Denver Broncos Thread

D3PO

Syferus wrote: »

If this is Tebow in a 'terribly unfair situation', I'd fear for critics sanity in a good situation. He's dealing, and dealing well.

seriously read the fricking post will you how hes dealing with it has no bearing on the situation he finds himself in.

there are a handful of people in this thread posting objectively acknowledging others points even if they disagree and in some cases agreeing with some points the other side are making and responding in a rational constructive way to add to the debate.

and then theres you. :rolleyes:

Concannon7

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I actually think Tebowmania will be the reason he doesn't succeed as an nfl QB. I feel sorry for him but he really hasn't helped his own case either.

But why? I mean he hasn't come out and promised he would do anything such as bring Denver to the playoffs nor does he force his faith on anyone else. All this interest in Tebow is not of his own doing and not because of anything he has done purposely.

Chucky the tree

Galway_mad_bhoy wrote: »

But why? I mean he hasn't come out and promised he would do anything such as bring Denver to the playoffs nor does he force his faith on anyone else. All this interest in Tebow is not of his own doing and not because of anything he has done purposely.

I mean when the QB controversey came about he should have stepped up and said he wasn't ready and then sat back and even asked to be put behind Brady. I understand it's a horrible position for him and being such of the character he is I'm sure getting out on the field and playing is what he wants to do but at the end of the day it's just going to hinder his long term development as a QB.

Syferus

D3PO wrote: »

seriously read the fricking post will you how hes dealing with it has no bearing on the situation he finds himself in.

there are a handful of people in this thread posting objectively acknowledging others points even if they disagree and in some cases agreeing with some points the other side are making and responding in a rational constructive way to add to the debate.

and then theres you. :rolleyes:

If you really think I've not acknowledged Tebow has plenty of faults then it's not me who hasn't been reading things properly

vinny chase

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I mean when the QB controversey came about he should have stepped up and said he wasn't ready and then sat back and even asked to be put behind Brady. I understand it's a horrible position for him and being such of the character he is I'm sure getting out on the field and playing is what he wants to do but at the end of the day it's just going to hinder his long term development as a QB.

That's absolutely ludicrous in my opinion.

He'd be absolutely derided (rightly so) if the team sought to turn to him (a 1st Round Draft Pick) and he turned around and said; "No, I'm not ready. Why not give Brady Quinn the job instead? He could do with it!".

Ultimately, he'll improve from his exposure to the speed of the NFL defenses. I think to be an elite sportsman first and foremost you have to have absolute confidence in your own abilities; even when everyone around you is telling you otherwise. I wouldn't say it's even remotely in Tebow's character (or almost any other NFL QB imo) to say; "No, I don't want the opportunity because I don't think I'm good enough".

Chucky the tree

vinny chase wrote: »

That's absolutely ludicrous in my opinion.

He'd be absolutely derided (rightly so) if the team sought to turn to him (a 1st Round Draft Pick) and he turned around and said; "No, I'm not ready. Why not give Brady Quinn the job instead? He could do with it!".

Ultimately, he'll improve from his exposure to the speed of the NFL defenses. I think to be an elite sportsman first and foremost you have to have absolute confidence in your own abilities; even when everyone around you is telling you otherwise. I wouldn't say it's even remotely in Tebow's character (or almost any other NFL QB imo) to say; "No, I don't want the opportunity because I don't think I'm good enough".

The Broncos had Quinn as 2nd on the depth chart sure it's not really that crazy. I don't think publically he should have said it, but behind the scenes he easily could have. Also, it's not his fault McDaniels reached terribly on him but due to his contract he's probably not in a position to say no but Fox, Elway et all would have rather put tebow on the bench then play him so I don't think it would have been that big of a deal.

