Jobless in 'soul-destroying' lifestyle

sarumite

Interesting article in the Irish times about the effects of unemployment.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0819/1224302708929.html

Having been unemployed, I know how they are feeling. Of this, I would say two things that I read that I could definitely associate with are

When you are panicking like that, when you are overwhelmed with that kind of anxiety, you stop and you don't do anything . . . and then you're not eating properly and you're not exercising.

There was about 100 people in front of me and 100 people behind me and by the time I got to the counter I was practically abused by the person behind the counter, and it's just embarrassing and it's horrible . . . they don't make it easy and that's not very helpful when you're not working. It doesn't have to be that hard.

RichardAnd

I was unemployed myself for 6 months after graduating from college. I will remember those months are some of the worst of my life. I felt like I'd wasted the previous 4 years of college and that my in ability to find work was purely down to my own lack of ability and employablity rather than the economy. Dreadful, simply dreadful.

The thing is though, we seem to treat the genuine unemployed horribly in this country. Sure, the dole is quite high when compared to other countries but the whole system of signing on to get it is just dehumanisng. I think that in the 21st century, the idea of dole queues needs to be adressed. It should be possible to have some system where by the unemployed can sign on online and recieve their benifits directly into a bank account in privacy and anonymity.

It's when I come onto places like this forum and read the appalling comments by some childish posters in releation to the unemployed, it really makes me shake my head at the whole mess we're in.

Inverse to the power of one!

RichardAnd wrote: »

I was unemployed myself for 6 months after graduating from college. I will remember those months are some of the worst of my life. I felt like I'd wasted the previous 4 years of college and that my in ability to find work was purely down to my own lack of ability and employablity rather than the economy. Dreadful, simply dreadful.

The thing is though, we seem to treat the genuine unemployed horribly in this country. Sure, the dole is quite high when compared to other countries but the whole system of signing on to get it is just dehumanisng. I think that in the 21st century, the idea of dole queues needs to be adressed. It should be possible to have some system where by the unemployed can sign on online and recieve their benifits directly into a bank account in privacy and anonymity.

It's when I come onto places like this forum and read the appalling comments by some childish posters in releation to the unemployed, it really makes me shake my head at the whole mess we're in.

Hint.....the unemployed don't have unions and can't afford solicitors, makes for easy targets. Why bother challenging the unions when as a politician you can gain popularity for making disparaging remarks about being unemployed as a life style and get popular press for it.

People don't seem to get this, and as long as this is the case, the citizens will be easily distracted from the true crimes of the state. Funny thing is that this has been going on so long, you think people would see the same old patterns by now.

tfitzgerald

I am unemployed at the moment and it is soul destroying and for the people that say there is plenty of work out there I have news for them there is not. I have spent a small fortune on post sending out my cv only to hear nothing back

giant_midget

RichardAnd wrote: »

I was unemployed myself for 6 months after graduating from college. I will remember those months are some of the worst of my life. I felt like I'd wasted the previous 4 years of college and that my in ability to find work was purely down to my own lack of ability and employablity rather than the economy. Dreadful, simply dreadful.

The thing is though, we seem to treat the genuine unemployed horribly in this country. Sure, the dole is quite high when compared to other countries but the whole system of signing on to get it is just dehumanisng. I think that in the 21st century, the idea of dole queues needs to be adressed. It should be possible to have some system where by the unemployed can sign on online and recieve their benifits directly into a bank account in privacy and anonymity.

It's when I come onto places like this forum and read the appalling comments by some childish posters in releation to the unemployed, it really makes me shake my head at the whole mess we're in.

Are you serious, There is enough loopholes in our SW system already! ....what a stupid idea..

cavedave

Surely the goal of technological development is that we will all end up unemployed? When we have driverless cars, robot butlers and spend all day on the internet fighting we wont have to work 40 hour weeks to pay to live. If we accept that we should make sure the being unemployed is ok as nearly all of us are going to end up there at some stage.

As an aside if you want to get a job speeding up everyone not having a job Stanford are starting 3 free programming courses in a few weeks here

RichardAnd

giant_midget wrote: »

Are you serious, There is enough loopholes in our SW system already! ....what a stupid idea..

