I need advice as to where I stand legally on issue

Tea_Bag

Right so straight to the point, one of the guys i share an apartment with went on a bender the other night after a staff party and brought back a few of his friends to the house and partied until 6.30am (when we went to shut them up )

anyway, i got called in to speak to the letting agency we deal with and we've had a complaint from a neighbor about loud music and someone pissing off the balcony @ 6.45am:eek:

Whether this is true or not is going to be hard to establish but judging by the time the incident was said to take place (15min after the party ended and everyone was going home) and that the neighbor is a bit of a prick (last time they complained it was because there was too much ash from fags by our front door :rolleyes: makes me little weary to believe him.

now, i plan on staying in this house for at least another 12 months (have been here for 2 years already, but never renewed my lease in writing:o) and the guy who was having the party is moving out at the end of this month (and only been here for the summer)...

anyway, ive been told im getting a letter soon from the landlord saying basically that "if it happens again you're out"

now, im not trying to take the piss here (no pun intended), and i know that any party to 6.30am is inconsiderate and down right ignorant, but i rent this house as a "whole" not room by room so i do have some responsibility here, but i just want some info on where i stand here, legally. im a big boy so be straight with me:o


i cant afford to be looking around for a new place to rent from September as im very busy with work and repeat exams in college.:(

thanks for reading and any advice welcomed:)

seamus

Not sure what you're asking here really. The terms of your lease will likely contain terms about noise and nuisance and so forth, so yes they would be within their rights to terminate your lease and ask you to move out.
However as you've been a tenant for more than 2 years, you would be entitled to 56 days notice.

As you're effectively subletting the room (I gather from your post), then it's entirely your responsibility to ensure that your tenants aren't asshats.

First thing I would do is go down and apologise to the neighbour and assure him that the other guy is gone at the end of the month. This should get him on your side and stop him from making any further complaints (valid or otherwise) since he knows that the guy is moving out anyway.

Tea_Bag

seamus wrote: »

Not sure what you're asking here really. The terms of your lease will likely contain terms about noise and nuisance and so forth, so yes they would be within their rights to terminate your lease and ask you to move out.
However as you've been a tenant for more than 2 years, you would be entitled to 56 days notice.

As you're effectively subletting the room (I gather from your post), then it's entirely your responsibility to ensure that your tenants aren't asshats.

First thing I would do is go down and apologise to the neighbour and assure him that the other guy is gone at the end of the month. This should get him on your side and stop him from making any further complaints (valid or otherwise) since he knows that the guy is moving out anyway.

Thanks Seamus. not sure what im asking either tbh but just finding out that im entitled to 56 days notice is a bit of a relief and makes this post worthwhile:o.

i dont think the contract actually stated that, it was a simple 1 page 2 paragraph thing with our signatures:rolleyes:. my copy has been lost some time ago and id feel scummy going to ask them for a new copy at this stage due to the incident.

im not exactly subletting, its just some friends renting an apartment for XXX per month instead of per room to save on overall rent (brings its own risks obviously) but im the only original tenant remaining out of us as everyone has moved away/graduated, so the landlord and agency only seem to deal with me when it comes to anything:o. i doubt the other lads got the text to go in and see the agency anyway.

W/r/t apologizing to the complaining neighbor, thats a good idea and fair enough:)

It probably wont be the last party ever in this house (we are in a studenty area tbf) but ill be more vigilant in the future. as i said, even i think 6.30am is ignorant.:mad:

luckly for the lads throwing the thing i had a tough night at work so came home and OD'd on strong sleeping pills that meant i slept like a rock till the afternoon the next day:D

now, how to tell my landlord that the dryer is broken and will need replacing...:P

seamus

Since you're not subletting, then it's not entirely up to you, but in scenarios where the place is rented on a single lease (i.e. each tenant isn't paying rent separately), then it's kind of a community effort to not get kicked out.

Still no harm to apologise to the neighbour and even tell him that you've evicted the troublesome tenant. He might appreciate that

mebird

Teabag, I think you are asking if you jointly and severally liable ( ie are you responsible for the partyboy's behaviour ) ... and yes you are.

Those statutory notice periods referred to by seamus only apply in the absence of a Fixed Term ( which appears the case with you ) and in certain instances i.e if the Landlord wants the property back to sell or for family etc.

If the landlord thinks his property is being damaged, he can serve a seven day eviction notice... but you would want to be a pretty unreasonable tenant and have done some bad stuff to have this enforced.

