Sexton verse O'Gara *mod warning post 2*

Sulkin

I have a preference for one but I won't say: I simply want to see who you think is better and more importantly why?

It's the age old Munster verse Leinster rivalry but what sets one out ahead of the other.

Very interested to hear Leinster fans, Munster fans and Neutrals thoughts on this.

justsomebloke

wow mod warning from the off set on this, any crap what so ever and I will lock it without warning aswell

Zzippy

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhh here, not this again!

IBTL

justsomebloke

Zzippy wrote: »

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhh here, not this again!

IBTL

actually as it's my first rog v sexton stupid debate as mod I was going to use it as a stupidity filter before the world cup

Paulw

I can see this thread going downhill quickly and being locked.

Each player has their strengths and weaknesses.

O'Gara is a more tactical kicker and slightly better with a penalty.

Sexton is a much better passer and tackler.

Personally, I prefer Sexton to start and having ROG ready to come in and close out the game.

Tomtom364

They both have good aspects that are better then each other and overall are completly equal in value....

That seems like a safe bet...

maxxie

relax joe! were not sorting out the middle east here!

O gara to play against France! More consistent and in a better place mentally.

prospect

I think it is largely irrelevant which is better.

They are both world class.

I think the focus should be on Sexton as he is the younger player and we should be looking to get him as much experience at the highest level. Experience is something no amount of training can help with.

But having O'Gara there too, well it is the ultimate luxury for DK really.

Gracelessly Tom

I think it depends on the opponent and the type of gameplan we want to use to be honest.

Have to say, we're lucky to have two outhalfs as good as these two. They work so well with one coming off the bench as they are both so different they change the entire shape of the game.

yupyup7up

Yep, Sexton to start and ROG to close out, or change a game if its just not happening for us.

Sexton is a better tackler and better with the ball in hand but ROG is a much better tactician.

We should try a running game with Sexton to build up a lead and have ROG see it out.

molloyjh

Horses for courses as they have different strengths to their games. Personally I'm just delighted we've 2 class OHs to choose from. We went for far too long with just the one. Now we've options in the event of either injury or variety in the way we play. As the great Seasick Steve likes to say "It's all good".

Sulkin

It's not a stupid debate but a matter of opinion-this forum won't get out of hand just good sporting rivalry like the type that always exist between Leinster and Munster...at the end of the day we're one country!!

redved

For me O'Gara to start. He's a little bit more consistent.
Probably going to get blasted for this but of course Sexton looks better going forward/ passing etc
He's been playing with D'arcy, BOD, Nacewa etc all his rugby playing life. ROG has been stuck with some donkeys in fairness.
I'd like to see how Sexton would get on with some of the Munster centres

phog

We're not allowed show a Munster bias here so I cant say who I prefer

roycon

The thing i love about the sexton o'gara battle is that rog used to rarely run the ball and wouldnt really put his body on the line in tackles and similarly sexton used to focus on running the ball maybe to the detriment of his kicking from hand but now both of them push each other (see rogs try against scotland and sextons ever improving kicking displays). its forced both players to keep improving and made them both better players.

id start sexton though except for a match where a specific kicking game was needed or we wanted to put pressure on the other teams wings and fullback for a certain period.

fitz

As I pointed out elsewhere, the more important selection is at scrumhalf.
Sexton provides more of an attacking threat with ball in hand than ROG, who provides more in terms of tactical kicking.
If we persist with playing the slow scrum-half with the guy who can work the backline-voodoo when he's given quick ball, and save the fast scrum half to play with the tactical mastermind who doesn't need the same time and space to work his positional-voodoo, we're never going to really see the best from Sexton, so this debate is a waste of time.

He will, however, continue to be criticised for having a "bad game" and for not creating anything when he's not getting the quick ball he needs to do so. The reaction to the Scotland game is a prime example. He was behind a misfiring pack, with O'Leary slowing things down further, how can you expect him to create opportunities in those circumstances. ROG would have done no better.

I think we're blessed to have both, but I think the real debate is to do with the half-back pairings as a unit, and the effect that has on our game, not the individual outhalves.

molloyjh

Sulkin wrote: »

It's not a stupid debate but a matter of opinion-this forum won't get out of hand just good sporting rivalry like the type that always exist between Leinster and Munster...at the end of the day we're one country!!

You're very charitable there but I know Joe wasn't the only one who winced when they saw the title. I'd say most of us thought the same thing. We've seen enough "debate" on this issue in particular over the last while to know what way it will inevitably go. Which is frustrating because they are both undoubtedly talented players and rather than celebrating the fact there are people who would rather choose sides.