I'm sure there are many loop holes but I fail to see how archaic dole queues mitigate them. Also, if you're going to dismiss another's ideas as "stupid", perhaps you should be wary of very basic grammar mistakes.

ei.sdraob

cavedave wrote: »

Surely the goal of technological development is that we will all end up unemployed? When we have driverless cars, robot butlers and spend all day on the internet fighting we wont have to work 40 hour weeks to pay to live. If we accept that we should make sure the being unemployed is ok as nearly all of us are going to end up there at some stage.

As an aside if you want to get a job speeding up everyone not having a job Stanford are starting 3 free programming courses in a few weeks here

Someone has to design, create, maintain these machines (then someone has to market, sell, support em) and so on

Unfortunately we have people shying away from engineering and science where there is employment

Since the industrial age we had more mechanization and automation and despite any Luddite ramblings it resulted in more wealth for everyone and better lifestyles.

Oh and the goal of technological development is usually to become more efficient hence making profit (or in case of military tech more efficient at killing). Putting people out of work is not usually an engineering objective.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

The only thing more soul destroying would be working for someone else for free watching them earn a decent wage and all the things they can afford and yet yourself doing the same work for the dole..........enter the national internship scheme!

Spacedog

There's nothing set in stone says you have to work in a factory or a carpet school until the day you die. Do your part by making use of the time you have, do stuff you always wanted to but never had the time. paint, play music, break stuff and learn how it works. truth is the grass is always greener on the other side, when everyone was working they were miserable because they had no time. get involved with real community stuff or start your own.

Hoopshead11

Spacedog wrote: »

There's nothing set in stone says you have to work in a factory or a carpet school until the day you die. Do your part by making use of the time you have, do stuff you always wanted to but never had the time. paint, play music, break stuff and learn how it works. truth is the grass is always greener on the other side, when everyone was working they were miserable because they had no time. get involved with real community stuff or start your own.

Paint,play music,break stuff,sounds great but what if you don't have the money to pay the mortgage,gas,electricity,schoolbooks,car, and 101 other things.
Was unemployed for 4 months a couple of years ago after losing my job and i can honestly say it was the worst time of my life. It's soul destroying.

angelfire9

Deleted User wrote: »

The only thing more soul destroying would be working for someone else for free watching them earn a decent wage and all the things they can afford and yet yourself doing the same work for the dole..........enter the national internship scheme!

I hate myself for doing it and I hate the scheme and what it represents but I applied for a few internship positions today

I've been looking for work for over 12 months there is just nothing out there for me in the Clare/Limerick/Galway area
I've applied for hundreds of positions where I didn't even get an acknowledgement

I've done interviews for jobs to be told that I'm either over qualified or my qualifications/experience are too broad and not specialised enough for the role I'd applied for

It really is getting me down I need to get out of the house before I crack up so I applied for a few internships knowing that more than likely even if I get one I'm probably not going to learn much, I certainly amn't going to earn much but I'm hoping it might keep the insanity at bay for a few months because honestly job hunting is really getting me down

It really is completely soul destroying
I did an interview last week I honestly thought I'd done well but didn't get it, I asked for feedback to be told I'd done an excellent interview and was well suited to the role but they found someone else who was "perfect"
I actually cried
There is only so much rejection one person can take and people that are in cushy jobs don't have a clue how depressing it can get to be long term unemployed
We are not all scroungers!

cavedave

angelfire9

I hate myself for doing it and I hate the scheme and what it represents but I applied for a few internship positions today

Don't hate yourself for doing it. You are trying to make the best of a bad situation. and that is to be commended.

ei.sdraob

Since the industrial age we had more mechanization and automation and despite any Luddite ramblings it resulted in more wealth for everyone and better lifestyles.

They have and they have always been wrong up until now. they have been right in the sense that 19/20 people used to be farmers and now we all have much more diverse jobs. I would bet there are more professional painters in Ireland now than there was in Italy during the renaissance. At the very least the majority of those employed now do not have jobs our grandfathers would have considered as 'proper work'.

nesf

The key difference is between those on the dole who want to be productive and those on the dole who don't give a ****. This is why we should have sliding scales of dole payment (i.e. better for the first few years and declining over time) and so on.

