Iarnród Éireann apologises to same-sex couple over boarding refusal

paulm17781

Is this a new best for IE staff? I wonder if they'll face any reprocussions at all... :rolleyes:

breakingnews.ie wrote:

Iarnród Éireann has apologised to a same-sex couple after a member of its staff refused to let them board a train at Heuston Station.

The staff member questioned the validity of their Department of Social Protection-issued travel pass and refused to allow them board a train from Dublin to Cork on Sunday.

Cork man Noel Dolan is on disability allowance and qualifies for a travel pass which also covers his partner Juan Carlos Camacho Suarez, whom he married in Spain, where gay marriage is legal.

However, when they tried to board the 6pm train to Cork on Sunday having attended a demonstration for civil marriage equality, Mr Dolan said an official ordered them to stand aside and told them Iarnród Éireann did not recognise same-sex marriages.

Mr Dolan claims a second official said they would not be prevented from travelling but that same-sex couples were not allowed to use a travel pass.

An Iarnród Éireann spokesperson said the couple should not have been prevented from boarding the train, adding that staff in Heuston Station were not aware of changes to the provisions of the free travel scheme arising from the Civil Partnership Act of 2010.

Jehuty42

They'll be retrained and an apology was issued. What more do you want?

mickydoomsux

That's very odd. We only got an e-mail a while ago in relation to tightening up protocol for free travel that said the exact opposite of the story.

It was issued on behalf of the Dept of Social Protection and it's they who said that same sex couples weren't entitled

wandatowell

jesus, staff in this company just make foul up after foul up

mickydoomsux

wandatowell wrote: »

jesus, staff in this company just make foul up after foul up

Hard to blame the staff when they weren't aware of the change and as i pointed out, we got an e-mail a short while ago saying the exact opposite applied as far as the DSP were concerned.

It's the usual thing of the people on the ground getting the blame for the people doing busy-work in the offices making a balls-up.

efb

mickydoomsux wrote: »

That's very odd. We only got an e-mail a while ago in relation to tightening up protocol for free travel that said the exact opposite of the story.

It was issued on behalf of the Dept of Social Protection and it's they who said that same sex couples weren't entitled

How long ago? The law's only been in since March.

mickydoomsux

efb wrote: »

How long ago? The law's only been in since March.

May have been around then if not a little before.

I expect a hasty composed e-mail in my work inbox the next time i check it

L1011

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Hard to blame the staff when they weren't aware of the change and as i pointed out, we got an e-mail a short while ago saying the exact opposite applied as far as the DSP were concerned.

It's the usual thing of the people on the ground getting the blame for the people doing busy-work in the offices making a balls-up.

The DSW changing the rules was in approx 2007 IIRC. It was when Coughlan was in charge. Before that the partner pass was valid for unmarried or married, same or opposite sex.

efb

MYOB wrote: »

The DSW changing the rules was in approx 2007 IIRC. It was when Coughlan was in charge. Before that the partner pass was valid for unmarried or married, same or opposite sex.

Well expect the updated email in 2015 so!

mickydoomsux

efb wrote: »

Well expect the updated email in 2015 so!

At the soonest. Another PR gaffe that someone really should have been on top of.

Of course it's the frontline staff who are dealing with the public who are the last to hear about things relating to dealing with the public.

NuMarvel

efb wrote: »

How long ago? The law's only been in since March.

One small correction (sorry, I'm a nit picker!). The commencement order for the Civil Partnership Act was signed on 23rd December 2010, and the Act came into operation on 1st January 2011. Most couples applying for civil partnership have to give 3 months notification, but because there were allowances for exemptions, it's possible that some couples could have been "partnered" from January 2011, including couples who were married abroad.


Today's Irish Times article has a bit more information about this incident, including this statement from IE:

When contacted by this newspaper, Iarnród Éireann spokesman Barry Kenny said it wished to “sincerely apologise” to Mr Dolan and his partner. In a letter sent to the couple last night, Mr Kenny said they should not have been prevented from boarding train. “We would stress that Iarnród Éireann has no policy in relation to free travel for those in same-sex or any other types of marriage. Our only role is to ensure that the provisions of the free travel scheme as set out by the Department of Social Protection are enforced,” Mr Kenny said.

He said that last December the Department of Social Protection wrote to inform public transport companies of changes to the provisions of the free travel scheme arising from the Civil Partnership Act.

“These changes included the provision that the DSP [Department of Social Protection] would recognise under the free travel scheme people of the same sex party to civil partnership registration or parties to a legal relationship.

