The fightback (aftermath of the rioting)

Laminations

David Cameron's speech

http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/pms-speech-on-the-fightback-after-the-riots/

notable points

These riots were not about race: the perpetrators and the victims were white, black and Asian.
These riots were not about government cuts: they were directed at high street stores, not Parliament.
And these riots were not about poverty: that insults the millions of people who, whatever the hardship, would never dream of making others suffer like this.
No, this was about behaviour…

In this risk-free ground of moral neutrality there are no bad choices, just different lifestyles.
People aren’t the architects of their own problems, they are victims of circumstance.
‘Live and let live’ becomes ‘do what you please.’
Well actually, what last week has shown is that this moral neutrality, this relativism – it’s not going to cut it any more.

Do we have the determination to confront the slow-motion moral collapse that has taken place in parts of our country these past few generations?
Irresponsibility. Selfishness. Behaving as if your choices have no consequences.
Children without fathers. Schools without discipline. Reward without effort.
Crime without punishment. Rights without responsibilities. Communities without control.
Some of the worst aspects of human nature tolerated, indulged – sometimes even incentivised – by a state and its agencies that in parts have become literally de-moralised

Actually, the whole speech is full of notable points, so rather than quote them all you can read it. Points regarding family, school, respect, community, responsibility, welfare, human rights and national citizen service.

I'm sure his attack on the twisting by some of the original intention of human rights legislation to protect criminals from punishment will offend people. But I agree with him

Let me be clear: in this country we are proud to stand up for human rights, at home and abroad. It is part of the British tradition.
But what is alien to our tradition – and now exerting such a corrosive influence on behaviour and morality…
…is the twisting and misrepresenting of human rights in a way that has undermined personal responsibility.


...


The truth is, the interpretation of human rights legislation has exerted a chilling effect on public sector organisations, leading them to act in ways that fly in the face of common sense, offend our sense of right and wrong, and undermine responsibility

I'm also sure people will baulk at the idea of expecting teenagers to engage in national citizen service too but

Team-work, discipline, duty, decency

some people don't learn these things from their parents

In the highest offices, the plushest boardrooms, the most influential jobs, we need to think about the example we are setting.
Moral decline and bad behaviour is not limited to a few of the poorest parts of our society.
In the banking crisis, with MPs’ expenses, in the phone hacking scandal, we have seen some of the worst cases of greed, irresponsibility and entitlement.
The restoration of responsibility has to cut right across our society.

The other leaders are calling for more investigation into why some people rioted and others didn't.



Nick Clegg's speech
http://www.libdems.org.uk/latest_news_detail.aspx?title=Nick_Clegg%3a_Speech_to_party_members_on_the_riots&pPK=c69dd25e-6ade-4e74-b011-248db8f37401

We need to know who did what, and why they did it. We need to understand. I don’t mean ‘understand’ in the sense of being understanding, or offering even the hint of an excuse. I mean understand what happened, to get as much evidence as we can. Then we can respond, ruthlessly but thoughtfully.

We need to understand and tackle...

Let me be clear. There is no excuse for this behaviour. None. As a liberal, I see violence and disorder of this kind as an attack on liberty, on the freedom for individuals to live and trade in peace in their own communities. I think the best defence against this kind of nihilistic behaviour is to ensure that everyone has a stake in society, and everyone feels a sense of responsibility towards their own community. That, in turn, means giving people the opportunities to get ahead so they feel they have a stake in their own future.


That is why this Government has decided to focus our social policies on social mobility, because having opportunity – real opportunity – gives people the drive, discipline and responsibility to do the right thing.

Although he reiterates that he is not excusing the behaviour, he talks more about how government can improve the social interaction and community spirit of a disillusioned youth




</h3>
And Ed Milliband's speech
http://www.labour.org.uk/the-national-conversation

Labour are calling for a national conversation, and shared responsibility.

And to answer what has happened, we have to state the most inconvenient truth of all: yes, people are responsible for their actions.

But we all bear a share of responsibility for the society we create.

Governments, Labour and Conservative.

Powerful elites in politics, business and the media.

And all of us - me and you as well.

Only by starting with this truth can we get to the honest answe rs our country deserves.

All leaders talk about people taking responsibility for their own actions.

Nodin

Every now and again a set of circumstances will emerge where large groups of young, (mostly but not exclusively) male, folk will do stupid things en masse. Thats about as deep as this goes for the most part.

Laminations

Hmmm, thats a very long and off-putting OP. If interested in the approach Britain may take towards the rioters and possible underlying causes (which no-one can agree upon) just read

Cameron

And then of lesser importance (because they aren't PM)

Clegg
Milliband

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

Every now and again a set of circumstances will emerge where large groups of young, (mostly but not exclusively) male, folk will do stupid things en masse. Thats about as deep as this goes for the most part.

I think this is a more deep rooted problem with UK (and Irish) society, celeb culture and a criminal class that is accepted and even glorified in the media.