Ostrom

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Oh and the goal of technological development is usually to become more efficient hence making profit (or in case of military tech more efficient at killing). Putting people out of work is not usually an engineering objective.

Perhaps not, but it seems to be an inevitable consequence. In either case, the benchmark is not technological development, it is profit - I'm not sure you can discuss one apart from the other.

Full report here: http://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publications/workingpapers/gearywp201116.pdf

D1stant

nesf wrote: »

The key difference is between those on the dole who want to be productive and those on the dole who don't give a ****. This is why we should have sliding scales of dole payment (i.e. better for the first few years and declining over time) and so on.

And the amount you get on the dole is proportionate to how much tax you have paid (with a celing obviously)

I actually think people on the dole should be made sign on twice a week in person, 3 days apart. This would cut out SW tourists, and disrupt the black economy.

I know there are genuine and talented people on the dole, there is also a significant minority who see it as their right to live on the states back ad infinitum. The system has to be designed to discriminate against fraudsters and wasters. If that upsets the genuine case - too bad

The 'poor me I have to wait in line to get free money' cuts no fucking ice whatsoever

nesf

D1stant wrote: »

The 'poor me I have to wait in line to get free money' cuts no fucking ice whatsoever

It's pretty degrading for those whom being on the dole is an embarrassment or shame though.

Raekwon

Deleted User wrote: »

The only thing more soul destroying would be working for someone else for free watching them earn a decent wage and all the things they can afford and yet yourself doing the same work for the dole..........enter the national internship scheme!

Agreed. Adopting communist ideas into a capitalist society is beyond idiotic. The Irish government are just digging themselves further into their self-made abyss by introducing these badly thought-out schemes. IMO they are designed solely to cover their own backs, while conveniently obscuring the true unemployment figures and are actually counter-productive as they are keeping people out of paid employment.

sarumite

D1stant wrote: »

And the amount you get on the dole is proportionate to how much tax you have paid (with a celing obviously)

I actually think people on the dole should be made sign on twice a week in person, 3 days apart. This would cut out SW tourists, and disrupt the black economy.

I know there are genuine and talented people on the dole, there is also a significant minority who see it as their right to live on the states back ad infinitum. The system has to be designed to discriminate against fraudsters and wasters. If that upsets the genuine case - too bad

The 'poor me I have to wait in line to get free money' cuts no fucking ice whatsoever

I would guess the extra work required to do it would probably cost more than the SW tourists do. I don't see how your system disriminates against the fraudster and wasters. They don't care about going in twice a week as tehy have nothing better to do, whereas the genuine unemployed person is wasting an extra day a week going into the dole office when they could be out job hunting.

D1stant

sarumite wrote: »

I would guess the extra work required to do it would probably cost more than the SW tourists do. I don't see how your system disriminates against the fraudster and wasters. They don't care about going in twice a week as tehy have nothing better to do, whereas the genuine unemployed person is wasting an extra day a week going into the dole office when they could be out job hunting.

Im not sure it would waste a day

Also not sure what SW tourists or the blackmarket costs the state but I would guess that its much more than the cost of doubling up on Dole hatch personel

listermint

nesf wrote: »

It's pretty degrading for those whom being on the dole is an embarrassment or shame though.

Which ever way its painted its still free money. I got over any embarrassment pretty quick at the time.

sarumite

D1stant wrote: »

Im not sure it would waste a day

Also not sure what SW tourists or the blackmarket costs the state but I would guess that its much more than the cost of doubling up on Dole hatch personel

By the time you do the travel, stand in line and travel home, the best part of a day is gone. Even if its not a full day, I woudl personally see it as an unecessary waste of my time, the dole offices time and the tax payers time.

Possibly does cost more than doubling the dole hatch, though I don't think doubling the dole hatch personell will solve the problem, thus the cost of fraud would not be negated..

Rubik.

listermint wrote: »

Which ever way its painted its still free money. I got over any embarrassment pretty quick at the time.