Gracelessly Tom

redved wrote: »

For me O'Gara to start. He's a little bit more consistent.
Probably going to get blasted for this but of course Sexton looks better going forward/ passing etc
He's been playing with D'arcy, BOD, Nacewa etc all his rugby playing life. ROG has been stuck with some donkeys in fairness.
I'd like to see how Sexton would get on with some of the Munster centres

Maybe O'Gara's the reason they look like donkeys!! :D

B0X

It doesn't matter who starts as long as TOL does not start along side them. Quick service from a SH and they'll both be on their A game.

justsomebloke

My opinion is for Kidney to pick one for a match and stick with them unless changing them gives us a tactical advantage in the match that the other hasn't got. I think the crap on taking one off at the 60 minute mark to switch to the other during the 6 nations severed no purpose at all bar kidney trying to quieten the people that say he never makes subs.

Other that that stop forcing the sexton O'leary combination and let him play with redden, I just don't think he click's with O'Leary

Gracelessly Tom

Sulkin wrote: »

I have a preference for one but I won't say: I simply want to see who you think is better and more importantly why?

It's the age old Munster verse Leinster rivalry but what sets one out ahead of the other.

Very interested to hear Leinster fans, Munster fans and Neutrals thoughts on this.

Who's your preference for? You can't say you're not saying and yet ask all of us for our opinion!

colman1212

Two great players. really lucky to have both of them pushing each other for the place. Let them share the 10 spot and keep setting the bar higher for each other.

fitz

roycon wrote: »

The thing i love about the sexton o'gara battle is that rog used to rarely run the ball and wouldnt really put his body on the line in tackles and similarly sexton used to focus on running the ball maybe to the detriment of his kicking from hand but now both of them push each other (see rogs try against scotland and sextons ever improving kicking displays). its forced both players to keep improving and made them both better players.

This can't be overlooked either...it really has been a positive of the competition for the 10 spot.

phog

roycon wrote: »

............. rog used to rarely run the ball and wouldnt really put his body on the line in tackles ...........

That's a load of crap, ROG may not have the best technique in the world but he never shied away from tackles.

stephen_n

Either or Both!

bamboozle

both are great players, i prefer sexton if we're planning on getting the backline moving (but with proviso of Reddan at 9) and ROG if we need to dog out a game -the Oz WC pool match, the best way for us to win is to grind them down, play 10 man structured rugby kicking to corners and frustrate the life out of OZ, an open game plan is asking for trouble against the oz backs.
we're lucky to have both.

If we steadfastly stick to the idea that one is better than the other and that's that, then we will completely deprive ourselves of the ability to actually have a decent shot at winning any competitions.

There are times and teams and matches that you need ROG playing, you need someone to take the heat out of the game, and give our pack a breather. There are also times and teams and matches that need Sexton playing, when we realise that we can cut teams apart through the backline, and also when we're facing a team we can't seem to get the ball off.

Both are very very important to Ireland's chances of success in the near future. Just as D.Humphries and ROG worked well together back at the start of ROG's illustrious ireland career

molloyjh

Joe the Santa wrote: »

My opinion is for Kidney to pick one for a match and stick with them unless changing them gives us a tactical advantage in the match that the other hasn't got. I think the crap on taking one off at the 60 minute mark to switch to the other during the 6 nations severed no purpose at all bar kidney trying to quieten the people that say he never makes subs.

Other that that stop forcing the sexton O'leary combination and let him play with redden, I just don't think he click's with O'Leary

I could understand why he would change the OHs in certain situations and try to keep/put the opposition off-balance, but the problem is he makes the same changes at almost exactly the same time in every game. At the France game in Lansdowne earlier this year I got chatting to a couple of lads behind me and we predicted before kick off when ROG was going to come on as being somewhere around the 62nd or 63rd minnute. I think he came on in the 63rd or 64th if memory serves. But I remember we all looked at each other anyway and laughed at how accurate we were. It doesn't matter how the game is progressing or how the opposition is playing it's the same predictable stuff every time.

Riskymove

phog wrote: »

That's a load of crap, ROG may not have the best technique in the world but he never shied away from tackles.

yeah, that myth is fairly annoying

he never shirked tackles...he just isn't a very effective tackler


tbh I can't understand why people just can't be happy that we have two top class outhalves which gives us options with strategy and replacements etc

ROG will be finished in a couple of years and we might be sorry that we don't have a similar issue then

Hagz

I prefer Sexton just cause I prefer Ireland to play a running game rather than watch a tactical kicking game, but both are world class so whatever.

