply a case of he did more pull ups, so he got better at pull ups?

Yes and no.... You're only doing circa 2 minutes of each during the week so it's not really fair to attribute it to that alone.

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

Max pull ups: 21 to 40

G86 wrote: »

is it not just simply a case of he did more pull ups, so he got better at pull ups?

Hanley wrote: »

Yes and no.... You're only doing circa 2 minutes of each during the week so it's not really fair to attribute it to that alone.

I glanced at his thread and saw these are kipping pullups. If he was mediocre at kipping to begin with I would expect a far greater increase, even if only doing a few a week. I doubt his non-kipping pullup ability would have doubled in that time.

I can do zero kipping pullups, so if I got the swing of them I expect I would be doubling ability every week or 2 for a while.

Hanley

rubadub wrote: »

I glanced at his thread and saw these are kipping pullups. If he was mediocre at kipping to begin with I would expect a far greater increase, even if only doing a few a week. I doubt his non-kipping pullup ability would have doubled in that time.

I can do zero kipping pullups, so if I got the swing of them I expect I would be doubling ability every week or 2 for a while.

And did he say he wasn't able to do kipping pull ups? Are you reaching for an explanation, or did I miss it?

Regardless of whether he was or not, any improvement in kipping pull up tekkers wouldn't explain +5 rounds on Cindy because pull ups are such a small component, especially considering he obviously has a basic level of proficiency if he can already do 21.

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

And did he say he wasn't able to do kipping pull ups?

I don't know, I only glanced at his thread, I was thinking somebody might confirm that he did say he was new enough to them later on somewhere.

Hanley wrote: »

Are you reaching for an explanation, or did I miss it?

Yeah, I was thinking there might be an explanation for such a dramatic increase, like how people can point out flaws in studies. TBH I am not familiar with CF cindys etc so only noticed the pullups and it seemed a very impressive increase.

I was also just pointing out to others that they were kipping ones as they might not be familiar with crossfit, esp. after the video of yourself doing some.

Hanley wrote: »

he obviously has a basic level of proficiency if he can already do 21.

I have no idea of his starting ability, I would say no doubt he is strong enough if he can do 21

-but if he was able to do 30 regular full ROM slow pullups, but only 21 kipping ones at the start then he probably would not consider himself great at kipping, and the increase to 40 is more understandable.

Hanley

rubadub wrote: »

-but if he was able to do 30 regular full ROM slow pullups, but only 21 kipping ones at the start then he probably would not consider himself great at kipping, and the increase to 40 is more understandable.

I know what you're getting at, but that is an unbelievable straw man you're building.

I'm not foolish enough to believe that any one factor in a training cycle is what dictates its success/failure, and I'm not saying everyone would get the same results. I posted a thread, where the dude has gone to pretty extreme lengths to document, record and explain everytihng, and people are trying to pick holes in without looking at it!?

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

people are trying to pick holes in without looking at it!?

I seriously wasn't looking for an argument about it, just wanted to know if we were hearing the full story. Just like people ask for a TL;DR on wordy studies with remarkable results, which often suddenly do not sound so remarkable. e.g. it was an ex-bodybuilder with an injury who packed on muscle, or an absoulte beginner, or they were doing ray darcy pushups

You are right, I did not read it, I did look at it, saw load of numbers and girls names and knew I wouldn't have a clue what was going on...:o

Hanley

rubadub wrote: »

I seriously wasn't looking for an argument about it, just wanted to know if we were hearing the full story. Just like people ask for a TL;DR on wordy studies with remarkable results, which often suddenly do not sound so remarkable. e.g. it was an ex-bodybuilder with an injury who packed on muscle, or an absoulte beginner, or they were doing ray darcy pushups

You are right, I did not read it, I did look at it, saw load of numbers and girls names and knew I wouldn't have a clue what was going on...:o

C'mon dude... Gimme a bit more credit, of all people!!!

I'm skeptical enough of all things CF related for them to have a hard time impressing me.

I think the results I get are going to be pretty interesting tho, like I've had high pull up, push up and squat numbers, and they're in the toilet now cos I haven't trained them. I'd expect to see some HUGE increases off it.

Might included handstand push ups as well!!

columok

Very curious about the CF in Dublin cases. Also might give the idea of a ladder approach a bash too. Need to do a wee bit more "conditioning" so do a rowing tabata and leave the bodyweight stuff out of the failure zone (until I'm stronger).

Great thread though!

d'Oracle

columok wrote: »

Very curious about the CF in Dublin cases. Also might give the idea of a ladder approach a bash too. Need to do a wee bit more "conditioning" so do a rowing tabata and leave the bodyweight stuff out of the failure zone (until I'm stronger).

Great thread though!

**** Tabata rowing. 10x 30/30 intervals for the win.
More work, more Bravestar reference.