PRSI contributions are paid into the Social Insurance Fund, the dole in turn is paid out of this fund - so it is not free money

knotknowbody

angelfire9 wrote: »

I did an interview last week I honestly thought I'd done well but didn't get it, I asked for feedback to be told I'd done an excellent interview and was well suited to the role but they found someone else who was "perfect"

More likely that the managers brother/cousin/nephew etc. was out of work and kind of half suited to the position, I was talking to a recruitment expert recently and he was telling me that 82% of open positions are filled by people with contacts in the company, many of the people hired are not the most suitable for the job but get it anyway as a favour.

In contrast 4-5 years ago 58% of positions were filled by people who had never had any contact with the hiring company before and did not know anybody working there either.

The point is you need a large network of contacts to get a job nowadays and you need to pester them to tell you about every slight rumour that there might be a position open in their company.

meglome

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

While I agree that such a system might be open to abuse there are easy ways to track in what country an IP address is based.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

nesf

meglome wrote: »

While I agree that such a system might be open to abuse there are easy ways to track in what country an IP address is based.

IP addresses can be spoofed though.

Icepick

The gvt should send unemployed to the likes of Ballyfermot and Ballymun to show them how you can be unemployed and happy.

RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There are ways to cheat every computer system ever devised. However, with careful planning and good contract engineers, I would say a pretty robust system could be created. It certainly could be open to abuse but the current system is too.

It's not really about saving money, it's just an idea that could make being unemployed less humiliating for alot of people which would naturally improve their lives. I think the genuine unemployed deserve some dignity and as I see it, the current system does not do that at all.

angelfire9

To be honest I wouldn't give a damn about signing on every bloody day if I thought there was a hope in hell that I might actually find a decent job somewhere but it appears that nepotism is alive and well in the Ireland of 2011


Its not the signing on that is killing me
Its sending out CV after CV after CV and not even getting an acknowledgement and going to the trouble of getting dressed up, hair done, make-up on, petrol in car & driving 40-60 minutes for an interview for a position that in reality has already been given to someone's cousin, brother, uncle, cat sitter......

RichardAnd

angelfire9 wrote: »

To be honest I wouldn't give a damn about signing on every bloody day if I thought there was a hope in hell that I might actually find a decent job somewhere but it appears that nepotism is alive and well in the Ireland of 2011


Its not the signing on that is killing me
Its sending out CV after CV after CV and not even getting an acknowledgement and going to the trouble of getting dressed up, hair done, make-up on, petrol in car & driving 40-60 minutes for an interview for a position that in reality has already been given to someone's cousin, brother, uncle, cat sitter......

Ireland is built on nepotism, I'm afraid to say

meglome

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

nesf wrote: »

IP addresses can be spoofed though.

I agree, one thing is for sure though the current system is pretty broken so I'm all for listening to new ways of fixing it.

Inverse to the power of one!

nesf wrote: »

IP addresses can be spoofed though.

Then just use a kiosk, card biometric system at the office rather then having the drudgery of someone who can't lose their job looking down on those who have.

It's not rocket science......yet, ironically for the govt and it's untouchable minions it would be a feat of intergalactic proportions that would no doubt would have to be delivered at a cost of hundreds of millions.

F**k it, let's just cut the dole some more and hire some more indignants to sit behind plate glass to further crush some spirits.

Same as it ever was, and it ain't changing.

Ironman76

Out of work 6 months at the end of this month. I have been positive and kept the head up but really am starting to get worried now. What is interesting is any job I apply for thats directly to the company they interview me, recruiters on the other hand. . .dont get me started. Scumbags!

Interview Monday and whether or not I get the job, Im just grateful to at least be given a chance. Nice to know the four years I spent busting my ass in night college isnt all in vain.

HellFireClub

By Jesus can I speak for this thread, and I've discussed the experience at length recently enough on this forum. So much so in fact, that for the rest of my time on this earth, I will dispise PS workers over how I was treated by the overpaid PS scum behind the counter down at Hatch 45.

Vizzy

RichardAnd wrote: »

Ireland is built on nepotism, I'm afraid to say

So if your cousin/brother/father/girlfriend was unemployed and was suited to the position you wouln't give them favourable treatment(i.e if two candidates were more or less equally suited) ?

