Data Protection Act & the Catholic Church

Cabaal

First Thing First:
THIS IS NOT A ANTI CATHOLIC/CHURCH DEBATE THREAD,
I don't want this to turn into a "pedo" bashing thread or any of that other crap I merely want thoughts on the situation I have outlined below to force the church to update its records as I have explained in more detail below.

Just wanted people's views on this, its based on my rough interpretation of the Data Protection Act in relation to what I'd like to do.

Lets give some back history, some of you may have been aware of a campaign known count me out.

This campaign basically promoted people's options in respect of the 1983 Code of Canon Law which allowed people to make a formal defection from the catholic church. However in April 2010 the church closed this "loop hole" of sorts as explained in more detail in http://countmeout.ie/suspension/.

So the current situation as outlined as of July 2011 (http://countmeout.ie/update200711.php) is nobody can still "quit" the church as the church will not formally recognise it.

Anyway I was thinking about this the other day and perhaps I've gotten it arse ways but perhaps the church would have to update its records to show you are not a member of the church due to the Data Protection Act.

Ok this belief is based on a view assumptions and situations which I've very briefly outlined below:

- Under the DPA a company or organisation is required to keep accurate data regarding a person, a copy of this data may be reviewed by the person (this may incur a charge) and the data must be stored safely and securely.

- Myself like many others will have recently filled out the 2011 Census, I filled out "no religion". I know this to be 100% accurate and it would be against the law for me to fill select this option if it was not 100% accurate as I would be liable for prosecution for filling out misleading information in the Census.

In addition to this my medical records with the likes of the HSE will also have belief information and the HSE etc must update this if I request it.

Now based on the above then surely in the eyes of the state and law I have no religion as that's the accurate and correct information I filled out in the census but I have an organisation (catholic church) who will not update their records to reflect that I am not a member of the catholic church.

This in my view is nothing short of a company or club still considering you a member or customer even after you cancel or quit and they will refuse to acknowledge this.

Are they breaking the DPA?

My interpretation of the data protection act may not be inaccurate but surely it can be used to force the Catholic Church to update their records to reflect the accurate information I would have previously supplied on the census or to the HSE etc.

What are people's views on this?

coylemj

Who the f*** cares what the HSE or any other agency thinks is my religion or what does it matter if the local Catholic parish thinks that you are a Catholic, what possible difference does it make you to personally?

Formal defection from the Catholic Church sounds like a meaningless and empty gesture which achieves precisely nothing.

You have little to be worrying about if that's all that's pressing on your mind!

Cabaal

coylemj wrote: »

Who the f*** cares what the HSE or any other agency thinks is my religion or what does it matter if the local Catholic parish thinks that you are a Catholic, what possible difference does it make you to personally?

Formal defection from the Catholic Church sounds like a meaningless and empty gesture which achieves precisely nothing.

You have little to be worrying about if that's all that's pressing on your mind!

Good man,
:rolleyes:

Anyway, many people actually give a crap about both agency's, company's and organisations keeping accurate and up to date information regarding them.

Thankfully for this very reason this is why we have such acts as the data protection act, of course if it was up to you I'm sure they'd be no such thing because after all "what does it matter".

If anyone has anything actually helpful to add it would be appreciated

coylemj

So if I had an operation in a hospital 20 years ago and told them that my religion was RC, what you're saying is that if I now wished to defect from the Catholic Church that the hospital should be required to dig up my record and change my religion to 'None'.

There is no central HSE register of patients so I assume that you'd like every hospital and clinic to be required when asked to alter their records to change the religion of someone who mightn't have crossed the threshold in 20 years.

Cabaal

coylemj wrote: »

So if I had an operation in a hospital 20 years ago and told them that my religion was RC, what you're saying is that if I now wished to defect from the Catholic Church that the hospital should be required to dig up my record and change my religion to 'None'.

There is no central HSE register of patients so I assume that you'd like every hospital and clinic to be required when asked to alter their records to change the religion of someone who mightn't have crossed the threshold in 20 years.

coylemj, I'm not getting into a debate with you I'm afraid as your "concerns" are off-topic to my actual query.

I've outlined my query, if you want to debate the legal issues surrounding the likes of the HSE updating patient details in-line with the data protection act then feel free to create a new thread and outline your issue.

