Silicon oil recommendations

damagegt

Could anyone recommended me a quality silicon spray oil ?

Evade

This one:

damagegt

Evade wrote: »

This one:

Your not suppose to use 3 in one as it has a high content of a petroleum based compound that destroys silicon .
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055824192&page=200

Razleavy

Have been using this for a few months and not seen any damage to rubber.

http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_219033_langId_-1_categoryId_212531#dtab

NakedDex

<brain explodes>

Seriously, are we really having the "3-in-1 Silicone makez gunz go breaky" thing again? Jesus wept...

Newsflash: it doesn't. Use away.

Evade

It definitely safe to use. I've been using it for over two years and have never had an issue like that, even applying it directly to the rubber (including softer Guarder clear and Mad-Bull blue ones) to ease it in to the chamber.

damagegt

NakedDex wrote: »

<brain explodes>

Seriously, are we really having the "3-in-1 Silicone makez gunz go breaky" thing again? Jesus wept...

Newsflash: it doesn't. Use away.

No,Obviously I was miss informed no need to be a dick about it.

damagegt

Evade wrote: »

It definitely safe to use. I've been using it for over two years and have never had an issue like that, even applying it directly to the rubber (including softer Guarder clear and Mad-Bull blue ones) to ease it in to the chamber.

Cheers bud

NakedDex

damagegt wrote: »

No,Obviously I was miss informed no need to be a dick about it.

I didn't mean it in that sense, it just baffles me how widely spread this rumour has become. It's incredible, in the literal sense. I ran fairly extensive tests on this myth a few months back using lubricants/penetrant far more aggressive than even WD40 to point out that this supposed erosion of rubber is completely false.

I'll run them again. This time I'll specifically use WD40, this particular 3-in-1 Silicone and something properly aggressive like 70% HCl or 45% H2SO4.

damagegt

Then if you found no affects could it not be down to a manufacturing flaw in any give rubber ? I have received 4 guarder clears before and 3 had manufacturing flaws ie bubbles and misshapes which I presume is from the moulding process .Give this, is it not possible that the products that have risen to the results that people are seen are in fact one offs?

NakedDex

Manufacturing defects are one thing, but rubber vs lubricant have completely predictable effects. If it didn't, lubricating seals wouldn't be an option. It wouldn't or couldn't account for the effects people describe.
Cleaning a seal in raw ethanol, for example, won't "destroy" it, but it will dehydrate it and make it brittle. Rehydrating it by leaving it in something like clutch fluid for a few hours will return it to normal and leave it ready for use, but using it while dehydrated will render it more susceptible to friction wear. This is where seals fail, and it's most commonly (in airsoft) blamed on the brand of lubricant rather than on the truth; improper maintenance.

NakedDex

Okay, I'm going to attempt to dispell the rumours once and for all, because these things really bug the hell out of me.

The last time I ran this test, I used a penetrant and a lubricant similar to those you could get commercially (WD40 and LPS2 are essentially the same thing from different brands), but they were industrial grade so they weren't the brands most of you would know.

So, in the picture below you will see six purified, tamper proof, chemical sample bottles containing two standard o-ring seals in each, and whatever chemical/fluid is marked on the bottle itself, ranging from the 3-in-1 Silicone oil in question, to the frankly ridiculous stuff like jet fuel. This is specifically just to show how chemicals of different aggressions will act upon these o-rings.
I was going to include some highly corrosive chemicals, but frankly it would be pointless. Not only would they make little difference to the seal, I'd put money on none of you having regular access to chemicals like hydrochloric, sulphuric or nitric acid anyway, nevermind being silly enough to put it your AEG (and if you did, I wish you good luck in your attempt to survive to see your next birthday).




The names are fairly obvious, but for those who don't know:
IPA = Isopropyl alcohol (or India/Imperial Pale Ale after office hours).
Jet A-1 = This is, as the name implies, a fuel for jet engines. It's essentially a highly refined kerosene, so it's a nice analog for all those petroleum ditillate rumours.
Methylethylketone (MEK) = A highly aggresive ketone commonly used for stripping metals.