RichardAnd

Vizzy wrote: »

So if your cousin/brother/father/girlfriend was unemployed and was suited to the position you wouln't give them favourable treatment(i.e if two candidates were more or less equally suited) ?

That's the catch 22 I'm afraid. We always want to help out those we care about and to do that, we sometimes step into grey moral areas. It's not a position I've ever been in so I honestly can't say what I'd do.

Inverse to the power of one!

Vizzy wrote: »

So if your cousin/brother/father/girlfriend was unemployed and was suited to the position you wouln't give them favourable treatment(i.e if two candidates were more or less equally suited) ?

NO!

I would expect my cousin/brother/father/girlfriend to have enough pride to tell me to go f**k myself even if I did offer.

That's where this country fall's on it's knee's time and time again! I've known poor Americans from the wrong side of the tracks with half the wealth of the average Irish person......But you know what! They have twice the pride and integrity for not mooching of those around them, working hard and not expecting others in their family to be their crutch.

This country is sick and depraved with such attitudes!

jank

RichardAnd wrote: »

The thing is though, we seem to treat the genuine unemployed horribly in this country. Sure, the dole is quite high when compared to other countries but the whole system of signing on to get it is just dehumanisng. I think that in the 21st century, the idea of dole queues needs to be adressed. It should be possible to have some system where by the unemployed can sign on online and recieve their benifits directly into a bank account in privacy and anonymity.

Are you serious? That would be a recipe for abuse. What is to stop someone from say going to the UK or even Australia while still claiming the dole. Spain do something like this and my ex flatmate did this for a year while he was coaching tennis to kids in Sydney.....
As he said "That is the reason why Spain has 20% unemployment"...
Show up in person every week is that only fool proof way of doing it imo.

jill_valentine

meglome wrote: »

I agree, one thing is for sure though the current system is pretty broken so I'm all for listening to new ways of fixing it.

One good start is if the staff in the Dole office were a bit better informed, bit more helpful, and a bit less relentlessly, consistently hostile and rude.

I was on the dole briefly for a few months back in The Good Old Days, and it was an unpleasant, dehumanising experience even then. I can't imagine how horrible it is now, and I don't think the contempt I acquired for the people behind the windows will ever leave me.

Good luck folks, I hope things pick up for you.

books4sale

nesf wrote: »

The key difference is between those on the dole who want to be productive and those on the dole who don't give a ****. This is why we should have sliding scales of dole payment (i.e. better for the first few years and declining over time) and so on.

Yeah, wanting to be productive on the dole, nice one, where did you come up with that idea and hOw you going to test it?

Get a team psyches in to evaluate everyone, yeah? or call round to everyones house in the morning to make sure their out of bed, right?

Been on the dole myself for a year I understand the soul destroying aspect, ...been there, done that, not goin' back ..never!

bEST

Inverse to the power of one!

jank wrote: »

Are you serious? That would be a recipe for abuse. What is to stop someone from say going to the UK or even Australia while still claiming the dole. Spain do something like this and my ex flatmate did this for a year while he was coaching tennis to kids in Sydney.....
As he said "That is the reason why Spain has 20% unemployment"...
Show up in person every week is that only fool proof way of doing it imo.

Then just use a kiosk, card, biometric system

Still lots of potential to improve the process imo, were we to free up DFSW workers from the kiosks, we could have them focus on investigating people who are scamming the dole. More positive all around.

RichardAnd

jank wrote: »

Are you serious? That would be a recipe for abuse. What is to stop someone from say going to the UK or even Australia while still claiming the dole. Spain do something like this and my ex flatmate did this for a year while he was coaching tennis to kids in Sydney.....
As he said "That is the reason why Spain has 20% unemployment"...
Show up in person every week is that only fool proof way of doing it imo.

The system as it is is already rife with abuse. On top of this, it dehumanises and demoralises genuine claimants. Thus, I am strongly of the opinion that something has to be done to make the experience less onerous to those who find themselves in need of aid. You seem to be thinking I'm suggesting some sort of facebook style social welfare site where one could sign up and that's that, I'm not. What I'm suggesting is that technology be considered and applied to improve this system and the lives of those under its auspice.

jank

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Still lots of potential to improve the process imo, were we to free up DFSW workers from the kiosks, we could have them focus on investigating people who are scamming the dole. More positive all around.