If Tebow had absolute confidence in his own abilities he wouldn't have put so much work and effort into trying to completely change his footwork, mechanics, throwing motion etc etc. To be a elite athlete you also have to know what your limitations and weaknesses are aswell. However because of his character I wouldn't ever expect him to say this and I think it will be his down fall.

vinny chase

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The Broncos had Quinn as 2nd on the depth chart sure it's not really that crazy. I don't think publically he should have said it, but behind the scenes he easily could have. Also, it's not his fault McDaniels reached terribly on him but due to his contract he's probably not in a position to say no but Fox, Elway et all would have rather put tebow on the bench then play him so I don't think it would have been that big of a deal.

If Tebow had absolute confidence in his own abilities he wouldn't have put so much work and effort into trying to completely change his footwork, mechanics, throwing motion etc etc. To be a elite athlete you also have to know what your limitations and weaknesses are aswell. However because of his character I wouldn't ever expect him to say this and I think it will be his down fall.

I'm not denying his limitations, and I imagine he's quite well aware of his own too. But, fundamentally, I think people who are (to use the Americanism:) winners, will always back themselves.

Once again; he's probably a better player now than he was 6 weeks ago because of the exposure he's had. The team haven't suffered because he's delivering wins, he's inspiring the players around him and he seems to uniting his team and the fans. That can't be a bad thing.

Chucky the tree

vinny chase wrote: »

I'm not denying his limitations, and I imagine he's quite well aware of his own too. But, fundamentally, I think people who are (to use the Americanism:) winners, will always back themselves.

Once again; he's probably a better player now than he was 6 weeks ago because of the exposure he's had. The team haven't suffered because he's delivering wins, he's inspiring the players around him and he seems to uniting his team and the fans. That can't be a bad thing.

I've seen little to think he's a better player, mechanics are still poor and so is his accuracy. He's probably adjusted a bit better to the speed but that's it. I suppose winners will always back themselves(publically anyway). It's a pitty he didn't land himself in a situation like Rodgers and Brady.

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I've seen little to think he's a better player, mechanics are still poor and so is his accuracy. He's probably adjusted a bit better to the speed but that's it. I suppose winners will always back themselves(publically anyway). It's a pitty he didn't land himself in a situation like Rodgers and Brady.

Do you believe his intangibles which I spoke about many times in the past are now showing up. His leadership, the way he inspires others. Do you not think that these things are the reason that everybody in Denver is playing to their very best right now? I'm sure you've read what his teammates have said about him?

vetinari

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I mean when the QB controversey came about he should have stepped up and said he wasn't ready and then sat back and even asked to be put behind Brady. I understand it's a horrible position for him and being such of the character he is I'm sure getting out on the field and playing is what he wants to do but at the end of the day it's just going to hinder his long term development as a QB.

I know syferus covered this, but this is really quite an astonishing comment. No professional sports player in ANY profession tells his coach that he should pick someone else! If he did, he shouldn't be on the team.

To me, there's been definite improvement in Tebow over the last 6 weeks. In the Chargers game, he looked to stay in the pocket a lot more on pass attempts and had some pretty good throws. Don't forget that the Broncos receiving corps is minus their leading player from last year. He still has a long way to go as a passer but is definitely improving.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you believe his intangibles which I spoke about many times in the past are now showing up. His leadership, the way he inspires others. Do you not think that these things are the reason that everybody in Denver is playing to their very best right now? I'm sure you've read what his teammates have said about him?

No not really to be honest.

vetinari wrote: »

I know syferus covered this, but this is really quite an astonishing comment. No professional sports player in ANY profession tells his coach that he should pick someone else! If he did, he shouldn't be on the team.

To me, there's been definite improvement in Tebow over the last 6 weeks. In the Chargers game, he looked to stay in the pocket a lot more on pass attempts and had some pretty good throws. Don't forget that the Broncos receiving corps is minus their leading player from last year. He still has a long way to go as a passer but is definitely improving.

You are right, not sure it should rule somebody out of being picked. If Matt flynn felt he's a better QB then Aaron Rodgers and should be picked ahead him then I'd question his sanity. Funny that his great trait will end up most likely being his downfall. I didn't see all of the Chargers game but from what I heard they had zero passing rushing ability. On one of the plays he had was standing back there for about ten seconds(still took the ball down and ran mind you).