People have misinterpreted the behaviourist finding that reward > punishment for behaviour modification. To the extent that if the child misbehaves, give them a toy to shut them up (rather than a punishment). And instead of having the desired effect this of course positively reinforces the bad behaviour. This permeates all strata and age groups in society. Bad behaviour is unwittingly rewarded and incentivised in an attempt to make the person behave better. A parent neglects their child and the consequence is 'well they are not been given enough support'. What does that teach? To get more support you should neglect your child.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

I for one hope this leads to a national service being set up.
9 months military or 18 months civil service before you go to college.

Laminations

@ Permabear.
Agreed. Labours double speak of sharing responsibility but also being responsible for oneself has the effect (again probably unintended) to diminish the responsibility of the rioters who are merely consequences of their environment.

Other posters on other threads have described the removal of benefits as excessive but I think it needs to be done.You have to reward good behaviour and punish bad behaviour. This needs to be done at all levels of society. I also, as you know, believe in a strong but fair welfare system. This should try and help people by giving them access Ro resources to help themselves. It should attempt to equalise opportunities, especially for children, but this should not include the opportunity to commit crime, especially repeatedly. It should incentivise self improvement rather than dependence and stagnation and entitlement and resentment.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jonsnow

"Do we have the determination to confront the slow-motion moral collapse that has taken place in parts of our country these past few generations?
Irresponsibility. Selfishness. Behaving as if your choices have no consequences.
Children without fathers. Schools without discipline. Reward without effort.
Crime without punishment. Rights without responsibilities. Communities without control.
Some of the worst aspects of human nature tolerated, indulged – sometimes even incentivised"


Sounds like hes describing the Bullingdon club

steelcityblues

If I am an honest British taxpayer, who stays out of criminal activities, how do I bare any 'responsibility' for what happened last week?

Love the psychology politicians are using at the moment to say the way the country is a collective problem - not of course mostly down to them.

permabear

Let's take more personal responsibility:

This post had been deleted.

Claiming that people are victims of circumstance isn't going to cut it anymore:

In this risk-free ground of moral neutrality there are no bad choices, just different lifestyles.
People aren’t the architects of their own problems, they are victims of circumstance.

Well actually, what last week has shown is that this moral neutrality, this relativism – it’s not going to cut it any more.

...but not really on both counts, because it's not their fault and they need to be given more "opportunities"

That, in turn, means giving people the opportunities to get ahead so they feel they have a stake in their own future.

Milliband:

There is another path, simply to blame others.
So wrong.

And the approach of blaming others, so simple.

And, I am afraid, so simplistic.

But we all bear a share of responsibility for the society we create.

Very simplistic indeed, mr milliband.

Or as Laminations put it:

Agreed. Labours double speak of sharing responsibility but also being responsible for oneself has the effect (again probably unintended) to diminish the responsibility of the rioters who are merely consequences of their environment.

I agree with PB's and Lamination's posts so far - giving them free money forever just isn't cutting it. Especially if they're found guilty of criminal behaviour. Should be cut then.
All this handwringing about society's responsibility and bankers and elites (it's always those bankers and elites isn't it) is one thing but giving people benefits with no incentives to change anything, continuing to giving them benefits after behaviour like this and asking "what's the problem with this situation?"... seems straight forward enough, no?

permabear wrote:

If the rioters are indeed products of their environment, as Milliband is trying to claim, the party that spent 13 continuous years in power up to last May surely has to accept some responsibility for shaping the environment that produced them.

Of course they do - as much responsibility as they claim everyone else should take :pac:

jonsnow

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/08/10/david_cameron_riot_condemnation_bullingdon_club_irony


British Prime Minister David Cameron has been unequivocal in his condemnation of the riots that have broken out across the London and other parts of the U.K. in recent days, decrying the scenes of destruction as "sickening."

As a student at Oxford in the late 1980s, however, Cameron was part of a members' club (the British equivalent of a fraternity), which ritualistically smashed up local restaurants. Unlike the rioters, however, Cameron's club, The Bullingdon, was exclusive and notoriously elite.

"This is criminality pure and simple and it has to be confronted and defeated," Cameron said on Tuesday, having returned from his vacation in Italy three days after the riots first ignited in the British capital. He added: "If you are old enough to commit these crimes you are old enough to face the punishment" (referring to the fact tha many of those involved are in their early teens).

The prime minister has never applied such strong words to condemn the actions of his former club. The Bullingdon Club -- a members' only dining society in the university preserved for the most privileged of (male only) students -- is known for breaking the plates, glasses and windows of local restaurants and drinking establishments and destroying college property in Oxford. (The U.K. newspaper, The Independent, described it as a club "whose raison d'être has for more than 150 years been to afford tailcoat-clad aristocrats a termly opportunity to behave very badly indeed.”) New recruits are secretly elected and informed of this by having their college bedroom invaded and "trashed".

