Etiquette on drafting

nitrogen

I think I've seen this discussed here before, but doesn't every topic pop up from time to time.

I was doing laps around Regents park and a rider slowly passed me so it didn't take much effort to draft. So I stayed in his slipsteam, and he gave me a stop hand signal with the open palm behind him (I'm assuming he wanted me to slow down). So I did. But when I eventually caught him again after giving him at least 100m, he starts to look back in his world champion jersey.

But should I have slowed down? Surely if someone is going to pass someone at a similar speed, they can't be getting pissed for having someone riding in their slipstream. Sure if both people take turns riding in the front, what's the harm - they might even talk to each other.

Sorry this has kind of turned into a little rant about snobby freds.

Raam

My advice: if you don't know the person, ask them before drafting. Or else drop them.
Unless it's a race or organised event, then screw em!

Beasty

nitrogen wrote: »

he starts to look back in his world champion jersey.

Don't think GB has a current road world champion. The guy you were drafting may well have been Norwegian, and Norway has a very different set of drafting etiquette rules than the UK;)

recentlybigl

hi guys, recently started competitively cycling. bit of a pleb still and was puzzled. is there a disadvantage to the cyclist infront of the man behind drafting?

nitrogen

Raam wrote: »

My advice: if you don't know the person, ask them before drafting. Or else drop them.
Unless it's a race or organised event, then screw em!

You're right, suppose I could ask if they mind me joining.

Raam

recentlybigl wrote: »

hi guys, recently started competitively cycling. bit of a pleb still and was puzzled. is there a disadvantage to the cyclist infront of the man behind drafting?

No, it actually helps the person in front.

seamus

recentlybigl wrote: »

is there a disadvantage to the cyclist infront of the man behind drafting?

Nope, apparently there's a slight advantage to the guy in front. Perhaps a reduction in drag helps or something.

Beasty

recentlybigl wrote: »

hi guys, recently started competitively cycling. bit of a pleb still and was puzzled. is there a disadvantage to the cyclist infront of the man behind drafting?

Yep - when he has to slam on the brakes and someone comes crashing into the back of him, writing off his wheel (or worse!)

these threads are better suited to Fridays imo

Beasty

seamus wrote: »

Nope, apparently there's a slight advantage to the guy in front. Perhaps a reduction in drag helps or something.

I suspect it helps create a bit of an "air pocket" that, to some extent, moves along with the group (whether it be 2 riders or a full peleton)

Raam

I read that the rider at the back prevents the air from closing in around the front rider, so it won't slow him down as much, or something.

seamus

The same effect has been shown with trucks in convoy, the lead truck gets an improvement in fuel efficiency along with the rest of the group. The wikipedia page on drag is full of complex language, but from what I understand one component of drag acts behind the moving object, pulling it backwards, kind of, as the air rushes in to fill the vaccuum behind it.

As Raam says, with a close-following rider, this doesn't happen, so the lead rider gets a small boost in performance. It also means that in any pelton, the lead and rear riders are the ones working the hardest.
Though the bulk of the drag is still felt through air resistance, the rear rider probably doesn't even feel the extra work he has to do.

kennyb3

Some people just dont like to be drafted at all so that was prob your mans issue. Some people dont mind being drafted, some do simple as really.

I think the key is just to let the person know you are there (not an issue here as he knew). It's a pet hate of mine when im commuting into work and trying to take it handy and someone sneaks onto my wheel. Once i know they are there i ve no issue but its the not knowing in case you ve to jam on.

Lumen

Beasty wrote: »

Yep - when he has to slam on the brakes and someone comes crashing into the back of him, writing off his wheel (or worse!)

I've had someone crash into the back of me on a commute. He came off, broke his thumb and bled profusely. I stayed upright, and my rear wheel wasn't even de-trued.

07Lapierre

recentlybigl wrote: »

hi guys, recently started competitively cycling. bit of a pleb still and was puzzled. is there a disadvantage to the cyclist infront of the man behind drafting?

In a race situation, there is a disadvantage. The rider in the front is assisting the rider who is drafting by "towing" him along. As you approach the finish line, the "drafter" has the advantage and will most likely beat the rider in the front in a sprint.

Dermot Illogical

Why should you slow down? If he's going to pass you and pull into the space in front of you, what does he expect? That you'll change your pace so as not to annoy him?
It's different if you catch up and start drafting off someone imho.

Generally I don't like to pass someone unless I'm sure I'll be leaving them behind. I've made the mistake in the past of going to the front and finding out that it wasn't as easy as I thought it might be..

c0rk3r

You should of cycled right up to him, shoulder to shoulder and said "Whats the problem champ?"

tomasrojo

I've been drafted twice this year. Not sure why, as I don't cycle particularly quickly.

In the context of commuting, surely it's indistinguishable from tailgating, which causes accidents?

Raam

tomasrojo wrote: »

In the context of commuting, surely it's indistinguishable from tailgating, which causes accidents?

Yeah it's a bit dodgy if you draft someone who isn't used to it or who isn't aware that you are there.