UnitedIrishman

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The Broncos had Quinn as 2nd on the depth chart sure it's not really that crazy. I don't think publically he should have said it, but behind the scenes he easily could have. Also, it's not his fault McDaniels reached terribly on him but due to his contract he's probably not in a position to say no but Fox, Elway et all would have rather put tebow on the bench then play him so I don't think it would have been that big of a deal.

No athlete is going to do that whether amateur or pro. If someone I coached came up to me when I told them they were starting and said 'you know what, why don't you go with Brady on this one - he's better than I am right now' - I'd be thinking 'bottler' not 'ah fair play Timmy, we might just do that'. And any pro athlete is going to have the confidence and the courage to give it a shot.

If Fox and co. are giving him an opportunity, it's because they think he's the best possible option right now - not because he's the last resort. I don't think they would rather bench him - all they care about is wins and they'd likely have benched him if he had lost a good few games by now. But right now, he's part of a winning team.

I'm neither a Tebow lover or hater, I didn't watch the kid in college so I don't know enough about him bar the fact he seems like a good guy, works hard and is down with Jesus. From reading some of the people on here and other experts from blogs etc, it seems he needs major works on his technique and mechanics but I'm sure he can vastly improve this over time. There's no doubt that if Fox and Elway turned around to him and said 'you have to run through ten brick walls in order to be starter next year' he'd do eleven. So I don't doubt he's going to work hard in the off-season to do so.

And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But give me 10 Tim Tebow's over a JaMarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf any day of the week. He's doing the max with the talent he has right now and that should be commended. It's not like he's coasting by on a huge contract and being a 'superstar'. He's grafted to get where he is, he's not promising anything and right now the team he's a part of is getting it done. And yet he gets more stick or is written off more than most QB's. Just because the guy is unorthodox doesn't mean he should be rubbished. Things change.

Chucky the tree

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

No athlete is going to do that whether amateur or pro. If someone I coached came up to me when I told them they were starting and said 'you know what, why don't you go with Brady on this one - he's better than I am right now' - I'd be thinking 'bottler' not 'ah fair play Timmy, we might just do that'. And any pro athlete is going to have the confidence and the courage to give it a shot.

If Fox and co. are giving him an opportunity, it's because they think he's the best possible option right now - not because he's the last resort. I don't think they would rather bench him - all they care about is wins and they'd likely have benched him if he had lost a good few games by now. But right now, he's part of a winning team.
.

I wouldn't think bottler Hard to say what I'd think though because I suppose I'd never put someone so raw in that kind of position. To be honest I think Elway and co only did it because they wanted to shut the Denver fans up by watching him fail, hasn't worked out for him though.

tallaghtoutlaws

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

No athlete is going to do that whether amateur or pro. If someone I coached came up to me when I told them they were starting and said 'you know what, why don't you go with Brady on this one - he's better than I am right now' - I'd be thinking 'bottler' not 'ah fair play Timmy, we might just do that'. And any pro athlete is going to have the confidence and the courage to give it a shot.

Whatever about Pro it happens at high school level. Now for the most part a good coach will tell the player to cop on grow a pair and not give up(In a good way of course) but it does happen. But when it comes to College and Pros it would never happen becuase those guys have their eye on the prize, College players have their eye on scouts in the stand and NFL guys have their eye on bonus money.

Morrisseeee

"eagle eye
Do you believe his intangibles which I spoke about many times in the past are now showing up. His leadership, the way he inspires others. Do you not think that these things are the reason that everybody in Denver is playing to their very best right now? I'm sure you've read what his teammates have said about him?"
Chucky the tree
No not really to be honest.

I really find this hard to believe, bizare statement/denial

I'll quote the NFL commentator: "Teboooow, he's got the 1st down, he's got the touchdown, he's got..............IT" :pac:

Here's a fun take on the whole situation/enigma :
....copy & pasted from elsewhere

He cannot fly. He cannot see through walls. He cannot talk to the animals, not even cats. He's never picked up an automobile and tossed it across the road. He's failed to publish poetry in Russian. He can't explain Ryan Reynolds.