“Regrettably, our colleagues in Heuston had not been made aware of this change, and believed that they were correctly applying the provisions of the DSP free travel scheme,

Mr Kenny said Iarnród Éireann was committed to “issuing to all relevant staff around the network this week a notice to ensure that this matter is explicitly clarified, and to ensure that such an incident cannot recur”.

Personally, I think that should be the end of the matter, as long as IE can verify that all staff are now familiar with the details of the current free travel scheme*. It doesn't seem that the staff were hostile or prejudiced, they were just genuinely misinformed. It's just the ultimate of ironies that the couple encountered the difficulty when travelling home from a marriage equality march!

*Mickeydoom, be prepared for a pop quiz at any time!

L1011

NuMarvel wrote: »

One small correction (sorry, I'm a nit picker!). The commencement order for the Civil Partnership Act was signed on 23rd December 2010, and the Act came into operation on 1st January 2011. Most couples applying for civil partnership have to give 3 months notification, but because there were allowances for exemptions, it's possible that some couples could have been "partnered" from January 2011, including couples who were married abroad.!

The commencement date for foreign partnerships being recognised was something in mid January IIRC. Was done under a separate commencement SI.

NuMarvel

MYOB wrote: »

The commencement date for foreign partnerships being recognised was something in mid January IIRC. Was done under a separate commencement SI.

January 21st I think, but I'm wasn't sure, which is why I fudged it and said January instead of a specific date .

Drimnagh Road

What next?

Fresh from their harsh treatment of students who were travelling on the wrong tickets thanks to their own staff been incompetent - and the rake of bad publicity that they got in the process - now they are going around offending same sex couples.

Actually, as this latest incident happened on the Dublin-Cork line also, I wonder was it the same jobsworth from IE's secret revenue hit squad that got the students.

Is there anything their revenue protection department can do correct?

NuMarvel

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

What next?

Fresh from their harsh treatment of students who were travelling on the wrong tickets thanks to their own staff been incompetent - and the rake of bad publicity that they got in the process - now they are going around offending same sex couples.

Actually, as this latest incident happened on the Dublin-Cork line also, I wonder was it the same employee from IE's harsh secret revenue hit squad that got the students.

Is there anything their revenue protection department can do correct?

As you'll have read in my earlier post, this was a case of staff in Heuston being uninformed of the change in policy. You'll also see that it was the ticket checker at the gate that stopped them, not the onboard revenue protection unit.

I'd be the first one to drag them over the coals if I thought that they were discriminating against same sex couples. But this seems to be a genuine, though, unfortunate mistake. No Gestapo here I'm afraid.

AlekSmart

This is a most interesting thread and one which is far from as clear-cut as the Executioner`s may wish.

Firstly,here's the DSP's current take on the availibility of Spouse/Partner Free Travel Entitlement.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/FreeTravel/Pages/default.aspx

The relevant wording ......

If you qualify for a Free Travel Pass and you are married or co-habiting (that is living with a man or woman as husband and wife), you may get a Free Travel Pass that allows your spouse or partner to join you for free when travelling.

The problems arising from this are to an extent, compounded by this DSP explanatory guide...
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Pages/CivilPartnershipFAQS.aspx

Q10. Will my civil partner be able to get free travel when I am aged over 66 years ?

A. A civil partner over age 66 will be able to get a Free Travel Pass which will automatically allow their civil partner to travel free with them. This will not be automatic for cohabitants who will have to submit an additional application.

Q14. What type of relationships does the social welfare code recognise ?

A. From 1 January 2011, the social welfare code will recognise three types of relationships:

a) Married couples – the term 'spouse' will only refer to each person of a married couple,

b) A new definition of 'civil partner' will be introduced. A 'civil partner' will be defined as "each person of a couple who are civil partners within the meaning of section 3 of the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010". The term 'civil partner' will only apply to a person who has registered their civil partnership; and

c) The term 'cohabitants' will refer to couples who are living together (both the same or opposite sex). The term 'cohabitant' will be defined in the social welfare code in accordance with Section 172 (1) of the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act, 2010, which states that "... a cohabitant is one of two adults (whether of the same or the opposite sex) who live together as a couple in an intimate and committed relationship and who are not related to each other within the prohibited degrees of relationship or married to each other or civil partners of each other".

Where the issue becomes very hazy indeed relates back to a case taken by a Gay Dublin Based gentleman who successfully argued that a same-sex partner should be within the scope of the DSW Free Travel Scheme.

The then Minister,Mary Coughlan partially referenced the issue here...

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0573/D.0573.200310220036.html

Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mary Coughlan): I propose to take Questions Nos. 92, 95, 100, 106 and 278 together.

The free travel scheme is available to all people living in the State aged 66 years or over. It is also available to carers and to people with disabilities who are in receipt of certain social welfare payments. It applies to travel within the State and cross-Border journeys between here and Northern Ireland.