Kav0777

How far back do you have to be for it not to be drafting?

Raam

Kav0777 wrote: »

How far back do you have to be for it not to be drafting?

You mean you are getting dropped?

Kav0777

well, more often than not.. yes

I was more thinking, recently i was passed but I increased my pace and stayed about 15- 20 feet off. I was effectively being paced without getting a tow.. still got a dirty look when stopped at lights.

Raam

Kav0777 wrote: »

well, more often than not.. yes

I was more thinking, recently i was passed but I increased my pace and stayed about 15- 20 feet off. I was effectively being paced without getting a tow.. still got a dirty look when stopped at lights.

They are just upset because they couldn't drop you more.

Ryaner

RT66 wrote: »

It's different if you catch up and start drafting off someone imho.

I'll admit that I do this occasionally of late. Although I am a bit injured.

I think once you draft safely, it is ok. If you aren't going to fast then say something too. Being friendly is always good.

galwaycyclist

tomasrojo wrote: »

I've been drafted twice this year. Not sure why, as I don't cycle particularly quickly.

In the context of commuting, surely it's indistinguishable from tailgating, which causes accidents?

Yep its another one of those illegal things that some cyclists do. You are effectively travelling at a speed that will not allow you to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear.

ThisRegard

Oh man, you are a king amongst trolls.

galwaycyclist

ThisRegard wrote: »

Oh man, you are a king amongst trolls.

Har I thought that would be the reaction! But if you were in a car and someone else in a car did that to you it would be considered dangerous driving. In a race or training situation you are doing it with the consent of the other participants, as part of a gentlemans agreement as it were, but in the letter of the law.....

oflahero

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Har I thought that would be the reaction! But if you were in a car and someone else in a car did that to you it would be considered dangerous driving. In a race or training situation you are doing it with the consent of the other participants, as part of a gentlemans agreement as it were, but in the letter of the law.....

I propose that all your posts start and end with a sonorous 'BONNNNNGGGGGGGG.....', evoking the relentless hoovering up of any remnants of joy from the activity of cycling.

I do salute your admirable dedication to the pursuit of exactitude, however...

galwaycyclist

oflahero wrote: »

I propose that all your posts start and end with a sonorous 'BONNNNNGGGGGGGG.....', evoking the relentless hoovering up of any remnants of joy from the activity of cycling.

I do salute your admirable dedication to the pursuit of exactitude, however...

Joy for who? Joy for me? Or joy for the guy stuck up my rear end? Someone tailgates me either in a car or on a bike my tactic is to slow to the point where I am reasonably certain that they will be able to stop in the distance that is clear.

This usually happens when I am already in the primary (cycling) position - such as on a roundabout.

Although for some reason I've never come accross a cyclist dumb enough to try it.

Signal_ rabbit

Lumen wrote: »

I've had someone crash into the back of me on a commute. He came off, broke his thumb and bled profusely. I stayed upright, and my rear wheel wasn't even de-trued.

Is 'de-trued' a technical term?

Keep_Her_Lit

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yep its another one of those illegal things that some cyclists do. You are effectively travelling at a speed that will not allow you to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear.

Is it also illegal to move your head slightly to one side so that you can see past the cyclist in front?

galwaycyclist

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

Is it also illegal to move your head slightly to one side so that you can see past the cyclist in front?

Dunno you should probably ask your lawyer. The thought occurs though that if you have to move your head so as to see in front of you there is clearly something seriously wrong with your road position.

Raam

Wow, the lawyers have already been called in. Time to take my leave of this thread. Ta-raa folks, see yis in some other thread.

ThisRegard

What's your stance on commuter racing for those of us without racing licences, is it a legal minefield or purely a matter for the UCI ?

Dermot Illogical

The party of the first part shall be known in this contract as the party of the first part...

Captain Havoc

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yep its another one of those illegal things that some cyclists do. You are effectively travelling at a speed that will not allow you to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear.

Can you show us the bit of law that says this?

Vizzy

Beasty wrote: »

I suspect it helps create a bit of an "air pocket" that, to some extent, moves along with the group (whether it be 2 riders or a full peleton)

Raam wrote: »

I read that the rider at the back prevents the air from closing in around the front rider, so it won't slow him down as much, or something.

seamus wrote: »

The same effect has been shown with trucks in convoy, the lead truck gets an improvement in fuel efficiency along with the rest of the group. The wikipedia page on drag is full of complex language, but from what I understand one component of drag acts behind the moving object, pulling it backwards, kind of, as the air rushes in to fill the vaccuum behind it.

I've been cycling for years and I never realised this.

Thanks for the help guys,I'll make sure that if I meet you on the road that I do not pass you as I'm sure you would be very upset if I took away any advantage you may have by taking the prime position at the front of the train.
Thanks again

nitrogen

Kav0777 wrote: »

well, more often than not.. yes

I was more thinking, recently i was passed but I increased my pace and stayed about 15- 20 feet off. I was effectively being paced without getting a tow.. still got a dirty look when stopped at lights.

What an ass.