Nothing stopping giving someone else a fob and getting them to input the details for you. Biometric authentication would be interesting but we are talking about the Irish public service here

jank

RichardAnd wrote: »

The system as it is is already rife with abuse. On top of this, it dehumanises and demoralises genuine claimants. Thus, I am strongly of the opinion that something has to be done to make the experience less onerous to those who find themselves in need of aid. You seem to be thinking I'm suggesting some sort of facebook style social welfare site where one could sign up and that's that, I'm not. What I'm suggesting is that technology be considered and applied to improve this system and the lives of those under its auspice.

As I mentioned in a previous post we are talking about the Public service here. How likely are they to radically change their work practices? We all remember the e-voting debacle. I would be all for a new system that would be secure and not open to abuse at all. I know that it can be done as I work in the IT industry but designing, building and implementing a system is very different to a back of a hanky talking points.

As it stands right now with the technology in use right now in the public sector such a system would be rife and open to abuse.

Inverse to the power of one!

jank wrote: »

Nothing stopping giving someone else a fob and getting them to input the details for you. Biometric authentication would be interesting but we are talking about the Irish public service here

Agreed on the fob, which is why I mention the biometric as a requirement.

Sadly I acknowledge your point on the inability of our PS to implement such complex system on a cost effective basis

But...here's an interesting point

Biometrics are already in use in one form of state accepted identification. Passports have a highly effective face ratio system that would be hard to cheat, and this is already in use around the world....Burma uses this on their border controls!

So the knowledge is out there and in everyday use, I too work in IT, and I wouldn't think it too far a stretch that knowledge could be transfered from DFA to DFSW such that the same facial biometric system could be transferred to the PPS card we all receive to be implemented on a cost effective basis by a well sourced system integrator.

Then I remind myself of what country we are talking about and I'm almost ready to cry.......

That's the worst thing of having lived in NZ like yourself, once you see an efficient form of Govt at work, it's a constant and painful reminder of the deficiencies we live with, all the further magnified by the supposed premise that we are a developed first rate western European state. Again, I'm almost in tears, were it not for family and friends, I'd be living feral in the hills of Gisborne!

catbear

been on the dole myself back in the early nineties and various work placement schemes etc....
Hated the dole queue but used the placements to my advantage. I made myself invaluable and then starting taking days off to do interviews for real jobs etc... Usually got me a contract with placement employer.
Again I hated being on the dole and I hated the queue, I too cried out of frustration but I learned things during that time that came extremely useful years later. For example I wanted to understand why economic recessions/depressions happen and pre internet days I picked up some handy books in the library. At the height of the property bubble I recognised all the warning signs from what I had read during my time on the dole. got out of the bubble economy, took a job that no one wanted during the boom and I'm riding out this recession/depression.
I'm not rich or wealthy, I just wanted to be happy.
So if all you've got is time, although it's depressing to talk about it, gobble up what information you can and it will pay you in the future.

nesf

books4sale wrote: »

Yeah, wanting to be productive on the dole, nice one, where did you come up with that idea and hOw you going to test it?

Get a team psyches in to evaluate everyone, yeah? or call round to everyones house in the morning to make sure their out of bed, right?

Been on the dole myself for a year I understand the soul destroying aspect, ...been there, done that, not goin' back ..never!

bEST

Can't test it. What you can do is make staying long term on the dole very unattractive for people versus working. By this I mean like 5 years+. While making allowances for recessions where there isn't work for people to get.

maxxie

It is very easy from reading peoples posts to know who has genuinely been down on their luck and struggling, and those who have not experienced but look their nose down with arrogant comments.

Best of luck to those who need a break, your day will come!

Sunnyisland

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Ffinance%2Fjobs%2F7487745%2FEnd-of-signing-on-as-dole-moves-online.html&ei=GsVPTuevKMe1hAeg4NHCBg&usg=AFQjCNEdgYNX2V04InpVg_Rbvepx0o-HcA

Signing on – the duty performed by the jobless to qualify for unemployment benefit down the ages – is to be consigned to history under ...



That is the Uk, have heard some Irish minister considering the same thing.