Under the free travel scheme a person aged 66 or over who is married or co-habiting is entitled to a free travel pass which allows a spouse or partner to accompany him or her free of charge when travelling on public transport services. The Department has now amended its free travel scheme guidelines to extend the same benefits to same-sex cohabiting couples as previously applied to opposite-sex cohabiting couples. This amendment was introduced to comply with the Equal Status Act 2000. The Department is now examining other non-statutory schemes to ensure that they are fully in compliance with the Equal Status Act 2000.

The free travel scheme, in conjunction with the Northern Ireland concessionary travel scheme, provides free travel on cross-Border routes for pass holders of both jurisdictions. This scheme applies to cross-Border journeys and not to travel exclusively within either jurisdiction.

Implementation of an all-Ireland free travel scheme for pensioners resident in all parts of this island will require detailed discussions and agreements with the relevant authorities and transport providers on both sides of the Border. Preparatory work on this proposal will be commencing shortly.

I have been unable to locate the particular Equality Officer's judgement but I can remember the Dublin Bus Staff Notice drawing attention to the DSW Memo which advised the Company of the alteration.

The Dublin Bus Staff memo,in addition to the factual elements also advised staff to be discreete in dealing with any issues arising from the new situation.

To the best of my memory this situation pertained c.2002/2003,however shortly after this the DSW issued a new circular in which it advised (from memory) that the Minister had revised the guidelines and issued a new Statutory Instrument which re-established the original spousal relationship qualifier,ie: a Spouse could only be of the Opposite Sex.

This particular DSW circular,which to my recall,was NOT covered by a company Staff Memo,then went on to advise that the re-established guidelines did NOT however apply to the originally succesful appellant,whose Name,Address and Free Pass details were included on the circular.

This means that for a substantial period of time,indeed it now appears,up until 2010,there was only a single person in the Irish Republic who had a legal entitlement to have his same-sex partner accompany him as a spouse/partner on qualifying Public Transport.

Again,from memory I believe the original succcessful appelant was from the Stoneybatter/Blackhorse area of Dublin 7.

The entire issue was handled in avery low-key manner indeed and the prevailing concern appeared to focus more on preventing unpleasant scenes or confrontation on Bus services.

I would underline here that I have NO knowledge of how the other C.I.E company's handled the issue and what internal communications,if any,resulted.

From what I can make of the entire crazed scenario there now appears scope for the various Transport Undertakings to recruit Duty Solicitors or Peace Commissioners to staff Ticket Desks and perhaps drive buses in order to adjudicate upon the "Civil Partner" vs "Co-Habitant" debate which will doubtless become more commonplace as the mist lifts from this landscape.

What an absolute mess.

AFAIAA the last figure for DSP Free Travel passes in circulation was 640,000,this did not include spousal or companion entitlement to which we can now add "Civil Partner".

I would estimate these entitled persons would bring the total number of persons entitled to Free Travel to c.750,000.

efb

There isn't 110,000 civil partnerships in
Ireland. I assumed it would only apply to civil partners and not co-habitants, as it does with heterosexual couples (married v co-habiting)

If we had full gay marriage this confusion wouldn't arise!

AlekSmart

Efb:There isn't 110,000 civil partnerships in
Ireland. I assumed it would only apply to civil partners and not co-habitants, as it does with heterosexual couples (married v co-habiting)

Apologies for the context.

I was'nt differentiating between any category of accompanying person...

I'm taking an educated guess that with 640,000 Pass Holders,the qualifying accompanying persons of all categories would amount to 110,000.

It could be more,but I would suggest it's not much less even allowing for single people,widowed/widowers etc.

It's not the gender or sexual orientation issue which is important for me,but the sheer numbers of individuals who are not required to pay for Public Transport at all.

However to deal with this particular thread topic,I can confirm that as of 1530 this afternoon there was NO Specific Dublin Bus Memo or Staff Notice alerting Drivers in my location to yet another particular yawning chasm opening up in front of them.

NuMarvel

AlekSmart wrote: »

Firstly,here's the DSP's current take on the availibility of Spouse/Partner Free Travel Entitlement.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/FreeTravel/Pages/default.aspx

The text on that page hasn't been updated since the 1st December 2010, which is before the relevant Act came into operation. If you click on the link in Free Travel or Free Travel Companion Pass, you'll get to this page - http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/FreeTravel/Pages/FreeTravel.aspx, which is up to date. This is the relevant section:

Spouses, civil partners, cohabitant's and companions
If you have a free travel pass and you are married, in a civil partnership or cohabiting, you are entitled to a Free Travel Pass which allows your partner to accompany you free of charge when travelling. (This does not apply to person's under age 66 who are in receipt of Carer's Allowance or who are nominated carers for people getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from the Department of Social Protection).