These are just a few of the many things Tim Tebow can't do.

Every day we are reminded of more things Tim Tebow can't do. He cannot throw a proper pass. He cannot stand still in the pocket. He can't run a conventional offense. He runs, but he doesn't run gracefully. He runs upright and frantic. He runs like he's stealing a toaster from the mall.

He's a cavalcade of failures. Why the Denver Broncos give him a paycheck, nobody knows.

Because Tim Tebow never lets you relax. He never puts a football game away in the first quarter. He forces you to watch the whole thing, with commercials and no fast-forwards. It's never pretty.

He doesn't put up Tom Brady's numbers. He doesn't put up Tom Brokaw's numbers. He's not impressing Broncos legend John Elway. John Elway acts as if he'd let the Broncos bus abandon Tim Tebow at a rest stop.

"Oh, where's Tim?" John Elway would say forty miles down the road. "Hmmm, that's too bad."

You can see why Elway's unconvinced. Tim Tebow can't do it the normal way. Tim Tebow can't get through an interview without mentioning his faith. Or giving credit to his teammates. Tim Tebow never sounds full of Tim Tebow.

He doesn't even get mad when people say nasty things about him. When people say Tim Tebow needs to improve, Tim Tebow says he needs to improve. Who does that?

Nothing seems to rattle him. He smiles and doesn't sulk. When Tim Tebow is bummed, he doesn't pull down the blinds, blast the Fleetwood Mac and drink red wine out of a Mason jar, like everybody else does. He's a total weirdo.

Do you know what else Tim Tebow has never done?

Tim Tebow has not climbed all Seven Summits. He's never built an invisible jet or hosted the Country Music Awards. If he has solved the mystery of Loch Ness, or washed dishes at The French Laundry, it's never been written about. Tim Tebow's portrait does not hang in the Louvre. Sandra Bullock has never made a Tim Tebow movie. Tim Tebow has never made a Sandra Bullock movie.

Sure, Tim Tebow has been on the cover of Sports Illustrated, but has he been on the cover of Dwell or Bon Appetit? That's right: no. Loser!

Do you know that Tim Tebow has never hosted a late-night talk show in Denmark? That he's never been the CEO of The Gap? That he wasn't a serious candidate to be manager of the Red Sox? Tim Tebow has never won a professional motocross race. He's never even come in second in a professional motocross race. Tim Tebow did zero to solve the NBA lockout. Zilch.

Here is a small list of other things Tim Tebow has never won:

Wimbledon, a MacArthur "Genius" grant, "Project Runway," "The Price is Right," the Nathan's Famous hot dog eating contest, the Booker Prize or a Grammy for best spoken-word album.

That's embarrassing. Why do people care about him?

Yes, Tim Tebow beat the Miami Dolphins, the Oakland Raiders, the Kansas City Chiefs, the New York Jets and the Chargers of San Diego. But Tim Tebow has not beaten the Detroit Lions. Or the Detroit Pistons. Or the Detroit Red Wings. Or Manny Pacquiao. Or Dara Torres. Or Real Madrid. Or Gary Kasparov.

Tim Tebow doesn't fight the law, but if he did, the law would surely win. Okay, maybe not.

Despite all of these issues, people still like Tim Tebow, which is mystifying. It's as if they can't recognize his flaws. They're blinded by hype. They're willfully ignorant. They want to believe in a myth.

One day they will see all of Tim Tebow's shortcomings. How he's never once sang O Canada at a Vancouver Canucks game. How he's never captured a live dinosaur. How he's too chicken to run for President.

