Driving school. Do not change gear when stopping?

bmstuff

Seen that recently, where the driving instructor was advising not to change gear while stopping at a red light.

Basically the car was on 4th gear doing 60Km/h, good few yards away from the light, light turns red, had plenty of time to gear down, but no, the instructor specified to engage the clutch and brake slowly, basically rolling and arriving at the light with the clutch fully engaged, like in neutral.

Never seen that before, surely you got done at the test for doing that or is it the way people are trained to drive here? And I mean cars have gearboxes, gearing up and down depending on speed is part of their design.

Any feedback?

Thanks

dev100

Thats called coasting thats not allowed. You are not in proper control of car doing this. Its dangerous... Are you sure he didnt mean apply the brakes when about to stopping when about to fully stop then engage clutch etc? I always drop down thru the gears when im coming to a stop. You are engine braking less pressure on brakes etc.

Sparkie93

my instructor told me to change down to third or second if there is a queue and not to press down clutch too early i had that habit of pressing brake and clutch at same time

Approahing a traffic light you should change down to third, brake as necessary if the light goes amber, you can stop in 3rd no bother, brake should be engaged well before the clutch though, clutch should only be pressed when required, ie sub 10 miles/hour speed arrived at.

Zubeneschamali

bmstuff wrote: »

Seen that recently, where the driving instructor was advising not to change gear while stopping at a red light.

Coasting in neutral is bad form, but testers and instructors used to teach people to shift down through all the gears to 2nd before coming to a halt. My own instructor 20+ years ago taught me to do that for the test, but said it's pointless in actual driving, and not to bother once I passed.

Brake pads are cheaper than clutches.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Why is coasting considered so bad? I've heard people rhyme off about how you're in less control, but you have the gears there if you want, you have the brakes too... can someone make it clearer for me?

You wouldn't do it going down a hill, with the foot on the brake and the clutch to the floor so why so it on the level? Also if you are coasting approching a junction and the light stays green as well as coming off the brake you have to get propelled using the engine again, not smooth progress.

sentient_6

There's no problem stopping in 4th, or whatever gear you happen to be in. Just leave disengaging the clutch until as late as possible, i.e. jut when you start to feel the engine kick.

**Timbuk2**

No, you don't arrive at the lights with your foot on the clutch unnecessarily.

What your driving instructor was probably referring to was the fact that for the test, it is recommended that you stop in whatever gear you are in - there's no need to go from 4th to 3rd, then 3rd to 2nd like in the old days (when brakes lost effectiveness the longer they were applied for, so the gears helped slow down the car).

So the proper procedure would be to approach the lights, leave the car in 4th but only press the clutch just before the car is about to labour, which may be slower than you might think - it's often only about 3 car lengths before you stop.

However, you will not get marked down for changing down through the gears in your test, but make sure to do it right. If you are changing down through the gears, you have to engage each one. E.g. clutch in, down from 4th to 3rd, clutch out. Then as you get slower, clutch in, down from 3rd to 2nd, clutch out. Then slow to a stop, putting the clutch in just before you stop. Do not keep your foot on the clutch the whole way through changing through the gears - this is effectively the same as coasting with a bit more arm movement.

But the RSA recommended way (and indeed the way recommended by advanced driving courses) is to leave it in the gear you are in. If, for example, you see the lights go green ahead of you, you can then change directly from 4th to 2nd (no need to go through 3rd) and be ready to continue moving.

The Roadcraft method of approaching these situations is
Information (what's around you? should I signal?)
Position (get into the position appropriate for your next manoeuver)
Speed (slow down to a speed appropriate for the manoeuver)
Gear (once you have your speed, change directly into the gear you need, often 2nd)
Acceleration (accelerate smoothly through the manoeuver - don't be braking while turning, for example)

There can be a bit of overlap with the Position/Speed/Gear sections depending on junction layout, etc., but the basic point is that you select your speed first, then change from whatever gear you are in to whatever gear you will need. But if you are definitely stopping, you can just keep it in whatever gear you are in.

comanche_cor

bmstuff wrote: »

Seen that recently, where the driving instructor was advising not to change gear while stopping at a red light.

Basically the car was on 4th gear doing 60Km/h, good few yards away from the light, light turns red, had plenty of time to gear down, but no, the instructor specified to engage the clutch and brake slowly, basically rolling and arriving at the light with the clutch fully engaged, like in neutral.

Never seen that before, surely you got done at the test for doing that or is it the way people are trained to drive here? And I mean cars have gearboxes, gearing up and down depending on speed is part of their design.

Any feedback?

Thanks

This is almost correct but not quiet right - where this comes from is observation. You should be in a position to know that there is a red light ahead and bring the cat to a stop safely. You are not supposed to go down gears as this supposedly takes your attention & control (hands) from other things - braking and steering. You are not supposed to coast ever, the car should be driving, so they way that this is done is you don't engage the clutch until you feel that the is about to labour in gear. Just take your foot off the accelerator - you will be surprised how long it will before the car will start to labour.