I think others are right in saying that the scrum-half is the more important decision, because although both these guys are class, you wont get the best out of them without a good scrum-half.

phily2002

i think whoever is playing better should start. not much between the 2. I feel happier when Sexton's playing as Rog's defence can be exposed but also in close games I feel Rog has the cooler head to slot those difficult game winning penalties...
As has been said, whoever plays shouldn't have to recieve the ball from TOL!

Teferi

Riskymove wrote: »

he never shirked tackles...he just isn't a very effective tackler

There is a video out there, probably on youtube entitled "ROG's top tackles" and it's a couple of minutes of shots of him getting utterly steam rolled. It's hilarious.

Delighted we have two world class OH that both have different strengths and weaknesses. The competition for a place has made ROG even better than he was after a few years of no competition and it works well for both of them.

Sulkin

I'm a Munster woman so that's where my heart lies but to be fair Sexton is a top class player-ROG has good consistency but Sexton brings a new dynamic

But as I said I'm a Munster woman ...but don't want to say my preference

Diabhal Beag

It's tough to say. On the big occasions O'Gara seems better IMO and he doesn't have the drastic drops in confidence that Sexton sometimes suffers from.

If I was to pick I'd have O'Gara for the Australia-level matches and Sexton for the USA-level matches in the pool.

Gracelessly Tom

Sulkin wrote: »

I'm a Munster woman so that's where my heart lies but to be fair Sexton is a top class player-ROG has good consistency but Sexton brings a new dynamic

But as I said I'm a Munster woman ...but don't want to say my preference

You're a "Wallace at 10" woman. Knew it.

molloyjh

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

It's tough to say. On the big occasions O'Gara seems better IMO and he doesn't have the drastic drops in confidence that Sexton sometimes suffers from.

If I was to pick I'd have O'Gara for the Australia-level matches and Sexton for the USA-level matches in the pool.

I really have to wonder though what the confidence thing is all about. He came into a serious pressure environment in 09 in Croke Park and was as cool as you like. And you won't see many drop goals better than that one in the 09 final. His mental strength was again to the fore in this years HC. I just think that constantly being lumped in with the wrong SH and being the one who suffers for it by being dropped, plus the abuse the guy was getting on the likes of the Guinness page on Facebook, all took their toll. Which you can understand I suppose. Kidney has shown ridiculous levels of faith in the likes of TOL but relatively little in Sexton. Maybe if those things changed Sexton would really shine? His performance against England would certainly suggest that this is the case.

totallegend

For me, it comes down to this; the sort of game plan ROG is best suited to is pinging it into the corner, getting field position and grinding out a win.

While that may be suited to the Six Nations, we will never achieve anything at World Cup level playing that style against the likes of the Southern Hemisphere teams who have the ability to soak up the pressure then spring into attack and cut us to pieces.

For us to have any hope of beating Australia, we have to go out and play rugby; we have possibly the best ball-carrying back row in the tournament and we have serious quality in the backs, we have to use them.

It has to be Sexton.

His goal-kicking is every bit as good as O'Gara's by the way, plus he has a longer range.

bamboozle

totallegend wrote: »

For me, it comes down to this; the sort of game plan ROG is best suited to is pinging it into the corner, getting field position and grinding out a win.

While that may be suited to the Six Nations, we will never achieve anything at World Cup level playing that style against the likes of the Southern Hemisphere teams who have the ability to soak up the pressure then spring into attack and cut us to pieces.

For us to have any hope of beating Australia, we have to go out and play rugby; we have possibly the best ball-carrying back row in the tournament and we have serious quality in the backs, we have to use them.

It has to be Sexton.

His goal-kicking is every bit as good as O'Gara's by the way, plus he has a longer range.

i pretty much wrote we have to do the opposite to beat Oz, pick ROG and play it tight into the corners and frustrate the life out of oz!

fitz

bamboozle wrote: »

i pretty much wrote we have to do the opposite to beat Oz, pick ROG and play it tight into the corners and frustrate the life out of oz!

That's going to be the gameplan from 63 minutes on...

PhatPiggins

Sulkin wrote: »

I'm a Munster woman so that's where my heart lies but to be fair Sexton is a top class player-ROG has good consistency but Sexton brings a new dynamic

But as I said I'm a Munster woman ...but don't want to say my preference

If its beer guts, bad jokes and broken dreams of rugby stardom, lady , you're in the right place.

Podge_irl

prospect wrote: »

I think it is largely irrelevant which is better.

They are both world class.

They really aren't. I wouldn't consider either of them world class.

LightningBolt

fitz wrote: »

As I pointed out elsewhere, the more important selection is at scrumhalf.
Sexton provides more of an attacking threat with ball in hand than ROG, who provides more in terms of tactical kicking.
If we persist with playing the slow scrum-half with the guy who can work the backline-voodoo when he's given quick ball, and save the fast scrum half to play with the tactical mastermind who doesn't need the same time and space to work his positional-voodoo, we're never going to really see the best from Sexton, so this debate is a waste of time.