I'm leaving these containers closed for one week. After that, I'll open them and display the results.

Any questions?

swiftblade

Where did you get the jet fuel and if you put it in your car, will it fly?

damagegt

Just a suggestion.Would it not be better to use hop up rubbers ?

NakedDex

You question the jet fuel but not the horrendously dangerous chemicals? Odd.

I work with jet aircraft, hence we have rather a lot of it. And no, it won't make your car fly, but it does do wonders for the emissions of a diesel engine car just before an NCT...




And yes, it would arguably be better to use hop rubbers since that's the main item whose integreity is in question, but these are silicone rubber seals (albeit harder than a hop rubber) so they'll have to do as a stand-in since, as willing as I am to take the time out to conduct these tests for others, I'm not willing to reach into my back pocket and splash out a hundred quid on sacrificial hop rubbers for it.
The results, incidentally, would be approximately the same, though the softer rubber of the hop would engorge in the silicone lubricant as the softer rubber is more hygroscopic than the harder, denser rubber used in the seals. This would render it ineffectual as a hop unit as the size will have changed, but it would be by no means "eaten" or "destroyed".

Remember that old line "There's no such thing as a too much lubrication"? Well, that's massively wrong on a lot of fronts. Hop units are one of them.

swiftblade

Im sure Dex would use hop up rubbers if he had the money to spare.* Would make it a rather expensive test.





*I am not implying Dex is poor

damagegt

Surely we could pass the hat and get a few hop up rubbers together for him

NakedDex

swiftblade wrote: »

Im sure Dex would use hop up rubbers if he had the money to spare.* Would make it a rather expensive test.





*I am not implying Dex is poor

I could spare the money, but I have expensive tastes in beer and €100 worth of hop rubbers could buy me two bottles of Tactical Nuclear Penguin, or four bottles of Abstrakt. Beer > hop rubber, ergo no silly hop purchases.
It'd also be a criminal waste of hop rubbers. Think of all the people out there who are still using stock hop rubbers... Those poor people...

Just a Plinker

damagegt wrote: »

Could anyone recommended me a quality silicon spray oil ?

You need this one mate Ive used it fora long time it's first class ,
http://www.seairsoft.net/product_details.php?id=838&sub=138&subcat=Silicon

NakedDex

Except the difference between it and, say, the 3-in-1 Silicone recommended already is... about €5 more expensive. Nothing to do with the shop, it's the "manufacturer". ASG do the same. Tiny bottles for huge money. Nothing special or different apart from the label and extra money.


SPEAKING OF WHICH...

Time to unlock the sample bottles.




And here's the results <drum roll please>




SHOCK HORROR! THE SILICONE DIDN'T EAT ANYTHING??? NOR DID THE WD40!!!

Yeah, so basically it took an incredibly aggressive ketone to make any difference to the seal. The seal is engorged, and is considerably more pliable than before.
The Jet A-1 results also debunks the myth of sprays containing petroleum distillates somehow chewing the living hell out of your seals.
The silicone immersed sample is completely unchanged from the measurements before it went in. The picture does show the smaller seal to be a little engorged, but that's just bad light I think. The micrometer readings were the same. And yes, the micrometer was calibrated.

So can we put the whole "this oil will eat your gun" shtick to bed now? It got old a long time ago.
Here's the truth behind the myth. Many oils are mistakenly believed to be lubricants by the general populace. The massive labels of "penetrant", "moisture displacement" and "hygrophobic" clearly not being enough of a warning since nobody bothers their arse to read the directions, thinking they know better. This results in people using WD40 et al as a lubricant, which it clearly is not. The WD40 will work for a short amount of time - IE while it's still wet - but once it has run clear of the seal, taking with it any and all moisture, oil, grease and any other trace of something that could even by temporarily classed as a lubricant, you end up with a dry seal, often on a moving part.
This dry seal then ends up being worn down by friction, now that there's nothing aiding the movement, resulting in ingress of foreign particulates, broken seals and loss of efficiency/operation due to air leakages.
Silicone oil doesn't dry, nor does it react adversely with silicone rubber (a base periodic element not reacting with another sample of the same element? MADNESS!), and this is why silicone oil - and molybdenum grease - is recommended. What brand you get is up to you. Claims of "Pure Silicone" are bull, because pure silicon is solid, so there'll always be other "ingredients" in the oil. The fact that it's marketed specifically for use on rubber materials should be indication number bloody one that it's safe. Different brands use minorly different mixes, but they're all essentially the same. In fact, most brands (especially airsoft brands) source it all in the same place and just package it differently.