Personally I will brake until the point that I need to engage the clutch, I will then drop to second but not disengage the clutch unless I need to.

I was taught to go down through the gears by my parents when driving but this dates back to when brakes where not good and engine braking was needed to help brakes. However brakes are better and much cheaper these days to the emphasis has changed to car control - this is was I was though when I did my ignition course years ago ...

dr.fuzzenstein

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Coasting in neutral is bad form, but testers and instructors used to teach people to shift down through all the gears to 2nd before coming to a halt. My own instructor 20+ years ago taught me to do that for the test, but said it's pointless in actual driving, and not to bother once I passed.

Like so many other things you learn when learning to drive it's just random bollocks. Pay no attention to it, other than for passing your test.
Like shuffling the steering wheel, only for the test and people who want to look like idiots, completely redundant, a leftover from the 30's, no point in today's driving.
Like stopping distances, most cars can stop in under half than the official figure.
When it comes to driving lessons, remember, you're not being taught how to drive properly, you're only being taught behavior that will pass the test.
People should just do what the instructor tells them to pass the test and then do a proper driving course and maybe a few track days, to get a proper feel for cars and learn proper car control.
It's important to learn the rules of the road, but as far as car-control is concerned, the theory is that if we teach everyone to drive like octogenarians at 40 km/h, we won't have any accidents.

Jimmy Bottlehead

RoverJames wrote: »

You wouldn't do it going down a hill, with the foot on the brake and the clutch to the floor so why so it on the level? Also if you are coasting approching a junction and the light stays green as well as coming off the brake you have to get propelled using the engine again, not smooth progress.

At the risk of getting battered, I do it on hills if they're clear. Again, I am open to getting told why this is stupid, if it is.

And I can judge the speed/RPM so that I can flick it into the right gear with enough throttle for it to remain smooth. Just gotten used to it.

sentient_6

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

At the risk of getting battered, I do it on hills if they're clear. Again, I am open to getting told why this is stupid, if it is.

And I can judge the speed/RPM so that I can flick it into the right gear with enough throttle for it to remain smooth. Just gotten used to it.

Because your free wheeling, engine disconnected from the wheels. You'd be putting all the pressure on your regular brakes to slow down. & if your not braking your speed will increase because of the no engine braking. Without power to the wheels your steering will be effected to.

the_syco

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

20+ years ago

In old cars it was used to slow the car down.

muckwarrior

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Coasting in neutral is bad form, but testers and instructors used to teach people to shift down through all the gears to 2nd before coming to a halt. My own instructor 20+ years ago taught me to do that for the test, but said it's pointless in actual driving, and not to bother once I passed.

I don't see it as being pointless. When I'm approaching a red I'll go down through the gears so that I'm in the right gear for the speed I'm doing, then if the light turns green before I get to it I can just get straight on the throttle.

creedp

sentient_6 wrote: »

Because your free wheeling, engine disconnected from the wheels. You'd be putting all the pressure on your regular brakes to slow down. & if your not braking your speed will increase because of the no engine braking. Without power to the wheels your steering will be effected to.

To be fair if you're coasting down a hill its hardly putting pressure on your brakes and if touching your brakes to control your speed is hard on your brakes I'd hate to see what condition they'd be in if you had to use them for an emergency stop. In my view brakes are for stopping and engine/clutch is for driving, that's what each are designed for. Also coasting is not afecting power to your steering unless you turn off engine altogether .. now thats an action I would not be recommeding

Of course for the test all bets are off and we have to comply with the stuffy rules...

**Timbuk2**

Doesn't coasting use more fuel? While slowing down with the gear engaged, the car is effectively using zero fuel, but if you put in the clutch, you need fuel to keep the engine idling as the wheels are disconnected from the engine.

Zubeneschamali

muckwarrior wrote: »

When I'm approaching a red I'll go down through the gears so that I'm in the right gear for the speed I'm doing.

There is no "right gear" for a given speed.

VW 1

When I was learning to drive about 5 years ago, my dad had given me a few lessons teaching me to go down through the gears as I was braking. My instructor had me use the breaks and not change down the gears, to quote him "the gears are for speeding up and the brakes are for slowing you down".

Although that said it is important not to coast while braking.

keithclancy

You have far better control over the car in a gear that suits the speed your travelling.

Just using your brakes alone in the Alps for example would be suicide.

Myself I use engine braking to slow down, if i need to use the brakes to slow down i'm travelling too fast anyway.

Brakes to stop (unless something merits me stopping), Engine braking to slow down.

Coasting is a big no no, if you have to re-engage the clutch you'll either:

A: Have no power
B: The engine idling will be pushing against your brakes.

On a side note, I see people using their brakes on the motorway the whole time, what a waste of fuel !!

And yes, coasting does waste more fuel on a modern engine, when the engine is in overrun the fuel supply is cut off completely at the injectors.