He will, however, continue to be criticised for having a "bad game" and for not creating anything when he's not getting the quick ball he needs to do so. The reaction to the Scotland game is a prime example. He was behind a misfiring pack, with O'Leary slowing things down further, how can you expect him to create opportunities in those circumstances. ROG would have done no better.

I think we're blessed to have both, but I think the real debate is to do with the half-back pairings as a unit, and the effect that has on our game, not the individual outhalves.

This.

GerM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

If its beer guts, bad jokes and broken dreams of rugby stardom, lady , you're in the right place.

I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody, instead of just a Leinster fan, which is what I am, lets face it.

*necks pint*

mikedragon32

We're blessed to be in an era where we have two double HEC champions slugging it out for the 10 shirt.

My heart says Sexton to start every time, but my head says that this is the RWC we're talking about and if we have any ambitions at all we need to realise that his game won't be ideal for every match, likewise for ROG.

When Humphries was getting towards the end of his career, ROG was subjected to the trials and tribulations of having the "experienced old hand" come in to close out games or having a Humpries game plan foisted upon him if coming off the bench and now Kidney is doing it to Sexton. It does a young player no good for his confidence. I don't really care who starts once Kidney realises that with the change of 10 must come a change in shape.

Funny nobody has mentioned Wallace...

Gracelessly Tom

Podge_irl wrote: »

They really aren't. I wouldn't consider either of them world class.

Name 5 better 10's than Jonno or Rog? If you're in the top 5 in the world you're world class in most peoples books I would have thought.

Podge_irl

I suppose it depends on your definition of world class. I certainly wouldn't consider top 5 to be world class, more like top one or two. And it depends again on their skill set - they may well be the best in the world but if that's just because everyone is reasonably poor then I think it precludes them from being described as world class.

Both players have too many flaws in their game for me to consider either as world class. It's a line that's trotted out a lot when talking about them, but I think we over-rate them somewhat.

Gracelessly Tom

Podge_irl wrote: »

I suppose it depends on your definition of world class. I certainly wouldn't consider top 5 to be world class, more like top one or two. And it depends again on their skill set - they may well be the best in the world but if that's just because everyone is reasonably poor then I think it precludes them from being described as world class.

Both players have too many flaws in their game for me to consider either as world class. It's a line that's trotted out a lot when talking about them, but I think we over-rate them somewhat.

Personally I disagree with you, I think both can be classed as world class. Carter is the obvious front runner but behind him I'd have our two up there with pretty much anyone else.

ionadnapokot

Two excellant players. Quite similar but Sexton offers the better running game. O'Gara better at knowing when to play for the corners.

Sexton v US
Sexton v Aus
RO'G v Russ
RO'G v Ita
RO'G v Wal/Samoa
Sexton v Eng/Fra
Sexton v NZ
World Champs!

CIARAN_BOYLE

2 good OHs glad we have them both.

One thing about Sexton is that he relies on his tricks a bit too much. His wrap arounds work well when he has two from D'arcy/BOD/McFadden/EOM in the center. If he has Wallace at 12 his wrap around doesn't work out well and he only tried it once against Scotland. Another trick that he uses a lot for Leinster that impresses the hell out of me is his restart with Shaggy. Unfortunately he hasn't managed to duplicate it with Bowe or Trimble for Ireland.

ionadnapokot

Podge_irl wrote: »

I suppose it depends on your definition of world class. I certainly wouldn't consider top 5 to be world class, more like top one or two. And it depends again on their skill set - they may well be the best in the world but if that's just because everyone is reasonably poor then I think it precludes them from being described as world class.

Both players have too many flaws in their game for me to consider either as world class. It's a line that's trotted out a lot when talking about them, but I think we over-rate them somewhat.

"Good player. Not a Great player" - John Giles:D

CatFromHue

The top teams outhalves are:

Nz: Dan Carter
Oz: Cooper and Barnes
Sa: Morne Steyn and Butch James
Eng: Wilkinson and Flood
Wal: Hook, Priestland, Jones, and your man from the ospreys
Scot: Parks and Jackson
Fra: Trinh - Duc and Skrela
Arg: Contepomi
Ire: ROG and Sexton

Skrela, Parks, Jackson, Steyn, James, Hook, Jones, your man form the ospreys, and Priestland are not as good as either ROG or Sexton.

Trinh-Duc, Contepomi, Cooper, Barnes, Wilkinson, and Flood would be in and around ROG and Sexton.

Dan Carter is perfect.