Here's the other part of the myth that a certain popular tv show might render the finding "Plausible" on. Hop rubbers that get saturated in silicone will expand. That is true. Why? Because hop rubbers are a soft silicon rubber that is more porous than other rubbers by nature. This makes it act like a sponge around silicone oil, so it expands when saturated.
Now, here's where the myth falls flat. The rubber is not "destroyed" as people seem so quick to claim. It's engorged. Nothing more. Sure, it's not fit for use anymore as the tolerances are all over the place and the hardness characteristics will have changed completely, but it's not corroded, eaten, melting or any other synonym for a catastrophic failure which you may enjoy using.
Guess what though? You weren't supposed to oil the hop rubber anyway. Airsoft maintenance 101: keep the lubricant away from the hop. It doesn't work if it's wet, and it's certainly not going to work if it's saturated. This is regardless of what oil you use.

Myth debunking number three: "Never use WD40 on any airsoft part". This is only true with the addition of the caveat "without cleaning it off and replacing the grease/oil afterwards". I've used WD40 on plenty of gearboxes. It's great for stripping away dirt. I re-grease and re-oil the relevant parts afterwards and the box is perfect. It does, however, still smell of that sweet, sweet WD40. Don't use the smell as an indication of warranty voiding.




So, after all that, hopefully this clears a few things up. The samples ended up in their jars for a little longer than expected, at ten days instead of seven, because I was a tad busy these last few days. Short of one of those bottles containing an organophosphate, I couldn't see a few days making any difference anyway.

damagegt

Thanks dex for taking the time out to do all this.Its a great help.

NakedDex

I would love to know why I wrote H20 instead of H2O on that comparison paper...

Nerdfail

NakedDex

I knew I should have brought a camera, but it's hardly ground a breaking update:

The sample immersed in the ketone that engorged so much and became very soft/pliable has, this morning, returned to regular size and hardness.
All samples were left in open air, in the dark, for the weekend and show no traces of exposure to anything.

Inari

Very interesting read. Thank you for spending the time posting - clear visual results are much harder to dispute. But while we're on the subject:

You can get a lot of cheaper silicone oil - the 3in1, Lidl's finest, and as Dex has pointed out, it won't damage your seals. However, seals are not the only thing to watch out for. The viscosity of the oil is also worth considering.

I have at home, and use very regularly, the Lidl W5 silicone oil - it's great, and does the job...but a very specific job. The oil is very thick, too thick for finer moving parts, but great for triggers, hammers etc. It is USELESS for blow-back units and for magazine valves (the release/striker valve). The thick oil causes the part to stick, which in the case of the latter will result in you dumping gas. In the former, you'll just be reducing performance.

In another thread I brought this up and Dex was able to recommend a different brand that had the same viscosity as Ultair/ASG/APS3 etc. By all means seek out and use cheaper alternatives...but just make sure that they're the right alternatives.

NakedDex

The 3-in-1 Silicons used here was just representative. Realistically, you could use any silicone oil in this test and get the same result. So yes, Lidl's finest will do just as well

Viscosity is a concern for, as you say, the application. From ultra viscous oil to heavy grease, what you choose should be specific to the application. I use molybdenum grease for the gears and piston slide and a mid-viscosity oil for the finer areas.
Aerosol oils are generally a low viscosity, and good for leaving a wet film of lubrication behind, but require regular cleaning and reapplication as wet-film lubing tends to attract dirt quicker than others.