If party boy is leaving and you promise no one is going to piss on off the balcony again, I think you will be alright.

Tea_Bag

mebird wrote: »

Teabag, I think you are asking if you jointly and severally liable ( ie are you responsible for the partyboy's behaviour ) ... and yes you are.

Those statutory notice periods referred to by seamus only apply in the absence of a Fixed Term ( which appears the case with you ) and in certain instances i.e if the Landlord wants the property back to sell or for family etc.

If the landlord thinks his property is being damaged, he can serve a seven day eviction notice... but you would want to be a pretty unreasonable tenant and have done some bad stuff to have this enforced.

If party boy is leaving and you promise no one is going to piss on off the balcony again, I think you will be alright.

that has me confused. what exactly is the terms of a 56 day notice period?

while ive agreed to renew my contract for another 12 months, ive not signed anything because the agency has been quite lazy at drawing up the contract, something ive not exactly helped remind them about cause they want my PPS number to apparently put me and the other housemates onto some "landlords board" thing where they can review us and share infomation on our past andif we'd make good tennants. sounds a bit too conspiracy theory for me so i just never brought up the thing again.

is there such a thing? i wouldnt want my future credit destroyed by an unreasonable and bad tempered landlord. (and ive had a few. 1 wanted us to replace a POS fridge that had broken through no fault of our own and valued it at something like €250 and said if we didnt replace it we'd lose our deposits for a new one )

mebird

Tea bag, worry not. Landlords are required to register each tenancy with a Quango called the PRTB ( Private Residential Tenancies Board ). There is no point to this, but the landlord is required to do it by law. Up until recently, when registering this tenancy, the landlord was required to give the name of the tenants and their PPS numbers... again to no purpose other than create administration and paper work. After six years, the PRTB realised how pointless it was asking the landlord to ask you and party boy for your PPS numbers.. and they stopped making it a requirement. Had you given the PPS number in the first place... it is probably lost.... as the PRTB have no tenancy database ( only a property one .. there is a difference but it is not relevant right now ).

Anyway, to your lease question. There are two types of tenancies under the law. You do not need a written 'lease' to constitute a tenancy by the way, so not having signed something does not mean you can walk away or the landlord can kick you out.

The first type of tenancy is a fixed term tenancy. This has an end date that has been agreed between parties. Most tenancies begin as a fixed term of 12 months. If another fixed term has not been formally agreed ( in writing or otherwise ), the tenancy becomes a periodic or month to month tenancy.

It sounds like you agreed a further fixed term ( although you didn't sign anything ). This means you can't give notice and up and leave and the landlord can't gain possession. If you didn't agree a further fixed term, you are in a month to month tenancy..... but again don't worry because the landlord can only gain possession in six different scenarios ( if he wants to sell the place, if he wants his kids to move in ...and others that won't apply ).

The landlord can only serve notice on you if don't pay the rent or you give him adequate reason to believe you are wrecking the place... although pissing off the balcony might not qualify it certainly does not help your defense if you were to go on Joe Duffy.

Anyway hope that helps.

Yes, I am sad for knowing this stuff.

uberwolf

@mebird

tell me more. I'm uncertain of the precise wording, so this is just an exploration, but my mortgage contains a clause preventing me from establishing a lease. I'm pretty sure that the word used is lease.
From what you're saying, is it worth scratching at this a bit more? In that your typical residential 'letting' doesn't actually involve a lease, in the legal sense.

@OP The timing of the pissing is hardly material, your neighbour is hardly expected to be precise to the minute at that time of the day when he's spent his night trying to sleep under his pillow. I'd say approach him to say the other chap is gone.
Same with the landlord.

mebird

uberwolf wrote: »

@mebird

tell me more. I'm uncertain of the precise wording, so this is just an exploration, but my mortgage contains a clause preventing me from establishing a lease. I'm pretty sure that the word used is lease.
From what you're saying, is it worth scratching at this a bit more? In that your typical residential 'letting' doesn't actually involve a lease, in the legal sense.

In the residential market, the word ' lease ' is usually used to describe the signed contract between the landlord and tenant, ie the piece of paper. However, in law, a tenancy can exist in the absence of a signed lease, or one that has expired. In other words, they would probably say nice try but no cigar.

You could create a tenancy without signing a lease.

I would suggest though in your instance, the mortgagee would successfully argue that it was intended, for the purposes of a loan agreement, that lease and tenancy were the same and you understood this.

athtrasna

OP I can't believe how calm you are about the fact that the party went on til 6.30am and also that only one neighbour complained about it. Everyone is entitled to peaceful enjoyment of their home and as you mentioned it's an apartment, I don't know of any apartment complex whose rules allow noise audible from outside after midnight.