Celly Smunt

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

There is no "right gear" for a given speed.

i'm pretty sure fifth gear would be best for 100 mph :rolleyes:

corktina

engaging the clutch unecessarily will result in a shortened clutch life

corktina

pmcmahon wrote: »

i'm pretty sure fifth gear would be best for 100 mph :rolleyes:

not if youve a 6 speed box

Celly Smunt

corktina wrote: »

not if youve a 6 speed box

touché

Mr Benevolent

Going down through the gears is a throwback to crappy brakes. Stopping in 3rd is fine but coasting is not great in terms of fuel efficiency imo. Cutoff overrun only works when in gear, clutch out, no throttle and above about 1500rpm.

muckwarrior

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

There is no "right gear" for a given speed.

So you think it's ok to scream along in first gear doing 50kph? Or to chug along in top gear doing 30kph?

keithclancy

Confab wrote: »

Going down through the gears is a throwback to crappy brakes. Stopping in 3rd is fine but coasting is not great in terms of fuel efficiency imo. Cutoff overrun only works when in gear, clutch out, no throttle and above about 1500rpm.

Its best practise.

If you drive any moderate mountains purely on brakes you'll have an awful stink of pads and possibly boil the brake fluid.

Going downhill on a mountain you'd essentially have to coast until you reached the overrun speed of 4th gear.

Zubeneschamali

muckwarrior wrote: »

So you think it's ok to scream along in first gear doing 50kph? Or to chug along in top gear doing 30kph?

So what's the "right gear" for 50 kph, so?

keithclancy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So what's the "right gear" for 50 kph, so?

'D' :P

muckwarrior

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So what's the "right gear" for 50 kph, so?

Well that depends on the car obviously. It would be whatever gear gives you the best balance of torque and reasonably low revs. In some cases there may be more than one appropriate gear.

Alanstrainor

muckwarrior wrote: »

So you think it's ok to scream along in first gear doing 50kph? Or to chug along in top gear doing 30kph?

Talk about missing the point.

There's more to it than just speed. Weight the car is carrying, towing a trailer, steep hills etc etc will play parts in what gear you are in.

Zubeneschamali

keithclancy wrote: »

If you drive any moderate mountains purely on brakes you'll have an awful stink of pads and possibly boil the brake fluid.

We're not talking about coming down the Grossglockner, we're talking about stopping at a red light. using all the gears down to 2nd is an old technique which is no longer useful, and no longer taught or tested.

Zubeneschamali

muckwarrior wrote: »

In some cases there may be more than one appropriate gear.

In the case where you are slowing to a halt at a red light, any gear you happen to be in will be just fine at 50 kph. And 30 kph. And 20.

Vertakill

Changing down through all the gears down to to 2nd as you approach a red light is ridiculous... and must put a lot of wear on clutch/gearbox.

As others have said, you can come up to a light and as you're approaching, drop into 3rd and just before you stop or begin to labour, clutch in.

When stopped, pull up handbrake and pop it into neutral. Done.

That was the method as of about 5 years ago for me.

No coasting, no unnecessary gear changing and you still have a moderate amount of control of the car with it in 3rd gear.

Thatnastyboy

Coasting - at all is unsafe practise, also completely pointless.

I do not see any valid reason as to why one would want to shift to neutral or engage the clutch for an extended period of time while the car is moving.

If its 'to save fuel', the savings would be negligible, or non existent, as said before engine braking uses zero fuel, idling uses fuel. It also gives you yet another thing to think about when driving, eg approaching an incident, traffic lights, obstacle etc.. Not all obstacles can be avoided by braking, some are best avoided with acceleration or other movements. The car & driver should be ready to deal with any type of situation,

Plain and simple bad practise IMO.

keithclancy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We're not talking about coming down the Grossglockner, we're talking about stopping at a red light. using all the gears down to 2nd is an old technique which is no longer useful, and no longer taught or tested.

Its a bit thick if they don't teach it, hills do exist.

They still teach you how to do a Hill Start in Holland even though you'd be hard pressed to find one

muckwarrior

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Talk about missing the point.

There's more to it than just speed. Weight the car is carrying, towing a trailer, steep hills etc etc will play parts in what gear you are in.

Talk about being pedantic.

By "right gear" I clearly meant whichever one would be most appropriate to let me accelerate away if for whatever reason it transpired that I didn't need to stop.

In the case where you are slowing to a halt at a red light, any gear you happen to be in will be just fine at 50 kph. And 30 kph. And 20.

I disagree. If for whatever reason I suddenly need to accelerate the car is just going to bog down if I'm in 6th gear at 20kph.

Zubeneschamali

muckwarrior wrote: »

If for whatever reason I suddenly need to accelerate the car is just going to bog down if I'm in 6th gear at 20kph.

Oddly, in my experience, many of the folks who always change down through the box so that "they have power in case it's needed" are the same people who change up at the earliest possible moment when speeding up, "to save fuel".