Guybrush T

I don't mind being drafted at all, but an acknowledgement of the benefit you are getting is nice, as is making an effort to do a turn on the front, even if it's only a token 30s or so.

Kav0777

nitrogen wrote: »

What an ass.

Me or him ??



Childish giggle of the day:

Or joy for the guy stuck up my rear end?

Keep_Her_Lit

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Dunno you should probably ask your lawyer.

I don’t have one. Is that illegal too? Now I’d like an impartial answer from you, please. Because if I go and ask a lawyer whether it’s illegal not to have a lawyer … well, that wouldn’t really be fair on the poor lawyer, would it?

I presume you ride a tandem, to guarantee the availability of real-time legal advice at all times. Does your lawyer sit in front or behind? If he sits behind, is he allowed [legally, I mean] to move his head to one side to see in front of you?

The thought occurs though that if you have to move your head so as to see in front of you there is clearly something seriously wrong with your road position.

So my road position is quite possibly both illegal and seriously wrong – possibly even immoral. I am a bad cyclist. A fitful, restless night lies ahead, deservedly so it would seem.

Night, night! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ………….

galwaycyclist

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Can you show us the bit of law that says this?

General obligation regarding speed

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a7

7. A vehicle shall not be driven at a speed exceeding that which will enable its driver to bring it to a halt within the distance which the driver can see to be clear.

As I pointed out if you're doing it as part of a sport with the consent of the other participants its probably going to be viewed differently. Rugby tackle someone on the pitch and it's "sport" do it to a total stranger on the street and its common assault.

nitrogen

Kav0777 wrote: »

Me or him ??

Him.

CramCycle

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Rugby tackle someone on the pitch and it's "sport" do it to a total stranger on the street and its common assault.

I think by catching the ball that I threw at the random guy, said random guy was entering (and understood) a non verbal agreement to play a full contact sport with me in a public place. Now if it was a high tackle thats a whole different issue, have to get the video referee CCTV to make a call for the referee Gardai.

tomasrojo

The Guardian Bike Blog addresses this issue today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/25/cycling-commuter-drafting-etiquette

in London a reasonable minority of fellow commuters seem to view being drafted in much the same way as if you'd walked into their home and helped yourself from their fridge.

Dr.Millah

Had a fella draft me 6 or 7 weeks ago from merchants quay to the lucan exit on the N4.It was a windy day after a long days work and I was on my old 80`s tank of a bike. This guy sat on my wheel the whole way back (even the two times i slowed to a crawl to blow my nose as my hayfever was acting up) I went left at the top of the exit ramp to lucan and he continued in the leixlip direction, No thanks, hi, bye or anything. Was not a bit happy to say the least.

zil

Slightly related question, what's the etiquette for dropping off the front of a pace line after taking your turn. Do you pull out to the right towards the centre of the road or do you slow down and stay on the verge of the road and let the people behind pass you out.

Lumen

Reverse for Irish roads?

buffalo

Depends where the wind is coming from - you should try to fall back on the leeward side of the pace line, so you're sheltered while recovering.

doozerie

I've posted before about someone hugging my wheel while commuting and, when I braked hard when a car pulled out of its lane into the bus lane in front of me, the guy behind used me as a brake by sticking his hand on my back and shoving me into a parked van (before himself almost toppling over into the lane of cars to our right). This guy was a prime example of someone who has no clue how to ride close to a rider in front. I had seen the possibility of the car in front pulling out and was prepared for it and I made sure I had plenty of time and space to stop. The guy behind me seemed to have been oblivious to everything ahead of me, I can only assume he was just looking at my rear wheel. That made him a danger to himself and to me - despite galwaycyclist being jumped on for phrasing it a bit differently, it really is the case that someone sticking to your rear wheel is a potential hazard.

If riding in a group (club) or a race then you expect the riders around you to have at least some common sense and to know that they should be watching ahead of the rider(s) in front of them for potential hazards. Those that don't have such common sense to start with learn it very quickly with the "encouragement" of those around them. If you've not ridden with a bunch of cyclists before, then the time and place to start practicing is not with a random person that you see on the road ahead, and particularly without their knowledge or assent. Plus, of course, there are a lot of people who commute by bike who seem completely unencumbered by the weight of any common sense whatsoever and you'd neither want to be right in front of them nor right behind them if you value your personal safety.

cdaly_

Lumen wrote: »

Reverse for Irish roads?

I've noticed on any outings where I've fallen into a single pace line that nobody ever seems to come off the front and fall back. The expectation seems to be that the guy at the back should overtake to the front instead. This of course now means that you're at the front putting in all the work and wondering when the fecker at the back is going to take his/her turn...

studiorat

I had the humiliation of being drafted by a jogger on my final hill last night. He was running along the double yellow when I passed him, fcuker then used me to pace himself on the last couple of hundred meters.

I'm biting the handlebars and all I can hear is the pat pat pat of his runners behind me, spitting and doing that nose blowing thing they do. I nearly burst a blood vessel trying to loose him, which I did eventually. When I turn off the main road I've a really steep climb so I usually try and ease off before taking the right turn. Not this time, b@stard...