If that was our development, the noise thing is taken very seriously and if it went on that long the landlord could expect trouble from the MC as the landlord is ultimately responsible for ensuring that tenants comply with the development rules.

To be brutally honest, particularly given that there have been complaints against you before (you might think littering is trivial), I think getting a letter giving you one last chance is very decent of the landlord. Even though it wasn't you that was making the noise, all tenants are responsible for the noise disturbing the neighbours if none of you stopped it, the landlord cannot single out one tenant without proof/admission by the guilty party. Spare a thought also for your neighbours, in high density living, consideration is key.

xper

uberwolf wrote: »

@mebird
tell me more. I'm uncertain of the precise wording, so this is just an exploration, but my mortgage contains a clause preventing me from establishing a lease. I'm pretty sure that the word used is lease.
From what you're saying, is it worth scratching at this a bit more? In that your typical residential 'letting' doesn't actually involve a lease, in the legal sense.

Off topic for this thread so let's keep this short - there's nothing to scratch here. You're reading too much into mebird's chosen words. Your bank gave you a mortgage for a proprety you would live in. A mortgage for a property that you would let out would have different terms and rates so that's why your morgage's t&c's says leasing is a no-no. You can be sure that the bank's lawyers ensure that this covers all forms of renting out.

Lurching back on topic...

mebird describes the OP's situatuion as a month to month tenancy. I think this is a bit misleading. That phrase describes a Periodic Lease which exists where there is a no formal agreement between tenant and landlord and there has not been at any stage. But if I read the OP's posts correctly, he did sign a 12 month fixed term lease when he first moved in. Its just a new fixed term lease that he has not signed. If that is correct then he is actually now in a Part 4 Tenancy (and I think this is what mebird meant anyway because the conditions for eviction, length of notice by both parties described above come from these regulations). Note that there is still a lease in play - the terms of the original fixed term lease continue to apply in a Part 4 Tenancy.

Tea_bag, I suggest you read up on the different types of tenancies:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html
Its in your own interest to know this and other basic stuff before crises arise and to manage your home (it may be the landlord's property but it is your home) just as diligently as if you owned the property yourself. it stands to you in the long run.

As for the situation in hand, I don't think you, the agency, the landlord or your neighbour has acted unreasonably so you should be able to put this incident behind you and get on with life. There's a been an incident of unsocial behaviour which, whatever the missing two-paragraph lease said, would undoubtedly be against the Rules of the apartment complex you are in (you should be supplied a copy of these too with the lease but that often doesn't happen). Your advantage is that you were not directly involved in said incident and the culprit is departing the scene. So your role now is to make it clear that you agree with the agency/landlord/neighbour that what happended was unacceptable and won't happen again on your watch. You're the nice guy here.

As for signing a new lease, its up to you to decide if you want to. You are not obliged to do so - a Part 4 Tenancy gives you the right to stay there until four years from the day you moved in unless you break the original lease terms so, if you plan on moving on next year, it may give you more flexibility to not commit yourself to another fixed term (but you will have a lenghty period notice when you want to leave anyway). Then there's the broken dryer - you could use the lease issue as a bargaining chip for getting this replaced if the landlord drags his feet on replacing it - "I'll commit to another 12 minths if the dryer is replaced".
Its probably up to you to decide how to go on this taking your negotiation skills and the landlord's mood into account.

Oh, and don't drop your cigarette butts around your door! You're the nice neighbour, remember?!

Tea_Bag

Thanks everyone for the replies, as I said I'm a big boy I can take the criticism.
As for the fags thing I don't even smoke so its not me again. Well not while I'm home anyway and not sober. Rotten. They're outside the door cause we agreed no one will smoke in the house, but it wasn't actually butts but ah well.

mebird

xper wrote: »

Lurching back on topic...

mebird describes the OP's situatuion as a month to month tenancy. I think this is a bit misleading.

I did not describe OP's situation as a month to month tenancy. I said that in the absence of a fixed term agreement ( written or otherwise ), OP would be in a month to month tenancy.

However, I totally agree, the phrase Periodic or 'month to month' tenancy is misleading.... but it is used by the PRTB and others to describe a Part 4 tenancy.

I prefer to refer to it as a Part 4 tenancy but I was not about to get all technical with Tea Bag and his balcony peeing mate.