My query is about the catholic church and the DPA,

jhegarty

The problem is the Church doesn't (as far as I know) keep a list of members.

If keeps a list of baptisms, but that's recording of an event that happened. So is accurate, and without a time machine can't unhappen.

Cabaal

jhegarty wrote: »

The problem is the Church doesn't (as far as I know) keep a list of members.

If keeps a list of baptisms, but that's recording of an event that happened. So is accurate, and without a time machine can't unhappen.

Good point,
However if they previously allowed people to leave this suggests that they do indeed have current records which they can update.

As you said they can unmake history so a current record/list would be the only way they could know who's with the church and who isn't surely?

coylemj

OK, let's stay with the Catholic Church.

As far as I'm aware the records in Catholic parishes are of specific events that happened in the past in people's lives, such as baptism and confirmation. There is not, to my knowledge, any record which says that Johnnie Citizen is today a member of the Catholic Church so I don't see that there are any DPA issues.

Nobody from the local Catholic Church has ever turned up on my doorstep doing a parish census so as far as I'm concerned there is no issue with the Catholic Church and the DPA because I was baptised and confirmed in my home town down the country and the parish I now live in has no record whatsoever of me.

jhegarty

Cabaal wrote: »

Good point,
However if they previously allowed people to leave this suggests that they do indeed have current records which they can update.

As you said they can unmake history so a current record/list would be the only way they could know who's with the church and who isn't surely?

If they have a list , then you would be correct about the DPA applying.

But I honestly don't think there is a list. You don't register with the Catholic Church in the same way some Protestant denominations do.

coylemj

Cabaal wrote: »

However if they previously allowed people to leave this suggests that they do indeed have current records which they can update.

No it doesn't. They were just too timid to tell them to sod off because in the current climate the Catholic Church has it's back to the wall and doesn't want any negative publicity so they are afraid to stand up to people trying to make a meaningless gesture.

CeannRua

OP, there is precedent here as the Data Protection Commissioner has a case study about similar query on web: http://dataprotection.ie/docs/Case_Study_8/03_Catholic_Church_Baptismal_Records/107.htm

gaius c

coylemj wrote: »

No it doesn't. They were just too timid to tell them to sod off because in the current climate the Catholic Church has it's back to the wall and doesn't want any negative publicity so they are afraid to stand up to people trying to make a meaningless gesture.

This person obviously has a bit of a vested interest in either derailing or blocking off discussion on the matter. Is there an ignore function I can use?

I had a discussion with a friend of my parents before and this subject came up in a roundabout fashion. You know when you want to get married in a church and you've moved from where you grew up and end up having to go back to your original parish and dig up baptismal and confirmation certs so you can get married? I asked why the church didn't have a centralised list to allow you to sort out the paperwork without having to take a day off work and the response was that such a centralised list would cause problems re the data protection act. Individual parishes maintain their own records (she was very careful not to call them lists) of who is baptised, confirmed, etc but these are not the same as lists/records/etc of actual practicising catholics.

later12

gaius c wrote: »

This person obviously has a bit of a vested interest in either derailing or blocking off discussion on the matter. Is there an ignore function I can use?

What he, and other users, are saying is saying is technically correct. Church records record events that have occurred in the past.

When I did my junior cert I made a bad, nervous mistake and got a bad grade in maths. I looked like a maths dunce. When I did my leaving cert I was far more fluent in maths and aced the test, I went on to enrol in mathematical courses in 3rd level institutions.

I can't reasonably go and ask the Department of Education to erase or update my school records for what is, in fact, an accurate record of an historical fact, regardless of what has since happened.

I am more than entitled to make records elsewhere which demonstrate that I am not today, a maths dunce, in the same way that the OP is entitled to go elsewhere to impress upon people that he is not, today, a Catholic. But he can't just choose to wipe out the record that certain events have happened, just because he doesn't like that they happened.

Cabaal

later10 wrote: »

I am more than entitled to make records elsewhere which demonstrate that I am not today, a maths dunce, in the same way that the OP is entitled to go elsewhere to impress upon people that he is not, today, a Catholic. But he can't just choose to wipe out the record that certain events have happened, just because he doesn't like that they happened.

Very true,
I think however the problem when it comes to religion is unlike the junior or leaving cert you as a person had no actual input on being christened in the first place.

As such whilst you can create records elsewhere the roman catholic church still affirmatively have you down as a member of their faith on their "lists"...sorry I mean historical records.