Tim Tebow never, ever makes everybody happy. He can't really do anything besides win football games. Since when did anyone care about that?

bruschi

Morrisseeee wrote: »

I really find this hard to believe, bizare statement/denial

I'll quote the NFL commentator: "Teboooow, he's got the 1st down, he's got the touchdown, he's got..............IT" :pac:

Here's a fun take on the whole situation/enigma :
....copy & pasted from elsewhere

well in fairness, you are the one who said 'he is the sole reason that Denver are winning' so I'd take that with a bit of humour personally.

as for that article, I know its tongue in cheek and supposed to be funny, but bloody hell its absolutley terrible.

would disagree with chucky in that there is no way a player in the NFL is going to turn down the chance to be a starter. I'd agree it shouldnt have been put to him, but there is no way anyone would turn down that oppertunity. I dont think Elway was doing it in the hope that he would fail though. At the end of it all, if he did fail, it would be on Elways head.

the situation could work out for Denver in the long run though, as they dont need to be over 10 wins to be in with a shout for the division. The AFC west is still not firing well, and teams have a shout with .5 win ratios.

spiralism

bruschi wrote: »

well in fairness, you are the one who said 'he is the sole reason that Denver are winning' so I'd take that with a bit of humour personally.

as for that article, I know its tongue in cheek and supposed to be funny, but bloody hell its absolutley terrible.

would disagree with chucky in that there is no way a player in the NFL is going to turn down the chance to be a starter. I'd agree it shouldnt have been put to him, but there is no way anyone would turn down that oppertunity. I dont think Elway was doing it in the hope that he would fail though. At the end of it all, if he did fail, it would be on Elways head.

the situation could work out for Denver in the long run though, as they dont need to be over 10 wins to be in with a shout for the division. The AFC west is still not firing well, and teams have a shout with .5 win ratios.

It's going to the wire with Oakland anyways, their remaining games are:

@MIA
@GB
DET
@KC
SD

2 losses would be 10-6

We've got:

@MIN
CHI
NE
@BUF
KC

Winning out would have us 11-5. Thing is, if we lose just once and win the rest, 10-6 would put us into a tie with Oakland and we'd win it should Oakland lose to KC or SD. Loss at Miami would help too as a common opponent. Minimum for us should be winning at least 3 of those games, Minnesota this weekend sans AP, a Buffalo side in collapse mode and Kansas should be winnable. Not unrealistic to hope for a win against Hanie's Bears either though the Pats may be a bridge too far, even if we're Brady's dodgy team (we're the only one in the NFL he's got a losing record against and he's yet to win in Denver afaik).

As for Oakland, losing Rolando McClain could hurt them to no end in this run in, he's huge for their D

Morrisseeee

bruschi wrote:

well in fairness, you are the one who said 'he is the sole reason that Denver are winning' so I'd take that with a bit of humour personally

No, I said:

morrisseeee wrote:

I think even the most anti-Tebow fan would have to admit that he's been the sole reason for the team's turnaround

.......and he has, I didn't say he was the sole or only reason they were winning, any fool can see that it's been a team performance, but the whole thing turned-around when Tebow came in and 'ignited the fire', they've rallied around him.
I think most people on here (fans & sceptics) see him as he is, a great leader, great athlete, but a very different QB than the likes of Elway/Brady/Manning/Rodgers etc., and the arguments are mainly about whether he will make a decent starting QB or not, it's very much 'work in progress', but then there are those that don't believe that he's any good at all (and that's what I picked up from Chucky's post).

Looking at the run-in, we seem to have it a little easier (assuming no major injuries), the NE game is obviously the toughest (assuming Cutler is still out), and will expose all our weaknesses, but this is a good thing, we will learn from it................hopefully.

Chucky the tree

bruschi wrote: »

well in fairness, you are the one who said 'he is the sole reason that Denver are winning' so I'd take that with a bit of humour personally.

as for that article, I know its tongue in cheek and supposed to be funny, but bloody hell its absolutley terrible.

would disagree with chucky in that there is no way a player in the NFL is going to turn down the chance to be a starter. I'd agree it shouldnt have been put to him, but there is no way anyone would turn down that oppertunity. I dont think Elway was doing it in the hope that he would fail though. At the end of it all, if he did fail, it would be on Elways head.

the situation could work out for Denver in the long run though, as they dont need to be over 10 wins to be in with a shout for the division. The AFC west is still not firing well, and teams have a shout with .5 win ratios.