AlekSmart

NuMarvel wrote: »

The text on that page hasn't been updated since the 1st December 2010, which is before the relevant Act came into operation. If you click on the link in Free Travel or Free Travel Companion Pass, you'll get to this page - http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/FreeTravel/Pages/FreeTravel.aspx, which is up to date. This is the relevant section:

Thanks NuMarvel,I think I also referenced that a little further in.

However it illustrates just how tardy the entire DSP Free Travel Scheme oversight mechanism actually is.

In the Heuston Station issue it is entirely possible that the Ticket Checkers office had outdated DSP regulatory requirements on prominent display,whilst the DSP's most recent and probably muted communication lay un-noticed ticking away like a little timebomb.

Nobody's in charge,nobody's responsible until some customer facing front-liner performing his/her job in what he/she believed to be the correct manner is dropped right in it !!!

Jehuty42

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

their own staff been incompetent

I've seen you post this same mistake here, on IRN, and on your own site. The word in that context is "being", not "been".

foggy_lad

It is not so long ago that staff in Cork told a disabled man he would have his pass confiscated and he would be left stranded in Cork unless he provided photo id he was not obliged to provide, just another awful failure by staff of this awful company. there is no quality in their dealings with the public, it is all well and good seeing several people rushing with ramps and wheelchair to assist some old dear getting off the train in Heuston but this appears to be purely for show, when it really matters they prove themselves incapable of operating a modern railway network, all frill and no knickers as my granny used to say!

Carawaystick

If a customer had inadvertently breached some obscure bye-law or regulation IE'd be demanding a hundred plus euros. So what's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander: a hundred quid and the price of the train ticket from some IE employees pocket

Jehuty42

.

mickydoomsux

Carawaystick wrote: »

If a customer had inadvertently breached some obscure bye-law or regulation IE'd be demanding a hundred plus euros. So what's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander: a hundred quid and the price of the train ticket from some IE employees pocket

Neither of these guys were fined.

What's your point?

teol

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Neither of these guys were fined.

What's your point?

They missed their train. I'd expect them to get compensated.

mickydoomsux

teol wrote: »

They missed their train. I'd expect them to get compensated.

That still doesn't answer my question. The previous poster brought up fines which have nothing to do with this story.

-Chris-

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is not so long ago that staff in Cork told a disabled man he would have his pass confiscated and he would be left stranded in Cork unless he provided photo id he was not obliged to provide, just another awful failure by staff of this awful company. there is no quality in their dealings with the public, it is all well and good seeing several people rushing with ramps and wheelchair to assist some old dear getting off the train in Heuston but this appears to be purely for show, when it really matters they prove themselves incapable of operating a modern railway network, all frill and no knickers as my granny used to say!

Can we restrict this discussion to the topic at hand please (and yes, I see how they're related, I'm just trying to keep the trains of thought - that's a pun, see what I did there?:) - separate)?

NuMarvel

-Chris- wrote: »

Can we restrict this discussion to the topic at hand please (and yes, I see how they're related, I'm just trying to keep the trains of thought - that's a pun, see what I did there?:) - separate)?

If that sort of thing isn't against the forum charter, then it should be!

Cookie_Monster

I blame the dept of SP, the passes system is ridiculous, archaic and nowhere near properly regulated leading to this kind of nonsense. A simple laminated and security hologram photo ID pass which exact details for person and accompaniment allowances and a requirement to show it on all occasions to travel...

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I blame the dept of SP, the passes system is ridiculous, archaic and nowhere near properly regulated leading to this kind of nonsense. A simple laminated and security hologram photo ID pass which exact details for person and accompaniment allowances and a requirement to show it on all occasions to travel...

A big +ONE to that Cookie_M

My take on it is that we now have another new and as yet unquantified group of persons qualifying for FREE Public Transport.

Whilst I did read the DSP's blurb and it's comprehensive accounts of "New" definitions of Free Pass recipient,I saw no mention of an increase in the Budget to cover these extra bodies.

As the Irish Rail controversy accquires media legs I can safely say that Public Transport Staff will be on the recieving end of a renewed onslaught of "Bud's" momentarily flashing a piece of coloured cardboard marked PASS HOLDER ONLY on the "STATUS" line.

In this particular case,the easy going,once a year,lump sum arrangement with the CIE companies bred the lackadaisical communication of the new situation to the front-line staff...sure what does it matter etc etc....

How the Free Travel Scheme is being funded is becoming ever more mysterious to me....:)