Whilst I understand that people are saying you can't change a historical event it is pretty insulting to everybody that the church did allow people to official leave the church (defection from the Catholic Church by a formal act) up until April 2010 and then decided to change the rules to stop this.

MagicSean

Op you have been told they don't have lists or a centralized database. They have records of events which actually happened. What exactly do you want to do? Is it that you want to write "no longer catholic" across your baptismal cert? Or do you want to pretend you were never baptised?

Our man in Havana

Is it that you want to write "no longer catholic" across your baptismal cert?

That is what they were doing until they stopped allowing defections. I has my amended cert framed and displayed prominently in my house. It is a nice talking point.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That is what they were doing until they stopped allowing defections. I has my amended cert framed and displayed prominently in my house. It is a nice talking point.

What is the point? They'll still have a record of the baptism. You were still baptised. It's just a pointless ornament. It hasn't changed anything.

Our man in Havana

I suppose not but it has registered my dissatisfaction with the church.

When you live in a small village with an active God Squad it does actually make a point.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

I suppose not but it has registered my dissatisfaction with the church.

When you live in a small village with an active God Squad it does actually make a point.

So you weren't on any centralised list until you registered yourself as dissatisfied with them? Now you are on a list as a former Catholic? I see a certain irony here. Personally I just stopped going to mass and when people ask me about my religion I say i have none. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. People will still assume you're Catholic based on your accent, home, name, school etc...

patff

jhegarty wrote: »

The problem is the Church doesn't (as far as I know) keep a list of members.

If keeps a list of baptisms, but that's recording of an event that happened. So is accurate, and without a time machine can't unhappen.

My local parish sends me a box of envelopes called "Parish Dues" on a yearly basis. My name and address is printed on the box, so presumably the parish admins get this from some form of official list, because I certainly don't make an application for it.

Regarding the defection issue, I applied for this in the past year but was told that it was impossible and that baptism could not be undone. I was told that a note of my desire not to be a catholic would be placed at the front of the baptismal record, which could be removed if I ever changed my mind.

I accept that the baptismal record is a historical record and should remain intact, but annotating a record doesn't alter the original, justs provides an updated version.

It sucks to have to opt out of something you never opted into.

coylemj

gaius c wrote: »

This person obviously has a bit of a vested interest in either derailing or blocking off discussion on the matter. Is there an ignore function I can use?

You stated this in respect of my contribution to the debate. It would be useful if you quoted the specific opinion or statement I've expressed to which you take exception instead of just making an attempt to have me censored.

gaius c wrote: »

I had a discussion with a friend of my parents before and this subject came up in a roundabout fashion. You know when you want to get married in a church and you've moved from where you grew up and end up having to go back to your original parish and dig up baptismal and confirmation certs so you can get married?

I asked why the church didn't have a centralised list to allow you to sort out the paperwork without having to take a day off work and the response was that such a centralised list would cause problems re the data protection act. Individual parishes maintain their own records (she was very careful not to call them lists) of who is baptised, confirmed, etc but these are not the same as lists/records/etc of actual practicising catholics.

What exactly is your point?

Orion

coylemj wrote: »

What exactly is your point?

What exactly is yours? Where exactly have you contributed to the actual question being asked which is about the RCC and the DPA. Is there a single post from you where you have attempted to answer that question?

later12

patff wrote: »

My local parish sends me a box of envelopes called "Parish Dues" on a yearly basis. My name and address is printed on the box, so presumably the parish admins get this from some form of official list, because I certainly don't make an application for it.

It depends on your parish but my family get that and we're from a non Roman Catholic congregation. I always presumed our address was taken from the register of electors.

These are usually very small brown envelopes which are very handy for storing seeds.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

What exactly is your point?

Orion wrote: »

What exactly is yours? Where exactly have you contributed to the actual question being asked which is about the RCC and the DPA. Is there a single post from you where you have attempted to answer that question?

I have addressed the issue and have done so in the context both of the Catholic Church and the DPA if you're prepared to review my posts....

coylemj wrote: »

Formal defection from the Catholic Church sounds like a meaningless and empty gesture which achieves precisely nothing.

coylemj wrote: »

There is not, to my knowledge, any record which says that Johnnie Citizen is today a member of the Catholic Church so I don't see that there are any DPA issues.