Season was done with when they had played Orton so Tebow failing would have made no difference. Elway has the job for the long haul no matter what Tebow would have done.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

No, I said:

.......and he has, I didn't say he was the sole or only reason they were winning, any fool can see that it's been a team performance, but the whole thing turned-around when Tebow came in and 'ignited the fire', they've rallied around him. I think most people on here (fans & sceptics) see him as he is, a great leader, great athlete, but a very different QB than the likes of Elway/Brady/Manning/Rodgers etc., and the arguments are mainly about whether he will make a decent starting QB or not, it's very much 'work in progress', but then there are those that don't believe that he's any good at all (and that's what I picked up from Chucky's post).

Looking at the run-in, we seem to have it a little easier (assuming no major injuries), the NE game is obviously the toughest (assuming Cutler is still out), and will expose all our weaknesses, but this is a good thing, we will learn from it................hopefully.

The change in offensive systems is what has really helped the broncos which happened with the introduction of Tebow. I don't think it's Tebows inspirational talks/motivation ability being the main factor for the Broncos winning.

vetinari

Just so I understand this Chucky the Tree, if they had put in Brady Quinn and adapted the same kind of offence, you think the Broncos would have turned around to the same degree that they have with Tebow?

Syferus

If the Broncos replace Tebow at some point next year and fall on their face I guarantee you Elway won't be there for the long haul. He could have won a dozen Superbowls for them and even he would be tainted if this turned into a management mess.

I don't think he's coped very well with his job anyways, and that extends far beyond Tebow. He has as much to prove in his job as Tebow does in his at this point.

davyjose

Interesting article explaining TT's overall effectiveness as a QB. Make of it what you will...

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Tim-Tebow-Denver-Broncos-first-class-quarterback-numbers-lie-120111

Chucky the tree

vetinari wrote: »

Just so I understand this Chucky the Tree, if they had put in Brady Quinn and adapted the same kind of offence, you think the Broncos would have turned around to the same degree that they have with Tebow?

Probably not because he's a poor passer. I'm not saying they would have won as many but I'd love to know how they would have done if the asked Orton to pass the ball less then 20 times and ran it all the other time or ask tebow to pass the ball over 30 times a game. Broncos got gashed with on defense against Lions and Raiders, maybe Tebow just took an day off from his inspirational speeches.

Stev_o

Tbh if Tebow was dropped next year for some reason I think the Jets would pick him up would be a perfect fit.

tallaghtoutlaws

Stev_o wrote: »

Tbh if Tebow was dropped next year for some reason I think the Jets would pick him up would be a perfect fit.

And take the limelight away from Rex Ryan? Not a chance.

Syferus

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

And take the limelight away from Rex Ryan? Not a chance.

As opposed to the low-profile GQ cover model/coach fighting QB they have right now, right? :pac:

tallaghtoutlaws

Syferus wrote: »

As opposed to the low-profile GQ cover model/coach fighting QB they have right now, right? :pac:

Good to see you missed the point. :rolleyes: Mark Sanchez could do a million magazine covers and no one would give a f*ck. Rex Ryan is an attention seeking pr1ck. Timmy Tebow moves into town and the limelight comes right off the attention whore and moves on to little timmy.

Syferus

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Good to see you missed the point. :rolleyes: Mark Sanchez could do a million magazine covers and no one would give a f*ck. Rex Ryan is an attention seeking pr1ck. Timmy Tebow moves into town and the limelight comes right off the attention whore and moves on to little timmy.

Quit being more hostile than CJ2K pre-contract, bro!

tallaghtoutlaws

Syferus wrote: »

Quit being more hostile than CJ2K pre-contract, bro!

hahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahaha........ No and don't call me bro.

Syferus

And now they lead the division. Wow.