The Conservative leader's affiliation with the Bullingdon and its elite and riotous reputation has at times haunted his political career. In the 2010 election, in which Cameron's Conservative Party won a majority in Parliament for the first time since 1997, his opponents and the media frequently brought up his Oxford past. A television documentary was devoted to one particular night in 1987 -- when both Cameron and the current London mayor, Boris Johnson, were Bullingdon members – during which club members were arrested for causing havoc in Oxford and broke a restaurant window. Cameron claimed he went to bed early on the night in question, but the Financial Times reported in 2010 that he was "most definitely" at the party. An old Bullingdon friend told the paper that Cameron's determination not be caught was "extraordinary."

Today's rioters and the Bullingdon club are diametrically opposed in terms of socio-economic background and racial diversity. Cameron's college cadre were all upper-class and white; the rioters in London are from many different racial backgrounds and are almost exclusively from council estates, the British equivalent of project housing. Unlike the rioters, the Bullingdon club's modus operandi involves leaving large sums of cash or checks behind, to cover damages. It is not traditional, however, that they pick up brooms or face serious recriminations.

Oh, I was like that as a lad;

A shocking young scamp of a rover.

I behaved like a regular cad,

But that sort of thing is all over.

I'm now a respectable chap,

And shine with a virtue resplendent

And therefore I haven't a rap

Of sympathy for the defendant.

--W.S. Gilbert

Excuse me if I don,t take lectures from thugs and vandals like david cameron and Boris Johnson too seriously.Hypocrites of the highest order.

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

I think this is a more deep rooted problem with UK (and Irish) society, celeb culture and a criminal class that is accepted and even glorified in the media.

People have misinterpreted the behaviourist finding that reward > punishment for behaviour modification. To the extent that if the child misbehaves, give them a toy to shut them up (rather than a punishment). And instead of having the desired effect this of course positively reinforces the bad behaviour. This permeates all strata and age groups in society. Bad behaviour is unwittingly rewarded and incentivised in an attempt to make the person behave better. A parent neglects their child and the consequence is 'well they are not been given enough support'. What does that teach? To get more support you should neglect your child.

An example or two, if you'd be as good.....

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

An example or two, if you'd be as good.....

Well the mantra amongst professional classes of 'pay better to get better' seems to imply the reward should come before the behaviour that is to be rewarded. Here the higher pay is not the outcome of a job well done but it is instead assumed that the job will be done well because of the higher pay.

On the northside an off-road quad bike track was provided for kids to get them off the road on their quad and motorbikes, which they were flying around on illegally. They didn't show any good behaviour or responsibility to get this reward.

I'll come back with more examples when I have more time but the main point is that bad behaviour (like rioting) is interpreted as a cry out for greater facilities, involvement, respect etc. And then people (usually well-minded but confused liberals) often answer this 'crying out' by placating the demands or perceived needs of this cohort, thereby reinforcing their bad behaviour.

Mr.Micro

Nodin wrote: »

Every now and again a set of circumstances will emerge where large groups of young, (mostly but not exclusively) male, folk will do stupid things en masse. Thats about as deep as this goes for the most part.

I tend to agree. Opportunistic violence and rioting. In effect it stopped after 3 nights and probably would have stopped sooner if the Police had done something rather than doing nothing. Cameron and his pet sheep Clegg tend to alienate people anyway and to me the former has to be the most vacuous leader that the UK has had in years.

Dob74

Laminations wrote: »

I think this is a more deep rooted problem with UK (and Irish) society, celeb culture and a criminal class that is accepted and even glorified in the media.

People have misinterpreted the behaviourist finding that reward > punishment for behaviour modification. To the extent that if the child misbehaves, give them a toy to shut them up (rather than a punishment). And instead of having the desired effect this of course positively reinforces the bad behaviour. This permeates all strata and age groups in society. Bad behaviour is unwittingly rewarded and incentivised in an attempt to make the person behave better. A parent neglects their child and the consequence is 'well they are not been given enough support'. What does that teach? To get more support you should neglect your child.

We have a massive criminal class but they aren't wearing hoodies. They are wearing suits. I am digusted at our joke of a legal system not punishing obvious breches in the law.
Scambags will be scambags if you allow them get away with it. Weather you wear a hoody or a suit.

Laminations

Dob74 wrote: »

We have a massive criminal class but they aren't wearing hoodies. They are wearing suits. I am digusted at our joke of a legal system not punishing obvious breches in the law.
Scambags will be scambags if you allow them get away with it. Weather you wear a hoody or a suit.

No disagreement here. But we didn't see a rush for self-analysis and a questioning of 'what makes a banker greedy' and claims that society created these people like we are seeing now that people are calling for consequences for the rioting. Reality is justice is not dine at either end of the spectrum. No proper accountability. The criminal class is not synonymous with working class or even welfare class. Criminals can be found at every level and derive their power through the apathy of the rest of society and the reluctance to properly deal with crime rather than discuss the causes and blame ourselves.

goalscoringhero

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You imply that those acts were committed predominantly by people on the dole.
Didn't you get the memo? This wasn't (only) about poverty, as we can see in the first couple of sentences handed out: Teachers, students, etc...

This is about thuggery from people who take what they can get until they are stopped.

There was a pretty sharp article in the Telegraph (surprisingly!) about this.